Conquest 04: First Spoiler [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

grs

Sep 05, 2004, 04:14 PM

Open

I started as I said in the pre-game discussion by moving the worker nw. It revealed another bonus grassland and the river continuing nw. I had two reasons to do so: 1st I did not believe in a river near the wheat - just because nothing indicated it and why should I make a wild guess when the start was already that good? 2nd I was going for a 20k culture win and there was no need for me to irrigate the wheat anyhow. I would not ever build a granary - besides the big one - so +4 food and one more shield was not worse than +5 food, as I need 20 food for growth and it devides by 4 or 5. After that I would be above size 6 anyways.

Settler went ne and settled on the river. The alternative settling n, would (from what I could see then) make me miss one bg. I wanted forests and hills in my capital - which will serve as the 20k city - so ne was the obvious choice for me.

My building plans:

Build some warriors to explore, early temple, one settler from the capital then start on wonders. I aimed for the following ancient age wonders (while building all 3 cultural improvements of course): The Pyramids, The Oracle, The Mausoleum of Mausolos, The Great Library, The Hanging Gardens.

My research plans:

Get the needed techs to build wonders in time while doing an extremely delayed Republic Slingshot. To be specific: ceremonial burial - mysticism - alphabet - writing - code of laws - philosophy - republic - literature and then, after getting techs from The Great Library, the rest of the ancient age techs.

How it worked out:

Research was set to ceremonial burial at max, then mysticism at max. From F10 it would be far more probable to buy alphabet than ceremonial burial or mysticism soon. I built 2 warriors then started the pyramids as pre-build for a temple. After that I slotted in a 3rd warrior, to get growth and production in line for the settler, who was next.

First contacts were the Aztechs in 3350BC and I got warrior code + 10g for Masonry. I did this mainly for the 10 gold, I needed to keep research at max after having the temple drain maintenance. In 3250BC I met the Americans who already had ceremonial burial, which I learned myself two turns later. Spain was met in 2630BC. Spain had alphabet but would not trade for anything I had until I learned mysticism in 2270BC. I traded mysticism, pottery, masonry for alphabet + 10 gold to Spain. This may seem a horrible trade, but all I wanted was alphabet and as much gold as I can get. As I had a hard time getting barb huts (only two in the whole game) I needed the gold, so I could keep research up.

I then researched writing, code of laws and philophy at max and completed the Republic Slingshot in 1025BC, then started on literature after which research was switched off. I did not revolt immediately, because I still was in my golden age from building The Pyramids. I meanwhile met the Iroquis in 1575BC. I revolted in 800BC and became a republic in 690BC.

I had a short war for land with the Aztechs, because they placed a city two turns before my settler was in postion. There was only 1 reg warrior which was killed by one of my javelin throwers. I killed two more units and made straight peace in 850BC. I got bronze working, the wheel, iron working, horseback riding, polytheism and monarchy from the Great Library in 350BC, researched costruction and currency and entered the middle ages in 170BC.

Settling:

After exploring I planned for an inital core of 7 cities, claiming silks, spices, horses and iron. I razed the Aztech town next to the horses without knowing it and rushed a settler for the iron once it appeared on the map. I completed my "expansion" phase in 250BC.

Exploring:

I used the 3 initial warriors to explore the land and built about a dozen suicide curraghs to meet civs on another continent. I was successfull around 250BC and stoped building ships from then on. All other curraghs were sunk by barbs later on, but the one that successfully crossed and which I upgraded over time was kept till the end of the game.

Culture buildings in Chichén Itza:

Palace 3950BC
Temple 3050BC
Pyramids 1450BC
Oracle 1075BC
Mausoleum 825BC
Great Library 370BC
Library 310BC
Colosseum 250BC

I missed the Hanging Gardens which were surprisingly completed by the Americans in 390BC. They had to switch their Temple of Artemis build after another civ completed that. I am quite sure some AI got that tech from a hut, but who knows the ways of the AI. I started the Great Wall instead and finished it a few turns into the middle ages.

Roland Ehnström

Sep 05, 2004, 04:16 PM

COTM04_Open

In short: A good start for me! The only bad thing was that the Americans beat me to the nice grassland+river location NE of Chichén Itza, when my Settler was going that way (2190 BC). At the end of the Ancient Times I am leading in tech, territory and population, and have a decent military. We've hooked up the Spices and the Silks, and we have both Horses and Iron. It's looking very good for the future!

*** Ancient Times ***

4000 BC - Worker W to Wheat. Sees coast further W. Settler NE.

3950 BC - Settler founds Chichén Itza. Our scientists start researching Alphabet at 20% (50 turns).

3800 BC - Worker starts Road.

3650 BC - Our first Warrior meet the Atztecs. We trade our knowledge of Masonry for Warrior Code and 10 Gold with them.

3450 BC - We meet the Americans, who wander in from the north. They have Alphabet, but won't trade it for Warrior Code and 45 Gold. But they do accept to trade Ceremonial Burial for Warrior Code.

3000 BC - Copán founded. We trade Ceremonial Burial for Bronze Working with the Aztecs.

2590 BC - Chichén Itza completes Granary, opens 4-6 Settler factory (or perhaps it's called 4-5, as the town never reaches size 6 for a full turn). Settlers are pumping out every 4 turns from now on, with some micro-management).

2350 BC - We discover Alphabet.

2230 BC - Spain drops in from the north. We have exactly the same techs, so no trade is possible. Palenque founded on the coast.

2190 BC - Damn, the Americans found a town where our fourth Settler was going! Aztecs have The Wheel, but we won't trade Alphabet to them just yet.

2070 BC - The Spaniards have Iron Working, but we have nothing to offer them.

2030 BC - Our fourth Settler founds Tikal. Our fifth Settler founds Yaxchilán.

1990 BC - The Carib tribe teaches us Mysticism! The Aztecs will not accept Mysticism and 49 Gold for The Wheel. Neither do the Spaniards for Iron Working.

- After the first 2000 years we are in the lead in score. We also lead in population (18% of total world population). We have 5 Towns, a total of 11 Pop, 2 Workers and 4 Warriors. Not surprisingy, our military is "weak" compared to the others we have met, but we are technologically advanced. Writing is due in 9 turns.

1950 BC - Chichén Itza completes our sixth Settler and now starts some 2-turn Workers.

1910 BC - Copán completes Granary, starts Warrior.

1830 BC - Palenque completes our firsth Curragh, which heads north along the east coast. Our sixth Settler founds Bonampak in the Desert south of the Spices.

1750 BC - We get Iron Working and 20 Gold from the Spaniards for Mysticism. Then we get The Wheel for Iron Working, Mysticism and 11 Gold from the Aztecs. We have Horses secured under Palenque, nice! There is Iron 3 tiles W, NW of Copán. We'll send our next Settler that way.

1725 BC - We've hooked up the Spices. Yaxchilán completes it's Curragh, which moves north along the west coast. Yaxchilán starts Javelin Thrower, to keep an eye on the Barbarian Camp south of the town.

1675 BC - We discover Writing. Start Code of Laws (14 turns).

1625 BC - The Americans start building The Oracle.

1575 BC - Lagartero founded next to the Iron.

1500 BC - Our Curragh on the west coast is sunk by a Barbarian Galley. We meet the Iroquois - they are backwards.

1400 BC - The Iron is hooked up.

1375 BC - We discover Code of Laws. Philosophy is 6 turns away. We found Quiriguá and Calakmul in the north, trying to cut the Americans and Spaniards off the north-western peninsula. Of course, I doubt that they'll care about not walking on our soil to get there...

1225 BC - We discover Philosophy, and get The Republic as a bonus. Our Civilization is descending into Anarchy. We trade Philosophy for Mathematics and 108 Gold with the Spaniards.

1200 BC - Lazapa founded to the north-east, wedging in to the American land.

1175 BC - Kaminaljuyú founded in the middle of the north-western peninsula. Our Curragh takes the plunge towards promising seas, but disappointingly finds no land on the other side.

1150 BC - Our Curragh lives, and returns to shore.

1125 BC - The Aztecs kill the Barbarians in "our" Camp!

1100 BC - After a 5-turn Anarchy, we are a Republic. Piedras Negras founded on the west coast. We are currently researching Currency, which is due in 7 turns.

1075 BC - We get Horseback Riding and 33 Gold from America for Philosophy. We still have a monopoly on Code of Laws.

1000 BC - Uaxactún founded W of our capital.

QSC stats:

13 Towns
39 Pop

1 Settler
6 Workers (yes, too few, but Chichén Itza is now pumping out Workers every 2 turns)
7 Warriors
2 Javelin Throwers
1 Curragh

3 Barracks
2 Temples
2 Granaries

All Ancient age techs except Currency (due in 3 turns), Construction, Map Making, Polytheism, Literature and Monarchy

Republic Goverment
4 contacts (Aztecs, America, Spain and Iroquois)
92 Gold

http://www.ehnstrom.se/roland/diverse/COTM04_1000BC.jpg

950 BC - Currency discovered. We are now Code of Laws, Currency and The Republic ahead of everyone else on the continent, and even Philosophy ahead of Iroquois and Aztecs.

900 BC - Cuello founded down in the south west. Our people want to build Forbidden Palace. Copán is already building a little pre-build for this, and switches.

825 BC - We give the Aztecs Philosophy, Code of Laws and a little gold for Map Making.

730 BC - The Americans complete The Oracle in Washington.

650 BC - We discover Construction and start researching Polytheism. The Iroquois demand Philosophy as a tribute. We think hard about it, and finally decide to give it to them. We have no interest in fighting the Iroquios at this moment (our sights are secretly set on America, for now), and Philosophy isn't worth much now anyway.

630 BC - Iroquios complete Mausoleum of Mausollos in Salamanca.

570 BC - The annoying Aztecs demand Currency as a tribute. We're already sending our main military north east to invade America, so we have to give in to Montezuma's demands. We'll get them for this... Oh yes, we'll get them for this... We sell Currency to the other civs for whatever they can pay (otherwise, Aztecs would surely do it, and we don't want them to make money from OUR tech!). By hiring a bunch of scientists, we get Polytheism down to 1 turn.

550 BC - Copán completes Forbidden Palace. WE DISCOVER POLYTHEISM AND ENTER THE MIDDLE AGES!

An even more detailed version of the log up until 1000 BC is attached to this post.

-- Roland

Sandman2003

Sep 05, 2004, 05:47 PM

Open

Early moves, as per pre-game spoiler, were settler NE, worker road then irrigate where he stood, and then on to the wheat. The early builds were warrior, worker, warrior, granary, settler. There was an obvious 4-turn settler pump up for grabs which I did not see any point in deviating from. At some point during the expansion phase, I missed reallocating the forest tile after an expansion, resulting in a drop of pop to the three level. I think this may have changed the settler pump into a five turn factory from that point, but I wasn't overly concerned.

Tech wise, we started min research on alphabet which we ended up trading for, and then writing, code of laws and philosophy at max to get the slingshot to republic. We met the starting continent tribes fairly quickly, and contacted America, then the Aztecs, the Spainish and finally the Iroquois in that order.

By 1000BC.
12 cities
1 settler
6 workers
9 warriors
4 horsemen
6 javelin throwers
2 curragh (one suicide lost)

4 barracks
1 granary

One turn of anarchy remaining until republic (we drew 4 turn anarchy)
Tech missing construction, currency, map making, literature, polytheism and monarchy from AA.

Wars
By about this time, it was clear that we were running out of expansion space, and it was time to resort to the sword, or in this case, rather the horse. The real question was who to attack first. I decided that the Americans had most encroached on Mayan territory with their settlements, and so in 800BC declared war. We had about a dozen horses and a half dozen javelin throwers at this time. The javelin throwers were there only to make a cameo to trigger a golden age, and this happened in 750BC. In 570BC we gave the Americans peace for all but their last two cities.

We spent the next few turns repositioning forces, so that in 490BC we could declare on the Aztecs.

Wonders
The only AA wonder we decided to try and build was the great lighthouse, to help our non-seafaring civ in locationg the other continent. As it turned out, we actually didn't start on this work soon enough, and lost out to the Germans early in the MA.

430BC saw us learn polytheism and enter the MA. Our world at the time:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SMCOTM04_430BC.jpg
Our military 25 horses, 12 javelins, 9 warriors, 1 galley.

Birdjaguar

Sep 05, 2004, 06:03 PM

It's now 440 AD:
I'm researching engineering (know Fuedalism too)
Tech lead among known civs
In my golden age
Republican Government
I have 1743 in culture (GL is my only wonder, built in 370 AD)
30 cities including 4 captured American ones
Just ended my first war (against America) while allied with Iroquois and Spain

I control:
2 horses (1 in Aztec land)
2 iron (1 in Aztec land)
3 spices (2 in Aztec land)

Have contacted Byzantines
Scores:
Maya 736
Aztec 658
America 544
Iroquois 543
Byzantium 530
Spain 368

My strategy has been to expand without war through the AA. I control the entire center of the continent, splitting America, iroquois and Spain. I have two cities controling the Aztec horses and iron and three more cities on the north end of their western pennisula. The Aztec capital is right on their northern border. The Aztecs will be my next target since they do not have either iron or horses. The recent war pretty much put America out of contention she's down to about 6 cities and still fighting Spain and Iroquois.

MiniMe

Sep 05, 2004, 06:12 PM

Opening moves: worker roads grassland where he started, then irrigates it to be able to irrigate the wheat. Settler moves NE and founds Cichen Itza. Builds Warrior - Warrior - Granary.

3600BC - Meet Aztec. Trade Masonry for Warrior Code + 10g.

3550BC - Wheat is irrigated and 2 turns to culture expansion.

3350BC - Meet America. I give them Warrior Code for 35g

2800BC - Granary done.

2630BC - First Settler ready.

1910BC - Meet Iroquois. Trade Masonry and Warrior Code for Alphabet and Bronze Working.

1100BC - Discover Philosphy (after Code of Laws). Get Republic as free tech. I start transition right away. 4 turns anarchy.

1000BC - Republic.

12 cities (31 pop)
1 settler
11 native workers
16 warriors
1 spearman
7 chariots
1 granary
4 barracks

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/cotm34_1000BC.JPG

Missing: Construction, Currency, Literacy (10 turns), MapMaking, Polytheism, Horseback Riding, Monarchy

950BC - Trade for MapMaking (Aztec) and Polytheism (Amercicans).

700BC - Discover Currency

410BC - Discover Construction. Trade for Horseback Riding. Enter Middle Ages!

klarius

Sep 05, 2004, 06:15 PM

Predator

Settled NE as planned.
Initial builds were 2 warriors, worker, granary then settlers.
Science alphabet 100%
3600 meet Aztecs and trade WC+10g for masonry.
3100 meet Americans. No techs.
2590 meet Spain. Get alpha,CB and BW. Start writing 100%
2550 Copan founded on silks
2390 found Palenque near spices
2270 Trade TW from Aztecs. Gift everyoone to tech parity.
2190 Tikla founded on coast. Builds curragh
1950 Buy IW from spain
1870 writing completes->Col
1830 meet Iroquois, trade-gift them to tech parity
1625 trade writing around for myst and some gold
1525 Col completes -> philo. Trade HBR from Spain.
1375 slingshot philo->republic, revolt for 3-turn anarchy
1200 literature researched->poly , trade math from Iroquois, gift republic to Americans and declare war (I want their gems). Ally the others for republic.
1125 iron connected
1075 poly researched->currency
1025 two combat settlements towards the american gems. I will get them even if I fail on Washington. Trade MM from Aztecs.
1000 autrazed Atlanta, the american horse town
900 gems connected, still no luck with Washington. Currency complete->construction
775 start golden age with the only JT I will build in the whole game.
Bad RNG at Washington. Lost several horsies and WW kicks in.
730 Construction completes. We are in MA.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/klarius_cotm4_1.jpg

Still a lot black coastline. These damn barb galleys sunk 3 curraghs and 2 galleys.
I will soon make peace with America, then a little bit more peaceful expansion, before the real wars begin.
I thought of going for a peaceful builder game (maybe 100k) after conquering the home continent.
But the pyramids were already completed somewhere else.
That was a :smoke: move of that civ. I will destroy them and go for domination or conquest. :devil2:

valamas

Sep 05, 2004, 10:30 PM

PREDITOR

I moved worker W and settler NW. I roaded the worker back to the city, irrigated back to the wheat and returned the middle tile back to mines. :) So I stuffed around with that then, maybe it was not the best way to start, as i usually just mine everything at the start.

My capital became the settler / worker factory. I was careful not to stunt my growth and make sure i had enough workers to join up roads and mine tiles as they were needed.

Each city i built became a javelin thrower pump. I found my silk and spice and horses and iron. I defended from the barbarians from the north and started a war for an early GA with America. I gained about 10 slaves while decimating America to one city to the far east where i blocked that city in, they will need to build a ship to escape. Peace with them gained me a tech and some money. I will not destroy them until the 20 turns of peace are up.

The aztec while growing in power in the south are polite, they could flood across my borders. I am defending those cities with a small force. The usefulness of my javelins is waining, so I will attack the weaker civs to extend them. I am after more slaves. The spanish are next!

I am happy with my expansion and soon will build infrastructure and stronger units to give my continient the final death nail as I dominate it.

Every now and then i would hand over 25 gold to my biggest rivals. While they are polite still, I am hoping that they will not start war with me. I had stretched my javelin forces and hope that war with the Aztecs will not come yet. I have lots of money, about 900 now.

My tech lead is strong. I think i need to find out just how big my world is, time for the Maya to get sea sick :D

So far the game has been greatly entertaining and i love starting the ancient wars and solving the logistics problems associated with them. Using some workers, defended by some units to road my war path to the enemy helped.

Print screen coming soon!

LuuCkyJaa

Sep 05, 2004, 10:45 PM

Open

This my first GOTM/COTM. I started hanging around this site in July and was considering the August COTM until I saw that it was to be at Demigod level. I decided instead to commit myself to my first victory at Monarch level. I achieved a domination victory playing as the Americans on a small map. Obviously, this is a very different scenario. In fact, it is my first time playing on large map (and as an agricultural civ).

Until visiting this site, I let the city governors manage citizen moods. Whenever I tried it myself, I was quickly dealing with civil disorder. I am very inexperienced at micromanaging, which you will see from my timeline below. However, my biggest weakness is early warmongering. I have found the previous posts very instructive.

3950 BC - Founded Chichén Itza (1) NE of start location. Started researching Alphabet and building a Warrior.

3750 BC - Completed 1st Warrior and started building a 2nd.
OOPS! - Realized three turns later that I had 1 citizen working a tile with no shields

3300 BC - Met Americans, and not a Scout but a Warrior. No trade possible.
PANICKED! Became convinced that those expansionist Americans would grab everything before I got my first settler out the door
Chichén Itza expanded to population 3.

3250 BC - OOPS! Apparently those three citizens are not happy with having no military presence in the city. Civil disorder

3200 BC - Order restored in Chichén Itza

2900 BC - Pop rushed Granary (1 citizen for last 18 shields)

2850 BC - Got Ceremonial Burial from goody hut! Look to trade, but America already has that and Bronze Working, plus two cities. MORE PANIC!

2670 BC - Finished building 1st Settler, and decided to send him NW towards mountains at the end of the river and Americans. I am most concerned about not having Iron and/or Coal (like in my last game, but that’s another story)

2510 BC - Founded Copán. Had already decided that this would be a “military factory.” Started building a Barracks

2310 BC - Finished researching Alphabet. America doesn’t need this either

2230 BC - Met Aztecs, who already had 4 cities. Traded Alphabet for Bronze Working + 26 gold.
MORE PANIC! Not only do they have twice as many cities as me, but they have a high aggression level. Pop rushed Barracks in Copán (1 citizen for last 15 shields)

1990 BC - Founded Palenque (3). At some point, I had finished 3rd Settler and sent him towards river/coast tile NE of Chichén Itza. After two moves, I saw the Americans heading towards the same location (I thought). I changed direction of Settler to SE

1950 BC - Met Iroquois, who already had 5 cities. Traded Masonry for The Wheel + 10 gold.
MORE PANIC! Not only do the Aztecs now have 5 cities and the Americans 3, but they both have Warrior Code and I do not have anything to trade for it

1870 BC - Founded Tikal (4)

1725 BC - Realized settler factory is humming along with minimal micromanagement. Shifted scientific research back to 100%

1700 BC - Known civs/cities/score:
Aztecs/5/153
Iroquois/5/153
America/5/129
Mayans/4/124

1675 BC - Met Spain; no trade possible

1600 BC - Founded Yaxchilán (5)

1550 BC - Finished researching Writing. I was so far back in tech research, I considered changing from Philosophy/Republic slingshot to Literature/Great Library.
After examining all the potential trades, I traded Spain Writing for Iron Working, Mysticism, Warrior Code + 31 gold.
Then traded Aztecs Mysticism for 75 gold (which I thought was a rip-off, but I wanted to keep them “polite”)
With the gold I received, I was able to establish embassies in Tenochtitlan, Washington and Salamanca.
I started researching Code of Laws, and was feeling confident for the first time in the game.

