Well, looking at the map, I must have been in a pretty good mood when I made it. ;)

Put lots of time away for this one - its a large map.

Well, seems to be the babylionans according to the colors!I hope so... because scientific and religious are the best trait for me. I hope the difficulty level will not be too hard...
Very good starting Bonus near a river a a Wheat !
Ainwood seams to be in a great mood ! ;)
LeSphinx

Well, seems to be the babylionans according to the colors!I hope so...


I'm not too sure about that. Ainwood has been known to change the color of the civs, when showing us the starting location...

I'll wait until we have some more info, before deciding on my first moves.
Right now we only know the start and that it's a large map.... Not enough for a good discussion on opening moves, IMHO. But I'm patient. ;)

Worker nw. If the worker discovers nothing special: settler ne, else settler n. Can't see any alternative.

Darkness, I agree with you. As we do not have more info, I can not plan my first move!

Maybe, Ainwood, can you tell us if you have modified the colour of the settler ?

LeSphinx

I think we are Maya. In any case, I am pretty sure we are Agricultural. I'll try to explain why:

- Up until now, in the COTM's, we have been three of the seven new C3C civs: Hittities, Netherlands and Byzantines. Judging from this, I believe we will walk through all of them up until COTM7. This leaves us with either Portugal, Sumeria, Inca or Maya.

- The last two COTM's have been with a Seafaring civ. I would be surprised to have three Seafaring games in a row. Also, Seafaring civs always start by the coast, so unless Ainwood has modded the start position, we can rule out Portugal. So we are either Inca, Maya or Sumeria. Note that all of those are Agricultural civs.

- There is no scout showing in the screenshot, so unless Ainwood as modded it again (it has happened before), we can rule out Inca.

- The Sumerians are Scientific, which Byzantines were in COTM3. The Maya, on the other hand, are Indsustrious, and we have never been an Industrous civ in COTM. Also, the Mayan UU has the "enslave" ability, which we have not had a chance to try yet. This would be a good time. Therefore, I am putting my money on Maya.

Disclaimer: All of the above could be total bs. :p

-- Roland

Somebody is having a bad conscience *hehe* the starting location looks great (for now).
I will also wait before I can say what how I will move...

Well, I think this is one game where nobody will want to settle in place. ;)

I haven't done any fog-gazing, but I am betting that we will have something interesting to the west that will make us choose between the river and it. I think the worker should go to the wheat. Otherwise, either of river grasslands look good.

I don't think I've ever played a GOTM on anything other than a standard map. What can we expect in terms of number of opponents, etc?

No matter if we are Agricultural or not, I will definately found my capitol by the river. Also, I will want to keep the wheat inside the city radius (after expansion), which rules out moving E (the defense-bonus is of no use, since I am not planning on my capitol to be attacked in this game ;) ). This leaves moving N or NE. I will probably want to cram in at least three core cities on the river, with the capitol in the middle. It looks like the river continues a fair bit north, while it may well end in a mountain a tile or two to the south. This leaves founding the capitol 1 tile N as the most likely option for me. But I will send my worker N first to have a look, even though that will waste a worker turn.

-- Roland

- Up until now, in the COTM's, we have been three of the seven new C3C civs: Hittities, Netherlands and Byzantines. Judging from this, I believe we will walk through all of them up until COTM7. This leaves us with either Portugal, Sumeria, Inca or Maya

- The last two COTM's have been with a Seafaring civ. I would be surprised to have three Seafaring games in a row. Also, Seafaring civs always start by the coast, so unless Ainwood has modded the start position, we can rule out Portugal. So we are either Inca, Maya or Sumeria. Note that all of those are Agricultural civs.

- There is no scout showing in the screenshot, so unless Ainwood as modded it again (it has happened before), we can rule out Inca.

- The Sumerians are Scientific, which Byzantines were in COTM3. The Maya, on the other hand, are Indsustrious, and we have never been an Industrous civ in COTM. Also, the Mayan UU has the "enslave" abaility, which we havn't had a chance to try yet. This would be a good time. Therefore, I am putting my money on Maya.

Disclaimer: All of the above could be total bs. :p

-- Roland
Well reasoned. It makes total sense. Although, I wouldn't totally rule out the Summerians. But the Mayan do seem more interesting.

Roland Ehnström , I like this kind of analyses.
Maya, you say: what does the "enslave" ability means ?
LeSphinx

Enslave - the Javelin Thrower (Maya's UU), has a chance to enslave an enemy unit every time it wins a battle. I believe this chance is 1/3. The enemy unit in this case is replaced with a slave worker, exactly the same sort of slave worker you would recieve for capturing an enemy worker.

This gives Maya a massive advantage, since early on the game, a large number of wins with the JavThrower can result in more unpaid workers than your civilisation actually needs. However, the result is an extremely early GA. A nice strategy is to farm barbarians, since they can also be enslaved, and do not trigger the GA.

I hope we are Maya, since our agricultural trait will allow us quick expansion into this large map, perhaps allowing a fast Domination or 100K victory.

I agree with first moves. Worker N, if nothing special is to be seen, Settler NE. Looks like there may be plains to SW and W...

LeSphinx, the Mayan UU is the Javelin Thrower. It is a 2.2.1 unit that replaces the Archer. It's main ability is that when it wins a battle (attacking or defending), there is a 50% chance that the enemy is enslaved. If this happens, you get a free worker.

Combined with the Industrious trait, this makes the Maya a very strong civ indeed!

-- Roland

Enslave - the Javelin Thrower (Maya's UU), has a chance to enslave an enemy unit every time it wins a battle. I believe this chance is 1/3.

The civilopedia sais that the chance is 1/3, but my experience after two games with the Maya is that the chance is higher than that, probably 1/2. Or maybe I've just been extremely lucky! :)

-- Roland

ok, thanks chunkymonkey and Roland Ehnström .

Whoo, it's a great advantage to have so much worker easyly. But I think the Industrious civ trait do not apply for slaves workers. Right?

Indeed, GA and lots of free worker can be a very good advantage in a large map at the beginning!


LeSphinx

I think we are Maya. In any case, I am pretty sure we are Agricultural. I'll try to explain why:

- Up until now, in the COTM's, we have been three of the seven new C3C civs: Hittities, Netherlands and Byzantines. Judging from this, I believe we will walk through all of them up until COTM7. This leaves us with either Portugal, Sumeria, Inca or Maya.


You are probably right but I have a suspicion that at some point we will get one of the 'old' civs that had its traits altered for C3C. Two of them that have not been in a GOTM for a long time are the English and the Iroquois. Ruling out the English as they are not by the sea, that makes me think that the latter are worth an outside bet. The Iroquios are also agricultural BTW.

I haven't done any fog-gazing, but I am betting that we will have something interesting to the west that will make us choose between the river and it. I think the worker should go to the wheat. Otherwise, either of river grasslands look good.


I think I agree with this. Ainwood must have something to torture us with. ;)

I forgot to mention that I think that we will get a Monarch level game this month-it's the only middle level we haven't had yet.
Edit: EMPEROR :blush:

I'm not sure because COTM1 was Regent, COTM2 was Monarch, COTM3 was demigod.
If they'is logic in this, COTM4 shoud be Deity!
I hope not but let see what Ainwood is reserving us!
I'm looking foward to have all the informations about COTM4 and have donwload the saved games!
LeSphinx

I'm not sure because COTM1 was Regent, COTM2 was Monarch, COTM3 was demigod.
If they'is logic in this, COTM4 shoud be Deity!
I hope not but let see what Ainwood is reserving us!


IIRC in one of the spoilers for COTM3 Ainwood said the difficulty level would go down again, so I don't think it'll be deity level. :)

Yeah, Emperor would make sense, especially with a good starting location like this one (?). Also, I believe it's a pangea world, as we are yet to have one in COTM. Judging by the screenshot, I'd say we're north of the equator. The river probably runs from the hills in the SE towards the coast somewhere NW. The forests to the south suggest plains further south, or possibly jungle if it's a wet world.
-- Roland

Ouf! Emperor will be best than Deity!
Let's
Maybe today we will have more details!
LeSphinx

Yeah, Emperor would make sense, especially with a good starting location like this one (?). Also, I believe it's a pangea world, as we are yet to have one in COTM. Judging by the screenshot, I'd say we're north of the equator. The river probably runs from the hills in the SE towards the coast somewhere NW. The forests to the south suggest plains further south, or possibly jungle if it's a wet world.
-- Roland

I really don't hope it's a pangea shaped world, in my experience the AI tend to trade like crazy among themselves... If it's true I hope we're at least blessed with lots of resources and luxuries, so that we my trade as well. I don't want to be left behind, especially if the skilllevel is Emperor :(

But we'll see :)

On large map, the settler factory sould be established as soon as possible. Probably even more than one would be welcome. If our first city is to be a settler factory, I can imagine not to found it by the river if there is another food bonus on the west. Thus my worker will probably go to wheat to look around.

What would really be nice is find river just N or NW of wheat, so that with two moves the settler could be on river next to wheat. I like the idea of moving worker to wheat first. If no river is visible, I would move settler N. Then I think worker would go north of wheat to irrigate, to avoid reworking the BG.

IF we are not agricultural, then I think a good case could also be made for settling in place. This would give you the 3 food bonus immediately. Worker would irrigate N or NE and then head back to wheat to irrigate and finally start mining the BGs. In that scenario, I would move worker N first to uncover the most tiles and if nothing found settle in place and irrigate on the next turn. Working the wheat immediately means only one shield coming in, and with 15+ turns before we get around to mining a BG, I think I might consider building a worker first. The second worker would start mining a BG, while the first worker is finishing irrigating and roading the wheat. This comes at the expense of early exploring, and would be less useful if we are industrious.

