Well, first of all, I have some people to thank again. I want to thank Kinboat again. I forgot to mention this with the last units I released, but he helped me with creating the smoke effect for the gun. Also, I have to give a big thank you to Aluminium, the CFC unit shrinker. My last units were simply too big, so he was kind enough the resize these units before I released them. (He also said that he would shrink the last units I released.) He also reversed the fortify animations to create victory animations. Thank you very much.

Lancer (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Lancer2.zip)

Western Native American Rifleman (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/WesternNR2.zip)

Woohoo!! First post!! Awesome! Much-needed! Thanks :goodjob:

Great! Been waiting for one like this (rifleman) for ages!

Two more sensational units from utahjazz7 :goodjob: !!

Thank-you very much!

Great :) I'll add them asap

Eventually a lancer !!! Great ! Thanx !

Great! I've been waiting for someone to make a Lancer for about 2 years now - many thanks!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :goodjob:

Mighty fine, as always :goodjob: :goodjob:

Thanks,

Oz

This may be something I've suggested before but (except for the tail) the horse seems motionless in the attack - would it look better if it shifted its weight, moved its head, etc? It seems like the horse would be moving around if you were jabbing people with a lance right past its neck (and vice versa!).
Just something you might consider in future units.

Question: How would the Lancer fit into the existing Cavalry line in Civ3?

Two phvxinq awesome units.

Lancer's going in as a pre-Cavalry, post-knight unit.

WNAR's going in as Apache/Navaho UU in 31OCM..

The lancer uniform is more 19th century. So you could use it at the same time as cavalry, but for reduce cost and the only requirement is horse

Sounds good. Make it a tad weaker and cheaper.. but still useful.

Very nice units. I love the "clean" look of your units, utahjazz7. They fit very well in Civ3.

The lancer uniform is more 19th century. So you could use it at the same time as cavalry, but for reduce cost and the only requirement is horse

I thought that lances and other polearms were obsolete by the 19th century?

For European cavalry, lances had almost disappeared during the 18th century. They came back again during the Napoelonic wars, and then were used during the 19th century, and still in WWI.

Could we get a jpg preview, please?

Horray!!!! You got yerself two splendid units there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! @Goldflash, its really worth downloading...

Cool... both of them. :D

Well, here are a couple of .bmp previews. I hope these'll work for whoever needs them.

For European cavalry, lances had almost disappeared during the 18th century. They came back again during the Napoelonic wars, and then were used during the 19th century, and still in WWI.

Really? But wouldn't the Lancer get shot before it could attack?

Really? But wouldn't the Lancer get shot before it could attack?
The Lancers were still to see action in WWII. They didn't lose out until the arrival of portable machine guns and armor with improved battlefield mobility over horses.

weren't they used in WWII by some of the balkan/eastern european (poland) countries?

Really? But wouldn't the Lancer get shot before it could attack?
Obviously, there role wasn't to charge dead on entrenched machineguns.

I was assuming the 19th century Rifles would be enough to render Melee weapons obsolete.

The role of Lancers or Uhlans was to overrun infantry groups (shock attack). The main weapon is not the lance. It's the weight and speed of the horse.

I would give them a higher attack but lower defense than the CIV3 Cavalry. Perhaps sudden attack against foot units too.

The question is... how likely were the Lancers to actually hit the soldiers?

I was assuming the 19th century Rifles would be enough to render Melee weapons obsolete.
The lancer at display here is a napoleonic age soldier. At this time infantry would still fight in line, supported by field artillery positioned behind these, cavalry being used to cover the flanks, to harrass the enemy formations by hit & run tactics, to charge right into the enemy lines, to scout, as well as operating behind the enemy front to attack enemy train columns.

The main weapon for most cavalry of that time was the saber (given a saber is even shorter than a lance I would assume some might now ask if the chance of hitting a soldier would be even smaller). In fact the Saber during the early days of the 19th century was used for running through the opponent- over the decades it would change in weight, dimension, handling and usage to be finally used to slice through infantry while riding past.

Metal weapons worked just nicely!

To contrast the average chance of shooting a charging lancer with a rifle of napoleonic days just picture yourself trying to shoot a motorcyclist on a yamaha with an M-16...

The question is... how likely were the Lancers to actually hit the soldiers?

The lancers generally charged once enemy ranks had been 'disirganized' by the enemy line or artillery, or attacked from flank or rear positions, rather than charging into an organized line of enemy musketmen.

The reason those soldiers fought in line, aiming and firing en masse, was that the weapons were horribly inaccurate. One mass of humanity firing at another mass of humanity was able to hit something, but hitting individual targets was pretty improbable.