1525 BC - Founded Bonampak (6)

1475 BC - Founded Lagartero (7)

1275 BC - Founded Quiriguá (8)

1200 BC - Finished researching Code of Laws.
Traded Spain Code of Laws +13 gold for Mathematics + Horse Riding
Traded Iroquois Mysticism for 50 gold (a total rip-off, but I felt I needed the cash)

1100 BC - Founded Calakmul (9)

1075 BC - Founded Lazapa (10)

1050 BC - Founded Kaminaljuyú (11)
Finished researching Philosophy, got Republic for free. Decided to finish several building projects, e.g. Marketplaces and Temples, which I felt were necessary before descending into Anarchy.

1000 BC - Founded Piedras Negras (12)

975 BC - Forgot to save file when entering the Middle Ages. This is the last map I saved in the Ancient Age:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Maya_975BC.JPG

900 BC - REVOLUTION! Descended into Anarchy

875 BC - Founded Uaxactún (13), to prevent the Iroquois from setting up shop here. I intend to abandon this city later. More on that in the next spoiler thread.
Trade Aztec Philosophy for Map Making

875 BC - Founded Cuello (14), again to prevent the Iroquois from setting up shop here. I also intend to abandon this city later.

800 BC - Republic established!

670 BC - Trade Aztecs Horses for Furs + 147 gold. (I am loathe to give them the horses they need for Mounted Warriors, but I feel I need the Furs and can use the gold.)

630 BC - Pyramids completed in Washington; Great Lighthouse in Madrid. I NOW KNOW WHERE MY MILITARY AMBITIONS LIE!

610 BC - Civil disorder in Calakmul! WHERE DID ALL THOSE PEOPLE COME FROM? Oh, that’s right. I put a granary there. Guess large population plus long distance from capital equals problems. Gotta work on that.

590 BC - Trade Aztecs Currency for Construction
Spanish establish embassy in Chichén Itza. COOL. I can now establish a ROP with them and save establishing an embassy until I’m ready to attack them and need to know what’s in their capital.
Trade Spain ROP for 55 gold

570 BC - Founded Tulúm (15)

550 BC - Founded Cobá (16)

490 BC - Must have finished researching Polytheism (I didn’t make a note of it) and entered Middle Ages.

I just realized as I was putting this together that there are 21 “mandatory” tech advances plus three “optional” advances in the Ancient Age, and I only had to research five of them. I got 14 from other civs and one for free!

Unfortunately, I did not save the game around the time I entered the MA, but my notes show that I had the most cities/highest score on the continent by that point. I also know I had a decent military but it was focused on defense.

I’ve read others say that being in the middle of the continent was an advantage, but I was too concerned with having almost all of my cites bordering "enemies" to think about an attack. I’m now well into the MA but still have no clear military strategy, beyond knowing that I need to dominate this continent before warfare with other continents is possible.

LuuCkyJaa

Sep 05, 2004, 10:58 PM

Raggo

Sep 06, 2004, 12:28 AM

Monarch!!!
I am a Warlord player almost Regent and the COTM is Monarch!!!
Oh well Ill have a crack I thought.

Mistake!!

I followed advice building Chichen Itza NE and started Expansion.
Silks were quickly within my cultural borders and Spices followed.
All is well as I am moving along tech pace the same as the AI
Suddenly America builds a city on the Silks!!
Nooooooooo I cried for 10 minutes before banging my fist against my noggin.
The Americans must die I scream
So I declared war on the Aztecs. Taking a quick city.
But the war was a stalemate and peace was called.
I am losing by techs now and culture and even power.
I have no great wonders and am at fuedalism and they are god knows how far in front.
I scream and think maybe I will just get to the end of the game and submit a histograph defeat.
After 100 turns of pressing space bar and tributing gold to others civs I find myself bored out of my noggin.
Stuff this I declare war on all Civs and my great pikeman see an army of about 70 infantry surrounding my cities.
I die but hell it was a COTM had to try!!!

Story submitted by the ever faithful Raggo.
Stay tuned for more exciting but gay stories by the amazing Raggo
Check out the Raggo fan/hate club at the Off Topic section of this site.
See you there :P

MiniMe

Sep 06, 2004, 12:38 AM

LuuCkyJaa :
As a fellow newcomer, I had exactly same issues for cotm 03. The problem is that the screen shot is too wide. Zagnut had the following help to offer:

Try these instructions from one of our more technically oriented players:

To add screenshots to your posts:

1. Create the screenshot as a .jpg file using your Paint program, cropped and reduced to 800 pixels width or less.

2. Upload the file to the server using the Upload FIle link a the boittom of every page.

3. Click on View New Server 8 listing in the acknowledgment screen

4. Right click the file link for the file you have just uploaded and Copy the shortcut.

5. Put "[ img ] link [ /img ]" tags into your post where you want the image file to be displayed. Leave out the spaces that I have inserted here to disable the tags and paste the shortcut you copied in place of the "link".

WackenOpenAir

Sep 06, 2004, 12:58 AM

I settled at the river and made a 4 turn settler factory after 2 worriors for scouting.

As always, my goal is domination/conquerst.
I chose to avoid using my special unit before being out of despotism. The workers won’t be needed as much since I am industrious.

I started by alphabet at 10%, but traded it before it was finished. Then I went for the republic slingshot (writing – code – philosophy – rep for free) at max. I researched Republic 1250 BC. After 5 turn anarchy, I got into republic 1125BC.
I don’t have the exact date, but I must have entered MA around 750BC.

1000BC I had:
12 cities (44 total population)
2 settlers
10 workers
11 warriors
1 spearmen
4 granaries
4 barracks
342 gold
AA missing: Lit, Map, Poly, Monarch, Construct, Currency due in 1 turn.

I had a few encounters with barbarians, once needed to rushbuild a spearmen in despotism. Once lost a worker due to my stupidity.

Luckily, horses and iron were both easy to get, there was no competition to it.

I have been slightly low on workers this game, so that could have been improved a little. There were many wetlands to be cleared. The other cities grew fast because of the agricultural trade, fertile lands and rivers, needing more tiles to be worked.
The industrial and agricultural traits really combined well here to make a very nice start. I have not made use of Javelin throwers during AA.

LeSphinx

Sep 06, 2004, 12:58 AM

@ Klarius, I see that you are using a graphic Mod pack (snoopy one) with the C3C games. How do you installed it because it 's not working with me?
Thanks
LeSphinx

remconius

Sep 06, 2004, 02:28 AM

This is the first GOTM I am taking part in. I didnt keep track of the exact timeline/details/screenshots. Will do next month.

I started northeast as most people did, with the capital. I did not build many wonders, except GL, but focussed on expansion.

I did a quick archer rush with 2-3 archers taking the Aztec capital. This crippled them for the rest of the game until I destroyed them. I used the Aztec capital as launching platform to explore east. When available I upgraded a few warriors to swordsmen and sent 4 of them to take the american capital. I marched straight to washington and took it. On the way back took another continental city to connect my empire. Made peace with the americans. The americans were unable to make a fist after this crippling.

By the time rexing was over I had cities all the way to the east coast (iron), as well as west to the mountain range (more iron) near the Iriqouis.
This was the time the spanish got angry. They started war, which was not very smart of them. I moved in and took them out.

At around 1000AD it is just me and the Iriqouis on the isle. Time to explore the rest of the world...

Darkness

Sep 06, 2004, 02:58 AM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif Predator

Pre-game: We’re the Maya and we have a river and a wheat. There’s gotta be a catch somewhere but Ainwood’s probably the only one who knows where. I guess we’ll find it the hard way… I’ll start by moving my worker NW onto the grassland. If I spot anything interesting (like for example a bend in that river, that’ll decide my settler move. If not, settler will go N. Research: as usual -> philosophy slingshot to republic.

4000BC – Worker NW, nothing. Settler N
3950BC – Chichen Itza founded. Worker starts roading the BG. Start alphabet at max.
3850BC – Road completed. Start irrigation for fresh water access to wheat
3700BC – CI builds warrior, starts worker. Irrigation finished, worker moves to wheat. Warrior starts exploring due N
3650BC – Warrior N, spots silks, and the edge of what I think is Ainwood’s gift to us, lots of jungle…
3550BC – Road on wheat completed, worker starts irrigation
3500BC – CI builds worker, starts warrior.
3550BC – Cultural expansion reveals an American warrior nearby. Abe already has New York founded. He’s also up WC and he’s got 45 gold. Northern warrior spots American border
3400BC – Irrigation on wheat finished. Worker moves back to BG and starts mining
3150BC – An Aztec warrior approaches our northern border. They have WC.
2950BC – We meet Spain. Isabella has 35 gold CB, BW and Alphabet. There are still 13 turns remaining for us to discover alphabet. We give Isabella Masonry and Pottery for Alphabet BW and 35 gold. This just saved us 13 turns of research in our quest for the Philosophy slingshot. Monty gives us WC and 18 gold for Alphabet. Isabella then gets WC for CB straight up. CB to Abe for 27 gold. I keep Alphabet from Abe (he’s broke anyway) ‘cause he’s the only expansionist of the bunch and I don’t want him popping Writing or even worse, Philosophy from a hut. Start Writing at max.
2900BC – CI builds settler, starts granary
2850BC – Copan founded on river SW of the silks. Starts warrior
2670BC – Copan completes warrior, starts worker
2630BC – New York spotted. Abe definitely got lucky with an early settler from a GH
2550BC – Copan builds worker, starts warrior
2430BC – CI builds granary, starts settler
2390BC – Copan builds warrior, starts barracks
2270BC – CI builds settler, starts another
2230BC – Meet an Iroquois warrior. Sell Hiawatha CB for 10 gold
2190BC – Palenque founded on eastern coast, on river. Starts curragh
2150BC – Silks connected
2110BC – CI builds settler, starts another. Copan builds barracks, starts Javelin Thrower
1990BC – Palenque builds curragh, starts settler. Tikal founded on hills SE of CI
1950BC – We discover Writing, start CoL. IC builds settler, starts another
1870BC – Copan builds JT, starts another
1790BC – IC builds settler, starts another. Yaxchilan founded SE of spices, starts warrior
1700BC – Copan builds JT, starts another. Tikal builds worker, starts settler. Bonampak founded E of CI, starts warrior
1675BC – CI builds settler, starts another. Palenque builds settler, begins construction of Colossus (pre-build for Lighthouse/Pyramids/early MA wonder?)
1625BC – Lagartero founded, starts curragh. Quirigua founded, starts worker. One of our veteran JT kills a barbarian horseman, losing 2 HP; no slave
1600BC – Jaxchilan builds warrior, starts settler
1575BC – CI builds settler, starts another. Copan builds JT, starts another. Bonampak builds warrior, starts worker
1550BC – CoL discovered, start Philosophy
1525BC – Spices hooked up
1500BC – A veteran JT disperses a barbarian camp; no slave
1475BC – Copan builds JT, starts settler. CI builds settler, starts another. Calakmul founded, starts worker
1450BC – Bonampak builds worker, starts worker, Quirigua builds worker, starts worker
1425BC – Lagartero builds curragh, starts settler
1400BC – We discover Philosophy and get Republic as our free tech. Research set to Literature, followed by an immediate revolt. We draw a 5-turn anarchy…. Writing goes to the Aztecs for IW, Mysticism and 1 gold. Spain gets Writing for The Wheel and 25 gold. America get Writing for HBR and 57 gold. The Iroquois get Writing for 50 gold. Washington completes the Oracle.
1375BC – Lazapa founded
1325BC – Veteran JT lost attacking a fortified barbarian warrior. Barbarian camp dispersed by second veteran JT; no slave. Hittite city Hatassus completes Colossus.
1300BC – Regular warrior lost attacking barbarian warrior
1275BC – Mayan Republic formed. Embassies established with our four known rivals
1225BC – CI and Copan build settlers, and start new ones. Tikal builds settler, starts worker
1200BC – Bonampak builds worker, starts barracks (library pre-build) Quirigua builds worker, starts another. Horses connected
1175BC – Veteran JT kills a barbarian horseman; no slave
1150BC – Literature discovered. CI builds settler, starts another. Tikal builds worker, starts library. Bonampak switched to library. CoL and Philosophy traded to America for Polytheism and 17 gold. Spain gives us Mathematics and 25 gold for CoL, Philosophy and HBR. The Aztecs buy Mathematics for 50 gold. The Iroquois build Mysticism for 17 gold. Research set to Currency
1100BC – Both Copan and Yaxchilan build settler and start worker. Lagartero builds settler and starts another. Kaminaljuyu founded, start worker. Piedras Negras founded, start library. Uaxactun founded, start library
1075BC – Quiriguabuilds worker, starts library. Calakmul builds worker, starts libray. We lose another veteran JT to a fortified barbarian on plains. This makes it official: Javelin Throwers suck! The Maya have great traits but their UU is worthless. Cuello founded, starts library. Tulum founded, starts worker
1050BC – One of our exploring curraghs is sunk by barbarians. CI builds settler, starts another. Copan builds worker, starts library
1025BC – Lazapa builds worker, starts library. Coba founded, starts library. Dzibilchaltun founded, starts worker.
1000BC – Trade Mathematics to the Iroquois for 45 gold

QSC stats:
17 cities (total population 30)
1 granary, 1 barracks
4 contacts, 4 embassies
1 settler
13 workers
5 warriors
2 Javelin Throwers
1 curragh
All AA techs except construction, map making, monarchy and currency (2 turns remaining)
Treasury: 134 gold

950BC – Currency discovered. Currency to America for Map Making. Polytheism to Spain for 25 gold. Start Construction. Uxmal founded
825BC – America tries to extort literature. We say no. They back off
750BC – We discover Construction and enter the Middle Ages

The plan is to research Chivalry ASAP, and upgrade to knights (after I build some horsemen) and start conquering…

Roland Ehnström

Sep 06, 2004, 04:33 AM

Increadible QSC stats, Darkness, well done! :goodjob:

-- Roland

Rallonian

Sep 06, 2004, 04:58 AM

Open
I didn't take notes every turn but heres what I got:
Opening Moves:
I moved the worker west and then roaded the wheat. Settler went North and settled. Chichen Itza created a few warriors then a settler than proceeded to set up for settler factory.
Expansion went well, claiming the silks and spices relatively early.
Science:
Full research of alphabet and then successfull republic slingshot. I also researched literacy, map making, currency and construction, trading for the other ancient age techs. The other civs seemed to be researching incredibly slow.
War:
By the end of the ancient age America lay in ruin and troops were in place for a simultaneouse invasion of both Spain and the Aztecs.

QCS status: (not 100% accurate though fairly true)
16 cities
1 settler
1 granary
app. 4 barracks (possibly more)
4 contacts
not sure on workers though I had a lot of slaves
2 curragh
2 javelin throwers

Hit middle ages in 570BC by trading for Polythism from Aztecs.
Next month I think I'll keep a log so I can be a bit more specific :)

NeMeSiS_BE

Sep 06, 2004, 07:59 AM

Hi,

pretty new to the Game of the month - only found this fantastic website last month... should have had it like years ago ;-)

Normally regent player... hoping to move up reading all strategy articles...

Anyways here goes my first game :

Start by moving worker NE - settler N (4 hills in city reach for production later on).

build 2 warriors - worker and then granary - warrior (Police) then settlers.
start exploring north with one south with other warrior - encountering americans early - missing silk early on. first city goes north next to the river/coast.
second settler goes just in time to claim spices ( and horses after expantion).
Third settler just in time to settle near silks - wanted to settle in a jungle (auto clear) but then the americans would have beaten me to the silks...
fourth settler settles in between mountains in ENE.

In between trading all first line techs around (met spain as well). Reseach was full on republic slingshot - but some other civ beat me to philosophy. Encounter Iroqois at the time i went into iron age.

Iroqois send settler and spear way to near to me - so i declare war. heavy fighting - no gain on either side apart from one iroqois city (size 1) gets destroyed. Then iroqois show up with their mounted warriors - tipping the scale against my (slow) swordman (witholding javelins for golden age).

Bring in Aztec / Spanish / Americans in alliance against iroqois. Americans go for peace in only 5 turns - the cowards...
with the steady flow of warriors / horsemen from Aztec - i get a much needed break - and found city next to second horse in the west. Was almost out of swordmen to the ever retreating mounted warriors...

Just caught up building small army when the americans declare - taking 2 workers on first turn. Check alliances - only 3 turns to go agains alliance vs iroqois. Will hold out here and go for some US ass... :D:D:D

Quickly got their first town north of the river of my second city - then it's slowly going north - bringing 2 catapults and 5-8 swordmen. Meanwhile i make peace with iroqois and americans retaliate against a city just above the marshes - east of the jungle. barely hold on to the archerattacks there as they came over the mountain - so their defence bonus was costing me units.
Once i took Washington - their resistance faded - checked for peace options but they never wanted to give up the northern city next to the Volcano!!! and the 2nd Gems. So Americans loose city by city, until they offer me all their gold (21) + last city. Decide something along the lines of : Winner takes all... so i do... Bye Bye Mr Lincoln.

Meanwhile the war between Iroqois Vs Spanish and Aztec is costing all parties a lot of troops for NO gain in territory - no city gets destroyed on either side. Aztec take peace - spanish continue the war.

At this time i get republic from Great Library - and go for gov change.
Also trade republic to spanish for currency - pulling me in Middle Ages.

Meanwhile i reposition all my troops for a rush against the Iroqois - move all my troops to the western city's. Just as my last troops get to the west- the Aztec declare in their turn - immediately taking a city south of capital and they also take my capital!!! :mad: :mad: ... And i am still 3 turns in anarchy - cannot build or rush anything :mad:

This is what i call being caught with your pants down... apart from one or 2 spears per city - i have nothing to resist with. Next turn i loose another city (next to the spices/horses) - and Aztec raze the city north of this city.
Boy are they gonna pay.... army is moving towards them and they ripped the pages containing terms like "Prisoners of war" from their manuals...

Next game i will try to take better notes... but prob won't submit this time as it'll take alot time to recover - if i recover from this mess anyways...

chunkymonkey

Sep 06, 2004, 09:00 AM

Open

4000BC - 330BC: Founding of the Mayan Empire

Strategy would be to create working settler pump NE of location and claim land like a wild thing. Research would be usual Rep slingshot.

3950BC – Chichen Itza founded
3100BC – Spot Light Blue Borders to N
2950BC – Spot Green Borders to SE
2900BC – Meet Aztecs
2850BC – Meet America
2670BC – Settler Pump is up and running
2550BC – Found Copan next to silks
2510BC – Pop gold from hut
2390BC – See blue borders NW
2350BC – Meet Spain
2310BC – Found Palenque
2190BC – Meet Iroquois and Trade Masonry + 102gold for Alphabet + Bronze Working. Trade alphabet to the Aztecs for Warrior Code and 10 gold.
2110BC – Link up silks
1990BC – Found Tikal
1950BC – Found Yaxchilan
1790BC – Two American warriors move inside Copan borders. I ask them to leave, but they declare. :(
1750BC – Americans capture Copan, which was guarded by warrior and Javelin Thrower. Luckily, JavThrower died so I get to save my GA for later.
1700BC – Liberate Copan :p
1675BC – Found Bonampak
1575BC – Sign Peace Treaty. I have better things to do at the moment.
1550BC – Research Writing. Found Lagartero
1475BC – Found Quirigua.
1225BC – Research Code of Laws
1200BC – Found Calkmul
1175BC – Found Lazapa, Found Kaminaljuyu
1075BC – Succeed in pulling off Republic Slingshot. Trade Writing to Americans for Iron Working and 305 gold. Trade Writing to Spain for Ceremonial Burial, The Wheel and 7 gold. Trade Writing to the Iroquois for Mysticism and Horseback Riding. Sell Ceremonial Burial to the Aztecs for 115 gold.
1050BC. Iroquois demand Philosophy. I concede. I trade Code of Laws to them for Mathematics and 72 gold.
1025BC – Enter Anarchy
975BC – Found Piedras Negras
900BC – We are a Republic. :D Found Uaxactun.
850BC – Trade Code of Laws and Philosophy to Spain for Polytheism.
690BC – Learn Literature.
570BC – Build Mausoleum of Mallous in Chichen Itza.
370BC – Link up iron source and mass upgrade warriors. :mischief:

330BC - 30AD: The Mayan-American War

The Americans had to pay for their earlier arrogance. Now is a good time, they have no horses or iron and only a few cities. My Javelin Throwers are beying for Abe's blood and I should get some gems at the end of the affair.

330BC – I demand Boston from the Americans. They capitulate. I demand Chicago. They capitulate once again. They don’t agree to any more demands. I declare war.
310BC – My Javelin Throwers take their first life and the Golden Age of the Maya begins. :)
230BC – Build the Great Library in Copan.
210BC – Research MapMaking
190BC – Capture Washington and receive Temple of Artemis. :D
130BC – Give Aztecs 15gpt for some furs.
90BC - Aztecs demand horses. I can't be in two places at once. I give in.
70BC – Capture New York.
50BC – A great leader is born. Create army but leave him empty for now.
30BC – Built FP in Bonampak near the Aztec border.
10AD – Sign Peace Treaty with Americans for their two remaining cities (Philadelphia and Seattle) and 189 gold. They have one city remaining in Spanish territory.
30AD – Research Construction. Move into Middle Ages.