I'm guessing we might be the Inca. A larger map would help the Expansionist trait make those early contacts payoff. For the same reasons mentioned earlier by Roland Ehnstrom, I'm limiting my options to new tribes and rejecting the three already played and Portugal (non-coastal start). Ainwood has been known to mod the opening picture so a scout is quite possible.

Having never played the Inca before, do they start with a Scout or a Chasqui Scout? Can the CS serve as Military Police? If it's a CS, then I might try a quick CS rush to my nearest neighbor hoping for a quick kill.

If we are the Inca, I'll open with at least 2 scouts, before starting on a granary (barracks pre-build). We start with Masonry & Warrior Code, so I'll probably research Pottery at max. reserch.

Just a quick request for Ainwood. Would it be possible to post the map size & difficulty level for upcoming games? I'm only able to play 1 of GOTM/COTM pair during the 30 day window some months due to RL commitments and would like to be able to plan which better fits my style of play.

Do they start with a Scout or a Chasqui Scout? - Scout, but can only build Chasqui Scouts
Can the CS serve as Military Police? - yes

Send the settler to the NE, keep the worker where he is and start a road. Irrigate when the road is complete and then irrigate the wheat. Save the bonus grassland squares for mining.

Send the settler to the NE, keep the worker where he is and start a road. Irrigate when the road is complete and then irrigate the wheat. Save the bonus grassland squares for mining.

I would not work normal grassland first if bonus gras is available. You want you citizen to work the best tile and improve another one first. That will waste worker turns.

I like Roland's and Xevious's analysis. I'm going to wait till we know the Civ before doing much planning. It does seem likely we'll be agricultural and in that case a move to the river will be well worthwhile. If we aren't agricultural then settling at the start position is tempting.

I think its the best starting position we've had in COTM so far :)

Until we figure out we are on a small island surounded by tundra. =P

If we are the Inca, I'll open with at least 2 scouts, before starting on a granary (barracks pre-build). We start with Masonry & Warrior Code, so I'll probably research Pottery at max. reserch.
An early rush sounds interesting, but do you want your first builds to take so long? I might want to build at least one warrior first just to get another explorer out there.

The Chasqui Scout costs 20s vs. the regular scout & warrior at 10s. In addition they upgrade to explorer. IMHO, the Chasqui requires a trade-off decision to use as an early scout. And then they have the same A/D as a warrior, so are only useful for a limited time. After that all they can do in MP or disband.

One of my many CIV flaws is not allowing my settler factory to get to a sustaining size before producing the first settler, hopefully by building a couple of Chasqui Scouts before the granary, I'll let it get big enough. Of course if were > Emperor, then I'll have to adjust that idea. My hope is to have a couple of CS out there exploring and get lucky and be able to pick off a settler/worker or two and stunt a tribes growth and allow for easy destruction once I've got swords on the map. The major downside to this is the very early golden age.

One of my many CIV flaws is not allowing my settler factory to get to a sustaining size before producing the first settler, hopefully by building a couple of Chasqui Scouts before the granary, I'll let it get big enough. Of course if were > Emperor, then I'll have to adjust that idea. My hope is to have a couple of CS out there exploring and get lucky and be able to pick off a settler/worker or two and stunt a tribes growth and allow for easy destruction once I've got swords on the map. The major downside to this is the very early golden age.
I guess was thinking emperor. It does sound like a nice aggressive start strategy. (Something, I need to work on. But, maybe not on Emperor.:) )

Send the settler to the NE, keep the worker where he is and start a road. Irrigate when the road is complete and then irrigate the wheat. Save the bonus grassland squares for mining.
This is my most likely start as well, for the same reason - keep those bonus grasslands available to the capital!

I think we are Maya. In any case, I am pretty sure we are Agricultural. I'll try to explain why:

- Up until now, in the COTM's, we have been three of the seven new C3C civs: Hittities, Netherlands and Byzantines. Judging from this, I believe we will walk through all of them up until COTM7. This leaves us with either Portugal, Sumeria, Inca or Maya.

- The last two COTM's have been with a Seafaring civ. I would be surprised to have three Seafaring games in a row. Also, Seafaring civs always start by the coast, so unless Ainwood has modded the start position, we can rule out Portugal. So we are either Inca, Maya or Sumeria. Note that all of those are Agricultural civs.

- There is no scout showing in the screenshot, so unless Ainwood as modded it again (it has happened before), we can rule out Inca.

- The Sumerians are Scientific, which Byzantines were in COTM3. The Maya, on the other hand, are Indsustrious, and we have never been an Industrous civ in COTM. Also, the Mayan UU has the "enslave" ability, which we have not had a chance to try yet. This would be a good time. Therefore, I am putting my money on Maya.

Disclaimer: All of the above could be total bs. :p

-- Roland
Nice analysis! :goodjob: And to think I chose Maya just 'cause I think they're cool! :D

Gonna be a lot of early conquests with the Javalin thrower!
I like the Maya too. =)

Ooh, a builder's Dream Civ...

Neil. :cool:

Great! I love the Maya.

I think the number of civs we have on this large map will define the victory condition I aim for - I think we might see a lot of milked games, although the size of the map might put some people off...

What would really be nice is find river just N or NW of wheat, so that with two moves the settler could be on river next to wheat. I like the idea of moving worker to wheat first. If no river is visible, I would move settler N. Then I think worker would go north of wheat to irrigate, to avoid reworking the BG.

Good thinking. My worker is now ordered to go W. :)

-- Roland

Nice analysis! :goodjob: And to think I chose Maya just 'cause I think they're cool! :D

:crazyeye: :lol: :king:

Spot on, Roland. Well done :goodjob:

So with such a good starting position, where's the catch? :D

I'm tempted to follow Xevious' idea and move the worker W. Particularly as there are not many bgs in sight, which might limit any settler factory plans.

I don't think there is a need to scout with the worker. We see already two top notch positions for a Maya capital.
So I will not waste the industrous worker turns, but just flip a coin to go N or NE.
NE is better from what we see (it is a 4-6 settler factory already), but it would fit to Ainwood if N is really the better solution.

I would not work normal grassland first if bonus gras is available. You want you citizen to work the best tile and improve another one first. That will waste worker turns.
Nope, the first thing I want to do is irrigate the wheat (settler factory in the capital), I do not want to irragate a bonus tile because I will end up turning it into a mine within a few turns, the irragated grass will just be unworked until I switch goverments.

I can't tell if the start position is BG or not. It looks like there's a dot just left of the settlers foot. The reason I bring it up is that moving the settler N will lose the bottom BG. But then, as nice as the surrounding area looks I'd be willing to bet there are more somewhere N, NE or NW of start. Now that I think about it, I'm likely to move the settler N in any case, so why not move settler N first? If I see the the river turns W or SW, I can then move worker W, otherwise, he can stay in place. <EDIT> On further reflection, if the settler doesn't see any more BG after moving N, we could even move SE on the second turn to make sure we get both of the visible ones. The worker would road the start tile in this case meaning the extra settler move wouldn't cost us anything more than 1 turn of growth/prod. </EDIT>

If worker stays in place, I would road (since I can't irrigate right off), irrigate, move NW, road BG to bump up gold, move SW, and irrigate wheat. This will irrigate the wheat just as capital expands and can use wheat. Then road wheat, move NE and mine BG, then look for another BG. Roading that first BG will be nice because captial will grow just after it's roaded, giving a non river spot for a citizen to work. With luck there will be a BG on the river as well and production will just zip along.

For a 20k game, if you use the capital as the 20k city, the NE spot is probably better, owing to the 4 hills and 2 BG you'd get.

Nope, the first thing I want to do is irrigate the wheat (settler factory in the capital), I do not want to irragate a bonus tile because I will end up turning it into a mine within a few turns, the irragated grass will just be unworked until I switch goverments.

My sentiments exactly (see above).

I hope we do not get the Mayans.

Their traits are great, they have a very special UU, too, but they leaderhead and city names are hopelessly ugly.

Rome, Babylon, Maya, Byzantines (probably not again) have red starting or secondary color.

But how about the Celts? :) I would really love to play the Celts. :)

Ainwood already confirmed the Mayans. Sorry, Longasc.

@Longasc: what's so ugly about chicken pizza? :D

Seriously, wouldn't you rather have Chichen Itza than Tzintzuntzen or Aztcapotzalco or some equally-unpronounceable Aztec name? Besides, you can rename the cities.

Did you spell those from memory?

N looks better than NE. We can already see the tiles we would get by moving NE, and they aren't that good.

I'm going to start by moving the worker west to the wheat. As Xevious says, it would be nice to find a river closer to the wheat.

If there is such a river visible after moving the worker then I'll move the settler two steps to be on the river and to have the wheat directly beside the city. The worker will road then irrigate.

If there is no river visible after moving the worker then I'll move the settler NE. Next turn the worker will move NE to the BG. If something really useful becomes visible north of that I might change plans at this point. More likely there's nothing there and I settle the capital same turn on the tile NE of start. Next the worker roads and then irrigates the BG tile, then moves to the wheat and irrigates then roads that. This sequence gets the wheat irrigated just in time for the capital's border expansion and saves one worker turn sometime later when returning to the irrigated BG to mine it.