The real question is, how likely were the poor foot soldiers - their ranks disorganized, broken, or struck from a flank - to hit those charging lancers and stop those deadly sabers... I'd be tempted to give lancers a zone of control along with a high attack/low defense to simulate those sudden attacks...

Ah the WNR is much appreciated, thanks a lot.

The lancers generally charged once enemy ranks had been 'disirganized' by the enemy line or artillery, or attacked from flank or rear positions, rather than charging into an organized line of enemy musketmen.

The reason those soldiers fought in line, aiming and firing en masse, was that the weapons were horribly inaccurate. One mass of humanity firing at another mass of humanity was able to hit something, but hitting individual targets was pretty improbable.

The real question is, how likely were the poor foot soldiers - their ranks disorganized, broken, or struck from a flank - to hit those charging lancers and stop those deadly sabers... I'd be tempted to give lancers a zone of control along with a high attack/low defense to simulate those sudden attacks...

Unfortunately, however, combined arms in Civ leave something to be desired... Lancers then are only effective to deal the final blow against an already "softened" enemy. In a head-on engagement with infantry, they don't stand a chance! The first volley would mow them down, and unless they closed before the musketeers had a chance to reload, a second volley would finish them.

The lancer at display here is a napoleonic age soldier.
Not necessarily. This kind of lancers were re introduced during the Napoleonic wars, or just before, but were still in used (France or English army for instance) during the first half of the 19th century.

During Napoleonic wars, lancers with similar uniforms were used by France, Poland, Russia.
Prussian and Austrian lancers were slighlty different, England did not use any.

Here are some pictures of Prussian light cavalry (Uhlans = Lancers)

You can see a lot of other plates on this site :
www.histofig.com - Uniformes (http://www.histofig.com/history/empire/index.html)

Not necessarily. This kind of lancers were re introduced during the Napoleonic wars, or just before, but were still in used (France or English army for instance) during the first half of the 19th century.

During Napoleonic wars, lancers with similar uniforms were used by France, Poland, Russia.
Prussian and Austrian lancers were slighlty different, England did not use any.
And in which wars were lancers fielded in between the end of the Napoleonic wars and 1948 ?? I simply named the age this unit originates from according to its uniform style and tactical employment.
Napoleon copied the Polish style to a T and incorporated many a Polish Ulan regiments into his Grand Army. The Uniforms during those days were prone to adaptations as France re-equiped its allies' armies with French style wear, a process that was reversed after the revolution(s) of 1948, when more and more practical modifications were made to military uniforms- from the 1840s onwards the trend in uniforms turned more to the "German" look, with cavalry units remaining traditional adaptation laggards.

@Makel-loos: Hey, I got the very same book :)

The famous Polish lancers of the Napolonic Guard did not actually have a lance at the beginning. They took it after defeating Austrian Uhlans (Austria really was the country that kept the tradition alive) only.

About wars in which they fought :

- Krimean War (light brigade charge, I a pretty sure there was at least one lancier troop).
- Mexico : Maximilian used French cavalry using the lance.

Generally most of the wars of the second French Empire (and Napoleon raged quite a few !) between 1851 - 1870.

The English used them mostly overseas (India and against the Zulus).

France and Germany soon lost their lanciers during WWI but there were many still in the Russian army and after 1918 in the Polish army.

The famous Polish lancers of the Napolonic Guard did not actually have a lance at the beginning. They took it after defeating Austrian Uhlans (Austria really was the country that kept the tradition alive) only.

Interesting, didn't know that :)


About wars in which they fought :

- Krimean War (light brigade charge, I a pretty sure there was at least one lancier troop).
- Mexico : Maximilian used French cavalry using the lance.
- Generally most of the wars of the second French Empire (and Napoleon raged quite a few !) between 1851 - 1870..

Exactly after those uniforms depicted had dissapeared: There were no mayor wars pre-1848 were the unit depicted could have been employed.


The English used them mostly overseas (India and against the Zulus).

France and Germany soon lost their lanciers during WWI but there were many still in the Russian army and after 1918 in the Polish army.

In fact the first Military formation to cross the (neutral!) Belgian border in 1914, and thus starting the active phase of WWI, were German lancers, Ulans of the 2. and 4. cavalry divisions. They were embushed by local villagers and burned down the village of Battice. Later cavalry was mostly fielded against the Russians in the Baltic States and Russia- splendid terrain for cavalry operations in a time when motorized vehicles were scarce.