I am in a good position with my ToA to sweep the rest of the continent with knights or cavalry and work towards a 100K. However, Aztecs look threatening and the Mayan-Aztec border is long. My Swordsmen say war is coming.

Minimap at 30AD:

LuuCkyJaa

Sep 06, 2004, 09:42 AM

MiniMe,

Thanks for your advice. Hopefully, I'll get it right in the next spoiler.

James

Cuivienen

Sep 06, 2004, 09:42 AM

Okay, I discovered in a couple of runs on random maps with similar starting locations that the Mayans are perfect for the CxxC build, better than most civs. So that's what I did. I don't have details, but I built my cities very densely. When the Americans settled on the Silks, I declared war and razed Philadelphia, then got Atlanta, Boston and tech parity for peace. A brief early war with the Spanish captured all of their Workers, crippling them, and I got a tech out of that war, too. I was worried that someone on the other continent had acquired Philosophy before me when I got it in 1250 BC, but I guess I overestimated the AI. My screenshot is from about 700 years into the Middle Ages (entered ~800 BC), and I've just wiped out the American, who have just one city left north of Spain. At this point, I was already four-five techs a head of the AI.

The Javelin Throwers were very effectively used to acquire Barbarian slaves -- After I built my second city, it built four JTs to start. I had about 15 barbarian slaves by the Middle Ages. Not as many as I'd've liked, but enough

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/COTM_04_90BC.png

Civgeek

Sep 06, 2004, 10:07 AM

ainwood,

What did I do wrong when posting my timeline? It shows up in my browser much wider (and less easily readable) than the other posts. I hit "post reply" and copied-and-pasted the text from my WP program.
The width of a post, and any replies, seems to be impacted by the width of any images you include. Reduce the your image size to 800 (width) or less. If you are using Paint to get your screen captures from a 1024x768 game resolution, scaling the image by 75% seems to work fine.

SniperDevil

Sep 06, 2004, 10:09 AM

wow... looks like people did a lot better than the last GOTM

Night_Rogue

Sep 06, 2004, 11:37 AM

I didnt keep a timeline<To much hassle> but a quick rundown of my game.I got my settler factory up and running early and started to research wheel and iron working<Never though of slingshoting to republic have to try that next game>then went for republic.America beat me to the iron horses area so used my 14 warriors to declare war capturing the city,continued expanding and hooked the iron up upgrading all the wariors to swodsman then declared war on america.

Managed to take all but one of there cities but the price was heavy only had 3 swordsmans left,then I commited a big mistake when I switched to republic and disbanded any more then 1 spearman per city.The weakening of my civ made the aztecs feel like they could conquer me,Oh no!!!

Suprise attack by the aztecs starts a war between us I was still working on america and spain at the time<The spainish had tried settling into some of my american terrotry that I had just conquered>Having a war with three people at once.Not to worrh there though americans quickly signed peave having only one city left and Spain not to long after.Meantime Aztecs capture two of my cities and have about 20 units in my terrotiry,still havnt had a chance to rebuild my army sue for peace giving them a city.

4 turns later there back in my terrotiry I ask them to leave but of course they declare war luckily I got a few horseman up by this time and am battling it back and forth but another mistake almost costs me my capital one last pikeman with one red bar left!Well it survived and quickly reinforced my captial then sued for peace again this time giving them nothing or getting nothing.

This time they dont even have the patience to wait a whole 4 turns before there back in my terriotry with loads of units.I bring the iroquis into the war giving them 37 gold for rop and an alliance versus aztecs.That seems to work as the war suddenly shifts balance<Aztecs were running out of units when I bought iroquis in anyway there ga had ended>plus me sending a pikeman around to there iron and pillaging it hurts them even further.After a while of this war manage to recaputre the city I cedded them earlier then one of my cities they captured<The war is defintly turning around>Iroquis capture the other city the aztecs had captured then rop and alliance ran out they didnt want to extend it which was fine by me as I had just captured The aztec captial which had the prymaids and the hanging gardens :goodjob:

Sued for peace giving them monotheism and 100 gold for enginering and monarchy.Now it is late 750 ad<Man I am doing bad>4 turns untill chivilary which I am going to use to upgrade my 25 horses into knights and this time give aztec a piece of there own medicine.Sorry for no screenshoots but 1.I had a succefull suicider find an abonded island<pretty big one too and 2.I dont know how to make the things anyway..... :confused:

WackenOpenAir

Sep 06, 2004, 12:16 PM

dmanakho

Sep 06, 2004, 02:12 PM

OPEN class

and before I even start...
Ainwood, what have happened to you??? :eek:
Are you tired of people complaining in the past on how hard you made maps and conditions to play??? :mischief:
This was by far the easiest GOTM/COTM ever... It's like the best starting position person can come up with... Perfect settler factory, nice rivers, 2 luxuries nearby, and what is very unusual for Ainwood to provide an easy access to both iron and horses (and, yes, i finished the game and i know about what you planned for the rest of the game, but it has really backfired on you Ainwood stil making this game so easy). Oh, and did i mention how crappy were starting locations AIs had? :rolleyes:

Game started quite uneventful, moved settler, build 2 warriors, granary, established 4 turn settler factory ASAP and started pumping settlers, all new cities built nothing but barracks initially. met Aztecs first, then the rest of the gang.

After initial tech trading AIs became quite useless and the rest of the technology i had to research on my own. I researched writing, then code of laws, then philosophy and recieved free republic, next tech was literature and GL was the only AA wonder i built. ( i really didn't need it, i just like libraries :) , plus i wanted to deny AIs any free techs).

This was my 1st game of the month when i used totally new war tactics, Before i would always build bunch of swords, but after the latest SG i realised the power of horses and all games i play now i build horses instead of swords.
I truly believe that hordes of horses are more effective than swordsmen and have better upgrade possibilities.
I only built very few of unique units to ensure GA when i am ready.
I haven't seen any barbs really, continent filled so fast, barbs just didn't have a chance.

At around 500BC i was ready for war and Americans would be my 1st target, but i had to change plans. Aztec guy showed up and demanded literature, I laughed at him and he declared war... too bad for Aztecs. War started in 500BC i think...
I was already in republic so it was perfect timing to launch GA, so i did...
I entered GA in 470BC and shrunk Aztecs empire to just few tundra coastal cities. No leaders were generated during that war.

I entered MA in 310BC, perhaps late but i made a mistake waiting on AIs to bring me into MA (I had Great library remember?), but as i said AIs were too lousy researching.

Actually, running ahead this was quite lousy game in terms of leader hunting. I only had 3 for entire game despite constant and continious wars.

So, it's 310 BC and we are in MA. Aztecs are almost destroyed and i am thinking about the next war against americans... But this is a story for the next spoiler.

Thats all folks! :beer:

Abegweit

Sep 06, 2004, 04:24 PM

I started by moving the settler to the north east in order to keep both bonus grass in the city radius. The worker began building a road in order to bring water to the wheat. My granary was finished in 2950 BC and the settler pump moved into action.

In research I went all out for Republic, as I assume most other people did. When I met the Spanish I traded for Alphabet, which helped get things going in the right direction. In 1325 BC, I learned Philosophy and, as planned, I drew the Republic as my free tech. I next researched Math, Currency and Literature. After that I turned research off, hoping that someone would learn Construction but, in the end, I was forced to research it myself.

In 825 BC, I declared war on the Aztecs and moved in about 15 horsemen. In 510 BC I signed a peace treaty with them, reducing them to a single city. I had about 10 elite victories but no leader. As one of my last acts of the war, I attacked with my only Javelin Warrior and fired off my Golden Age.

In 470 BC, the barbarian uprising took place. The timing was very annoying because I was one turn from taking out their camp and had planned to put a city on the square. Next turn, I entered the Middle Ages myself. Tenochitlan is building the Forbidden Palace and Chichén Itza is working on the Great Library, which may eventually become Leo’s Workshop.

My immediate plans are to learn chivalry and take over the continent. I also need to find the rest of the world.

QSC stats
5 Granaries 4 Barracks
15 cities; pop 50
2 settlers, 12 workers, 5 warriors, 7 chariots and a curragh
In game score: 300, which is tops in the world

Roland Ehnström

Sep 06, 2004, 05:16 PM

Before i would always build bunch of swords, but after the latest SG i realised the power of horses and all games i play now i build horses instead of swords.
I truly believe that hordes of horses are more effective than swordsmen and have better upgrade possibilities.

I absolutely agree. Horsemen are really MUCH better than Swordsmen, mainly because of their ability to withdraw when losing. With six Horsemen you can expect to take any town defended by three Spearmen. Sure, you could do the same with five Swordsmen, but the difference is that you would then lose one or two of your Swordsmen in the process, while you would probably not lose a single Horseman if you attack with them instead. And because of their higher movement-rate, you get to the next town much faster, and can send in reinforcements much faster. And because they never lose, just withdraw, you'll soon have a bunch of Elite Horsemen, which could bring you leaders. And Horsemen upgrade to the mighty Knights (though it does cost a fortune) and then (almost for free) to the awesome Cavalry! I never build Swordsmen anymore, unless I have no Horses of course.

-- Roland

Cryspen

Sep 06, 2004, 05:16 PM

I'm new to CivFanatics, this is my first GOTM.

I've been playing Civ for a long time, and while I read in amazement the micromanagements that some do, especially in the Sid Games, I myself could never be bothered with that (nor do I take notes, is that a requirement to submit the results?). Nonetheless, on Monarchy level, my cavalry normally takes out a civ or two, and the rest of the world bows before my tanks... Though in truth, in many of my games, I'm not aggressive, and only go after those who declare war on me first.

With this game, I had several early thoughts/plans

With a UU of level 1 tech, I knew that a GA could be very early. In fact, I would have to be careful to make sure it didn't happen too soon.

Normally, the less units the AI has the better, but this time, I actually wanted lots of very weak (defense 1) units coming my way, so I planned to war early on.

Usually I go for Republic, but an early war meant strictly Monarchy. In fact, my plan was to race for Monarchy at maximum pace, switch, and go to war with everybody near by who can't pump out swordsmen yet. I dreamed of having a Pentagon before 0 AD, (which I've never done) with anything less then musketeers falling before my armies of Javelin throwers.

I also hoped to get at least 2 early Wonders. The Temple or Artemis and the Oracle are my first plan, as they allow for good military conquest. The temples provide culture to stop a culture flip, and the Oracle along with the temples help keep the captured city happy.

While normally I just place cities in the first decent spot I see, I decided I would try out this new fangled 'ring pattern' that I had read about online here. I wanted 6-8 size 6 cities (assumed most would not have fresh watter) that could do at least 10 shields, preferably 15, (so as to be able to really pump Javelin throwers), which can be tricky with corruption, prior to courthouses. The land allowed for a very nice placement of 8 cities at 3.5 from the capital. However, I quickly noticed that they had different corruption. A bit more of research here at CivFanatics showed that the Ring placement Theory is dead in C3C. Doh!

Well, I must say I haven't mis-managed an early start as badly as this one in some time. I totally botched my settler factory (5 turns instead on 4), and didn't produce nearly enough workers early on for all my cities. (in fact I think I may only have had two for 9 cities...) (This may or may not have to do with the fact that I played a lot of the game as a distraction while waiting for the pain-killers to kick in...)

I met the Aztec very early on, (I think turn 6-7)? Which made me nervous, for them to be so close.
I traded my masonry for warrior code & 10 gold.

I set up my ring of cities. My capital has built little besides settlers / workers.

The Americans closest city Philadelphia, was a little too close to the North.

To the east, my second city Copan, on the river, became my major production centre with 5 hills.

I built a barracks in my non-river cities, and had them each produce 2+ warriors for cheap MP (and useful swordsmen later on). Then I set them all to producing JTs.

In 1475ish BC, most of my cities had 1-2 warriors when the Aztecs demanded ceremonial burial from me, which I refused. We went to war. I wasn't ready for a real war, as I didn't have enough JT's, so I just waited. Not much came of things. Three aztec warriors came up, and were defeated. I got a never-to-be-used elite warrior out of it.

In 710 BC I got Monarchy

In 610BC The Aztec's again demanded something from me, again I refused, and we go to war.

In 550 BC I enter my GA. I'm a few turns from Temple of Artemis. I decided on doing something risky. I trade Monarchy (and the required techs) to America, Spain, and Iroquois, in return for all their gold and whatever Tech they had. Since I hope to capture many cities, I don't want them to rush-built their cities down to a size one, which can happen easily in Despotism. Plus, this way rush-building troops will help keep the AI poor, limiting their research.

The Mongols had beaten me to the Oracle in 925 BC, but I had kept the shields in a palace pre-build. I use those to help build the Great wall. I delay the Temple of Artemis by a turn or two, so that they will be built simultaneously, to help ensure I get them both. (I fear that somebody else's Temple of Artemis will become a pre-build for the Great wall). I then declare war on everybody I know (America, Spain, Iroquois, and was already at war with the Aztecs)

The Americans I fear are closest to having the Temple of Artemis, but since I gave them Monarchy, I hoped the Anarchy would delay them for a few extra rounds. Those rounds of Anarchy, plus the delay in sending troops over to me, should allow my GA cities to produce plenty of JTs to be ready for them.

In 490 BC I get both the Temple of Artemis and the Great wall.

Since then, things have been a bit slow.

It is now 470 AD.

I only built the Great Library in 450 AD, which has just moved me into the middle ages with Feudalism.

War on all fronts has stopped me from marching over any one civ, but I now have well over a 100 captured workers. I've probably lost a dozen or two from mismanagement as well. (Such as not noticing that some were fortified when I used 'X' to move a stack of captured workers under a JT, etc. Also, there seems to be a bug where that some units appear as 'active' on the right-mouse click list when they are in fact fortified). In hind sight, I wish I had lost a few more, used as human shields... 'Here..take your worker back, just leave my 1 HP elite unit alone' (Human shields by putting them -in between- me and the enemy, using up the enemies' movement by capturing a unit; not to be confused with what some consider an exploit with how the AI will always go for a worker over any other unit)

My dream of having a Pentagon prior to 0 AD didn't happen, but only by a bit. It was build around 100 AD or so (20 turns before the Great Library at 450 AD, whenever that is). Still in Ancient times though!

When I captured Washington, I took both the Hanging Gardens and the Pyramids!

Sadly, I've only just now have I gotten my fourth army. I've taken most of America, but I'm running very low on units. I've never really used artillery before, but I now appreciate what a stack of them can do (currently catapults), especially on defense. I wish I had been using them earlier, I'd probably have a lot more JT's left. I've lost dozens taking out pillaging Spearmen. Only Spain seems to have Iron, and only a handful of swordsmen have come my way, often to be defeated by an army of JT's.

I've only just seen two Midevial Infantry from Spain, but I'm not worried. I've about 20 catapults up north, who can beat them down, allowing for an easy victory from one of my two armies in the region, (or even a JT/Swordsmen/MI). I hope to take out the three remaining American northern cities (they have a few colonies way down south) before I see knights, at which point I may declare peace.

The Iroquois Mounted Warriors have been a nuisance as raiding parties, but not a real threat.

Some other interesting notes.

I've seen two Goodie-huts in post-AD era, both just a square outside of an AI's city zone of control (190 AD - which gave me a warrior, and 320 AD, which I only saw by boat.)

While a (or two or three!) Barbarian farm for workers/elite JT's would have been very cool, my cities never saw a single barbarian. An exploring galley to the NW was sunk by a stack of 10 of their ships though. (Spain has sunk any ship trying to explore NE) Way down south, on the other side of the Aztec empire, I did finally see Barbarian horsemen. A stack of ten, and of four, two, and one units, plus a camp with a warrior on it. Amusingly, and Iroquois settler/spearman landed by Galley that turn. The spearman was able to hold off 7-8 of them before falling.

The current remains of my once mighty army (I once had close to 70 JT's I think...)

4 Armies. 2 @ 4 JTs and 2 @ 3 JTs (which I may keep that way, so as too allow boat transfer prior to Tansport...)

6 workers
at least a 100+ captured workers

14 spearmen (will upgrade to pikemen soon, in turns to come)
13 swordsmen, (Again, will upgrade to MI in coming turns)
30 Catapults (probably more artillery then I've ever built before)
3 captured Catapults
2 galleys (lost 4-6 trying to explore)

40 Javelin Throwers

Roland Ehnström

Sep 06, 2004, 05:31 PM

While normally I just place cities in the first decent spot I see, I decided I would try out this new fangled 'ring pattern' that I had read about online here.

Hi Cryspen! I'm also pretty new to Civfanatics, having done only the three previous COTM's. I have learned very much from these games - I think you'll see your game improve very much too (though you seem to be doing pretty damn well already!).

Just a comment about the "ring pattern". I am afraid that this is obsolete with C3C. Corruption works differently in Conquests, so placing cities in a ring is of no use now.

-- Roland

Denniz

Sep 06, 2004, 10:02 PM

[c3c] 1.22f - Open Class

Ancient Age

I sent my worker west. I didn't see anything special, so I moved my settler NE and set up my factory. It sputtered a couple of times but overall my expansion was very quick. I met the Aztecs in 3600BC, the Americans in 3450BC, the Spanish in 2950BC and finally the Iroquis in 1675BC. The American must have poped a GH to found New York near the iron to the northeast. I had to put a city next in the hills to claim it. I got the horses and the 2 lux without any interference. The Republic slingshot worked like a charm wiht me switching to Republic in 1000BC. I used the show big picture trick but got 5 turn anarchy both times.

QSC:
12 cities
32 pop
2 settlers
10 workers
8 warriors
1 Swordman
5 Javelin
2 Curragh (I think I built 4 or 5 but losses high)
1 Grainary
4 Barracks

In 710BC, I had gathered a stack of 4 Swordmen, 3 Javelin, and 2 Horsemen northeast of Tenochtitlan and declared war. Both America and the Aztecs were weak compared to me. I started to go for the Americans but changed my mind and attacked the Aztecs instead as they had just built the Pyramids. In 670BC, I captured the city and started my golden age. In 590BC, I got 3 cities plus gold for peace. A short profitable war that left the Aztecs crippled with just 3 cities. :)

I rode the GA into the middle ages without further conflict. In 370BC, I discovered Construction to enter the MA.

Stats:
19 Cities
89 Pop
2 Settlers
15 workers
7 slaves (one purchase from Iraquois)
18 horsemen
1 galley
3 Javelin
1 Curragh

Tech:
3950BC Masonry; Pottery (Starting Tech)
3600BC Warrior Code (Trade)
3400BC Ceremonial Burial (Trade)
2950BC Bronze Working (Trade)
1990BC Alphabet (Research)
1650BC The Wheel (Trade)
1450BC Writing (Research)
1425BC Iron Working; Mysticism (Trade)
1150BC Code of Laws (Research)
1000BC Mathematics(trade); Philosophy(Research); Horseback Riding (trade); The Republic (Free)
900BC Map Making (Trade)
730BC Literature (Research)
550BC Currency (Research)
450BC Polytheism (Research)
370BC Construction (Research)

Wonders:
1600BC Colossus (Civ1)
1400BC Oracle (America)
900BC Pyramids (Aztecs, now Mayan)
590BC Temple of Artemis (Civ2
570BC Great Lighthouse (Civ3)

I was 4 turns from the Great Library and 1 turn from the FP.

predesad

Sep 06, 2004, 11:54 PM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/cotm4_aa_spoiler3.jpg

I seemed to have lost some of my notes, so I am going partly from memory

To begin, I started by moving the settler NE worker road, found Chichen Itza and continued to set up settler factory building warrior, warrior, worker, granary, settler, from that point it was settlers every 4 turns for a long time form my capitol. No settlers ever from any other cities, preferred just to let them grow and give workers here and there.

I contacted Americans early and was alarmed by their proximity, then the Aztecs soon after that. Not too much longer a Spanish wariror was spotted, but the Iroquois I did not contact for awhile.

I started researching Alphabet @ 100% then Writing all the way to Republic slingshot in 1175 BC. After I had got republic I began trading writing and made some trades too easily take the tech lead. The Aztecs never contact anyone else until nearly the MA despite their having discovered map making early. I extorted the Spanish two or three times by renegotiating peace, once this netted me iron working. I had an early war with America which netted me a city and saw only two battles during the brief war, the kille done of my warriors, i attacked and lost a warrior to that same one, then another warrior killed theirs. They gave me Boston + a small amount of gold for peace.

I had placed a priority on settling near the luxuries and claimed both silks & spices. I accidently founded on top of the horse (i did not have the wheel when i founded) then later founded right between the iron and horse to the north.

The Americans built both the Oralce and Temple of Artmeis, I declared war ion them, they are small and I wanted their lands. I did poorly though, because the war is still ongoing. They have failed to even appear to invade me, but I have lost too many swords to their spears and I misjudged the number of swords I needed. They only have three cities left, one in the far north by spain. I once got Washington down to one spear, but had to take my surviving units out of their territory to heal, in the meantime i had built a few more swords and when I approached the capitol again they had 4 spears in there, they must have been pop rushing like mad. This time i worried not about an early capture of their capitol, instead I pillaged every tile in their capitol and now have a stack of about15 swords ready to take them out.