Moving the settler north is tempting to reveal a little more but NE seems safer. I'd like a forest in the immediate city radius and the NE location assures that as well as assuring a four turn settler factory. The forest will add a bit of production during some food overruns in early turns. One turn of the first seven the citizen can be on the forest, and four turns of the following six one of the two citizens can be on the forest. This will still result in growing to size 3 at 3300BC, same as if the forest hadn't been used but gains 5 shields. NE also has at least one additional forest in its radius which can be chopped sometime for a production boost.

I'm not decided on initial research nor build yet. Depends on difficulty level and barbarian setting.

I've changed my mind about one detail :)

Assuming the worker move west doesn't reveal a river closer to the wheat, my worker will road the wheat first, then move NE to the BG, road and then irrigate, then move back to the wheat and irrigate. This sequence gets the wheat irrigated one turn after borders expand. The food shortfall from that can be covered by using the forest for one turn less. This sequence trades one shield for the worker being one turn faster. The lost shield can quickly be gained back by having the worker mine the roaded BG after irrigating the wheat, and from then on he remains one turn ahead of the other sequence, a clear improvement.

Yes, I did. Why?

Impressed, I guess. I generally consider myself a good speller, despite never managing to do better than third in my elementary school spelling bee, yet I always have trouble with the Aztec and Inca city names. Don't really know why I bothered to ask, though.

Well, Aztecs, Mayans, Incans... they piss me off, especially because I have to deactivate culturally linked starting positions.

I had them too often in my games, and I just prefer to play with and against Romans and Greeks, I am more interested in them historically.

Let's hope for next month COTM.

OK - a bit more info:

As I said at the start, this game is on a large map. Can't remember the exact settings, but I think its 5 billion years old, cool and wet. :hmm:

The level is Monarch, so that with a good starting location ( :mischief: ) should mean that the Conquest-class players can do all-right.

Given the large land mass and the enslave ability of the Javelin Thrower, its pretty easy to barb-farm for workers for quite a while. So, this forms the basis of the difficulty scaling. For the Predator players, I've made changes to the attack odds against barbs. I'm actually still toying with it - playing with the attack bonus as per the difficulty level, and also with giving barb warriors higher defense (not much point in giving them higher attack, cause they don't use it :rolleyes: )

The base level of barbs is 'restless'.

I will have trouble with this, choosing between lots of settlers or throw in the odd JT at the same cost. But I suppose they are needed in a game like this. :)

Settler NE and worker start irrigating, a no-brainer for me. If there are any other food resources a second city can have it.

Settler NE and worker start irrigating, a no-brainer for me. If there are any other food resources a second city can have it.

Just remember you can't irrigate until after you settle. You can build a road in two turns, so you could build a road and be one turn behind on irrigating, or you would have to wait the worker one turn.

I will have trouble with this, choosing between lots of settlers or throw in the odd JT at the same cost. But I suppose they are needed in a game like this. :)

I do not know if it will work. Would it be reasonable to hunt for slaves, join city and make settlers out of them? :confused:

:lol: of course I need to road first, I hate wasting even one turn. But I should've said so :)

I do not know if it will work. Would it be reasonable to hunt for slaves, join city and make settlers out of them? :confused:

A very good point. Usually I like free workers even if they are slower, bvut in the long run with enough enslaved workers I would throw in a few in cities to get more settlers. I will try to remember that when I start to play :goodjob:

Aiming for at least 15 cities by 1000bc, everything over that is a bonus :)

I've changed my mind about one detail :)

Assuming the worker move west doesn't reveal a river closer to the wheat, my worker will road the wheat first, then move NE to the BG, road and then irrigate, then move back to the wheat and irrigate. This sequence gets the wheat irrigated one turn after borders expand. The food shortfall from that can be covered by using the forest for one turn less. This sequence trades one shield for the worker being one turn faster. The lost shield can quickly be gained back by having the worker mine the roaded BG after irrigating the wheat, and from then on he remains one turn ahead of the other sequence, a clear improvement.

Assuming the river won't wrap all the way around, maybe it would be better to just move the worker right to the BG initially. This uncovers less tiles, but does show the ones to the NW that we're concerned about. It would not only eliminate that extra turn, but give you one more.

Regardless, I don't like the idea of irrigating a tile that I plan to mine. This is why I plan to move the settler N first. If it looks unlikely for the river to turn SW, I will start the worker in place.

The base level of barbs is 'restless'.

Of course we get Restless barbs when Raging would have been most useful!

Of course we get Restless barbs when Raging would have been most useful!

& we get cool & wet when hot & dry would have matched our traits

I am paranoid about this "good" start, i think one of two things are going to happen.

-Either it really is a good start and there are other bonus resources nearby, the river runs for several tiles, luxuries are near as well as reources

-or, more likely, what we see is about all we get and the river stops abruptly and we must deal with an abscence of resources (bonus / luxury / strategic)

Assuming the river won't wrap all the way around, maybe it would be better to just move the worker right to the BG initially. This uncovers less tiles, but does show the ones to the NW that we're concerned about. It would not only eliminate that extra turn, but give you one more.
I think it ends up being the same number of turns - either way can get the wheat irrigated, the BG mined (replacing initial irrigation), and both tiles roaded as of 3200BC. I think that the only difference is one shield less for the capital due to being able to use the forest for one less turn if starting by moving the worker to the wheat.

As I said at the start, this game is on a large map. Can't remember the exact settings, but I think its 5 billion years old, cool and wet. :hmm:
...
The level is Monarch, so that with a good starting location ( :mischief: ) should mean that the Conquest-class players can do all-right.

The base level of barbs is 'restless'.

uh, oh. I see jungles. Lots and lots of jungles. Maya are Agricultural & Industrious, I think we are going to need the industrious triat. I wish they were mod'ed like in the Conquest scenario to get two food from jungle.

Does the Industious trait apply to slaves?

Does the Industious trait apply to slaves?

I think a slave works at half the speed of a non-industrious worker, and industrious workers work 50% faster than non-industrious workers. So regular slaves, including barbarians, should be a third as fast. Not a worry though, I've played some trial games with different barbarian levels, and I can amass plently of barbarian slaves by the end of the Ancient Age if I put my mind to it.

Does anyone know what happens if you do add a barbarian slave to a town? Which culture do they have, and do they get moody during wartime?

As I said at the start, this game is on a large map. Can't remember the exact settings, but I think its 5 billion years old, cool and wet. :hmm:

Pangaea or Continents?

-- Roland

We've had continents twice and archipelagos once. My money is squarely on pangaea.

Neil. :cool:

I made up my mind (w/o even throwing a coin).
I will settle NE, the position is already nearly perfect, no need for any risks. We even have 2 forests so 1 can be cut (mind you, in only 3 turns).
The worker will do a road on the starting tile, because this road is anyways needed later no matter which tile is irrigated.
If there is anything interesting on the other side of the river the second build in the capitol will be a worker to minimize river crossings. Because we need to work only one food bonus, growth is not affected by going down to size 1. The few shields lost will be easy to get back by more improved tiles and a cut forest.
The BG will probably get irrigated and if more BGs are available it may even stay so all the way to republic (which hopefully will come quite early).
An irrigated plain grass will probably never be needed at this position, so there's no waste even if the BG needs to be mined after irrigation.
The exact sequence can be worked out only after the capital is settled, but I'm positive that the settler pump can start pumping very early.

@Klarius

If you do settle NE and road with the worker where he is, why not irrigate this plain grass, to allow wheat irrigation? This way, you do not have to irrigate the BG and then mine it. Both the same number of worker turns, and the result is still the same (you end up with a mined BG and irrigated wheat) but you end up with an extra irrigation square for later...

@Klarius

If you do settle NE and road with the worker where he is, why not irrigate this plain grass, to allow wheat irrigation? This way, you do not have to irrigate the BG and then mine it. Both the same number of worker turns, and the result is still the same (you end up with a mined BG and irrigated wheat) but you end up with an extra irrigation square for later...
As I said that's to be decided after the capitol is settled. If there are more BGs, especially on the river, we may not even need this BG mined. And really the plain grass needs no irrigation. This city will be so food rich in republic that it will not work irrigated plain grass.

For the AA we need only enough good tiles to work the settler pump, worst case we have only what we see. But another BG over the river would already allow the irrigated BG to stay irrigated.

I would even not try to make a combo pump out of the capital even if it should be possible. The rapid growth of an agricultural civ and the fast path to republic in conquests makes this effort much less attractive IMO.

But again, I will only decide after the city is settled, so I may also go the course to irrigate the starting position, but then there is a good chance that this tile gets mined later in a golden age.

Thanks for the explanation. Seems very sensible to me.

I keep forgetting we're agricultural! :)

I'm fairly certain that barbarian workers cannot be added to towns, though I haven't tried it to see for sure.

You can join them - they are just like any other slave worker.

Why isn't there anyone willing to mine the wheat? With the agricultural trait we have +2 in growth anyway.
If there are no luxuries close by, maybe the extra growth isn't worth it. Just trying to wake a discussion :)

You can't discuss a possible 4-turn settler factory on 95% of the maps. The game sadly is very flat in this perspective - if you can get one you have to take it. You can have a look at COTM2 where even wandering 6-8 turns to get it, was worth it. You could mine the wheat, if you get a second food bonus.

You can't discuss a possible 4-turn settler factory on 95% of the maps. The game sadly is very flat in this perspective - if you can get one you have to take it. You can have a look at COTM2 where even wandering 6-8 turns to get it, was worth it. You could mine the wheat, if you get a second food bonus.

i agree, you HAVE to irrigate the wheat unless there is another wheat or a cow nearby. the 4 turn settler factory on a large world w/ the industrious trait should have us a very large empire by the time the REX phase is over.

