With cemocracy I mean parliament, elections, true pluralism and maybe more. :)

I would say since the end of the Second Empire, in 1870. It had true democracy in some period before, but it never lasted.

no country except athens has ever been a true democracy.

Are you joking? Around 10% of Athenian population were eligible voters. Women, slaves, and foreigners couldn't vote at all. Although it was amazing or its time it wouldn't be considered a democracy in a modern sense.

A good point, Riesstiu. We associate much more freedom and equality with Democracy than it was historically, so the Greek Democracy was perhaps a modern thing in ancient times, but nowadays it does not look so democratic at all.

It still was the real deal Democracy. Every eligable voter votes and decides the fate of the nation. Most "Democracys" today are a Represenative Democracy. Where eligable voters vote for represenatives to make decisions for them.

After the revolution, there were to many ennemies and to much chaos for the democracy to succeed, and the Empire was hard to avoid. However, there were parliament, elections, and pluralism. So by your initial definition, the first French democracy was 1790, but it didn't last.

In 1870, France was not completly a democracy, because universal sufferage wasn't there.

So 1945 is also an important date, with a new republic (ie constiution), and universal suffrage. However, it was not an efficient democracy, because the government changes way to often, and it was impossible to do long term policies.

The first efficient democracy really came only after De Gaulle new constitution in 1958. In this constitution, the president has more power than in the previous one, but it also was the first time he was directly elected by the whole people of France

Democracy is such a misused word. Virtually every nation that you think is a democracy is in reality a republic. The French have called their governments "Fourth Republic," "Fifth Republic."

Americans, you pledge allegiance to "The Republic for which it stands"

It is all Woodrow Wilson's fault.

Democracy is such a misused word. Virtually every nation that you think is a democracy is in reality a republic. The French have called their governments "Fourth Republic," "Fifth Republic."
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We don't call our governments "4th Republic". There is a new Republic when there is a new constitution, not a new government.

From Wikipedia:

A republic is a form of government (and a state so governed) where a monarch is not the head of state. The word is derived from the Latin res publica, or "public affair", and suggests an ownership and control of the state by the population at large. The concept of democracy, however, is not implicit to that of a republic. The republican form of government may involve a limited democracy, where such rights are available only to a limited group of people. In some cases, a republic may be a dictatorial or totalitarian state. The term is also broad enough to include representative democracies.

A democracy is a form of government under which the power to alter the basic laws and forms of goverment lies with the voting citizenry, referred to as "the people", and all decisions are made by representatives who act by their consent, as enforced by elections and the rule of law. In some cases, democracy is associated with nominal monarchy where the monarch has sharply limited powers, but it is more commonly associated with a republic.

Therefore :
- France and USA are both Republic and Democracy
- United Kingdom is a Democracy but not a Republic
- China is a Republic but not a Democracy.

Pluralism, parliament, and free speech doesn't necessarily make a democracy as we're picturing it today. France was pluralist and there was a parliament and free press during the 2nd Empire but it wasn't truely democratic because the Emperor Napoleon III had still a decisive power, and he wasn't elected, no matter if people were elected on a local level.

The stable French full democracy as we're picturing it today began on the 4th September of 1870 and never ended since then. By the way, I wonder when Britain became a full democracy. When did the King or Queen really became powerless ? Was it already the case under Queen Victoria ?

The stable French full democracy as we're picturing it today began on the 4th September of 1870 and never ended since then.
Yes, but the system wasn't very good, and until 1958, the government wasn't stable at all and resigned extreamly often, the country was hard to run.

Yes, but the system wasn't very good, and until 1958, the government wasn't stable at all and resigned extreamly often, the country was hard to run.It depends what we consider as a democracy Steph. The 3rd Republic worked pretty well from 1870 to 1940, even if there had been tensions here and there because of the Historical events. The 4th republic didn't work at all, we agree on this. However, the 5th republic which began in 1957 isn't perfect still. After all, the government could still pressure state-owned TVs and radios untill the 80's. Well, it's true that Tony Blair had been really strong against the BBC last year in England so what I've just said is pretty irrelevant.