I really became distracted by the war which should have been over long ago and have remained a depotism, my plan was to eliminate America and take over theri land, switch to Republic and the n invade the Aztecs with swords and javs to initiate GA, easy targets for slaves with their jags and archers because they took a long time to hook up their iron. that is still the plan, but it has taken much longer than it should have, the year is 270 AD.

I just entered the MA about 240 AD, purposely extending it. After my Republic slingshot I researched literacy and then went with one scientist for currency. With the 50 turns, Spain still only managed to get currency 3 turns before I did and I racked up a ton of gold, 3725. I built the GL, but not by choice. I wanted the other GL, the lighthouse, but a civ on another continent beat me to it. I will continue to let the AI dictate the tech pace and rack up gold until education.

My goal right now is to overtake my continent and then go for a space race victory, i want all of my continent in case I dont have needed resources later for spaceship, i will have other extra resources to trade, and then i will only have to worry about overseas invasions. Once the GL is obsolete I hope to be able to distance myself in the tech race, but as of yet I have not contacted the other continent and I am certain they are ahead of us. No matter because I will catch up thanks to the GL. I did make a successful crossing though, finally, after several attempts and I hope to get some other contacts soon.

I have 22 cities, 1 settler, 27 workers, 1 warrior, 22 spears, 23 swords, 14 javs, 8 galleys, & 14 slaves. My core cities have granary, temple, barracks, and aqueduct where needed, also a couple harbors. I have built the forbidden palace in Bonampak which expanded my core. Have been adding courthouses, and started on markets, i will get those and libraries during GA and i hope to get contacts for monotheism so i can build cathedrals as well.

The game is going slow, but I vow to speed it up then make use of my huge cash reserve.

Birdjaguar

Sep 07, 2004, 12:29 AM

Hi, pretty new to the Game of the month - only found this fantastic website last month... should have had it like years ago ;-)

Welcome to CFC!

eldar

Sep 07, 2004, 02:04 AM

Open.

BC 4000 Worker W to Wheat. Looks like coast. Settler NE to river. Nothing interesting.
3950 Founded Chicen Itza. Research Alphabet at 20% (minimum). Worker will: road (2), NE (1), road (2), irrigate (3), SW+irrigate (3), NE+mine (4), E+S (1), chop (3). [Edit: I deviated somewhat, chopping before finally returning to irrigate the wheat]. Build will be warrior, warrior, granary, settler.
3700 First warrior out, and the road on the BG is done so I can hike research to 90%.
3650 Warrior spots spices to the SE. First settler spot if nothing better emerges.
3550 Second warrior ready, will go round the coast.
3250 Contact with Aztecs, I give them Masonry, they give me WC+10g.
3150 Goody Hut: Barbs :-(
2900 Granary completed.
2670 First settler pops out. Will go to spices site, and start making warriors for MP in Chicen Itza.
2590 Goody Hut: Maps :-(
2390 IBT: There are blue borders touching Chicen Itza's?!
2350 The blue borders belong to America - I bet it's a Goody Hut city :-) They're up CB & BW, the Aztecs are up BW. Founded Palenque.
2270 Founded Tikal, backing onto the American city's borders but it's next to Silks and I can probably get it.
2070 Alphabet finished, start Writing. Trade Alphabet to America for BW+30g. Aztecs have the Wheel but won't trade (they have no gold).
2030 IBT: Aztecs DoW! They have a lone archer next to an undefended (and undefendable) Copan… which I promptly lose.
1990 Contact with Iroquois, sell Masonry and Get CB, Wheel, and 10g.
1950 Looks like the Americans either started very close after all, or got two Goody Hut settlers.
1910 Founded Bonampak, killed the Aztec Archer with a warrior.
1750 Copan Two founded. Now I know why the Aztecs wanted it… as well as the Spices, there be horses :-) IBT: sign peace with Aztecs giving them CB+28g. Chichen Itza riots due to lack of War Happines.
1550 Quirigua founded. Trade away Writing to Iroquois for IW+25g, then IW to America for all his gold, and Aztecs for all his gold.
1475 IBT: A settler gets hit by a Barb horse.
1350 Calakmul founded, next to Iron. As someone mentioned… Chichen Itza can be a 3.5-5.5 settler factory!
1325 IBT: CivX completes The Colossus. An American worker finishes connecting the Silks for me, I've finished the temple in Tikal so I now have control of the square :-)
1300 Sell Writing to America for Mysticism+25g.
1250 At long last, my first Javelin thrower comes off the production lines. Too darned late. The two grassland squares I've inherited from the Americans are irrigated. Why?!
1225 IBT: Spain contacts me. I decline her offer for now, but will go back to her.
1200 Sell Writing to Spain for HBR+6g. I can get Mathematics from America for CoL but I'll hold back for now to give me a better shot at Philosophy - though all the AIs now have Mysticism so chances are they're chasing Polytheism for the ToA. Lazapa & Kaminaljuyu founded.
1175 Sell Mysticism to Aztecs for 25g (from the Barbs they just broke up).
1050 I complete Philosophy and... Darn! - an undiscovered Civ already had Philosophy! I'll still research Republic, though, because I'd like the early govt.
1025 Trade CoL to America for Mathematics. Sell CoL to Spain for 35g.
1000 QSC position would be better if it weren't for the early Aztec DoW, and the loss of the Settler in the Calakmul position to a Barb. It turns out I could've escorted it, because my research gambit failed so the extra Lux tax wouldn't have bit. 10 cities (+3 more soon), 7 workers, 14 warriors, 3 javelin throwers, 233 gold, 27 population, researching Republic, missing AA techs Construction, Currency, (Literature), Map Making, Polytheism, Monarchy. Contact with 4 Civs (Aztec, America, Iroquois, Spain). Score 257 (#1 from 5 - next is Aztecs on 240). 1 granary, 3 temples, 3 barracks.

1000BC screenshot:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/QSC_eldar.jpg

I've marked where my three settlers are headed for/are - I get all three sites :-)

950 Traded Mathematic+CoL to Aztecs for Map Making+25g. Founded Uaxactun.
875 IBT: CivY completes the Pyramids. Bad, 'cos the Aztecs switch to the GL - must've been building Pyramids in a coastal city?! Possibly good news, because it's not going to be particularly productive. The Americans complete The Oracle.
825 Sold Philosphy to America & Spain for all their gold. IBT: CivZ completes the MoM - at least I know *who* was first to Philosophy now!
730 IBT: CivQ completes the Lighthouse - knew I shouldn't have tried for it. I switch Palenque to my FP. Might as well get it built nice and early.
690 Sell Philosophy to Aztecs for all his gold, and Map Making to America for all his. IBT: America get Construction. Still, I'm close to Repbulic - so I can use that to its full effect.
570 Repbulic discovered, immediate revolt (forget about the 'Big Picture' trick though). 5-turn anarchy though :-) I'll wait 'til I trade it round, though - I can get Construction from America, but it's not really worth it, yet. They'll only sell on Republic. Sell Philosophy to Iroquois for all his gold.
510 Uxmal founded, next to one of the Furs south of Aztecs. I can't believe they didn't claim it - indeed, they had a Settler there in plain sight of my Galley, but went right past!
490 IBT: Aztecs demand Republic. I tell them where to go, they DoW. Their loss.
470 The stack of Javs and Swords I've built up ready to hit Tenoc, makes it move.
450 IBT: Boston flips to me :-) And CivP completes the SoZ.
430 Start of my GA as a Jav takes out a Spear defending Tenoc. Give in and sell America Republic for Construction+62g. Still no-one has Poly. Tenoc captured. And I get my first slave from a Jav :-) Then I 'forget' the stack of Aztec units sitting on a mountain and move the slave next to them... d'oh!
410 IBT: The Aztecs capture Uxmal, but that's no surprise given how deep in their territory it was. I hope my two warriors fought bravely (the first came on the Galley, the other had been down south scouting).
390 Complete FP in Palenque. This war will not be fun for Monty.
350 Finish Currency - still nobody has Polytheism, so I guess I ought to research THAT too. Still, it's a 4-turner thanks to my GA :-)
330 Sell silks to Iroquois for 44g. Found Kabah right under their noses, too. Still, two wheat and a lake? I'll take it!
310 Sell Currency to America for Gems+15g. Still can't drop to 0% luxes, but I'm starting to build Marketplaces now (in preference to temples). IBT: Barb uprising near Kabah. There's an Iroquois spear/settler pair next door to that camp. That's nice for them.
270 Complete Polytheism and enter the MA. Start on Engineering.

A nice position to be in, but for the early DoW by Aztecs it would've been better (Copan would've been my early Jav pump, but got set back somewhat...).

[Edit] My GA was very nicely timed, even if a little unplanned. It boosted me into the MA, and I also got Markets, and some Courts, built in my main cities. Financially, I'm sound, which should make the rest of the conquest of this continent a simple job once I get Knights.

Neil. :cool:

Darkness

Sep 07, 2004, 02:50 AM

Looking at these openings, i have a question to those who have 16/17 cities at 1000BC, hopefully opening some discussion.

I have build settlers only from my settler factory, and workers mostly from my other cities with granaries to give my remaining cities the opportunity to grow.
At 1000BC, i only have 12 cities, but with 44 total population vs 30 pop in darkness' 17 cities for example.

The difference is that you invest more in future growth by building settlers from your non settler factory cities as well.
The more you invest, the later your cities start growing tall and production will rise, but the bigger the production can be in the end.
On deity/sid, the amount of investment is mostly decided by what the AI lets you get away with (due to available ground and your lack of defence)

I don't have experience with the lower difficulties, but i would expect it not to be optimal to invest as much as the AI allows you. The AI is so weak, i would guess you can finish them off earlier if you make a lower investment. On the other hand, i could say the higher OCN favors a bigger investment on these difficulty levels.

So, i ask you to explain your reasoning behind your investment strategy on lower difficulty levels since i have very little experience with that.
(I started playing deity right away, and still stand by my oppinion that if you want to beat deity, you should not start at lower difficulties because it's just a different game at lower levels)

PS: I just explained my philosophy behind my strategy, i am not trying to convince anyone it is good or even better, i know you guys are top finishers in the gotm's. Thats why i ask you about your strategies.

This could be quite an interesting debate...
Since you compared your game to mine, I'll answer as much as I can.

I build most of my settlers from my settler factory. Two cities were set to a specialized build (one had barracks, so it was pumping out Javelin Throwers. This did me no good though, since I didn't acquire a single barbarian slave. The other was doing a great wonder, can't tell which one in this spoiler, but I was succesful :D ). All the other cities were building workers and settlers as fast as they could.
Now to the why of my strategy:
Because I always go for republic ASAP happyness is an issue early on. I tend to keep most my cities relatively small to keep the luxury slider as low as possible (fast research) and because I always want to have a lot of workers, who IMHO are the most vital unit in the game! Most of my cities started to grow early on in the MA, because by then my peaceful expansion was over and I had enough workers.
IMHO it is always cheaper to expand as much as is reasonably possible, than to conquer other nations in the start. The real point is where peaceful expansion becomes more expensive (long settler treks, etcetera), that's when I usually switch towards a more aggressive approach.

socralynnek

Sep 07, 2004, 03:11 AM

Open Class

Since I am a monarch player, I decided I wouldn't need the few bonuses from Conquest class.

The Americans attacked me very early, but since they had no iron, I had no problem to fight them with my Javs and a few swordsmen.
I got two leaders in that war and at the end of the AA, America had only one city (to the south of Chichen Itza where I could control them...)
Washington had build Mausoleum, so I decided to build my FP there which was finished as I entered the Middle Ages.
The war with America was almost over when the Aztecs attacked me. I played a few turns defensively and got a leader from a defending spearman. i used that army to prevent them from connecting their iron.
Then I decided I would destroy the Aztecs, but the downside of this was that I would wait for Democracy to change governments.
When I entered the Middle Ages, I had conquered 1 or 2 cities of the Aztecs but the war went well since they only attacked with archers.
I had (almost) met all civs (my galleys were at that moment still on their way)and I was the first to enter the Middle Ages.
I had lots of workers (only 2 were build by myself)and was building the pentagon...
Have I already said that I love armies full of Javs...
I am the largest civ and when I finish the Aztecs, I should have a big lead...

WackenOpenAir

Sep 07, 2004, 05:55 AM

This could be quite an interesting debate...
Since you compared your game to mine, I'll answer as much as I can.

I build most of my settlers from my settler factory. Two cities were set to a specialized build (one had barracks, so it was pumping out Javelin Throwers. This did me no good though, since I didn't acquire a single barbarian slave. The other was doing a great wonder, can't tell which one in this spoiler, but I was succesful :D ). All the other cities were building workers and settlers as fast as they could.
Now to the why of my strategy:
to keep most Because I always go for republic ASAP happyness is an issue early on. I tend my cities relatively small to keep the luxury slider as low as possible (fast research) and because I always want to have a lot of workers, who IMHO are the most vital unit in the game! Most of my cities started to grow early on in the MA, because by then my peaceful expansion was over and I had enough workers.
IMHO it is always cheaper to expand as much as is reasonably possible, than to conquer other nations in the start. The real point is where peaceful expansion becomes more expensive (long settler treks, etcetera), that's when I usually switch towards a more aggressive approach.

Hmm, i reasoned to get some cities to size 7 asap when getting republic :) I got 4 size 7 sities when i got rep around 800-700 BC. Also built marketplaces in those.
I guess you built 4 or so settlers from other cities (since i am not too stupid to start and use a settler factory, i assume you also got 14 settlers from it by 1000BC), i think i will experiment some with the difference between these idea's by playing the same game twice and at the same time with both idea's after completing this gotm. I hope it won't take too long before i get to it.

jazz_man

Sep 07, 2004, 06:27 AM

hi!

I had a fairly peaceful ancient age focussed on growth and science.
Managed to gain lots of respect from my neighbours!

Some highlights so far.

Realized that when builds are close to an end It might pay off to
micromanage the shields better. As an example I have 2 towns that
can use the wheat & a good shield tile, so by swapping them around
when shields are about to be stuffed I can minimize the waste. Now
keep an eye on when things are about to become finished

Gotta love it when trespassers obediently run back home upon hearing
the thunderous voice of Maya power booming.

I decided to try and delay the golden age until I had some decent
towns & science. This worked out alright I think, just after getting
republic a javelin fellow got my civ into racer-gear!

Used the whip a bit since there was such an abundance of food on
the plains - built libraries.

Crushing the Aztecs, ho-hoo - got onto their capital with catapults
and horsies. There's an Oracle in their town that says I'll find
a really nice woman and live happily forever after.

Attach some pictures showing my empire, best towns & woman.

cheers,
john

Offa

Sep 07, 2004, 11:14 AM

LuuCkyJaa

Sep 07, 2004, 12:43 PM

Civgeek & MiniMe,

Thanks for the tips. I was able resize the map and go back and edit my original post so that the map is where I wanted it and the post is easily readable. Thanks again!

James

Paradigne

Sep 07, 2004, 12:52 PM

I don't have any screenshots, but if you look at grs's my early game was almost identical (Including Denver being where it was - almost fell out of my chair when I saw that).
I didn't get any barb slaves.
I missed getting philosophy first.
I missed the pyramids by 5 turns.
<SIGH> :cry:
I did get to switch pyramids to GL though, which came in real handy. The Aztecs started a war (right after I went republic) so I dropped tech to zero and proceeded to wipe them off the face of the planet.I had to spend 6 turns switching to Monarchy because of the war wariness They tried to get the Iroquois involved but I was able to get America and Spain after them. The only Iro units I killed were a BUNCH of settler they kept sending through my lands :lol:
When I was winding down with the Aztec's (I got 2 armies there) America sent some troops into my lands looking for lands to settle, when asked to leave, they declared war... so they were next. I made short work of getting them off MY continent, but since I had no idea where there last city was (nor did I really care) since the Iroquois were still itching for a fight.
I got Spain involved in this war again, but quickly blocked their access to them with captured cities. Not to keep them out, just to slow them down. This worked well, because they concentrated on the roaming units while I took the cities :)...

smackster

Sep 07, 2004, 02:05 PM

I am just lurking here as playing on a large map isn't appetizing. However, for what it is worth I agree with you that too much expansion at the cost of city size can be wrong. This opinion is largely based on Snaga's game in gotm23 (Monarch Arab pangea). In that game he built relatively few towns (? a dozen or so) before blitzing through the AI with breathless speed. I would refer you back to his write up: it certainly convinced me. If only I could play as well...

I had 14 cities and 36 population at 1000BC. I think that Arabs game had a number of factors that made it different to this one, being a Panagea, mostly poor land growth (desert), standard map size and a 3 move UU.

Here are my thoughts on QSC growth in this game. If you have a strong settler factory (as we do in this game) there is less need to produce settlers elsewhere. In other games without a good settler factory it can be a must to produce settlers in multiple cities, so that you expand quick enough and to stop the AI from grabbing all the land

There are a number of factors that I use to determine what cities if any (beyond the settler factory) should produce settlers in the QSC (and beyond) period.

1) Any city without a river that approaches size 6, build a settler/worker
2) Any city that forces you to push the slider, you should consider what to do with it. I like to base the slider % on my settler factory, any (connected) city that requires a bigger % should either build a settler/worker, or use a scientist.
3) Consider the OCN, does it make sense to push out a settler from one of your core cities, to settle in a totally corrupt place.

Finally in this game, my QSC period was concerned with a) the settler factory, and b) the republic slingshot. So in fact my second city got to a point where I might well push a settler out of it, and I would have probably got a couple more cities by 1000BC, but this was a critical period where I was pushing all out for CoL and then Philosophy. So what I did was to hire a scientist in various cities to squeeze down an extra turn or two of research.

smackster (hopefully I'll actually write my spoiler soon)

zamint3

Sep 07, 2004, 03:34 PM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif Predator

Founded Chichén Itza NE.
Build order warrior, granary and then settlers for the next 2700 years.
First settler in 2710 bc.
The warrior went exploring in the north, but we newer got any early trade. :(
Our capital was undefended for the next 1300 years, with some very annoying American and Aztec warriors circling around. :eek:

We haven't met any barbs yet, but in 1125 bc the Aztecs declare war and 2 turns later one of their archers loose against our javelin thrower, so we enter a despotic golden age. :cool: :cry:

QSC Status :
21 cities.
40 pop
1 granary
4 barracks
2 settlers.
12 workers + 1 slave.
14 warriors
1 horseman.
4 javelin throwers.
1 curragh

Score : Maya 337, America 265, Aztecs 253, Iroquois 244, Spain 171.
Treasury 537 g, two turns from Code of Laws. AA techs left : Litt, Polytheism, Monarchy, Republic, Currency and Construction
We have embassies with America, Spain and Iroquois and are at war with the Aztecs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Maya_1000_bc.jpg

Roland Ehnström

Sep 07, 2004, 03:38 PM

TWENTYONE cities at 1000BC??? Unreal! :eek:

Edit: But on the other hand you are still despotic and have a despotic GA... It's gonna be interesting to see if this amazing early expansion pays off or not. :)

-- Roland

Cryspen

Sep 07, 2004, 04:12 PM

Just a comment about the "ring pattern". I am afraid that this is obsolete with C3C. Corruption works differently in Conquests, so placing cities in a ring is of no use now.

-- Roland

So I've found out. I was a bit surprised to see some cities with 12 shields able to produce 11 and others with 13 only doing 9. I think normally (and in future games) I would have gone for something much closer to Predasad's city placements.

Even if it was still valid, I already knew that 'ring placement' wasn't the best method to go in the long run. I was just hoping it would give me a small advantage for the *unusually early* wars I planned. (to the goal of size 6 cities having 15 shields after corruption... a bit tricky in ancient times). Most players don't begin a conquest phase, outside of a city or two, until they have knights, and often cavalry; there are good reasons for this, as I'm sure most players here know. However, for this game, I thought it would be fun to to play this game as the *Mayans*, rather then just as a vanilla civ. To really push things and see what, if anything, was special about them, aside from their very powerful class of both agricultural and industrial. Hence, early wars with JTs.

I guess I should point out I'm also playing Predator class (I'm really an Emperor level Civ player, as I have no fear of actually losing at Monarchy level), and I was considering how fast those extra units would allow the AI to expand, and how many neighbors would be a bit war-happy early on, hence the reason I went for a pretty tight city placement - with the plan of then taking over their cities.

Even without 'shooting myself in the foot' by using an obsolete city placement, this is certainly not my best game. I rushed through far too many turns. I certainly understand, and respect, those who play the GOTM very competitively, but I just wasn't in the mood for that. For this month at least, I'm just playing to try things out, see what works, and perhaps more often, but sometimes just as useful, what doesn't work.

Long term early war has really slowed down the research pace, at least on this continent. Spain, America, Iroquois, and Aztec are all in Republic now, and their war weariness must be at max. I wonder if I can even look forward to a culture flip or two from rebelling cities? I'm sure the war weariness is crippling their economy, never mind the three to four hundred or so combat units I've destroyed. With the high cost of unit support in republic and all the war weariness, they just can't have a large army. I'm sure I'll be able to steadily march over them.