Why isn't there anyone willing to mine the wheat? With the agricultural trait we have +2 in growth anyway.
If there are no luxuries close by, maybe the extra growth isn't worth it. Just trying to wake a discussion

this makes a 4 turn settler factory into a 6 turn settler factory, the difference is that in 12 turns you have 2 settlers built while if you had irrigated you would have produced 3, that's a whole settler's difference in just 12 turns, every 12 turns.

Good points guys... I've always mined in the beginning, but I think I will irrigate this time too.

surely the four turn settler factour depends on us having at least the wheat and 3 BGs (or the two BGS plus another bonus) within our radius?

Unless i'm missing something, we won't have the pump unless we have something tasty, besides what we can see at the moment.

Base square on river = 3 food p/t (Ag trait), irrigated Wheat = 2+2+1-1 (depotism) = 4 food p/t. Take away the 2 food needed for the citizen (assuming the rest of the worked squares are grass or bonus grass), et voila 7-2 = +5 food p/t.

Neil. :cool:

Too many questions ;) Just read this article (http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/cracker/civ3_starts/index.htm) (and yes I mean all of it). It should explain almost everything about starting moves and terrain.

Just one note about factory and bonus grasslands. A 4-turn settler factory needs 30 shields in 4 turns. You can get them in this sequence:

6-8-7-9 and that does not require many bonus grasslands, but I leave that up to think about. Just one tip: a forest in your city radius comes in very handy. ;)

OK thanks :)

note also that it may require a bit of micromanagement when growing, but we have everything we need for a 4 turn settler factory right there

Pangaea or Continents?

-- Roland
Continents. :)

Hmm... what if we're stuck on an island all on our ownsome, needing the Lighthouse to (safely) escape it...?

Neil. :cool:

I just joined a PBEM and I get Mayan, then I join an SG and the team is playing Mayan, and now GOTM, Mayan again. Problem is that they have all just started, so I'll play 3 games where I don't know what I'm doing, all at the same time.

Large continent map, hmmmm, sounds like I should avoid domination for a change, then again, 100k culture may be fun.

Beware the Raggo, not I will try but I will get owned as I am still a Warlord player almost Regent so Monarch will kick me to heaven.
Oh well mighten well try aye. Might make a good story

Continents. :)

Thank you!

Alas, all my test-games have been assuming a Pangaea world this time. Ah, an excuse to play some more, then. Setting up Settler factories is fun! :king:

-- Roland

I just joined a PBEM and I get Mayan, then I join an SG and the team is playing Mayan, and now GOTM, Mayan again. Problem is that they have all just started, so I'll play 3 games where I don't know what I'm doing, all at the same time.
I know that feeling. :lol: I've just started a HoF attempt (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2092408&postcount=1) playing the Maya on Regent. I try to get that game a bit further so the difference should stand out a bit more. I guess I'm lucky to be able to set the pace, which you can't in SG or PBEM. Maybe you can name your capital 'COTM04'. :hmm: Anyway, good luck, smackster. :thumbsup:

I coming back from WE and I see a lot of informations and some very good advise for the first move according to our starting location.

Well, we 've got a bit more of informations:

Civ played : The Maya which are Agricultural & Industrious
Large Map : 5 billion yers old, cool , wet
Monarch level
UU: Javelin Thrower with enslave ability
Barbarians restless

What does restless means exactly : about numbers ? and about their move ? and about their attack ?

According to the lines read and I agree with that, I will move my worker to Wheat in order to see if there is a river near the Wheat. If yes, we all are Ok to say that we can establish our first city in 2 turns and we will be sure to have the benefits of the wheat and of the river!
But if theire is no river near the Wheat ! The Starting location seams good too even N and NE!

Reading all the post, why irrigating a BG (Bonys Grassland, i think?) first then building mine ?

LeSphinx

You may have to irrigate a grassland to get irrigation to the wheat. If you have a city next to a river, the city itself counts as irrigated, so you can irrigate any tile next to it. But if you settle n or ne your city is not next to the wheat and you may have to temporarily irrigate a grassland to get irrigation to the wheat. This gets very speculative now, because either way you would like to have a river next to the wheat. Best is imho to recap all this once you moved your worker and/or settler in either direction and then use the information tu judge the position.

ok thanks grs
LeSphinx

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Roland Ehnström
I think we are Maya. In any case, I am pretty sure we are Agricultural. I'll try to explain why:

- Up until now, in the COTM's, we have been three of the seven new C3C civs: Hittities, Netherlands and Byzantines. Judging from this, I believe we will walk through all of them up until COTM7. This leaves us with either Portugal, Sumeria, Inca or Maya.

- The last two COTM's have been with a Seafaring civ. I would be surprised to have three Seafaring games in a row. Also, Seafaring civs always start by the coast, so unless Ainwood has modded the start position, we can rule out Portugal. So we are either Inca, Maya or Sumeria. Note that all of those are Agricultural civs.

- There is no scout showing in the screenshot, so unless Ainwood as modded it again (it has happened before), we can rule out Inca.

- The Sumerians are Scientific, which Byzantines were in COTM3. The Maya, on the other hand, are Indsustrious, and we have never been an Industrous civ in COTM. Also, the Mayan UU has the "enslave" ability, which we have not had a chance to try yet. This would be a good time. Therefore, I am putting my money on Maya.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

According to this prediction, I play a Maya game with WE in order to see how the Agricultural trait looks like!
Agricultural trait with City on river and a granary is a very good strategy for the settler factory and for the first expansion.

During my game, I notice something which surprise me: I wan to build the Forbiden palace in a city very very very far away my capitol in order to give productivity to a lot of city in this new area. The forbiden palace was build by rishing with a geat leader and the city has a very huge boost in corruption: no more corruption in this cities but the lot of cities around have not change ? Why ?
Someting has change in the C3C ?

Another point is that I can not rush a great wonder with a great leader in the starting cities but I can in other cities conquered ? Why ?

Thanks in advance for the answers.
LeSphinx

Yes, the Forbidden Palace has changed in C3C. Now you need to build it close to your original Palace, or else it is more or less worthless.

To answer your second question: In C3C a MILITARY great leader can only rush SMALL wonders (Forbidden Palace, Battlefield Medicine, Military Academy, etc). However, the upside is that the armies he can create are now A LOT more effective: They can attack multiple times and can pillage without losing movement points, and more. In fact, armies are now perhaps too strong, especially since the AI virtually never build them.

Also, there is a second kind of great leader: The SCIENTIFIC great leader. You have a small chance to get one every time you are the first to research a tech. This kind of great leader can rush anything, including GREAT wonders. However, in COTM the scientific great leaders are turned off, because they unbalance the game too much (too much of a question of luck if you get one or not).

-- Roland

During my game, I notice something which surprise me: I wan to build the Forbiden palace in a city very very very far away my capitol in order to give productivity to a lot of city in this new area. The forbiden palace was build by rishing with a geat leader and the city has a very huge boost in corruption: no more corruption in this cities but the lot of cities around have not change ? Why ?
Someting has change in the C3C ?

LeSphinx

You might want to check out alexman's detailed analysis of corruption in C3C: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76619&page=1.

Thanks a lot Roland Ehnström and Tone for the precisions.
LeSphinx

Large continent map, hmmmm, sounds like I should avoid domination for a change, then again, 100k culture may be fun.

Remember, on a large map, to be a culture vulture you need 130000 points :)

chunkymonkey are you sure abotu the 130 000 cultural point for the 100K Victory?
LeSphinx

It's true.

Tiny Map - 60,000
Small Map - 80,000
Standard Map - 100,000
Large Map - 130,000
Huge Map - 160,000

Otherwise it becomes near-impossible to reach 100k on smaller maps and too easy on Huge maps.

Ok Cuivienen , thanks.
I did not know.
LeSphinx

Actually, how much water is there on this map...?
Another thing I've noticed from maps I've generated, is there's a lot of plains as opposed to grass. So this would appear to be a really generous starting location.

Neil. :cool:

I also generated some maps with these settings (continents, cold, wet, 5 billion) and one odd thing that struck me was that the "order" of terrain from the north-pole to the equator wasn't the usual (and realistic) tundra->forest->grassland->plains->desert->jungle, but rather tundra->plains->desert->grassland->forest->jungle. So we could well start pretty close to the equator (on the northern hemisphere), and have forests and jungle to the south, and desert and plains to the north!

-- Roland

hmmm... I am very confused on which way i hsould move my settler and what building order i should have. Any suggestions?

As for Settler moves, there have been a number of good suggestions already in this thread, check the previous pages. Currently, I am leaning to moving the Settler NE if the initial Worker move to the Wheat doesn't reveal anything of value (like a river).

For me, the build-order looks like it's going to be Warrior (for exploration)->Warrior (for MP duty)->Settler->Granary (helped by chopping one forest tile)->Worker (2 turns) and then a Settler every 4 turns, with some 2-turn Workers every now and then.

The first Settler I build will found my second town in the best possible site, probably along the river to the NW, and hopefully next to another Wheat or Cattle. It will then build Warrior (for MP duty)->Granary->Settler->Settler->Settler...

The third town will build 2 or 3 more Warriors for MP duty, then probably Barracks followed by Javelin Throwers, which will go hunting for Barbarians.

If I find the coast, I will make sure I found a town on it as soon as possible, and then send two Curraghs out in opposite directions.