Great units, Utah :)

Prussia created a first Ulhan regiment in 1741, but soon converted it into a hussar regiment (the 4th).
Then, a new regiment was created in 1745.

For Austria, the first regiment was created in 1784.

Russia had 4 regiment of "pikineéry" started 1765, then 6 in 1776.

After the Napoleonic wars, france created 6 lancer regiments in 1831, and 2 mores in 1837 (Napoleon's lancer had been disbanded).

France took part in the civil war in Spain, intervened in Mexico, Greece, in the Crimea war, against Prussia in 1870, and also had a lot of fighting in the colonies

England created its first 4 lancers regiments in 1816 (because of the valor of their French opponents).
English cavalry fought in Crimea, and mainly in the colonies (India)

Prussia kept 8 Ulhan regiments.

Side note:

Utahjazz7's ulhan presents several features. The traditional polish chapska, the plum in the middle, and not on the side, and the facing of the coat in a different color. That only country I've found that combine these elements was Russia.

However, the uniform could be used for France (Napoleon's guard, or first half of 19th century lancer), Austria (Napoleonic), England (after 1816), Russia, and Poland.

I'd like to point out that lancers were used in the Mexican campaign from 1860 to 1867. I don't think they were all that successful though.

I'd like to point out that lancers were used in the Mexican campaign from 1860 to 1867. I don't think they were all that successful though.

... especially in the movie Vera Cruz !

... especially in the movie Vera Cruz !


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I just saw that movie last week. That's what made me think of it!

Have yet to use them, but I always like native american units, especially for the later ages. (I already have a native rilfe fellow, so I think I'll do something bold and use him as infantry. Maybe they Iroquoi will have more luck in civ3) Thanks

"My last units were simply too big, so he was kind enough the resize these units before I released them. (He also said that he would shrink the last units I released.) "

I am a big proponent of unit shrinking. Well, of having other people shrink units. Which were your last?

Ulans, where originally a Polish formation starting in the early 1700(1715 If I recall) It was an adaptation of traditional Polish Light cavalry from the 15-1600's with some of the inspiration going to another formation of the Polish army, Tartar Bosniaks. When the first Ulan formations where entering the Army Poland's king was also the elector of Saxony. It was the Saxons who used a few formations of Ulans in the War of Austrian Succesion and other wars where the did meat Prussian units. The Prussians attempted to make their own formations, but as said before converted them into Hussars. The Comte de Saxe also had a few formations of Ulans which is where the french first saw them. The Ulans where ment to take the place of Polands long since dwindiling Husaria formations, who at the time where scarce. The tactics for the Polish army was the striking arm, After bombardment from artillary a charge of Ulans was to take place, supported by other formations of Cavalry, this was because Poland's military did not like using traditional line infantry mainly because of the need to travel larger distances, with one army, since Polish congress was always suspecious of a king with a loyal and large standing army. The headgear, the Rogatiewka, was adopted by the Ulans in between the 2nd and 3rd Partitions, it was just the headgear(czapka means hat in Polish, which was eventualy called Chapka or Chapska in other European countries) it was the traditional hat of the Citizens who lived in Krakow, and at the time, a symbol of Koscuiszko's revolutionary ideas(I.E. All people are equal from the Nobles on hte horses to the peasents in the fields). The Ulans where the main fighting force in the Polish Insurection against the 3rd Partition. Tactics at that time generally followed Massive Bombardment with Cannons(Poland at the time had many more cannons than muskets, since cannon foundries where in the lands still held, Musket factories where usally in lands that where previously partitioned) after bombardment charge by the cav(Namely Ulans, and Hussars, or the occasional Dragoons), then a "Mop-Up" by the Scytheneers(Peasents armed with "war syths"). A few Battles where won this way, but eventually the superiour manpower of Russia and Prussia won threw and in 1795 Poland ceased to exist.

By Napolenic times Polish Ulans where easily recruited into Nappy's army since they wanted to liberate their homeland. Many where veterans of the war with Prussia and Russia, and many still fought with their older uniforms(later Frenchinized to one similar to the one given here). The lance was a potent weapon because it outreached Bayonetts, as well as the Sabers/broadswords carried by most other cavalry and on more than one occasion they ripped threw infantry fairly easily. As said before lancers where used until WW1 in their traditional roles. By the end of WW1 cavalry basicly became pretty much the same in all but name in most countries. From 1919-1920 the Polish Soviet War raged and both sides used alot of cavalry, armed with Cold steel simply because of lack of ammunition, but optimily the units where armed with Rifles, and other infantry weapons. By 1930 Polish Cavalry(Ulans, Mounted Rifles, and Light Horse where basicly all the same, except in name) stopped using the Lance as a battlefield weapon, and only used it for parades. Some did go in wagons with the cav when WW2 broke out and where used by the cavarly generally to good succes in the few charges that did take place(All the charges that did take place where also against infantry targets and never against tanks), but the prefered way to fight was dismounted in a fixed position with all the supporting weapons of the Cavalry brigade.