In fact, thinking about it, when I meet the rest of the world, any that are in republic/democracy, I may just go to war with too. Sea invasion by the AI is poor at the best of times and in the MA, its laughable. If I can max out their war weariness, and slow down their economies, while I spend the time conquering the home continent, so much the better.

This really was an amazing start location. Settler farm, two luxuries, horses, and iron. I do wonder what the 'surprise' will be. I fear the only saltpeter, coal, rubber, aluminum, etc are going to be on the other continent, and directly under the capital of each AI...

Felton

Sep 07, 2004, 05:35 PM

I've been reading posts on this site for a while and its really impoved my game. I've struggled some with the Games of the Month and never submitted one. I may submit this one (as I actually finished it) if I can figure out how. This was also my very first game with the Mayans.

In this game I built a warrior, then a granary, then a worker (to go from size 5 to 4 to start the machine), then began spitting out settlers. But I was suprised, having never played a large map, how close my neighbors were. And when I met the Americans, they had more cities than I had! And I dont think it was humanly possible for me to get that factory up faster than I did.

As my plans for infinite expansion were spoiled by greedy Abe, I decided to go to war fairly early, and let the AI's build a few of my cities. So I did not fill in some areas, mostly to the west, that I could have gotten to in the intitial exansion. Instead, I concentrated on improving my economy and building a couple of barracks, plus a few temples so I wouldnt be sleepless over culture flipping.

I had an option to "slingshot" to republic or monarchy, and chose monarchy because I had a feeling I was going to be doing alot of fighting. Although expensive, I chose to do the vet warrior to sword upgrade (I think 11 swords from that) to get a good early armed forces, though I never built any more swords (horse types from then on). I know alot of people like nothing but horses, but swords are, for me, good to lead the initial breakthrough, and are nice to have till they cant keep up anymore. I had taken out the Americans by approximately the end of the AA, and was looking forward to paying Montezuma a visit. Unfortunately, I didnt take any notes, which might be helpful in the future. Oh, and I decided not to build the Jav throwers once I realized there were no barbs in the vicinity and they were pricey for what they did, and I decided to wait and trigger my golden age till later on.

I know some posters felt the game was too easy, but I really enjoyed it.

Cryspen

Sep 07, 2004, 09:12 PM

Probably be a few more days before I get back to my game, what with real life and all.

Rereading the threads, it would appear that few people take into consideration which civilization they are in their opening game; which is fair enough, you go with what you know works.

It looks like only a handful of players have explored using the Maya's Unique Unit, the Javelin Thrower. I was wondering what thoughts people had on them?

At first glance, they are nothing special: 2/2/1 for 30 shields. I don't think they are either over or under priced. However, a spearman at 1/2/1 @ 20 is cheaper for defense, and a horseman at 2/1/2 @ 30 costs the same and is (far) superior for attack, with its fast movement and ability to retreat.

Worse yet, to really make use of such a weak unit, you would have to deliberately slow down the tech race, so as to give the Javelin Thrower any chance at victories.

First: The tech race. I think most would agree that slowing down the tech race is, in general, counter productive. However, is it that much of a handicap? It would certainly depend on the game, but in many I'm not sure it would be a huge factor. I wouldn't want to try to do it on a single continent game, as there would be far too much chance of one AI taking an every growing the lead in technology. However, with islands or two continents, as long as your neighbors are equal or less, there isn't too much to worry about. In this game, I don't really care if the civ's on the other continent take a tech lead. As long as I don't see bombers coming after my knights, I'm not worried. Shear production of having the most landmass always allows for a comeback.

Second: The Javalin Throwers, as stated above, nothing special about the unit in terms of combat or cost. Being a low level ancient time unit they are game-wise weak, but certainly equal to their times. So what it all really boils down to is their unique ability: Enslavement. Can enslaving make up for a slowed tech research?

To most, a worker is a 10 shields inexpensive but required unit. Even the building of a single mine will quickly pay for the worker. But is this all a really all a worker costs? I think not. First, you have upkeep. Not many advanced games let you have total units below that of the free unit costs of your chosen Government. So for simplicity, lets assume a worker also costs 1 gold per turn. There is more though, a worker also represents a unit of city population, which means one less tile being worked. That means the loss of (the reasonably low estimate) at least a shield and a gold as income. This raises the cost of a worker to perhaps 6 gold per turn? Even more in the later game. Now, Maya's are industrial, which means that workers work 50% faster, and slaves work at only 50%. Two Mayan workers can road a tile in one turn, where as it takes 6 slaves to do the same. (No, the industrial trait of the Maya's does not appear to carry over to slaves.) 1.5 vs .5 So a Mayan worker is worth 3 slaves. Therefore, a Mayan slave, in Ancient times, is worth about 2 gold per turn. Not much, but not to be ignored either. Now, corruption has not been factored in here, but for now, consider the fact that a slave is free, or at least zero city shields, and we'll call it even.

Now, in my game, I'm about a third of the way in at turn 162. I currently have 137 slaves (according to Civ assist.) I've also lost at least a dozen more due to bad management. Mind you, I also had to use no small amount of Javelin Throwers to acquire them all. I've probably lost a lot more then 40 JT's, but lets call it 40 for this theory. I'm thinking that if I had traded in 20 of those lost JT's for 30 catapults, well, I'd still have lost the other 20 JT's just from the nature of combat, BUT, I'd still have the 30 extra catapults. Those, along with the 30 I currently have would make for 60 catapults, which is nothing to ignore. In fact, I think its safe to say that I'd also have several extra cities by now, and and another dozen or two slaves.

Third: Once you destroy another civilization, you can take all your slaves from that civilization and safely turn them into population in your cities, therefore gaining the full income of a shields, gold, food, etc. which could easily add up to the equivalent of 5 gold or more per turn/each.

What does this all add up to? About 300 gold per turn during the Middle Ages... What I'm not sure is, does that equate to even more money later on, or less?

Does all this make the JT a truly useful unit? I'm not sure... but I certainly haven't ruled it out.

Also of note: I haven't played any online, but I understand that most such multi-player games often end during the low techs. Would a JT more useful in those games?

What do other people think?

predesad

Sep 07, 2004, 10:16 PM

@ Crypsen

I am on the verge of trying to do what you have done, the tech pace in my game is slow on my continent, basically because i limited trade and i myself researched my last tech at minimum with a scientist. i kept myslef ahead, but the others behind and did not try to do things which would accelerate my tech rate, it netted a lot of gold. Now i am planning a war with the Aztecs using primarily the JT while they are still in the AA and have no upgrade available to knights / med inf / pikes / longbows. The JT as a 2/2/1 can compete with any of the normal UU & bests the Aztec UU (I am referring to strength and mean no argument about the bonuses of the extra movement & retreat etc, etc.) I am actually hoping the Aztecs have a lot of units, and I think if used right, this strategy could definitely pay off big time, or it could crash and burn. I doubt I will have the success you had though with 100+ slaves, but I sure will enjoy trying.

fbouthil

Sep 07, 2004, 11:13 PM

Open

I meet america & aztec very soon, before I have built a single settler!

2190BC Aztecs bring 1 archer & 2 warriors near Copan. I pop-rush a spearman and Aztecs loose their 2 warriors against it. Ouf!

2110BC Meet Iroquois

1075BC Switch to republic after the popular republic gambit.

1050BC Contact Spain

510BC-110BC War with Aztecs leaving them 2 useless cities. Could have done better if I built more horsemen instead of JT. Got furs & ML on the last turn of war.

I enter MA around 50BC. About half of the continent was still unknown to me at the time. I did not even know where Spain was! But I have very little corruption due to the FP in Technotitlan. Those cities would build a lot of knights later, but that is another story... (to be continued)

I thought I did very well, but I see many people got it about 500 years earlier. Of well, I am learning to be more humble.

I see most civ on our continent started with more than one food bonus so I guess Ainwood was not that generous after all. ;)

Randy

Sep 07, 2004, 11:50 PM

COTM04 open

I blew my time log around 2500 BC so I'm doing this from memory. :confused:

Goal quick as fast as I can get a domination win.

Start, worker went Ne, settler N. Founded Chichén Itza in 3950 BC. Study Alphabet @ 100%.

Built warrior, warrior, settler. I did this until I could build archors and swordsmen.

3300BC met Aztecs, 3150BC met an unexcorted American settler heading toward the silk. I chased him all the way back to Washington.

2850 BC: Copán founded. This puts the silk in Mayans land :goodjob:
2670 BC: Silk is hooked up.

My notes stop in 2550 BC this is were I attack :ar15: an American worker. America only has 1 city they did not use the settler yet. NY was founded west of Washington. I got NY, all American techs, and all their gold for peace.

During the American war I met the Spanish. (I almost killed their warrior.) :crazyeye:

I built a line of cities to block the Aztecs, I don't want to take on Jaguar Warriors yet. I'll wait for iron or horses. I later learn that Copán has iron and the next city over has horses.

I started the Spanish war :sniper: before they had 3 cities. I destored their size 1 second city. Made piece for all they had.

During one of these wars I got my Republic sling shot.[dance]

The turn I met the Iroquois I took 2 of their settlers :sniper: . They gave 2 or 3 cities for piece.

Around the time of the Iroquois war I started a war with the Aztecs, they were trying to send settler thru Mayans land. I took 3 cities. They give 3 cities for peace.

Next Americans now have 2 or 3 cities again. I kill them off and they respond in the south tundra. They give all they have for piece. I think 100gp and a worker.

At this time I also attack spain and Iroquois (I'm at war with 3 of 4 of the known civs. by choice. I hope this isn't stupid.)

Spain is gone, they do not respond. :banana:

Around this time I enter the MA. Can't remember the year maybe late BC?

All my galleys sank. Alot of them. [pissed]
The Iroquois are almost gone.
The Aztecs are no threat.
The Americans have 2 tundra cities.

plarq

Sep 08, 2004, 12:51 AM

Open (Sorry for no clear timeline)

Build cities along the river
Warrior explore NW and S found America and Aztec
Buy CB from America,Suddenly found Washington D.C was captured by Aztecs.
Silk was controlled by American Philadelphia.Declare war on US, break gpt trade and razed Philly, had the silks,start dep GA.
Fight the US and seeing Aztec was gracious towards us.Had all American gold and techs for peace.Buy writing,Build embassy in NYC,steal Math from US.Contact Spain and Isabella knew our cheating US.Seeing US cities captured one by one by Aztecs.Monty didn't know my wrongs,he did't talk US!
New York was captured, but US wasn't wiped out, so Respawn must be on.
Rebuild embassy in Seattle on the SW end of our continent, poor Abe!
Pulling troop south, suddenly Aztec declared on us!Raze two new cities and captured one desert city in southern Maya. We started an revenge with Aztecs.Recaptured the city, go over mountain seperating Aztec and Maya.JTs and Swords and Horse and several cats gave a killing blow on Aztec plain. Razed their capital and two big cities near by,and Aztecs allied with Iroquios I met last turn on the Iron city on the west border of Maya.
I got Philo-MM(Free) and start on CoL building Lighthouse. Defeat the MW flood on my western borders, I also noticed Iros betrayed Aztecs and captured NYC!So my small wandering JTs attack and controlled Washington, sign peace with Aztecs.I also got a Leader and build a Sword army, build Heroic Epic on eastern coast(I abandoned Lighthouse).
The rampaging Iros keep on attacking us, I sign RoP and Alliance with Aztecs vs. Iros. Aztecs' spears and archers came to defend my front, Thx, Monty!
when most MW died on my Iron west, Aztecs suddenly sign peace with Iros!Why?We're going to win! I counterattacked Iros on the landbridge from Iro to former America,captured one city, JTs from Washington attack and autorazed New York.ANd sign peace with Iros demanding their techs and land bridge cities,left their cities in former America.They keep on reinforceing their American front while my SoD blocked the land bridge.
Build culture in Washington D.C to produce US-Gems,develope techs and send out galleys,play as a NOT and going feudalism, enter MA.Wage war after seeing message,and captured Lighthouse from Aztecs!
BTW:How to send suicide galleys, my ships just can'tstand on ocean tiles, even with Lighthouse.

CarnDaWoods

Sep 08, 2004, 02:32 AM

YOu have to use the keypad to move Galleys into the ocean tiles. They can not be sent there with the mouse.

Psychonaut777

Sep 08, 2004, 02:34 AM

Yeah they can you just have to move one square at a time.

LeSphinx

Sep 08, 2004, 02:35 AM

zamint3 , how do you zoom in order to take the big picture of all your cities ?
LeSphinx

Capt Buttkick

Sep 08, 2004, 02:43 AM

First: The tech race. I think most would agree that slowing down the tech race is, in general, counter productive. However, is it that much of a handicap? It would certainly depend on the game, but in many I'm not sure it would be a huge factor. I wouldn't want to try to do it on a single continent game, as there would be far too much chance of one AI taking an every growing the lead in technology. However, with islands or two continents, as long as your neighbors are equal or less, there isn't too much to worry about. In this game, I don't really care if the civ's on the other continent take a tech lead. As long as I don't see bombers coming after my knights, I'm not worried. Shear production of having the most landmass always allows for a comeback.
This is standard tactics for the big guns, I believe. I try to do it more and more myself.

Second: The Javalin Throwers, as stated above, nothing special about the unit in terms of combat or cost. Being a low level ancient time unit they are game-wise weak, but certainly equal to their times. So what it all really boils down to is their unique ability: Enslavement. Can enslaving make up for a slowed tech research?
I'm not sure you need to slow down research deliberately in this game to use JTs effectively. There are lots of close neighbours so the added movement of the horse is less of a factor (of course retreat ability is still a major factor which is why I started building horses at ~ 15 JTs.
However, jumping to answer your question: I do believe that for my playstyle, when I'm warmongering at the least, enslavement is a precious ability. I had around 20 aztec slaves before ending my BC war with them, only 2-3 of those were captured, the rest of them were enslaved. This meant I didn't have to use up much resources for early worker production in the captured cities, which again meant a lot more turns (combined) of scientists as the cities grew bigger.

...a worker also represents a unit of city population, which means one less tile being worked. That means the loss of (the reasonably low estimate) at least a shield and a gold as income.
I'm not altogether sure on this. I usually build very few workers off cities that aren't getting near the happyness limit, growth limit (size 7, or 6 and a full food storage in cities w/o an aqueduct) or are totally corrupt. I think a short-term sci loss (turning a citizen into a scientist instead of building a worker) is the most you actually gain from not building the worker. I'm not saying that this isn't substantial, I usually have too few workers. But I make sure I don't loose many shields by building workers.

Now, Maya's are industrial, which means that workers work 50% faster, and slaves work at only 50%.
Slaves under an industrious civ work at 75% of normal (non-industrious) worker speed in C3C. Are you sure you didn't look at slave workers under anarchy or something? :confused:

Therefore, a Mayan slave, in Ancient times, is worth about 2 gold per turn. Not much, but not to be ignored either.
I'd call this significant, even more so considering that you seem to have calced one gold upkeep for our workers. Most of us use republic so that's +2 gold upkeep for each domestic worker :thumbsup:

Now, in my game, I'm about a third of the way in at turn 162. I currently have 137 slaves (according to Civ assist.) I've also lost at least a dozen more due to bad management. Mind you, I also had to use no small amount of Javelin Throwers to acquire them all. I've probably lost a lot more then 40 JT's, but lets call it 40 for this theory. I'm thinking that if I had traded in 20 of those lost JT's for 30 catapults, well, I'd still have lost the other 20 JT's just from the nature of combat, BUT, I'd still have the 30 extra catapults. Those, along with the 30 I currently have would make for 60 catapults, which is nothing to ignore. In fact, I think its safe to say that I'd also have several extra cities by now, and and another dozen or two slaves.
Like I said before, I switched off JT production earlier, but I don't have nearly as many slaves as you either. I think this will vary from game to game and depend on where you're going with your game. I would never consider using JTs against 3-defense units though, and most of my kills were against hurt spears or warriors/Jags/archer :cool:

Third: Once you destroy another civilization, you can take all your slaves from that civilization and safely turn them into population in your cities, therefore gaining the full income of a shields, gold, food, etc. which could easily add up to the equivalent of 5 gold or more per turn/each.
I like my no-upkeep workers, thank you [pimp]

Caldazar

Sep 08, 2004, 02:45 AM

I've been playing a few games on large worlds, but I keep forgetting how close everyone are.
I met the Aztecs just a few turns after I started to move my first warrior. My first building
que was warrior --> warrior --> settler --> granary --> many settlers...

I wanted to settle my second city fairly early and this was a good move in my opinion, since
I managed to link the spices quickly so I was in no need of increasing the luxuries. I also built
the second city quickly because I wanted MP in my capital and military to scout and protect
my lands. If I don't scout my land thoroughly I tend to place my cities without thought, or
perhaps I'll lose important resources/luxuries, which I'm hunting with passion :)

I have played quite a few games with multipel fronts before, I know the outcome of such
a game. Even if I win, it's always better to take out enemies one by one. At this time I
found the Americans to be a greedy lot, though they managed to build lots of spears
early on, so I figured I needed an allied to bring them down quickly. It was not hard to
convince Spain, that the Americans in fact was looking for world domination. The deal ended
up pretty good actually, and I decided to spare the Spaniards for now. Spain was able to
limit the amount of American reinforcement to their more distant towns, while the mighty
Mayans captured them one after another. Finally the fearsome JT stood outside of Washington,
but they decided to wait for the some Swords before they started the attack. At this
time, not surprising at all, the Aztecs demanded at tribute. They wanted silks and the
Mayans decided that this was something they could afford, for now. So there was no
war against the Aztecs at this time, who had grown quite powerful.

Highlights:
* Mayan was able to capture all American towns and keep the Spaniards at their peninsula.
(Except one town north of the Spanish border).
* They also manage to build quite a few AA wonders, even though this was not exactly a goal,
but a bonus.
* Big tech lead

Failures:
* Failed the slingshot to Republic, another civilization manage to get Philosophy before the Mayans.
* Failed to make an early contact with the other civilizations, which rendered the GL less profitable.

Capt Buttkick

Sep 08, 2004, 02:47 AM

zamint3 , how do you zoom in order to take the big picture of all your cities ?
LeSphinx
Press 'z' for zoom :)

Cryspen

Sep 08, 2004, 02:47 AM

zamint3 , how do you zoom in order to take the big picture of all your cities ?
LeSphinx

That would the the 'Z' key (for Zoom)

Check out:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7359

for a great reference file, including they keyboard commands.

LeSphinx

Sep 08, 2004, 03:01 AM

Thanks Cryspen
LeSphinx

Cryspen

Sep 08, 2004, 03:09 AM

Slaves under an industrious civ work at 75% of normal (non-industrious) worker speed in C3C. Are you sure you didn't look at slave workers under anarchy or something? :confused:

Just doubled checked:

In regular games, a non-industrious worker on a grassland takes:

3 turns to Road
4 turns to Irrigate
6 turns to Mine

With Industrious:
2 turns to Road
3 turns to Irrigate
4 turns to Mine.

Definitely a 50% speed increase.

While I haven't check what slaves can do in other games, in this game, they definately take:

6 turns to Road
8 to Irrigate
12 to Mine

Which makes them 1/3 the speed of Mayan workers.

(Edit: and a whopping 48 to clear Jungle. I have a stack of 66 to cut, road, & mine all in one turn)

Gyathaar

Sep 08, 2004, 05:03 AM

Noticed something later in this game with workers and industrious trait.

Seems like after you get replaceable parts the slaves gets the industrious trait (aswell as getting their speed doubled)

Pre replacable parts (in republic):
to build a mine on grassland, or railroading on grassland;
slave : 12 turns
worker : 4 turns
48 slaves to clear jungle

after replacable parts (still in republic):
to build mine on grassland, or railroading on grassland;
slave : 4 turns
worker : 2 turns
16 slaves to clear jungle

in other words after you get replacable parts the slaves work as fast as your normal workers did before getting it

Capt Buttkick

Sep 08, 2004, 05:18 AM

Weird, now I'm :confused:

Thanks for the input, though, Gyathaar :thumbsup:

eldar

Sep 08, 2004, 06:36 AM

Re: tech rate

Whilst I wasn't doing anything to encourage the AI to research too quickly, I wasn't stopping them. My first sign that they weren't researching as quickly as I'd have liked was in the start of the MA, where I'd researched, by myself: Engineering, Monotheism, Theology, Chivalry, before they came up with Feudalism. Not like I hadn't given them the chance or anything....

Neil. :cool:

Roland Ehnström

Sep 08, 2004, 10:31 AM

Yeah, the AI are researching VERY slowly in this game! So slowly, in fact, that I am wondering if there is a bug somewhere.
-- Roland

grs

Sep 08, 2004, 10:34 AM

It's not a bug, it's Monarch ;)

For real: in my game the AI was pretty much at war all the time and at that level this leaves them with very few resources for research.

Edit: and it is a large map!

dmanakho

Sep 08, 2004, 10:42 AM

There are reasons for slow AI research.

1. It's only a monarch level
2. There are only 4 AIs on our continent and most players dispatched them early in the game so those AIs after initial few turns were unable to do anything.
3. On the remote continent... Oh... that i will leave for the next spoiler.