As for science, I will go for the Philosophy slingshot: Alphabet->Writing->Code of Laws->Philosophy and free Republic. The rate will depend on the number of opponents (how many will we have?).

-- Roland

SirPleb's idea of moving the settler to the wheat in order to find perhaps a second river to the W got me thinking...
How about settling on the spot, before moving the worker ?
The city borders will reveal all the tiles (and more) that would be revealed by moving the worker west. If a river near the wheat is present, the worker can move to the wheat, road, move to that river and start irrigating. If no river is revealed, the worker can move N or NE, irrigate, road, and then move to the wheat.
Upside : wheat in initial city radius, earliest possible start of production and research, no turn or shield loss compared with SirPleb's scenario (uhm... at least I think so...).
Downside : city is not next to a river, but that doesn't seem so important to me, if it's to be used as a settler factory (and not grow beyond 6 anytime soon). If there are lots of goodies to the west, I can move that direction with a second settler.

Did I overlook something ?

@SniperDevil
From your question I deduce that you will be not confused less even after a worker move.
So I would recommend that you do just the solid move, settler NE.
This site is guaranteed a 4-turn settler factory needing only 30-40 worker turns to set up.
The first builds depend still on how the tiles in the fog work out, but Roland's sequence sounds very solid.
I will probably go the course of only one warrior and granary before settler, but that's personal taste.
The agricultural trait allows rapid growth in any case.

Science as Roland recommends. You have to try the philosophy-republic slingshot always in conquests. It's just such a big advantage.

Did I overlook something ?
Yes, the agricultural trait. This means the city center will produce 3 food on the river in despotism, instead of 2. This is needed to get the 4-turn factory.

Science as Roland recommends. You have to try the philosophy-republic slingshot always in conquests. It's just such a big advantage.

Yes, except on Pangaea maps at Emperor or higher, with at least 7 AI. With those settings, I believe it is virtually impossible for the player to get to Philosophy first, if he/she doesn't go directly to Philosophy from Writing (skipping Code of Laws). All because of the massive AI tech-trading.

-- Roland

It's true.

Tiny Map - 60,000
Small Map - 80,000
Standard Map - 100,000
Large Map - 130,000
Huge Map - 160,000

Otherwise it becomes near-impossible to reach 100k on smaller maps and too easy on Huge maps.
Actually, the amount of culture required is configurable in the .biq file. Those figures are only for standard games. ainwood could set the culture limit to something else!

Incidentally ainwood, does the Jason score for culture victories take acount of values other than 100K total or 20K for a city?

Remember, on a large map, to be a culture vulture you need 130000 points :)
OK, Space Race or UN then. I must admit I'm a bit scared of a large map, I don't even know if I've played one before. How much longer would we expect the game to take, maybe I should book some vacation from work, just to play this.

smackster

Well, yes, it is configurable, but I don't expect Ainwood will fiddle around with the base values.

Actually, the amount of culture required is configurable in the .biq file. Those figures are only for standard games. ainwood could set the culture limit to something else! I didn't ;) Its purely standard.


Incidentally ainwood, does the Jason score for culture victories take acount of values other than 100K total or 20K for a city?You'd have to ask Aeson / AlanH about that - Aeson designed the original system, and AlanH implimented it (and designed it for C3C).


BTW: I don't have the minimap to hand, but IIRC the start location is 'sort-of' near the equator, in the western half of the world. And yes; lots of grassland is very generous! :king:

uh, oh. I see jungles. Lots and lots of jungles.
Not Jungle but Tundra, lots and lots of tundra. (from a couple test games with large, 70% continents, cool, wet, 5 Biil) Wonderful barb/slave factories. :)

BTW, Desert isn't bad for agricutural. Works the same as plains.

Moving to the river shouldn't be an issue for the early game. Remember that for an agricultural civ the aqueduct is half price. Couldn't build Hoover later on though. But haven't the winners finished the game long before then?

To make it clear again:
Moving to the river is crucial for despotism.
The food bonus in the city center for agricultural civs is only granted, when located on fresh water.
In better governments the food bonus is always there, so then one can benefit from the cheap aqueducts.

BTW, Desert isn't bad for agricutural. Works the same as plains.

Yep, and of course cold and wet means very small deserts on this map, thanks Ainwood. :rolleyes: ;)

-- Roland

Moving to the river shouldn't be an issue for the early game. Remember that for an agricultural civ the aqueduct is half price. Couldn't build Hoover later on though. But haven't the winners finished the game long before then?
Klarius has cleared up the Agricultural benefit of +1 food even in Despotism, but only if located adjacent to fresh water (river or lake).

Regarding Hoover's Dam: I thought the requirement was a river somewhere within the city radius, not that the city had to be on the river.

Regarding Hoover's Dam: I thought the requirement was a river somewhere within the city radius, not that the city had to be on the river. And this is correct, but speculations about Hoover's...in a pregame thread...I guess Drazek, Sir Pleb and Co. will have a domination before you can spell Hoover's correct, so...starting moves could be really a better focus :)

The requirement is actually a lake or a tile with riverbonus in range, so you can build it in a city that has a river just touching the border.

Since we're talking about the a potential settler factory this game, I was wondering if anyone would be willing to walk us through it step by step for this particular game. Failing that, could someone post a link to the thread that delineates it? Like alot of newbies, I'm not much into micro-management, but I might make an exception for a settler factory, since it could really elevate my gameplay.

Since we're talking about the a potential settler factory this game, I was wondering if anyone would be willing to walk us through it step by step for this particular game.
here you go! thank bamspeedy ;)http://www.msnusers.com/BamSpeedysCiv3Screenshots/babylonsdeitysettlersgotm14.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=67

by the way, how long do you think it'll take till you regret having the word "groin" in your username :lol:

edit: ahh, my mom taught me to be nicer than that. welcome to cotm and cfc :)

edit 2: peglegasus put the same link with more helpful info than me, however, i can add the following as a civ-opening sequence-bible of sorts -> Cracker's Opening Moves/Terrain Bonuses (http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/cracker/civ3_starts/opening_plays.htm#identify_power) . the only food bonus it is missing for C3C that is confusing for me is sugar on plains. irrigating them doesn't help in despotism, so mine them for a 2fpt/2spt tile.

Since we're talking about the a potential settler factory this game, I was wondering if anyone would be willing to walk us through it step by step for this particular game. Failing that, could someone post a link to the thread that delineates it? Like alot of newbies, I'm not much into micro-management, but I might make an exception for a settler factory, since it could really elevate my gameplay.


Check out Bamspeedy's Babylon's Deity Settlers (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_deity_settlers.shtml)

The main points are: You need a granary of course, and your city needs to grow every 2 turns which means you have to have 5 extra food going into the bin each turn. If your city grows every 2 turns and can produce 30 shields in the span of 4 turns, you have a 4 turn settler factory, the ideal setup. The trick is remembering to move any citizens that have been put on a forest tile after the city grows.

A good way to practice: GOTM 33 Greece had a good spot for a settler factory and it was the first time I really understood how to do it and got one going myself. Download the conquest class so you get an extra worker to try it out :) It did take a bit of work to get it going though. Anyone else know any GOTM games that have an easy settler factory start?


Edit: OOPS! I was too slow. Grahamiam beat me to it

Groin_Apologist , You've got in the War Academy a good articles too from Trip
"The Case For Food - Or, How to Become Economically Dominant"

LeSphinx
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The Case For Food - Or, How to Become Economically Dominant
Author: Trip; Date Added: 5/28/04
This article is about some of the things I suggest for internal improvement. Basically, how I think city spacing and the economic buildup of a civ (under ideal circumstances) should be approached.

There are four things I think are pivotal in the maximum economic development of a civ: the Agricultural trait, early Granaries, copious amounts of Workers (early) and tight-city spacing.

Quite simply put, food is power in Civ 3, and as long as you can keep yourself alive, if you have the most food then you are the most powerful. You have the greatest capability to build new cities, you have higher populations in your current cities which allow you greater generation of production and commerce. Those three things are basically what determines who is most powerful: the number of cities, production capability and usable GPT.

Obviously intelligent building of units and city improvements also has a huge impact on how successful a civ does, but I'm assuming for this article that players are capable of this.

The Agricultural Trait

The Agricultural trait in one of the best ways to help increase the amount of food and population a civ is in possession of. Every city built on fresh water (river or lake) gets an extra food from the very start of the game. Thus, every time a city grows it will only take 7 turns instead of 10 at the minimum. Just think... growing to size 6 you save a total of 18 turns! That's 18 turns where you'll have extra pop in your cities, which means 18 turns where you'll be generating more production and 18 turns where you'll be generating more commerce. And that's just one city. Imagine the effect empire-wide.

If you have some sort of bonus food resource in the area you can easily get to 5 food per turn. Coupled with a Granary that's TWO-turn growth. And that's for only 1 food resource. If you have more bonus food for other cities to use that's multiple cities with 2-turn growth. The ability to achieve this allows you to build Workers in only 2 turns indefinitely, never losing population since you complete the Worker at the same rate your city grows. With those Workers you can either work more tiles (very important, but I'll get to that later) or you can add those cheap and quick Workers to other cities. Worried about those cities stuck with hills around that will take forever to grow? Well in only 10 turns from one Worker pump city you can get that city from size 1 all the way to size 7 with just the production from one city.

Clearly, extra food gives you an immense boost in power. Deserts also provide 2 food and 1 shield when irrigated instead of only 1/1. This allows deserts to be tracts of productive land instead of barriers and useless dirt for production. But I'm also getting into other things, so I'll continue onto my other subjects.