Anyway, to answer to the original post, France became a full democracy with elections at all levels at the end of the second Empire. After that, we can argue about what is truely a democracy. It could involve stability, and women suffrage as you've said it. However, is the 5th republic really that stable knowing that we are both a presidential and a parliament democracy ? The system proved its limits with the "cohabitation" between a government coming from the parliament majority and a powerless president representing the opposition. So maybe we can consider it started in 2002 after the referendum about the 5-year presidential mandate... and still we can't fully consider the thing as solved !

By the way, could we consider Britain as a full democracy knowing that the 2nd parliament, the house of the Lords, is still not elected ?

A good point, Riesstiu. We associate much more freedom and equality with Democracy than it was historically, so the Greek Democracy was perhaps a modern thing in ancient times, but nowadays it does not look so democratic at all.

Actually it was because the definition of true democracy is: Equal rights and freedoms and a vote to choose the leader for every citizen, unfoutunatly the guys on top thougt that women and slaves weren't citizens in their eyes. in fact it is the same situation with recent immagrants in all countries, they can't vote either.

But although they have not the civil rights nor the status of a citizen they have human rights. If immigrants want to vote they have to become citizens of the state. And a modern democracy must grant immigrants the right to become citizens, generally. It is clear that the state has the right to refuse this to special individuums. Slaves did not have any rights.
But the real question is: What is indeed a democracy? If you take it very strong France is not a democracy since 1945. If you take the wider definition it is since 1871. Nevertheless I would support that wider definition.

Adler

Are you joking? Around 10% of Athenian population were eligible voters. Women, slaves, and foreigners couldn't vote at all. Although it was amazing or its time it wouldn't be considered a democracy in a modern sense.

Civil liberties or not, it was the only pure democracy to have ever existed. Today the Swiss system is the most democratic one, but it's no where close the Athenian system.

no country except athens has ever been a true democracy.

I agree.

and after all, Demoncracy was founded/invented/whatever in Athens, so aren't they the ones to tell us what the real demoncracy is?

I would say since the end of the Second Empire, in 1870. It had true democracy in some period before, but it never lasted.

I would agree if anything, however, it's never really had a "true" democracy (which is a good thing) and neither has America.

I would agree with c. 1870-71, beginning with the Third Republic. There have been interruptions since then - most notably with the Vichy regime - but overall it would be accurate to state that France has a relatively unbroken line of democratic government since the Franco-Prussian War.

Arguing what a democracy is is not helpful because you need the added dimension of "when". Relative to the existing democracies of the last 3 decades of the 19th century, how does France stack up? All democracies of that day were less democratic (by purist definitions) than they are today, and all have had their stumbles since.

There has never been a 'true' democracy at any point in history. The Athenians were on the right track, but since there wasn't gender or class equality it can't be called 'true'. The modern system cannot be called 'true' either since it relies on representitives rather than on the view of the people. So the only 'true' democracy, as I see it would be the Athenian system with the modern equality.

There are no PERFECT democracies. I think everybody agree on that. But I think Switzerland was pretty much close to that perfection. That's a pity they broke the "magic formula" :(

In my point of view, most european republics are true democracies. And so are the US, India, South Africa, Brasil,... But I'll never admit a monarchy is a democracy, as weak as the power of the king can be.

The point of a REAL democracy, a population making all decisions themselves, is not practicable for a bigger population. Also the Swiss model lacks. Sometimes the rulers must rule against the population. Otherwise a dictature of the majority would be possible. Only in very important things a plebiscite usefull. Like the EU constitution, the Euro or something like this.
Monarchies are monarchies. Indeed. But as long as the power of the monarch is limited they are on one level with a democracy. Then the only factor, that the head os state isn´t elected can be neglected.
We must see a democracy from the time in which she was/ is. So Athens was a democracy as well as France or Germany in 1871 or today. That there happened big changes is clear. Even if we say the human rights must have a certain level, which Athens lacked, we must say that France is a democracy since 1871.

Adler

With cemocracy I mean parliament, elections, true pluralism and maybe more. :)
True democracy no longer exists as it would very impractical. True democracy would be each and every elligible citizen to vote in enormous plebicites for every issue (laws, treaties, taxes, etc.)