EsatP

Sep 08, 2004, 12:54 PM

It is good game. I find 2 (!!!!) settlers from huts. I think american and iroques takes techs from huts.
I build Piramids 1400 BC,
Hanging gardens 410 BC
Great Library 300 AD and begin MA
first azteks war around 450BC-190AD
and all cities build only horses.

Alphons Rodulfo

Sep 08, 2004, 01:26 PM

(Open) What a change this GOTM is from the previous one. I tried to beat GOTM 3 maybe five times but lost every time. I am doing pretty decent in this one, as everybody is, I'm sure. I won't bother you with my time line, it's sufficient to explain that I used my capital as a settler factory, as discussed in the pre-game thread. It was the first time I consciously made such a thing, and I must say it really helps having a constant flow of settlers. Have any of you made other specific settler/worker factories besides the capital?

Maybe it's funny to mention that my first warrior had a terrific career. I send him north, where he discovered the Iroquois. He was ambushed by barbarians in a swamp and reduced to one hit point, barely surviving the ongoing attacks of a decently sized stack of barbs. He got out of this as an elite and returned home to defend our northernmost city, somewhere near the cow. Later, he was the only defender when our city was besieged by mounted Iroquois and did his job so well that he became a great leader. Nice eh? This leader made an army of swordsman, which later perished in a reckless attack behind enemy lines, sadly enough. But still we remember the bravery and persistence of our first Mayan warrior.

Next time, I will certainly try out Dmanakho's suggestion of building horsemen in stead of swordsmen for the Ancient Era conquests. I presume people who use horses in stead of swords also put the horses in any armies they might have gained?

dmanakho

Sep 08, 2004, 01:34 PM

Next time, I will certainly try out Dmanakho's suggestion of building horsemen in stead of swordsmen for the Ancient Era conquests. I presume people who use horses in stead of swords also put the horses in any armies they might have gained?

It may sound strange but when i play conquest i'd much rather prefer an army of swordsmen instead.... While having an extra defence and attack point when built of swordsmen, conquests army has an extra movement rate, so it's essentially a horseman :-)
If i play PTW i would probably use a leader to rush GW

Alphons Rodulfo

Sep 08, 2004, 02:14 PM

It may sound strange but when i play conquest i'd much rather prefer an army of swordsmen instead.... While having an extra defence and attack point when built of swordsmen, conquests army has an extra movement rate, so it's essentially a horseman :-)
If i play PTW i would probably use a leader to rush GW

That makes sense, but it would probably take you more time to have the army ready because you will have many horsemen ready, but swordsmen you would have to build first before you can join them to the army.

And how about putting javelin throwers in an early Mayan army? This would a very powerful slavegathering machine which might still be useful in the later ages, to finish off weakened enemy units. Or is this a bad idea?

dmanakho

Sep 08, 2004, 02:31 PM

That makes sense, but it would probably take you more time to have the army ready because you will have many horsemen ready, but swordsmen you would have to build first before you can join them to the army. ?

how about those warriors you have hanging around since very beggining of the game... just upgrade those and you get instant swords :)

And how about putting javelin throwers in an early Mayan army? This would a very powerful slavegathering machine which might still be useful in the later ages, to finish off weakened enemy units. Or is this a bad idea?

Interesting idea, never tested it. I have a feeling JTs will lose their enslaving abilites once joined in to the army.... and would it make a difference if you have 3 JT army or 1JT and 2 different units :confused:

Cryspen

Sep 08, 2004, 02:42 PM

Interesting idea, never tested it. I have a feeling JTs will lose their enslaving abilites once joined in to the army.... and would it make a difference if you have 3 JT army or 1JT and 2 different units :confused:

Don't know about a mixed army, but I am pretty sure my armies of JT's have Enslaved other units.

Alphons Rodulfo

Sep 08, 2004, 03:44 PM

I think it works like this: the army is a stack of units, the first unit in the stack always attacks first, until it runs out of hit points, after which the next unit attacks, etc.. I think one can derive this from the animation of an attacking army. I also think that the order of units in the army is always the same and is determined by the order in which the units initially join. I assume the order in which the units attack can also be seen when you right-click on an army and you see the list of units in the army. The unit listed on top probably always attacks first. If this is true, and the unit that is joined to an army first ends up on top of the stack, a good idea for an early Mayan army could be to first join two javelin throwers, followed by an elite swordsman or a medieval infantry if that is available. The latter could act as a safeguard against the javelin throwers loosing their fights. The javs should always attack first because they will do the enslaving. Still later in the game, when you receive the ability to have an army of four units, you could add a modern armour or something like that to the army in order to maintain your überslavemaker. :whipped:

Cryspen

Sep 08, 2004, 04:15 PM

I would never consider using JTs against 3-defense units though, and most of my kills were against hurt spears or warriors/Jags/archer :cool:

I agree :goodjob: , which is kind of my point about why you would need to slow down the tech race. I am certainly into Middle ages well before 0 AD on a lot of my games, as many are with this game. Once into MA, you're looking at a whole lot of units with a defense of 3 or more :eek: .

Now, I may in fact try to push my JT's lifespan even a little further, as I think with good use of artillery, a 4 HP JT can take a 1 HP pikeman in anything less then a walled town.

It'll be interesting to see how many JT's I can produce before the GL spits out Engineering to me. Then I'll have to see if I should hold onto them as JT's, or upgrade to Longbowmen.

However, I reckon my 16+ HP JT armies will be useful for a long time to come, if only as defense. Hopefully, I'll gather a few more slaves off of them, even if I have to abandon JTs for the remaining game.

However, before I can get back to the game, I really must go clean up the garage, which I'll never do if I start playing again... :rolleyes:

Crakie

Sep 08, 2004, 05:22 PM

As much as I like to read other folks' logs, I don't keep one myself so I won't be able to detail my moves. Instead, I would like to raise a few general points:

1) How about the Javalin Thrower... they are perfect for getting slaves from the barb camps. The downside would be triggering an early GA if you end up at war and being forced to use them. I myself didn't worry about the timing of the GA this time, and I think it paid off. I could leasurely keep building settlers during my GA AND fight a war with the Americans at the same time.

2) Was it just me, or were the barb galleys stronger than usual? I had numerous curraghs and galleys sunk, even when they operated in pairs or even a threesome. One would almost think Ainwood doesn't like us contacting the rest of the world before navigation ;-)

3) I built granaries before anything else in the first 6 or 7 core cities... a good decision I think. High pop + industrious/agricultural trade + slaves = alot of gold. I was outresearching the AI by far... almost got all the techs myself after the 1st tier. Instead, the money was well spent on dealing with WW during republic warfare.

4) The AI seemed quite agressive in my game. I ended up being at war with all but the Spanish before the MA. Particularly, the Aztecs declared when I was at war with the Americans and the Iroqois when the war with the Americans was over, but I was still at war with the Aztecs. The Spanish were my friend and happily joined whenever I asked them to. Maybe not a bad decision from the AI, because I had my forces committed elsewhere, but my military was ranked strong and that is what the AI is supposed to factor in right?

denyd

Sep 08, 2004, 05:45 PM

I'll join in on this since I've qualified (put post the tale of Mursilis later).

I've also noticed the slow tech pace for my neighbors and that was before the wars started. Also with the exception of the very early wonders, nobody has been interested in building them. I got a couple just by default.

A couple of other points. I noticed EsatP mentioning gettting settlers from huts, I never saw any huts and land barbarians were only a problem for my neighbors. I did lose quite a few curraghs to barbarian galleys. They'd gang up on my poor little curragh. He'd win against the first one or two but get redlined in the process and then lose to the third.

Finally, were Military Great Leaders turned off for this game? I've won over 50 elite battles so far and have yet to get my first MGL.

QSC stats:
12 Cities
2 Settlers in transit
2 more settlers about to complete
6 Workers, 1 Slave and 2 workers about to complete
31 citizens
13 Warriors, 3 Javelin Throwers & 2 Curraghs (and 2 RIP Curraghs)

Gwyned

Sep 08, 2004, 05:51 PM

First time poster, first time COTM, but long-time lurker... ;)

Like virtually everyone, I moved my settler NE to the river and proceeded to get the wheat irrigated by the time the culture expanded. Again, like most, I built Warrior, Warrior, Granary, Settler. Due to a miscalculation, my 1st settler didn't come until 2710BC, and for whatever reason after that I only managed a 5 turn Settler pump. Still, I managed to grab both the spices and the silks, and very early hook up both the horses and the iron. After initially being far behind in techs, I managed to get the lead by strategic trading...but out of fear of losing the extra tech from Philosophy, I completed it before CoL, taking Literature instead as my free tech.

By 1050BC, I had built 9 cities, and declared war against the Inca, hoping to take down the early leader. On the same turn, however, the Iriquois sneak attacked, forcing me to a two-front war. Still, only a few turns later I managed to capture Tenochtitlan, only to have it flip one turn later, taking with it several of my 8 swordsmen. In the ensuing war, I managed to get an early MGL, allowing my to mow down the Inca (and finally recapture Tenochtitlan), leaving the Inca with a measily 3 or 4 cities down in the tundra. During this period, I also researched Monarchy, which soon became the Maya government of choice.

By 500BC, my galleys/curraghs had mapped the entire coastline, and when we were ushered into the Middle Ages around 150BC, I currently had 15 cities, a swordsman army, and a decent sized standing force of several horsemen and spearmen.

In addition to the luck of an early MGL, I also did not lose a single ship to the barbs, amazingly enough! In fact, my 1st two curraghs both became elite in their first encounters with the barb galleys! :lol: To balance this, however, my poor Javelin Throwers have yet to produce a single slave, although my war with Inca and the Iriquois certainly produced a few. Of course, it would help if I could actually find some barbarians...they all seem to be hiding... :rolleyes:

Below is a screenie of the center of my position and a close-up of my minimap (with the appropriate 'further explorations' removed to protect the naive).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/gmlscrnsht.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/gmlmnmp.jpg

My current plans involve wiping out the pesky Iriquois, who seem to always have a personal vendetta against me in Civ3...they always attack me, at the most inconvenient times. Of course, America is currently blocking the way, so I'll probably enlist them in a alliance as well as a ROP agreement. Naturally, once the Iriquois are gone, America will be my next victim...followed finally by Spain. Once the continent is mine...well, that's for another time...

Gwyned

Denniz

Sep 08, 2004, 06:44 PM

Finally, were Military Great Leaders turned off for this game? I've won over 50 elite battles so far and have yet to get my first MGL.
I got a leader with my first elite battle. I have gotten 6 or 7 so far (early Mod age). Normally, my results are more like yours. Just the fickle RNG, I guess.

Gyathaar

Sep 08, 2004, 07:14 PM

Open

Decided to go for a histographic win this game (already starting to regret it.. closing in to 50 hours played in 1500AD).

Moved worker nw to the bous grass.. saw more BG that would end up in capital radius if moving settler NE, so did so.. roaded bonus grass, then irrigated it, moved to wheat, irrigated and roaded.. which finished just before cultural expansion.

Traded for alphabeth with my neighbours, then did min research on writing followed by max on CoL, then pilosophy. Got Republic in 1000BC, and revolted. Drew a 5 turn anarchy.

Had meanwhile done expansion and heavy exploring with curraghs (found the 2nd continent in 1250BC, but boat got killed by barbs before I could contact anyone there :( ).

Stats in 1000BC:

14 Cities (pop 32)
13 workers plus 1 slave
19 warriors
5 javelin throwers
1 Curraghs (no clue how many suicide ones lost :) )

4 barracks
1 granary

5 turns anarchy remaining untill republic
Missing : Construction,currency,literature,map making,polytheism,monarchy

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/COTM4_1000BC_Gyathaar.JPG

Entered MA in 250BC, at this point in golden age and having all the AA techs (all the optional ones)

At this point 19 Cities with 86 population
21 workers, plus 7 slaves
(hardly saw any landbound barbs.. wish you could put a JT on a galley and enslave some of the countless barb galleys :P )

dmanakho

Sep 08, 2004, 07:15 PM

2) Was it just me, or were the barb galleys stronger than usual? I had numerous curraghs and galleys sunk, even when they operated in pairs or even a threesome. One would almost think Ainwood doesn't like us contacting the rest of the world before navigation ;-)

Interesting point :mischief: .. Ainwood certainly could have made it possible... Personally i didn't do any sea exploration until i recearched Navigation, this way i was hoping to get some use of GL i had.

3) I built granaries before anything else in the first 6 or 7 core cities... a good decision I think. ....I was outresearching the AI by far... almost got all the techs myself after the 1st tier.

Same happened to me... I was outresearching AIs from the very beginning even with having only 2 granaries.

I've also noticed the slow tech pace for my neighbors and that was before the wars started.

Another reason for slow research on our continent - small number of AIs and the fact that they were geographically separated (especially Aztecs) so they it took very long time for them to find each other and to speed up a tech pace a little by trading as AIs usually do...they had little time until most human players started warfares crippling AIs. or so my theory is :confused:

Finally, were Military Great Leaders turned off for this game? I've won over 50 elite battles so far and have yet to get my first MGL

They were not off, but in my game i waged constant wars almost with no interruption and only had 3 MGLs total. So you are not alone having such a bad luck this time. ;)

Kaiser_Berger

Sep 08, 2004, 09:01 PM

Open

My Ancient age didn't shape up much different than everyone else's. By 1000 BC, I had 13 cities.

Some highlights I had:

The Americans plopped Boston down on the Silks. In 2090 BC I declared war and walked into undefended Boston, razing it. In 1910, I sued for peace, getting CB and The Wheel.

In 975 BC, the Aztecs pulled a sneak attack on me, but didn't gain anything. In fact, I managed to get a city in peace.

In 875, I learned Philosophy, but receive no free tech. The other continent is obviously ahead in tech.

In 410 I finally learned Republic the hard way, and got 5 turns of anarchy.

It was round this time I entered the MA. I didn't write down the exact date, but it happened shortly after my Republic was formed.

As I entered the MA, I was preparing to wipe out America with my horseman force I had built up.

Randy

Sep 09, 2004, 01:01 AM

Finally, were Military Great Leaders turned off for this game? I've won over 50 elite battles so far and have yet to get my first MGL.

No, I had about 7 or 8. If only this were PtW. I've never had so many leaders.

eldar

Sep 09, 2004, 01:49 AM

I've had 1 MGL so far, and build a Sword army and the Epic. Probably about right for the number of Elite wins, not been getting many since Knights vs Spears isn't a very fair fight ;-)

Neil. :cool:

Peglegasus

Sep 09, 2004, 08:48 AM

Again, like most, I built Warrior, Warrior, Granary, Settler. Due to a miscalculation, my 1st settler didn't come until 2710BC, and for whatever reason after that I only managed a 5 turn Settler pump.

Welcome to the GOTM! The thing with the 4 turn settler factory that was confusing for me at first is the tag under your city actually says settler in 5 turns. The trick is to keep your growth at 2 turns and having a tile to "grow into" that will generate an extra couple shields, like a mined bonus grass or a forest tile. For me I was growing from 4 to 5 and my growth rate would drop to 3 because my new citizen was placed on the forest. Right after my city grows to 5 I have to move that citizen from the forest, I actually would just put him onto a roaded grass tile by the river. This puts my factory back at growth in 2, settler in 3. That's the confusing part because when my city grows in 2 turns, the new citizen again gets put automatically onto the forest, generating the last couple shields needed for that settler, so the settler is completed one turn early, in 4 turns instead of the 5 initially shown. Hope this makes sense to ya'! Took me a while to get it.

WackenOpenAir

Sep 09, 2004, 10:50 AM

A few things:
First of, i think people give too much info on "the other continent"

-"Another reason for slow research on OUR continent "
-"On the remote continent... Oh... that i will leave for the next spoiler."
-And more.
While it all is not direct information, it gives too much clues IMO. I only played till 550BC yet and never seen it, but start getting quite some ideas about it from reading this tread.

And to ainwood:
would it be possible to take out cities/settlers from goody huts? getting one of these early on gives such a HUGE advantage. And if i see people getting 2 from huts, i think it gives way too much of a luck factor in the gotm. I can only dream of how strong my empire would be if i had found 2 free settlers (i have none, i never ever seem to get those)
(edit: same goes for sgl)

Alphons Rodulfo

Sep 09, 2004, 11:04 AM

A few things:
would it be possible to take out cities/settlers from goody huts? getting one of these early on gives such a HUGE advantage. And if i see people getting 2 from huts, i think it gives way too much of a luck factor in the gotm.
(edit: same goes for sgl)

Why take out a normal part of the game? Is it that bad if some other people have a bit more luck than you sometimes? Popping goody huts is always a risk, it is nice to have rewards for taking this risk in a game.

Peglegasus

Sep 09, 2004, 11:55 AM

Open Class

As soon as I knew we would be playing the Maya I knew I wanted to go for a space race victory. For one I haven't done it in a long time. Secondly I'm inspired by the end of Star Wars episode IV where the lookout at the rebel base is scanning incoming ships, looking out over a huge forest where you can see stone structures peeking out above the trees. Well those structures are the temples of Tikal, built of course by the Maya.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/rebel2_sm.jpg
The Maya were also avid astronomers and astrologers. Many of their wars and important events were planned around significant astronomical events. So space race it is.

Opening moves: I moved the settler NE and settled on the river like most people did. My worker roaded the starting tile and then the adjacent BG, mined the BG, then moved back to irrigate the starting grass tile and then on to the wheat. I built 3 warriors, then granary, then settlers. First warrior went west and then south after reaching the coast, second went north, third stayed as MP. By 2590BC my settler factory was up and running. We meet the Aztecs in 3350 and they are way too close for comfort. I've had big problems with the Aztecs in some recent random games so I am pre-disposed to going after them ASAP. We meet America soon after in 3100BC, then Spain in 2350BC, and the Iroquois in 1475BC.

Early expansion: My first settler went for the silks to the north. Second settler founded on the river and the coast to the NE. Third settler went for the spices to the south and it was at that time that we discovered the wheel and found horses near that spot as well. After that I just started putting cities wherever looked good. It's nice to not have to worry about RCP for a change. Found 2 goody huts down in the Aztec lands. One gave me maps and the other some gold.

Research: I decided not to go for alphabet first. I was hoping to meet someone that started with it so I went for the wheel at full.
Warrior code from Aztecs for masonry
Ceremonial Burial from America for Warrior Code
Bronze working from Aztecs for Ceremonial Burial.
The Wheel researched
Alphabet from America for the Wheel
Writing, Code of Laws, and Philosophy researched
Republic free tech
Horseback riding and Mysticism from America for Code of Laws
Literature and Mathematics from America for Republic
Currency researched
Map making from Iroquois for Republic
Polytheism from America for Currency
Construction researched (was the only tech the AI beat me to... Spanish got it 2 turns earlier)

I ended up gifting techs to my northern neighbors a lot. I was hoping that they would help me out with research and they certainly did. Either that or they got techs from huts.

The Mayan Republic: We discovered Republic in 1175BC but I decided to wait 2 turns to get a settler and a couple more workers out. We revolted in 1125BC and had 5 turns of anarchy, becoming a Republic in 1000BC

At 1000BC we have: 1 settler, 14 workers, 8 warriors, 2 spears, 2 horses, 2 javelin throwers, 1 curragh, and 3 slaves. We have 12 towns and will research currency in 17 turns, needing polytheism and construction in addition.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/pegmaya1.JPG

The First Star War: In 630BC The Mayan astronomers determine that the time has come for the Aztec nation to fall. It's in the stars after all. We demand 35 gold from Montezuma and they submit. We declare anyway. 5 horses, 2 javs, 3 swords, 2 spears, and 2 catapults move on Tenochtitlan. 5 horses take Calixtlahuaca the first turn. Tenochtitlan is taken 2 turns later. The catapults are used to injure the defending spears, and a javelin thrower triggers our golden age and takes a slave. Texcoco is autorazed the next turn and a settler and a worker are captured.

In 490BC we research construction and enter the Middle Ages. We are of course still in our golden age and at war with the Aztecs. All of the other civs are polite towards us from all of the technology gifts and we have embassies with them all. We are using the production boost from the GA to build libraries and marketplaces.

Upon entering the MA we have 4 settlers (heading to resettle the Aztec lands, 17 workers, 2 warriors, 3 spears, 3 swords, 7 catapults, 1 curragh, and 8 slaves. We have 19 cities and are researching monotheism, hoping the AI will come up with Feudalism. Firaxis score is 424.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/pegmaya2.JPG

smackster

Sep 09, 2004, 12:22 PM

LuuCkyJaa

Sep 09, 2004, 12:53 PM

smackster

Sep 09, 2004, 01:21 PM

smackster,

Thanks for the tip. I had read elsewhere on this site that you would never get a tech you are researching from a goody hut. I didn't realize about the settler.

Obviously, it's less important, but does this also mean you will not get a warrior if you are currently building one? Just curious.
James
Cut and paste from Apolyton

On Goody Hut Discoveries
Here are the conditions:

Gold:
--The tile must not have any type of resource or luxury on it.

Maps:
--always available

Nothing:
--always available

Settler:
--Player must not have a settler (active or in production) or any unit with the Settle AI strategy.
--Player must have less cities than (TotalCities / NumActivePlayers).