Ohh if anyone was interested, this is a good painting that shows the Polish Ulan uniform of the late 1700's. It is pretty much the same uniform used threwout the 1700's but most of the Ulans are wearing the Rogatiewka(Square Hat) thats how you can tell which are the Ulans.

http://www.pinakoteka.zascianek.pl/kossak_w/images/Przysiega_Kosciuszki.jpg

You mean the elector of Saxony had become king of Poland...

Yes Augustus Wettin became King of Poland a short time before 1700. Poland was a Aristocratic Republic from around 1460-1795. All kings where elected, and the Polish Congress(Seym in Poland) had a tendancy to elect foreign kings since the idea was "A native king could gain too much strength, but a foreign king may put us into foreign politics we can always chase him out, and he has to come to us for permission to raise an army."

Polish "gentry"(For lack of a better term) where the driving force behind the nation, and the Magnates where the leaders, the kings had little power, and the standing armies where generally small(For a nation the size of Poland) and the height of its power the standing armies never usally reached over 30,000 men.

Augustus Wettin became king with some odd trickery. Jan Sobieski had just died, and traditionaly the kings son would be elected had he choosen to run, and so long as he was in the country. Jakob Sobieski was detained in Saxony on his way to Poland. So the Seym elected the "French Cantidate" Francois Louis de Bourbon, Prince de Conti. But Saxon troops detained him in Gdansk(Danzig). So Wettin bribed some members of the seym and they held a secret election electing him king. After a small uprising it was accepted and he immediatly got Poland envolved in the Northern War against Sweden by allying with Russia and Denmark. After Augustus died Stanislaw Leszczynski was elected and Augustus' Son felt short changed and that began the "War for Polish Succesion" which Augustus' son was eventually put on the Throne of Poland.

I just tried out the units, and actually for a change, I noticed the native rifleman was pretty tiny, as compared to the standard rifleman. After checking out most of Firaxis's units, I've notice theirs are of vastly differering sizes too. (The warrior is real short, strange for a cave man type. The modern units get real short, with the infantry being aleast a third shorter than medieval units. So I guess the imortant thing is that when making a unit that is makine sure it measures up to its peers of the same era.

compare their size to the unit your going to replace or add on with.

ex. longbowman and crossbowman or something.

I just tried out the units, and actually for a change, I noticed the native rifleman was pretty tiny, as compared to the standard rifleman. After checking out most of Firaxis's units, I've notice theirs are of vastly differering sizes too. (The warrior is real short, strange for a cave man type. The modern units get real short, with the infantry being aleast a third shorter than medieval units. So I guess the imortant thing is that when making a unit that is makine sure it measures up to its peers of the same era.

Nah, I think I disagree about the size of these units. I don't have custom units in CivIII right now, but I have looked at the units in FLICster. The Western Native Rifleman looks to me to be maybe one pixel shorter than the standard rifleman. I think that Aluminium did a great job sizing these units.

I have noticed though that the size of the Firaxis units vary quite a bit--especially from the original to the expansion packs. In general, I think that the Conquests units are larger than the originals.

Would this lancer work for a Polish UU?

Would this lancer work for a Polish UU?

Hmm . . . I honestly have no idea. Perhaps someone else could answer.

Would this lancer work for a Polish UU?


I guess it could. More nations did use the lancer formations, but it could be argued that since Poland formed them and paid more attention to them(generally) that it could be a unique unit. I think most people would generally use a Husaria unit(Winged Hussar, Which I believe has also been done){Personally I dont really think this unit fits too good into the Civ 3 style era, as it was a baroque age Cav unit, which isnt really represented in Civ 3). Personally I usally use the Polish WW2 Cavalry, or a slightly modified version of the French parachutist from Balou(I tried to put in the Beryl assault rifle as opposed to the FA-MAS) for my Polish unique units. But I would think you could use a lancer as a Polish Unique unit, it does fit more into the game time frame than the Husaria.

It can work OK for Poland. But at the time Ulhan were around, Poland existed only for a short time, as Napoleon's ally.

However, the uniform is of typically Polish origin, so for a what if Poland exists as a civ in the 19th century, this unit is great.