Granaries

As I said in the section above, Granaries are very important in growth. Growth twice as fast is an amazing tool, and coupled with a 5 food surplus you have a city that's more a weapon than a city. The earlier the Granaries are built the earlier they start paying off. Thus under normal circumstances I always build a Granary as early as I can. If you are playing as an Agricultural civ then you get Pottery from the start of the game, which means as soon as I get out a few Warriors for scouting and MP I almost always start on a Granary in order to have it done before my capital gets to size 4 or 5. You can then produce 2 Settlers one after another and you'll already be ahead of the average civ that has no Granary. Or you can wait for the city to "recharge" and build something between the Settlers, keeping production and commerce higher with a higher population.

The more Granaries in more cities you have and this effect is exponential. More Granaries means a lot more food and more food in more cities is a LOT more Settlers and new cities in the long-run. However, a player also has to know how to balance the building of Granaries. Granaries aren't needed in EVERY city (early on anyways), and more than 2 or 3 early Granaries (depending on your food situation) is probably overkill and detracting from resources that could be used for other purposes.

This scheme is generally true for most games. The very early warmonger may have different priorities, but even when I plan on rushing a neighbor I usually follow this pattern if only to have a single city which is capable of better-than-average growth for the purposes of building new Workers and cities for more production and increasing the unit support limit.

Additionally, a Granary many not be necessary (until later on in the game) for very high food cities. If you're capable of generating, say, 7 food per turn with relative ease (2 bonus food resources) then with 3-turn growth having a Granary early isn't vital. Your city can grow so fast that the help of the Granary isn't immediately necessary. However, having a Granary eventually will allow you to share some of that food with another city and keeping fast (2-turn) growth. Which leads me to...

Workers

With that extra food and Granaries you can build lots of Workers, which is vital to having enough tiles for all cities to work. With a tight-city spacing it can sometimes be hard to keep up with improvements. However, with enough Workers you can (and should) always have enough fully improved tiles for all cities to work. Once that becomes the case you can have Workers preparing tiles for future growth and future city sites. With such fast growth the need for Workers grows, and you should make sure you always have a proper amount of Workers for your cities.

Not having enough Workers is one of the main flaws in less experienced players' play styles. They will often go with only their original Worker for quite some time into the game, which seriously weakens the economic position of a player. A general rule of thumb is to have 2 Workers per city if you're not using an Industrious Civ, or 1.5 Workers per city if you are. Obviously early on this will be difficult (and probably not necessary) to achieve so this rule is more important for when a civ's position becomes more developed and the initial REX phase has completed. Your first Worker ought to get plenty of done for your capital, but you'll often lag behind when you build your next couple cities. It's important to balance Workers and Settlers to keep a balance in expansion and infrastructure improvement.

City Spacing

City spacing is the plan or pattern which players locate their cities on the map. Some players use an ad hoc patter (basically deciding where the next city goes as soon as its Settler is built), whereas others may draft an elaborate and complex plan many turns in advance, knowing exactly where each Settler is going before it ever gets built.

City spacing can be tight, loose or somewhere in between. "Loose" spacing is generally defined as OCP (Optimum City Placement), which basically means there are 4 tiles between each city. This would look like cxxxxcxxxxc, with c being a city and x being a tile. This placement means there is very little overlap in tiles between cities' radii, if any at all. A tighter spacing is usually somewhere around 2 tiles, which would be cxxcxxc. The tightest possible is 1-tile spacing, which is generally referred to as ICS (Infinite City Sprawl), and looks like cxcxc. With this strategy the cities are very close to each other.

City placement is often the other great quandary of inexperienced players along with building too few Workers. Many new players or Civ2 players will place their cities very far apart in order to give each city the maximum amount of tiles to work each. However, due to the corruption system and simply production possibility a loose spacing is inferior to a tighter one.

Tight city-spacing is one of the most important things to ensure maximum power and growth. Cities closer to the capital have lower corruption and are able to work previous improved tiles that aren't being used. Once you build your FP you have a second core from which to spiral cities outwards from. 2 to 3 tile spacing is the best way to get the most out of your land.

"Camp" cities can be set up with the express purpose of disbanding them in the future. Thus when you run out of tiles to work in your more important cities you can reduce and eventually disband the camps and allow the other cities to grow even more. In the meantime you gain all of the production and commerce from the camp cities while they exist. It's a win-win situation. You can later disband these cities to allow others to grow to size 12 and beyond when raw production from individual cities is more important in order to build the expensive ICBMs and spaceship parts. But in the early game closer city spacing is important in order to make the most of your land.

City placement also has something to do with the type of game you're playing and your game situation. If you're by yourself on a landmass or for some reason have no reason to fear a war, you can build your cities a bit further apart with long-term potential in-mind. Or when war is a constant threat a close city spacing for greater production in the short-term and the ability to transfer garrisons between cities in a single turn becomes more of an advantage. Terrain can also affect city spacing, with marsh, mountain and generally unproductive terrain needing special consideration.

5 Food Per Turn - The Golden Number

5 food per turn (fpt) is a very important benchmark for cities to reach. It allows a city with no Granary to grow in 4 turns, but even more importantly it allows a city WITH a Granary to grow in only 2. The applications of this are very powerful and can help in a variety of ways.

A city capable of growing in only 2 turns is a very useful city indeed. Their best application is in the creation of Worker or Settler pumps. Workers are 10 shields, and Settlers are 30, making it easy to time the completion of these units with growth in these cities as long as they don't suffer from extreme corruption.

Worker Pump

A Worker Pump is a city designed for the production of Workers. The ideal early Worker pump has a Granary (60 shields), and is capable of 5 fpt and 5 spt. Additionally, it is often best if it is a larger size (4 through 6) so that it can generate a fair amount of commerce while building Workers.

A town size 6 or below has a food box of 10 when the Granary is full. This means 5 fpt means the city grows in 2 turns. And since Workers are 10 shields at 5 spt the Worker also completes in 2 turns. The effect of this is that the city size stays constant, always generating the same amount of food, shields and commerce every turn that it's used as a pump.

The Workers, once created, can be used for the variety of usual purposes. One advantage of Worker pumps later on in the game is to increase the size of cities 7 and above, which have a much larger food box and take longer to grow. Just add a Worker from a pump every few turns and your cities will grow much faster than they ever could on their own.

Settler Pump

A Settler Pump has a configuration similar to that of a Worker Pump, but a couple things are different. Like a Worker Pump, a Settler Pump should have a Granary and capable of 5 fpt in order to achieve 2-turn growth. However, one difference is the shields necessary. Settler Pumps are designed to create a Settler every 4 turns, which means the city needs to be able to generate 8 spt in order to complete the 30 shield Settlers to match the growth of the city. Instead of the city size remaining static like with Worker Pumps, the Settler Pump will increase 1 population while building each Settler, which has added issues like new city laborers being able to work new tiles and keeping new population happy.

Settler Pumps are most useful early on in the game when a civ is undertaking a large expansion effort and there is a lot of empty space that needs to be filled. This early there are usually only a couple cities capable of 5 fpt and 8 spt and have a Granary, which means one of the core cities will have to be dedicated to this effort. However, with a Settler every 4 turns, it's well-worth the investment when you have a lot of space.

Okay, that's it for my strategy/rant thread. Please post any comments or observations or anything else you want to with regards to this subject.

Ok, let's give the ingredients for this particular start.
Irrigated wheat + city center on river = 5 food surplus.
2 mined BG + 2 mined grass + forest = 30 shields in 4 turns starting at pop 4.
MM needed is just to take the laborer from the forest (where it will be put automatically) to a mined grass every 2 turns.
Other bonuses on the other side of the river may make it even easier, but that's what we see already just looking on the image.

Edit: I made a mock up of the starting position. Just load this game, if you want a training session.
Training save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Maya_cotm4_training.SAV)

This link give the basis of the Starting Opening play from cracker.

http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/cracker/civ3_starts/index.htm

Here is an excel file for the terrain basis:



LeSphinx

@ klarius: in other words, no need for a Granary, right?

For me a granary is a must have in order to keep the city grows each 2 turns as specified in the article "The Case For Food - Or, How to Become Economically Dominant" by Trip in the War academy.
Reading the Forums, a lot of players recommand to have a granary in the Settler factory cities.
LeSphinx

@ klarius: in other words, no need for a Granary, right?
A granary is always needed for a settler factory.
That should have been clear by all the wordy other posts.
I just noted the tile improvements necessary.

Gotta stop reading forums when I'm at work :)

Wow. Thanks, guys... I knew I could count on some help... but so FAST!
Now I'm really psyched for this COTM.
I recently moved up to monach after being on regent for awhile. Plus, I have to admit that I am a reloader at this point (mostly after those culture-flips that I despise). Still, I just did the classic GOTM 34 and since it was at a reasonable difficulty level, I finished it without reloading (culture flips and all); so I submitted it for the first time (very satisfying, I have to say). So I am looking forward to some good games in the future.
I would also plead for some more lower-diffulty GOTMS, since the higher levels are still frustrating for me. I think this is what prevents alot of newer players from participating. Is it feasible to offer the GOTM at different DIFFICULTY levels instead of Conquest/Open/Predator? That would be ideal.
Either way, this is an awesome site.
(My user name is sort of a homophone for my occupation. I heard it from my chief resident when I was in medical school, who said it with disdain when he learned what I wanted to specialize in. I'm an OB-GYN, so I am often up late at night waiting for patients to deliver - what better opportunity to play Civ, right?)