Mercenaries (skilled warrior):
--There must be a unit available to the Barbarians as well as the player and that unit must be able to be built (or have been built) by some player in the game.

Tech:
--Player must still be in Ancient Times.

Barbarians:
--Player must not have Expansionist trait.
--There must not be a city within a 1-tile radius.
--The player must have at least 1 city.
--The player must have at least 1 military unit.
--The unit popping the hut must not have the "All Terrain As Roads" ability.

bed_head7

Sep 09, 2004, 01:45 PM

LuuCkyJaa

Sep 09, 2004, 01:48 PM

samckster,

Thanks again. What is a "unit with the Settle AI strategy." Is this a pre-Civ3/Conquests thing? Or have I missed something?

James

Cuivienen

Sep 09, 2004, 01:52 PM

It's in the editor. You can set what an AI uses its units for. For example, if you uncheck "Settle" under AI Strategy for the Settler, the AI will never build cities.

MiniMe

Sep 09, 2004, 02:11 PM

Peglegasus wrote:

As soon as I knew we would be playing the Maya I knew I wanted to go for a space race victory. For one I haven't done it in a long time. Secondly I'm inspired by the end of Star Wars episode IV where the lookout at the rebel base is scanning incoming ships, looking out over a huge forest where you can see stone structures peeking out above the trees. Well those structures are the temples of Tikal, built of course by the Maya.
I am totally inspired by the reason for which you choose your victory condition :goodjob:
Have a good one!

LuuCkyJaa

Sep 09, 2004, 03:04 PM

Cuivienen,

Thanks. I've never opened the editor, and I don't think I'm going to start now. I already spend way too much time just playing and lurking around this website. If I start playing with the editor, creating maps, etc., I'll never get any sleep.

James

denyd

Sep 09, 2004, 03:28 PM

As Mursilis settled into the stasis pod launch chair he glanced once more at Zimbabwe and a combination of sorrow in leaving such a nice planet and excitement to be on the way to his next venue. He had long since given up any hope of reaching Alpha Centauri in the near future and resigned himself to helping new adventurers tame the wilderness of a new world. These new settlers he had agreed to lead were an interesting people. Quite hardworking and wonderful farmers, their tradition of slavery was something Mursilis accepted though did not personally approve of. As the countdown started, Mursilis activated the stasis unit and once again headed to the stars.

The morning sun had not yet begun to light the surrounding countryside when the stasis pod landed on the soft grasslands of a new world. Mursilis noticed hills to the east with a nice little river and a wild crop of wheat to the west. “We’d be best served by settling northeast on that river, “ he commanded and in 3950 BC Chichen Itza was founded.

The first 600 hundred years passed quietly and Mursilis began to wonder if other tribes had settled this planet when word came from Thor, his southern scout that the Aztec people had built a city. The only excitement for the next 500 years was the completion of the granary of Chichen Itza and the acquisition of Bronze Working from the Aztecs.

The next 800 years would see the settling three more Mayan cities, the discovery of writing and finally contact with another tribe, the Americans. A trade of Alphabet to the Aztecs nets The Wheel & Warrior Code and Mursilis has regained tech parity with the known world.

And another 800 years quickly fly by with only new Maya cities being settled, the meeting of the Spanish & Iroquois peoples and the demise of Mayan curraghs to barbarian galleys to provide milestones for the period.

“I guess it’s time I got off my butt and started earning my pay. Please send invitations to all the foreign ambassadors to the inaugural Mayan Trading Conference” Mursilis said to his aides.

Mursilis returned to his office quite please with himself. His treasury now contained all of the gold in the known world and his scientists would spend many long nights studying the information about Mathematics, Ceremonial Burial, Mysticism, Iron Working and Horseback Riding that he was able to obtain from the other tribes. The discovery of the art of Philosophy and the instant reward of a new form of government, The Republic would highlight the end of Smoke Jaguar’s (as Mursilis was now known) first 3000 years as leader of the Mayan empire.

At the celebration of the birth of the Mayan Republic Smoke was informed that the Americans were celebrating a giant stone pyramid in their capital. “Someday, we’ll have to visit Washington and see what that’s all about” he thought.

The second annual Mayan Trade Conference had started wonderfully for Smoke, with the acquisition of Map Making, Construction and Currency, successfully moving his nation to the Middle Ages before any other nation. However, the evening celebrations turned ugly as Montezuma consumed way too much Tequila and began threatening sacrifice the nearest 50 virgins at sunrise. Smoke Jaguar tried to calm the Aztec leader but it was no use and before he night ended the Mayan people were at war with the Aztec.

The mighty Mayan army moved to the hill about Xochicalco and could see the Aztec spearman rushing to attempt to defend the city. When the Javelin Thrower Legolas enslaved the final defender and the populace abandoned the city, the Mayan Golden Age began. As the day ended in Chichen Itza with the news of the scientific discovery of Literature, this chapter comes to an end.

The future looks bright for the Mayan leader. His neighbors, while nearly equal in size, all lack iron, horses or technology to be his match in the battles that are to come. His capital is near to completing the Temple of Artemis, which will provide needed city expansions and culture to his empire and with the impending completion of a coastal palace; soon corruption will be less of a problem.

ainwood

Sep 09, 2004, 07:34 PM

And to ainwood:
would it be possible to take out cities/settlers from goody huts? getting one of these early on gives such a HUGE advantage. And if i see people getting 2 from huts, i think it gives way too much of a luck factor in the gotm. I can only dream of how strong my empire would be if i had found 2 free settlers (i have none, i never ever seem to get those)
(edit: same goes for sgl)
SGL is turned off. As for settlers from goody-huts, I flagged this in the C3C patch requests thread to allow the contents of goody-huts to be specified in the scenario, but its obviously a low-priority for Firaxis. :(

Therefore, I generally remove goody huts from near the start location. There is normally some at a reasonable distance, so a settler there needs to be marched-back to the starting area, or form a largely corrupt city (although it still contributes 'points'). The other alternative is to put in extra goody huts to improve the odds that people will get settlers (even it out that way), but then some might get zero and some might get two. :(

ainwood

Sep 09, 2004, 07:38 PM

SirPleb

Sep 10, 2004, 12:47 AM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif (predator)

Opening Moves

I moved the worker to the wheat, then the settler NE and founded Chichen Itza there in 3950BC.

My worker roaded the wheat, moved NE to the BG to road and then irrigate it, moved back to the wheat to irrigate, moved back to the BG to replace its irrigation by a mine, and then chopped a forest to boost production of a granary.

Chichen Itza built two warriors to explore and then built a granary, completing it in 2950BC. After the granary it built three workers and then ran as a four turn settler factory for a long time.

Exploration and Expansion

My exploring warriors met the Aztecs in 3600, America in 3150, Iroquois in 2550, and Spain in 2110.

I had great luck in 3200BC - I popped a settler from a goody hut northwest of home. This settler returned homeward and founded Copan beside the silks in 2850BC, boosting initial expansion nicely. I didn't get anything else useful from huts in this game nor did I care - that settler was quite enough.

Once I got my settler factory running in Chichen Itza expansion was rapid and straightforward. Barbarians were a nuisance, appearing on the NW/SE diagonal from my towns a couple of times. I lost a few units and in one case rushed a javelin thrower to deal with some barbarians but overall they weren't a big deal - C3C barbarians are very predictable.

As soon as I had some coastal towns I built curraghs to assist in exploration. By 1450BC I'd built four of them. They mapped much of the coastline but sadly three eventually sank during encounters with barbarians.

Research

I began by researching Alphabet at the minimum rate in case I didn't get a chance to trade for it.

When I met the Iroquois in 2550BC I traded for Alphabet and began research in earnest, studying Writing next.

I learned Writing in 1830BC, Code Of Laws in 1500BC, and Philosophy in 1350BC. I held off on trading Writing until then to avoid any chance that an AI might learn Philosophy from a hut. So I was first to Philosophy, got Republic, and immediately revolted drawing a six turn revolution.

Upon learning Philosophy and Republic I immediately traded Writing for all other techs known by the AIs: Mathematics, Ceremonial Burial, Mysticism, The Wheel, and Iron Working. I was pleasantly surprised to find that I had both horses and iron inside my borders.

Next I learned Literature in 1050BC, Construction in 850BC, and Currency in 750BC. At that date I traded for Polytheism and entered the Middle Ages.

War on America

Soon after becoming a Republic I decided I wanted to trigger my Golden Age. I wanted a boost at that time for construction of libraries and a few wonders.

I hadn't built much military. I'd decided not to build a lot of Javelin Throwers. They are over-priced units for their attack strength - their value is in their enslavement ability. I didn't put a high value on slave labor since I'd built a number of workers early on and slaves would be just 1/3 as effective. And I expected to maintain a high tech pace and to obsolete Javelin Throwers quickly. So I built just a few and supplemented them with horsemen. I then attacked America, getting a few slaves, one town, and triggering my Golden Age in 1050BC. As soon as America would talk, in 925BC, I gave her peace for two more towns.

Wonders and Future Plans

Aside from the quick strike on America I focused on growth and research in Ancient Times.

At first I intended to follow my usual approach of not building any early wonders although I did trade Masonry to each rival asap to encourage them to build Pyramids for me. In 1225BC after becoming a Republic I reconsidered. I was fairly sure by that date that we had just four local rivals. That meant six Civs somewhere other than the home continent. Not good odds of getting the Pyramids locally. And I really wanted them on our nice big continent. By this date I'd also seen some suggestive bits of sea beyond our coastal waters. Suggestive that the map might have connections which could be made by a Civ who can traverse sea tiles. So I wanted the Great Lighthouse too. And I wanted Hanging Gardens - there didn't seem to be enough luxuries on the home continent to handle happiness. And of course I wanted a Forbidden Palace.

I didn't have any prebuilds going and it seemed a bit late to start Pyramids and Lighthouse builds at Monarch level. So I decided to fuel their production, and that of my Forbidden Palace, by triggering a Golden Age.

The result is that at the end of Ancient Times in 750BC I have a city which is 1 turn from completing Pyramids, another which is 4 turns from Forbidden Palace, and another which is 10 turns from completing Great Lighthouse.

During the Golden Age I've also made a good start on culture - eight libraries at 750BC and I've taken a cultural lead.

I haven't sent out many suicide galleys. It doesn't seem urgent because remote Monarch level Civs are unlikely to have a tech lead and are unlikely to have much gold yet. So I'm waiting to see whether I get the Great Lighthouse. I'll send ships exploring after that.

I intend to research quickly to Chivalry and then start taking over the home continent with Knights. I'll fill in the outer regions densely so that I can build lots of libraries and temples.

Although I'm going for a culture win I have not worked on building Temple Of Artemis. My thinking is that it would be obsolete relatively quickly because I'll want Education to build universities, and that the 500 shield investment in it wouldn't pay off between the time I could finish it and the time it would become obsolete. I'm not sure about this.

My empire at the end of Ancient Times:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sirplebc04-1a.jpg

QSC Status

At 1000BC I had:
16 towns (15 native, 1 captured) with 54 citizens
1 settler
11 native workers, 3 foreign workers
1 warrior, 3 horsemen, 5 javelin throwers
1 curragh
3 barracks, 2 granaries
219g in treasury

Click here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SirPlebCotm04Qsc.zip) if you'd like a copy of my detailed QSC timeline.

SirPleb

Sep 10, 2004, 12:50 AM

Looking at these openings, i have a question to those who have 16/17 cities at 1000BC, hopefully opening some discussion.

I have build settlers only from my settler factory, and workers mostly from my other cities with granaries to give my remaining cities the opportunity to grow.
At 1000BC, i only have 12 cities, but with 44 total population vs 30 pop in darkness' 17 cities for example.

The difference is that you invest more in future growth by building settlers from your non settler factory cities as well.
The more you invest, the later your cities start growing tall and production will rise, but the bigger the production can be in the end.
On deity/sid, the amount of investment is mostly decided by what the AI lets you get away with (due to available ground and your lack of defence)

I don't have experience with the lower difficulties, but i would expect it not to be optimal to invest as much as the AI allows you. The AI is so weak, i would guess you can finish them off earlier if you make a lower investment. On the other hand, i could say the higher OCN favors a bigger investment on these difficulty levels.
Interesting points!

On reflection I think that the total population number is probably a better indicator of strength than the number of cities. Perhaps the best overall indicator of expansion speed, and maybe also of strength, would be (TotalPopulation + NativeWorkers + Settlers.) That might be used both as an indicator of effectiveness of food use so far and of potential empire productivity.

I'm a strong believer in rapid expansion but my reason for it is more to increase my number of citizens than to increase my land. (Though I do like both :) )

Almost every time I build a settler in the early game he is a fairly short-term investment which I expect will soon be converted to new citizens and/or workers. The settler costs me two citizens wherever I produce him. Suppose he settles after moving for four turns. He then forms a town with one citizen. At a location with no food bonuses, ten turns later he's a town with two citizens. So far I've lost four turns of 2 citizens' work and ten turns of 1 citizen. Now I'm breaking even. In another ten turns I start gaining - I have 3 citizens in the new town. In a total of 28 turns after producing the settler I have finally broken even, I've had the same number of "citizen turns" of work done as I would have if I had not built the settler. And from then on I'm gaining.

Two other effects which come into play in expansion:
1) After some time it becomes expensive (due to unhappiness) or impossible (due to reaching size 6) for a town to continue growing as quickly as it used to. Building settlers before this point seems a good idea because they essentially cost less in this situation, the loss of citizens can be treated as a renewable resource.
2) Citizens further from the core are less productive due to corruption. This is the only balancing factor aside from running out of land which will eventually limit the other factors.

My feeling is that it remains valuable even at Monarch or Regent levels to begin by expanding to take all available land. The larger OCN makes it possible to have a larger productive area. Increasing your city count for unit support in Republic doesn't hurt. It won't be hard to attack Monarch level rivals after they've grown a bit more. And while they're growing they can be useful trading partners.

However some players have shown that early attacks against opponents without building up a lot first can result in very early completion dates. I think a conquest goal can especially benefit from an early attack but other goals may also be able to do so. I don't think it is clear whether a particular approach is best :)

SirPleb

Sep 10, 2004, 12:56 AM

It looks like only a handful of players have explored using the Maya's Unique Unit, the Javelin Thrower. I was wondering what thoughts people had on them?

...

First: The tech race. I think most would agree that slowing down the tech race is, in general, counter productive. However, is it that much of a handicap? It would certainly depend on the game, but in many I'm not sure it would be a huge factor. I wouldn't want to try to do it on a single continent game, as there would be far too much chance of one AI taking an every growing the lead in technology. However, with islands or two continents, as long as your neighbors are equal or less, there isn't too much to worry about. In this game, I don't really care if the civ's on the other continent take a tech lead. As long as I don't see bombers coming after my knights, I'm not worried. Shear production of having the most landmass always allows for a comeback.
I think that if you aren't going for space or diplomatic, slowing down the tech rate can actually be very productive in some games. And that can be true even on a large Pangaea Monarch map - see this GOTM Spotlight page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/spotlight/gotm18_sirpleb.shtml) for a description of my GOTM18 game where I played through to a conquest+domination position using only an Ancient Times UU.

Second: The Javalin Throwers, as stated above, nothing special about the unit in terms of combat or cost. Being a low level ancient time unit they are game-wise weak, but certainly equal to their times. So what it all really boils down to is their unique ability: Enslavement. Can enslaving make up for a slowed tech research?

To most, a worker is a 10 shields inexpensive but required unit. Even the building of a single mine will quickly pay for the worker. But is this all a really all a worker costs? I think not. First, you have upkeep. Not many advanced games let you have total units below that of the free unit costs of your chosen Government. So for simplicity, lets assume a worker also costs 1 gold per turn. There is more though, a worker also represents a unit of city population, which means one less tile being worked. That means the loss of (the reasonably low estimate) at least a shield and a gold as income. This raises the cost of a worker to perhaps 6 gold per turn? Even more in the later game. Now, Maya's are industrial, which means that workers work 50% faster, and slaves work at only 50%. Two Mayan workers can road a tile in one turn, where as it takes 6 slaves to do the same. (No, the industrial trait of the Maya's does not appear to carry over to slaves.) 1.5 vs .5 So a Mayan worker is worth 3 slaves. Therefore, a Mayan slave, in Ancient times, is worth about 2 gold per turn. Not much, but not to be ignored either. Now, corruption has not been factored in here, but for now, consider the fact that a slave is free, or at least zero city shields, and we'll call it even.
That sure is an interesting question. My guess was that enslaving wouldn't compensate for the cost of building many Javelin Throwers. The price in terms of shields, slowed tech to maintain easy targets for them, and slow invasions seemed too high. But I'm not sure. By the end of this COTM we should know better, your game and a few others will probably tell us a lot about this.

About comparing the cost of slave vs. native workers, I think there are more factors which make the comparison even more complicated:
1) I consider workers produced by a town at size 6 to be much cheaper in a sense than other workers. Once a town grows to size 7, it needs twice as much food to produce each additional citizen. In an important sense this means that pumping out workers from a town as it hovers at size 6 costs 1/2 a citizen per worker. Two workers produced at this size cost as much food as one citizen if the city is instead allowed to grow.
2) In towns which have stopped growing because they have no further food, the opportunity cost of pumping out a worker is only the cost of what one citizen could do during the time the town regrows to its maximum size. It is not a cost over indefinite time.
3) Workers produced by totally corrupt towns are pretty much free in terms of production cost.
4) Once I have enough cities, usually not very long into the game, my native workers cost no maintenance at all even in Republic. (In Conquests.)

Third: Once you destroy another civilization, you can take all your slaves from that civilization and safely turn them into population in your cities, therefore gaining the full income of a shields, gold, food, etc. which could easily add up to the equivalent of 5 gold or more per turn/each.
By the time I would no longer prefer to have those workers building improvements, I have no cities they can join except totally corrupt ones. So, pre-Conquests I would say there was little value in doing this except increasing score. (Which certainly does matter.) In Conquests the value has become higher and also depends on the stage of the game. Conquests scientists are very useful at any time. Civil Engineers (once one has Replaceable Parts) can be extremely useful.

bed_head7

Sep 10, 2004, 01:05 AM

I took relatively opposite route of SirPleb, going for the same goal. I have stopped tracking carefully my games, but I will give some quick highlights.

At 1000 BC, I had 14-15 cities and three settlers, which I was relatively happy with, but only two granaries and not much military.

I was forced into a despotic GA by the Aztecs, who attacked a barb farming JT, but discovered Republic one turn later and lucked out and got a three turn revolution.

At the Middle Ages, I have fairly well crippled the Aztecs and the Americans, who built the Temple of Artemis for me. Upon capturing the Temple in 150 BC, my decision for cultural victory was cememted despite the fact that I only had a couple of libraries. Tech rate is going really slow, because I do not play to get to Education, and the AIs on my continent have been useless, though barb uprisings show that the other continent has reached the MA. I plan to slowly research to cavs and the Theology and then shut off research. ICS, which I have never used before and thus have screwed up a bit, should net me 150-175 cities. Only about 40 of these were built when I captured the ToA, so the boost at 850 AD won't be huge.

At about 400 AD, the Iroquios are still untouched, I have 120 cities, am finishing up bottom tier MA techs (so I am overstepping spoiler bounds by a bit), and I have reached 250 cpt and 6000 total culture (all approximate). At this point I am building and rushing libraries in earnest, though I still have very view (literacy is under 10%) and will work on Cathedrals and Colloseums next.

By the way, I stole this strategy from someone who used it in COTM1, so credits to whoever that was, though I can't remember the name, and they probably did a better job with it than me. The fact that I got ToA and I am competing with SirPleb pretty much puts me out of the running for best date, but it has been and will continue to be a learning excercise.

klarius

Sep 10, 2004, 02:23 AM

Therefore, I generally remove goody huts from near the start location. There is normally some at a reasonable distance, so a settler there needs to be marched-back to the starting area, or form a largely corrupt city (although it still contributes 'points'). The other alternative is to put in extra goody huts to improve the odds that people will get settlers (even it out that way), but then some might get zero and some might get two. :(
Well, generally seems not to apply to GOTM 34 and COTM 4.
In the former I had luck and got a top notch direct town, in the latter the Americans got a town right in front of my warrior at a location, which would still be very good and only a few tiles away from the inner core.
I also consider the solution with many goody huts in COTM1 a failed experiment. Not because some got 2 settlers, but because some got settlers in very good positions, while others got only late useless towns or settlers (I got an intermediate there, not very useful right away, but fitting nicely after some expansion).

grs

Sep 10, 2004, 11:43 AM

vanatteveldt

Sep 10, 2004, 01:21 PM

Once again my respect for Sir Pleb - who says you have to choose between many cities and a large population :-)

Below is my (brief) QSC timeline. Overall strategy and comments:

- like many, I did not think the JT of much value. I used it to trigger GA shortly after 1000BC and in total enslaved 2 workers using my one JT. Maybe I should give them more credit :-)

- Given the size of the continent I decided to go for horsemen - knights - cavalry. I did not build any real military until the middle ages - the AI doesn't know how to attack anyway, and then it seemed to make more sense to wait till chivalry, do a mass upgrade and take the continent, get MT, another mass upgrade and get the next continent. For an idea, by 700 BC I had only warriors (I think 9 of them), by 350BC I had 13 horsemen and was researching feudalism, and by 1AD my 23 knights were happily conquering my fellow heathens. From this moment on, the only thing I really did (except for building basic infrastructure and the Sun Tzu) was building and conquering.