Wyrmshadow strayed from his airforce & navy productions to make a fine Polish lancer. Get it at:

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?t=7419

-Oz

I think the Winged Hussar --> Lancer --> Polish Cavalry (Wyrmshadow) would make for an ideal Polish flavor unit line. But the real 'Unique Unit' has to be the Winged Hussar of which suprisingly we don't have a good one yet :(

Exactly after those uniforms depicted had dissapeared: There were no mayor wars pre-1848 were the unit depicted could have been employed.

You are wrong. There was no sudden abandonment of Napoleonic-style uniforms at 1848, certainly not in the UK. During the Crimean War (1854-56), the British 17th Lancers rode into battle at Balaklava wearing uniforms almost indistinguishable from the ones pictured*. During the same battle, British hussars** were wearing brightly-coloured dolmans together with busby and pelisse. If anything, the British cavalry uniforms worn into battle during the period 1848 to 1880 were more elaborate and "Napoleonic" than those worn in 1815.

* Plenty of good pictorial references to illustrate this, including Elizabeth Butler's (near contemporary) paintings - "The return From Balaklava" was painted in 1876.

** The 11th Hussars rode into the valley of death wearing bright cherry-coloured breeches, largely because their Colonel (the Earl of Cardigan) thought the colour looked splendid.

I think the Winged Hussar --> Lancer --> Polish Cavalry (Wyrmshadow) would make for an ideal Polish flavor unit line. But the real 'Unique Unit' has to be the Winged Hussar of which suprisingly we don't have a good one yet :(


Even so I wouldnt call the Husaria the real "Unique Unit" it really was more of an adaptation of the Hungarian Hussar, the Lancer was a true formation unique to Poland. But Like I said before when I make my civ, Poland usally gets Wyrmshadow's WW2 cav, or a modified version of Balou's Parachutist as the unique units, I could go into more detail as to why I picked these units, and what their stats are in my games, but that would go quite a bit off-topic.

Completely true (and I'll get back to topic after this) but Poland's 'Golden Age' was probably 16th to early 17th century - perfect for the Winged Hussar to start a 'golden age' if you play that way. The others as flavor units can be 'unique' too ;) !

I think the Winged Hussar --> Lancer --> Polish Cavalry (Wyrmshadow) would make for an ideal Polish flavor unit line. But the real 'Unique Unit' has to be the Winged Hussar of which suprisingly we don't have a good one yet :(


;) :mischief:

;) :mischief:

:D ;) :goodjob:

What do all those faces mean?

What do all those faces mean?

:lol: I was riffing on what I presumed was DP's thinly veiled clue that he was At Work On Something.

So:

:D = Got it
:) = Makes me happy
:goodjob: = "So, another superb 'surprise' on your part!"

:) ,

Oz

Okay, DPII's supposed to me making it. Good. I thought you guys might be hinting that I should make it. Whew!

Okay, DPII's supposed to me making it. Good. I thought you guys might be hinting that I should make it. Whew!

Nope -- well, personally anyway, I'd only ask nicely ...

-Oz

Both great!

Yeah, I've been contemplating the Winged Hussar for quite some time now... actually, I'm really surprised that no one has done it already.

I've actually thought about it before too, but I've just never done it. Mounted units take too much effort! :)

Utahjazz...any luck with the Polynesian Swordsman? If you don't want to do him, I'll probably try my hand at him eventually once I get Poser 4 in a few months.

Utahjazz...any luck with the Polynesian Swordsman? If you don't want to do him, I'll probably try my hand at him eventually once I get Poser 4 in a few months.

I tried to send you a pm, but your box was full. Anyway, I don't think I want to do him. It would take some effort to make the unit, and I don't really like the unit enough to put that much time into it.

Piernik made a Winged Hussar years ago. It's part of the Poland-Mod.

:eek:

I have never seen this unit ever! What other stuff did he make??

Some quite good future units and excellent Leaderheads.

Piernik made a Winged Hussar years ago. It's part of the Poland-Mod.

Where can that unit be found? Is it available for individual download or only as part of the Poland mod?

Where can that unit be found? Is it available for individual download or only as part of the Poland mod?

Part of the mod or not, I think it's well worth downloading just to get a hold of it! :D

It's in the Unit section of GIDustins Web Site (http://www.civ3files.com/cgi-bin/Main.cgi?Page=Civ3ShowUnits&Start=500&SortBy=1&Reverse=0&PerPage=20&Previews=1).

Piernik's sig says "Back in October, 2004..." hopefully he shall return to the Civ community...