(My user name is sort of a homophone for my occupation. I heard it from my chief resident when I was in medical school, who said it with disdain when he learned what I wanted to specialize in. I'm an OB-GYN, so I am often up late at night waiting for patients to deliver - what better opportunity to play Civ, right?)
haha, that's great :lol: well, i guess i'd rather have my wife's doctor playing civ than drinking lots of wine (that's what happened with my 1yr old :rolleyes: ). luckily, no harm done as he was almost all 10's.

good luck! once you start MM'ing, you'll never stop :)

A granary is always needed for a settler factory.

That's not quite true. Without a granary you would need +10 food rather than +5. That doesn't happen too often, but it's possible :mischief:.

That's not quite true. Without a granary you would need +10 food rather than +5. That doesn't happen too often, but it's possible :mischief:.
Sure it's possible, but you need then a few cows in the mix to scrape together the shields.
In this case one should look, if one can maybe even get to a 3-turn settler factory with granary :cool:, or some fancy combo factory.
If not the additional food boni are better given to other cities, for 2 or 3 factories (not necessarily all 4-turn).

Hi all,

The tiles shown are wonderful so I'm pessimistic that the grass is greener elsewhere. First move will be settler NE and Chichen Itza will be settled on the second turn unless something wonderful shows up.

First build will be a granary to get the settler mill working. Exploring will have to wait.

I am concerned that trying to irrigate the wheat first will leave me shield poor. I'm going to focus on mining and roading the grass bonuses. Getting the granary earlier with the reduced food for growth should make up for irrigating the wheat later. After that, it's workers and settlers for the foreseeable future for Chichen Itza.

Research path will be the typical Alphabet, Writing, Code of Laws, Philosophy, Republic (free) at max.

Hook 'Em :rockon:

I'll be building a couple of warriors before the Granary. My test games seem to indicate that this is a good idea - otherwise the settlers are going 'blind' and the AI, with its free units, will have a head-start on the heads up of the landscape.

Neil. :cool:

Conversly I think this map looks ripe for a no-warrior gambit. After settling (where ever that may be), build order - granary, settler, warrior, settler, .......

Large map, monarch, restless barbs. I'm pretty sure that Ainwood is telling us to do this.

Hope that I survive the 3000BC's

smackster

I'll be building a couple of warriors before the Granary.
I tend to always build a warrior first now, ever since I got my only city captured in 3150BC in GOTM28 :blush:.

Having never played in the GOTM is my presumption correct that this is the one that will start tomorrow?

I've been considering a break from the SGOTM (see the spoons in the av for the reason)

Yes, it starts on the 1st. When exactly is determined by the graciousness of ainwood. It should be the 1st at his for some time, but it is usually released on the next morning, i.e. in some hours.

Conversly I think this map looks ripe for a no-warrior gambit. After settling (where ever that may be), build order - granary, settler, warrior, settler, .......

A warrior ist best done first. After the first settler there will be several shields wasted. At that time you cannot afford wasted shields, because you will probably not have all tiles improved for the factory and are lacking shields for the next settler already.
Warrior first will delay the granary only by 1-2 turns, because in the end of the granary build you should be at 5+ shields.
A perfectly timed forest cut may even mean no delay at all.
That's all only with the tiles visible. Tiles in the fog could change the argumentation.

It sure would have been nice if Ision would have done one of his great articles on the Mayan for this game. I've never actually used them in a game. This should be fun. Lets just hope I dont have to incoperate an ambulance into my AV :D

A warrior ist best done first. After the first settler there will be several shields wasted. At that time you cannot afford wasted shields, because you will probably not have all tiles improved for the factory and are lacking shields for the next settler already.
Warrior first will delay the granary only by 1-2 turns, because in the end of the granary build you should be at 5+ shields.
A perfectly timed forest cut may even mean no delay at all.
That's all only with the tiles visible. Tiles in the fog could change the argumentation.
Agreed we really need to see the whole picture and then decide the best optimal build order. I would only really skip the first warrior if I could get that first settler out early without too much waste. Then again I've been known to play without thinking before, sometimes its fun to play civ like a real time strat.

smackster

It sure would have been nice if Ision would have done one of his great articles on the Mayan for this game. I've never actually used them in a game. This should be fun. Lets just hope I dont have to incoperate an ambulance into my AV :D

there is an article on the Mayans here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=91429)

If worker stays in place, I would road (since I can't irrigate right off), irrigate, move NW, road BG to bump up gold, move SW, and irrigate wheat. This will irrigate the wheat just as capital expands and can use wheat. Then road wheat, move NE and mine BG, then look for another BG. Roading that first BG will be nice because captial will grow just after it's roaded, giving a non river spot for a citizen to work. With luck there will be a BG on the river as well and production will just zip along.

I have decided my opening moves, my worker will pretty much do what Xevious says, settler will move NE unless we are standing on BG, then maybe N. my reasoning is that we have all we need for the 4 turn settler factory right there, so for the capitol i really dont care or even want additional bonuses, they might be best served in a 2nd or 3rd or 4th city.

as far as production orders, i ran a test and using the above sequence to start worker i built: warrior, warrior, worker, granary (1 cut), settler. At that point my settler factory was up and running fine, i had 2 warriors exploring and 2 workers to really make use of the industrious trait.

if there does turn up luxuries or other bonuses nearby my 2nd or 3rd settler will head there. my 2nd city will become a warrior factory w/ those 2 workers improving it ASAP. basically once i started putting out settler every 4 turns i could not keep up w/ units, so every city will start building warriors (unless i find coast then i'll have to sacrifice warriors for 2 curraghs) until i have 2 warriors in capitol for MP, 3-4 warriors (or 2 warriors / 2 curraghs) exploring, 1 warrior for MP in every other city and one warrior waiting as a settler escort. That will be a lot of warriors needed though, considering about the time my 2nd settler (1st one built) founds a city my next settler will be built, and probably before i can put out that first warrior another settler will be built meaining i will be down 5 warriors. Once i get caught up I'll switch to spearman (provided i get a trade for BW) Of course, I will also be careful not to neglect workers, but having two near the start since I plan to build a second one soon will go a long way.

as far as science, I'll go alphabet all the way to republic slingshot even though i do not normally use republic gov't, i'm going to try it this game. one word to any players not used to large maps. initially, alphabet will take 50 turns to research, however this will quiickly decrease and alphabet can be discovered in 30-35 turns, writing much quicker. In my test I kept science at max, even though this meant running a deficit at times, and got alphabet & writing in about 52 turns, which is much better than going min science for alphabet to start.

a negative in my test was that i did not build enough warirors to start from other cities and around 1200 BC the French were much stronger than I and declared war on me. I had not expanded near their borders yet and I had only even located one French city, they had only located two of my cities, both on the outskirts of my empire. I am hoping to up my warrior output significantly this game to keep that from happening.

a negative in my test was that i did not build enough warirors to start from other cities and around 1200 BC the French were much stronger than I and declared war on me. I had not expanded near their borders yet and I had only even located one French city, they had only located two of my cities, both on the outskirts of my empire. I am hoping to up my warrior output significantly this game to keep that from happening. :hmm: And I thought is was the Roman Legionaries that might cause problems, rather than the french. <shrug>











:mischief:

whats that supposed to mean???? are we to fear the mighty Romans in this game?

:hmm: And I thought is was the Roman Legionaries that might cause problems, rather than the french. <shrug>


well obviously i did not have the same civs since i dont know what they are, but if rome is in the game and near us then i'll have to trade for IW early, prevent them from ever hooking up to any resource close to them if at all possible and launch a javelin thrower invasion to eliminate them. assuming they have not decided to occupy my cities before i can make that happen. are persia and the greeks and the celts also near us?

Before anyone gets too excited, my comment should not be taken as readign that there are romans in the game. I was just being annoying. :)

well you were just that... :P

Maybe Rome has the only iron.

I have a couple of clarificationquestions about the settler pump. I downloaded Klarius' mock-up save (thanks, Klarius) to see if I could get one running, and I eventually did. It went something like this:
(Agricultural Mayan City near a river)
Turns 1,2 - city pop 5 - working irr. wheat, 2 mined Grass, and 2 mined
Bonus Grass (lux on 10% to avoid revolt)
Turns 3,4 - city pop 6 - working same as above, plus micromanged 6th
citizen from forest to an unimproved bonus grass. This allowed me
to get the settler in a total of four turns, but I had to up the lux
to 20% to avoid another revolt)
Is this how it is supposed to work, or can it be streamlined better? I note that it took me a bit of time to set this situation up and running, though I admit it took me awhile to figure out the lux fix.
Afterwards, I noticed that someone mentioned to start with a city pop 4 to get the pump going - is a 4-6 pump better than a 5-7 pump? Why?
(Now I'm thinking that the 2nd mined grass is for the micromanaged citizen taken of of the forest - I'll try that now...)
Also - how do I capture a screen from the game to include in a future post?
Thanks in advance.

About your 5-7 question -- The Granary empties when the city reaches size 7, so a 5-7 Settler pump doesn't work; growth doesn't happen fast enough at size 7. (In addition to the temporary loss of the "granary effect," sizes 7-12 also require double the food of sizes 1-6 to grow, meaning that, even if the Granary stayed in effect, you'd still need 10 fpt for the last two turns of production!)

To take a Screenshot, press "Print Screen" (above "Delete" and "Insert"), then open Paint or Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop, etc. and Paste (Ctrl-V) the screenshot.

Hmmn.. tried the 4-6 pump and it didn't work.
Food came out okay, but it looks like I was a couple of shields short - i.e. given the irrigated wheat, when it came to the mined grasslands, it would have to have been

plus 3 bonus grasslands and 1 regular grassland
instead of 2 bonus grasslands and 2 regular grasslands

Does this sound right, or am I doing something wrong?

Also, I still had to raise lux after 2 turns. Is this pretty much standard, or could I drop another warrior in there to garrison and avoid the lux increase?

hmm, i'm at work so I can't check it and my brain is refusing to do the maths. A second warrior will help to reduce lux tax but get one of your other cities to build it for the cap. Did you check the city every growth to make sure you were squeezing out as many shields as possible while keeping the +5fpt? (I'll attempt the maths again and may post shortly)

Hmmn.. tried the 4-6 pump and it didn't work.
Food came out okay, but it looks like I was a couple of shields short - i.e. given the irrigated wheat, when it came to the mined grasslands, it would have to have been

plus 3 bonus grasslands and 1 regular grassland
instead of 2 bonus grasslands and 2 regular grasslands

Does this sound right, or am I doing something wrong?

Also, I still had to raise lux after 2 turns. Is this pretty much standard, or could I drop another warrior in there to garrison and avoid the lux increase?

With granary full, starting at size 4

size Shields Shields Expanded
4 6 iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1)
4.5 8 iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1), forest(2)
Now micromanage and move citizen from forest to mG (or unminedBG).
5 7 iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1), mG(1)
5.5 9 iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1), mG(1), forest(2)
Total 30

That's the 4-6, and as you can see, you need a forest to make it work. If we get a 3rd mBG then the forest isn't needed. What makes this work is the automatic placement of the citizen on growth to the best production. Because our food surplus is so high, the citizen will be assigned to the forest, giving the immediate 2 shield bonus. You then have to move the citizen off the forest to get back to +5 food (using the forest drops food to +4). I often forget to move the citizen off and lose a turn on the factory. I'll get the settler out in 4 turns, but won't grow at the same time, so you have to pay attention with this. With a third BG we won't have to micromanage (but many still will).

ta xevious, that's why my maths wasn't working, I was forgetting the forrest citizen on growth.

you can use either a 4/6 or a 5/6, the way a 5/6 works is the settler will be produced on the same turn the city would have grown to size 7 and so drops to size 5 and the granary does not empty. this requires less micromanagement most times, but an extra turn of luxury because the city stays at size 6 for 2 turns instead of 1. a danger with a 5/6 is if you make a mistake somehow and do not get your settler out on the 4th turn and your city does actually hit size 7 then when you do get your settler out the granary will be empty meaning and extra 2 turns to fill it.

I prefer a 5/6 because it only needs to be micromanaged every other turn. ;)

About your 5-7 question -- The Granary empties when the city reaches size 7, so a 5-7 Settler pump doesn't work; growth doesn't happen fast enough at size 7. (In addition to the temporary loss of the "granary effect," sizes 7-12 also require double the food of sizes 1-6 to grow, meaning that, even if the Granary stayed in effect, you'd still need 10 fpt for the last two turns of production!)

To take a Screenshot, press "Print Screen" (above "Delete" and "Insert"), then open Paint or Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop, etc. and Paste (Ctrl-V) the screenshot.

Well, that is not strictly correct. If growth on 6 to size 7 gives the necessary shields for a settler (or worker, I suppose), it will drop back down to 5, with the granary still full. I would have been too scared to try it out on my own, but in Jumpmasters 1C we had a 5-7 settler pump going in our capital for awhile. It doesn't seem like it would work, but as long as you never grow to size 7 without producing a settler the same turn, a 5-7 pump works.

Edit: I seem to have been beaten to the punch, though predesad called it a 5-6 pump. Also on rereading, I don't know if I contradicted what you said.

using Klarius "training save" i managed to build warrior, warrior, worker, granary, settler by 2550 (31 turns) w/ no forest cuts and the 4/6 settler pump ready after the first settler was built, i mined one more tile than was needed to get a second grass mined by the river, this is assuming there are grass tiles opposite the river and it looks like there are. this sequence only wastes a total of 4 shields when the granary is built (on a growth turn) and wastes no food whatsoever. Although granary is built when the city grows and is thus empty, but that works out fine for the first settler to take 4 turns while the city grows from 5 to 6.

Well, I wonder if anybody noted that in the save I supplied you can also operate the settler pump starting at size 3.5. :D
Not that it adds much benefit, but it's a nice insurance against the case when you mess up the MM once. :cool:

Well, that is not strictly correct. If growth on 6 to size 7 gives the necessary shields for a settler (or worker, I suppose), it will drop back down to 5, with the granary still full. I would have been too scared to try it out on my own, but in Jumpmasters 1C we had a 5-7 settler pump going in our capital for awhile. It doesn't seem like it would work, but as long as you never grow to size 7 without producing a settler the same turn, a 5-7 pump works. Beware! this does only work when the city can actually grow to size 7! It has to have an aqueduct or be on a river or it will fail.

I prefer a 5/6 because it only needs to be micromanaged every other turn. ;)

Couldn't agree more! I am way too lazy to do MM every turn... ;)

Well, for the MM haters:
If you clean all forests and mine enough grass, you can get a factory on full autopilot.
This works with as little as two mined BGs and three mined regular grass.

What techs do the Mayans start with?

What techs do the Mayans start with?

They're Industrious/Agricultural, so they start with pottery and masonry...

I tend to always build a warrior first now, ever since I got my only city captured in 3150BC in GOTM28 :blush:.

It was so nice of you to do this, though. GOTM28 was the first one I tried, and I might not have had the confidence to submit it if you hadn't. The competition is a little intimidating, and I was lousy. (Now I'm up to "not very good".) Anyway, thanks. This helped me just as much as any strategy article ever written.

Incidentally ainwood, does the Jason score for culture victories take acount of values other than 100K total or 20K for a city?

For Civ/PtW there is a modifier to 100K best date to even things out over mapsizes. Since C3C already does this by requiring different amounts of culture to trigger "100K", those modifiers are taken out for C3C scoring.

For Civ/PtW there is a modifier to 100K best date to even things out over mapsizes. Since C3C already does this by requiring different amounts of culture to trigger "100K", those modifiers are taken out for C3C scoring.
Cool :cool:, thanks for the update Aeson.

size Shields Shields Expanded
4_____6___iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1)
4.5___8___iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1), forest(2)
Now micromanage and move citizen from forest to mG (or unminedBG).
5_____7___iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1), mG(1)
5.5___9___iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1), mG(1), forest(2)
Total 30

I must just be missing something here. In the scheme above, I don't see where you are getting the extra laborer. At size 4.5, you still have only four laborers to use, right? I don't see where you are getting the extra one to work the 5th tile (the forest) on the 4.5 step.

I WAS able to get a pump going with 3 mined bonus grasses, though. Thus, instead of above, my scheme would go:

size__Shields__Shields expanded
4_______7____city(1), iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mBG(2)
4.5_____7____city(1), iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mBG(2)
5_______8____city(1), iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mBG(2)
_____________NOW micromanage to move forest to mG(1)
5.5_____8____city(1), iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1)
Total___30

Am I insane, or am I just missing something easy? I guess the main thing I don't understand is how in the first scheme that you're working five tiles at size 4.5.

(Also, how do I capture a game screen to add to future posts? Maybe that would help me explain.)

On the turn that the town grows from 4 to 5 the 5th labourer is assigned to a tile, and the shields from the 5th labourer get accumulated. You don't get to choose which tile is worked, but if you've set the governor to do shields then the forest is normally chosen.

Edit: Oh, and to get a screen-capture just press the "Print Scrn" button to place the screen in the clipboard, then open your favourite paint package and paste it in.

On the turn that the town grows from 4 to 5 the 5th labourer is assigned to a tile, and the shields from the 5th labourer get accumulated. You don't get to choose which tile is worked, but if you've set the governor to do shields then the forest is normally chosen.

I never touch the governor and it always seem to chose the forest, or spare mined BG for me. Guess whatever weighting it uses by default emphasises shields over food.

smackster

Always set the governor on shields. He will pick the right tile when you grow. As commerce and food are collected before shields this is always correct (ok, it you set a governor to manage citizens mood the may be wrong, but I assume you dont).

I never touch the governor and it works as expected. I've done my fair share of 4-turn settler factories.

Ah- on the in-between-turns they accumulate. (Back to the drawing board.) Thanks everyone.

I often switch the governor off if happiness is going to be a problem and I am using the lux slider. The city does not go into disorder until the turn after the population grows if the governor is off but if the governor is on the new citizen will become an entertainer the turn the pop grows unless you predict the future unhapiness and increase the slider the turn before it grows. This of course uses up more cash than increasing the slider after growth.

No matter if we are Agricultural or not, I will definately found my capitol by the river. Also, I will want to keep the wheat inside the city radius (after expansion), which rules out moving E (the defense-bonus is of no use, since I am not planning on my capitol to be attacked in this game ;) ). This leaves moving N or NE. I will probably want to cram in at least three core cities on the river, with the capitol in the middle. It looks like the river continues a fair bit north, while it may well end in a mountain a tile or two to the south. This leaves founding the capitol 1 tile N as the most likely option for me. But I will send my worker N first to have a look, even though that will waste a worker turn.

-- Roland


Wouldn't moving the worker to the hills east be a better option then if you 'want' to waste a worker turn??

Hmm, but then you waste ext