- One strategy question: if one wants to go for a quick domination/conquest win, should one just keep on building more army or also spend time building cultural improvements? My army was around 30 knights most of the time, which meant I could easily eat a couple cities per turn but I couldn't really open up a second front to speed things up. What kind of army size would people go for given this map size?

4000 BC
Worker to wheat, road, bg, road, irrigate, wheat, irrigate
capital founded north on river
built two workers, #1 going south then east, #2 going north then west

3400 BC
(worker sequence done, two warriors built, building granary)

3000 BC

Met americans N, Aztecs SSE, did some good trading to get 3 techs and 56 gold for one tech :-)

2750 BC

GRanary done, CI 5 (1t); From now on, CI is 4t settler factory
First city builds 2xMP, barracks, JT, but cannot find any barbarians to enslave
Other cities build one warrior, worker, temple
Peacefully expanding to all directions, no particular targets except for getting two luxuries

1250 BC

Rep. slingshot succeeded, traded writing & philosophy for iron working, math, myst., riding and 260 gold (all they had)
Have decided against JT tactics, will probably go for horsemen -> knights upgrade and be peaceful until then
Will now go into anarchy to become republic after finishing iron settler

1075 BC

RepubliC!
Enemies still don't have anything to sell.
Will invent literature, build up my core lands, go towards chivalry and conquer my continent
Am building three more settlers to finish settlement of immediate area, will build some more workers and then just build up empire & horsemen to upgrade

1000 BC
QSC over, stats:

13 cities, 1 settler (+1 1t, 1 2t), 9 (native) workers
total population in cities: 44, total pop units 55
8 warriors, 1 spearman, 1 jt
gov: rep
4 aa techs missing, local tech leader
pop/gnp/mfg/land: 1.3M / 129 / 43 / 141

dmanakho

Sep 10, 2004, 01:34 PM

Please leave goody huts in and settlers from huts too. There is some randomness in the game - so what? - this is no chess. If you take a look at a couple of GOTMs and COTMs the similarity of names in the top spots does not seem like an indicator of luck being a big factor.

100% absolutely agree... I just can't understand people who want to take randomness out of this game... It will lose all the fun...

Alphons Rodulfo

Sep 10, 2004, 02:25 PM

There was a little debate about armies going on earlier. I believe that the traits of a unit are only transferred to the army when the whole army is made up of that unit. So a mixed army would not allow enslaving, even if the JT won the battle. Perhaps I am wrong, but I do know that a marine army must be made up of all marines in order attack amphibiously.

Because I'm curious about how this works exactly I will do some testing with putting a javelin thrower in an army. An army not being able to make an amphibious attack when not made up of units that posses this trait seems like a slightly different matter to me. I can easily envisage a knight unit drowning when the army leaves the boats, but I do think it would be proper to have a JT in an army mantaining his enslaving capabilities. Stay tuned for the results of my experiments..

Florian K

Sep 10, 2004, 05:30 PM

I’m new to civ fanatics. I used to play a lot of Civiliaztion (mainly Civ1 and Civ2), but never seemed to be able to get interested in Civ3 for very long. My last game of Civ3 was sometime in 2003. I discovered this website a few months ago, and decided playing in the COTM would be fun. I finally had some time this month and downloaded the open class game. After reading some of the posts, and playing half of the game I’ve discovered I need to polish my skills some. I’ve had fun though.

I didn’t keep a log, but I’ll try and recap what I can remember (dates are estimates).

4000 BC Chichen Itza founded (I still don’t quite understand why everyone else moved onto the river); start research of warrior code at 100% science (I figured since I was the Maya I’d use a few javelin warriors); started producing warriors and settlers (I should have produced a granary, but as I said it’s been some time since I’ve played);

3300 BC meet the Aztecs; trade for warrior code; start alphabet research

2500 BC meet the Americans; trade for ceremonial burial

1800 BC meet the Spanish and the Iroquois; trade for bronze working

eventually research alphabet, then writing, then philosophy; take mapmaking as free advance; trade for mathmatics, iron working, mysticism;

research code of laws, currency; trade for construction

research polytheism to enter the Middle Ages in 570 BC

have 17 cities
4 barracks
0 granaries
many warriors, several spearman, two javelin throwers, about 10 catapults

have remained at peace throughout (had to pay one tribute of 10 gold to the Aztecs; I’ll repay that in the near future)

republic, monarchy and literature have not been researched by anyone at this time; I figured the AI would research these and I could eventually trade for them; I didn’t realize just how pathetic the AI was at research (I hadn’t played a game at monarchy since the mid 1990s); I was stuck in despotism until 580 AD before I could change to another government, but that is the story of middle ages

dmanakho

Sep 10, 2004, 06:44 PM

...I still don’t quite understand why everyone else moved onto the river...

Welcome to Cifvanatics.com!!! :band:

and to answer your question - It is very important to build cities near the rivers... If city has an access to the fresh water you don' tneed an aqueduct and it can grow to size 12, if city is not next to the fresh water you will have to build an aqueduct in order for city to grow above size 6....
That alone makes a huge difference...
Plus since Mayan's are agricultural if capital is built next to river it gives instant 3 foods even in despotism instead of 2 food when city is built away from river... This is also very important at the early stages of the game.
THose were the main reasons why almost everyone moved a setter to the river

Danger Bird

Sep 10, 2004, 09:17 PM

First GOTM/COTM, and first time taking notes. I read the pre-game discussion carefully and so I was able to set up my settler factory in the capital and progressed in much the same way as others, but a bit more slowly.

Some milestones:
Second city (Copan on the silks): 2950BC
First luxury (silks) connected: 2670BC
Iron connected: 1325BC (delayed this to have cheap warrior MP)
Philosophy and free republic: 1275BC
Horses connected: 1000BC
Revolt to republic: 690BC (3 turn revolution)
First war (with America) and trigger Golden Age: 450BC
Research currency and enter MA: 370BC

Being my first game where I used a lot of strategies from these forums, I was unsure of a few things...

Initial builds:
In my capital I built warrior, warrior, settler, worker, granary, and then 10 settlers. I see that many others got the settler factory working first, but I was too impatient for that first settler. I thought that settling a second city on the silks and connecting it would help reduce the need for MP (which it did), but I think I used too many worker turns doing this rather than on setting up the SF.
Also, I think I should have built more than one granary. In Ancient times, I think I only built one settler from a city other than my capital.

When to switch to republic:
The slingshot worked well and I had philosophy, republic in 1275BC. But I felt it was way too early to switch and didn't revolt until 690BC. I see many had a much earlier republic: What's the secret to making an earlier republic profitable?

First war:
I think my first war with America went on too long. After my initial onslaught, they were willing to give up half of their cities for peace, but I wanted a military leader, so I kept going even though my units were slow getting to the front. This gave them time to retrench (and slowed my research) and when I had finally destroyed two more cities they were not willing to give up nearly as much. And still no leader. I think I should have built way more horsemen before starting.

Enslavement:
I got far fewer slaves from JTs than I did from capturing/destroying cities. Slaves from JTs was insignificant really. I guess if I had had an earlier all-JT war it would have been different.

Status at 1000BC:
11 cities, 30 population; 3 settlers are 0 to 3 moves away from settling in NW.
Improvements:
- granary: 1 (Chichen Itza)
- temples: 2 , 2 under construction
- barracks: 2
- harbour: 1 under construction
- wonder: Mausoleum under construction
Research: all AA techs but construction, currency, monarchy, literature researched. Now researching at 100% for literature in 8 turns.
Treasury: income 57; research 49, corruption 8, maintenance 5; total: 299; deficit -5.
Military:
3 settlers, 9 workers, 4 slaves (1 more settler in 1 turn)
11 warriors, 6 spearmen, 4 javelin throwers (building 4 spears, 1 JT)
1 curragh (building 1 galley)
Score: 271 (America 247, Aztecs 238, Iroquois 236, Spain 169)

eldar

Sep 11, 2004, 03:00 AM

Everyone else I'm seeing managed the Philo slingshot quite comfortably. Was anyone else beaten to it? I'm beginning to wonder where I went wrong now, and can't figure it out.... I finished Philosophy in 1050BC, ahead of known Civs. The Mausoleum was finished in 825BC by (presumably) this other Civ, which leads me to think they got lucky with huts rather than straight researched it, and all of the necessary techs leading to it.

Neil. :cool:

The Moose

Sep 11, 2004, 04:11 AM

Everyone else I'm seeing managed the Philo slingshot quite comfortably. Was anyone else beaten to it?

Unfortunately, I was also beaten to it (by a then unknown civ). Maybe one of them got it from a barb hut? I wasn't that happy but luckily it was an easy game this time around so I was never on the edge of losing.....
:banana:

eldar

Sep 11, 2004, 04:26 AM

My most annoying experience was getting Philo from a Goody Hut myself whilst I was still researching CoL! (not in this game, of course....)

Neil. :cool:

Ambiorix

Sep 11, 2004, 07:09 AM

Haven't reached MA yet, but won't be able to play beyond the QSC.
QSC stats :
14 cities, 35 pop
1 settler, 9 workers + 2 barb slaves, 11 warriors, 5 javelin throwers, 1 curragh
1 granary, 5 barracks, 1 temple
missing construction (another 11 turns), currency, literature, mapmaking, polytheism and monarchy.
306g

A rather uneventful QSC.

Alphons Rodulfo

Sep 11, 2004, 08:02 AM

About putting Javelin Throwers in an army: Luckily I could find an old Mayan saved game that I could test with. Here are the results:

-The first unit added to the army will be the first to attack or defend.
-In a mixed army, it is easy to determine which unit is doing the fighting by watching the battle animation.
-A javelin thrower in an army keeps his ability to enslave. This does not mean the entire army can enslave, there is only a chance of enslaving when the javelin thrower wins a fight.

I think this means that if playing the Mayans, it might be a good idea to first add one or two javelin throwers to an army, followed by whatever is the currently the strongest other unit.

Roland Ehnström

Sep 11, 2004, 08:23 AM

100% absolutely agree... I just can't understand people who want to take randomness out of this game... It will lose all the fun...

Just a reflection: There is nothing random about CHESS, but it's still great fun, and has been for hundreds (?) of years.

IMHO, strategy and randomness doesn't mix very well. A little randomness is fine, but not game-winning randomness.

-- Roland

grs

Sep 11, 2004, 08:37 AM

Just a reflection: There is nothing random about CHESS, but it's still great fun, and has been for hundreds (?) of years.

IMHO, strategy and randomness doesn't mix very well. A little randomness is fine, but not game-winning randomness.

-- Roland

Once I beat Sir Pleb and Drazek on fastest conquest or domination because of an early settler I will agree. Till then, I stand by my above statement about luck and success

WackenOpenAir

Sep 11, 2004, 11:18 AM

Once I beat Sir Pleb and Drazek on fastest conquest or domination because of an early settler I will agree. Till then, I stand by my above statement about luck and success

Maybe you simply are not as good as them by a long shot, but immagine sir pleb getting a settler from his first hut and drazek never getting one. Almost certainly Sir Pleb would be the winner of that gotm and Drazek won't.

Danger Bird

Sep 11, 2004, 11:41 AM

IMHO, strategy and randomness doesn't mix very well. A little randomness is fine, but not game-winning randomness.

-- Roland

There was a lot of randomness in real decisive battles though. The Mongols invading Japan being wiped out by a typhoon is one example.

Part of the fun is watching unexpected things happen, even if they sometimes happen to you :eek: - and I usually forget about it 1000 years later anyway. Still, if it's a competition, I agree that an early settler is pretty unbalancing.

LuuCkyJaa

Sep 11, 2004, 11:52 AM

I think that randomness adds to the gameplay. It makes you have to put more thought into strategy. And after all, it is a game. Why shouldn't luck be a factor? As it is, things are almost too predictable (knowing what the AI's are likely to research, etc.)

I'm all for keeping settlers in goody huts and wish SGL's were turned on in COTM (even though I've had no luck even getting an MGL in this game).

BTW, when can we expect the Middle Ages spoiler thread? As a novice COTM player, I'm really looking forward to seeing how well others have done. I have lacked direction and really want to see what strategy others have employed.

James

Mistfit

Sep 11, 2004, 12:13 PM

Having not played the GOTM before I guess I did not realize that you kept such good records of your progress. I did however remember reading somewhere that it was a good idea to keep the 1000bc save just incase people don't believe you played legally. I opened back up the save and took some pics of the 1000bc time frame.
1000bc
11 cities
30 population
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/1000bc2.jpg
Units:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Units.JPG
Bank Info:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Bank_info.JPG
Mini Map:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/minimap.jpg
In the map I've listed the order of the towns that I settled. (15 went to the SW on the coast)
Things I messed up on:
~I decided to take out the Aztec 1st.
This wasn't prolly my best choice with their early UU. In hind sight I should have gone after the Americans 1st. My thinking at the time was to get to all of the open land to the SE of them for barb hunting. This did work and I did take the Aztec down to 2 tundra towns before the MA.
~I messed up the timing of my settler pump 2 times
~I had never done the "republic" thing as a free tech. I messed this up by not getting CoL 1st. I guess I should have read the pregame thread a little closer.

I believe that I went into the MA somewhere around 500-450 BC Not for sure though.

Overall a very fun game.

dmanakho

Sep 11, 2004, 02:08 PM

Still, if it's a competition, I agree that an early settler is pretty unbalancing.

Ok, it is a competition but it is not World Cup, it's not Olympic Games...
we suppose to have fun before we compete with each other, and when better players win others suppose to learn from them... Sir Pleb and other great players are more than willing to share they game style and knowledge, But taking randomness out of the game kills all the fun period.... :thumbdown
While I agree on the reasons for taking SGLs out of the game, I would be very dissapointed if, for example, we could not get a settler out of the hut or if there some other tweaks implemented to take out random events.

rrau

Sep 11, 2004, 02:46 PM

open

4000 bc settler NE, worker road

3950 settle Chichen itza, start wheel

3300 contact aztecs. Trade Masonry for WC + 10g

3200 contact America. they won't trade alphabet :(

2710 finished granary, start 1st settler

2390 settle copan

2310 settle palenque

2070 settle Tikal

1910 settle Yaxchilian

1725 learn wheel, but a couple turns ago saw an edge of purple, will send warrior there to see if it's India and maybe bring down price of writing

1700 contact iroquois- trade Masonry for bronze working and alphabet and 21g (much better than what lincoln was offering); trade America wheel plus 270g for IW and Ceremonial burial. Trade Aztecs ceremonial burial for 50g

1650 a settler was destroyed (was sending them out unescorted up to this point)

1600 aztecs dow and burned a town to the ground

1350 contact spain - no trades

1300 bc triggered GA

1250 lincoln demanded writing - no - no dow was forthcoming

975 were 2nd most powerful nation - aztecs are 5th

430 trade iroquois math, Phil,& 140g for MM

310bc peace with Aztecs for 3 of their cities

290bc revolt and draw 6 turn anarchy

ibt lincoln demands republic - no - still no dow but now I'm getting irritated at his bullying. Also hear of a massive barb uprising near calixtlahuaca (no one on our continent is in MA yet)

170bc Mayan Republic is born :)

30ad we're the happiest nation [party]

190ad learn lit - trade Lincoln lit for polytheism and 50g; trade iroquois lit for 163g; trade spain lit for 70g

we enter MA after learning lit from Lincoln

Now for the hard part - picking up the remainder of the game after a week of vacation (and not playing any civ :eek: )

Jason Fliegel

Sep 11, 2004, 04:54 PM

This is my turn log for the Ancient era in my Open class game (Part 1 of 2)

4000 BC -- Like so may of you, I send my worker to the wheat. I like the bonus grassland I find, but don't see anything that persuades me not to send my settler north, to the river. So that's what I do.

3950 BC -- I found Chichen Itza and start building a warrior. I start a road on the wheat. I begin researching Alphabet at 20%.

3900 BC -- I don't make any moves.

3850 BC -- I finish the road on the wheat and move northeast to the BG.

3800 BC -- I start building a road there.

3750 BC -- I don't make any moves.

3700 BC -- I finish my road and start on a mine. I finish my warrior and start a granary. I move my warrior east.

3650 BC -- I move my warrior southeast, into the hill.

3600 BC -- I move my warrior south and see the spices.

3550 BC -- I decide to send my warrior along the river, so he heads east.

3500 BC -- Again, the warior heads east. The worker, having finished the mine, moves northwest, onto the bonus grassland.

3450 BC -- My borders expand. I see some silks nearby, as well as jungle and what looks like marshland. My workers will have their jobs cut out for them. I continue working the BG, rather than the wheat -- I want my granary complete as soon as possible. I start mining the BG, and move my warrior onto the mountain. He has found the source of the mighty river the feeds Chichen Itza!

3400 BC -- My warrior moves north along the coast.

3350 BC -- My warrior moves onto the second mountain, giving me more info about our coast.

3300 BC -- And now he's on the northernmoast coastal mountain. It appears our coast curves west/northwest from here.

3250 BC -- I move the warrior onto the hill. I adjust my science slider down to 10% (not that it makes a difference in either my income or the turns until I discover Alphabet). Chichen Itza has grown to size 3. Again, I work a forrest rather than the wheat, so that Chichen Itza will grow after I build the granary instead of the turn before. My worker starts roading the mined BG.

3200 BC -- I kick myself for not downloading a pop-head graphical mod pack. I spent last turn staring at the city screen and the F! screen, yet somehow, did not notice that I had 2 content citizens and 1 unhappy. The luxury slider goes up to 20%, but I've lost a turn at this critical juncture of the game. To quote Charlie Brown, "Auuuggh!"

3150 BC -- My worker finishes his road on the BG and heads SE to the grassland, which he will irrigate so that we can irrigate the wheat.

3100 BC -- As on every other turn, I move my warrior. He is one square from the hill that is north/northeast of our city, right by the mouth of the second river. I think I will build a city there.

3050 BC -- Moving onto the hill reveals nothing exciting.

3000 BC -- We finish the granary and begin building a worker. I move production from the forest to the wheat. I sned my warrior toward the mountain at the source of the small river. I begin irrigating the grassland. Herodotus lists the 8 most advanced Civs and I don't make the cut.

2950 BC -- Standing on the mountain reveals a relatively fertile valley filled with grassland and bonus grassland. The gods -- or ainwood -- have truly blessed our people (I hope).

2900 BC -- Chicen Itza finishes its worker and starts on a barracks. The new worker finishes irrigating the grassland and the original worker starts irrigating the wheat. The warrior ehads north and sees a blue border.

2850 BC -- The warrior moves toward the new civ, while the second worker starts irrigating the wheat.

2800 BC -- The wheat is done, we're back to a size 3 city. I move both workers across the river to start improving the BG tiles on the northeast side of the river. My warrior moves onto the mountain, where he sees the blue people have a cow and some tobacco in their territory. But there are no blue cities or units visible from up here.

2750 BC -- I move onto the cow, and that sends honest Abe running to greet me. The jerk has Ceremonial Burial, Bronze Working, and Alphabet, but he won't sell any of them to me.

2710 BC -- I move out of America, continuing to the north, while my workers move onto the easternmost BG in Chichen Itza's territory.

2670 BC -- I lose another turn due to luxury slider incompetence.

2630 BC -- I move my warrior around some more.

2590 BC -- Ditto.

2550 BC -- I finish my barracks and start on a settler. This time, I manage my lux slider properly and don't miss a turn.

2510 BC -- I move my warrior east out of American territory. I see some gems, a volcano, and an unpopped goody hut.

2470 BC -- I screw up the lux slider again. The problem with a city that grows so fast is remembering you have to micromanage it constantly.

2430 BC -- The goody hut gives me 25 gold. Better than disturbing native warriors, I suppose, but I would have rather had a tech.

2390 BC -- I send my workers to build a road toward that hill I discovered, and send my warrior west, toward the other side of American territory.

2350 BC -- I build my first settler. He goes toward the hill, unescorted.

2310 BC -- He's getting closer. I see an escorted American settler nearby. I've got a grand total of one warrior, and he's miles from my cities, so if America wants to start trouble, I'm cooked.

2270 BC -- I'm on the hill, and the American warrior is right next to me. Yikes!

2230 BC -- I found Copan. The warrior moves one. Phew! I start building a warrior in Copan.

2190 BC -- I build another settler. He's heading toward the spices.

2150 BC -- I move my guys around.

2110 BC -- An Aztec warrior wanders into my territory. I trade him Masonry for everything he's got -- Bronze Working, Warrior Code, and 10 gold. America still won't sell me Alphabet or Ceremonial Burial, but he hasn't learned anything new in the interrim.

2070 BC -- I build a warrior in Copan and start on another. My first warrior heads back toward the capital. I found Palenque directly north of the spices, and start work on a spearman. Once I get things up and running, I'll have some luxuries and some MPs, and can turn my lux slider down.

2030 BC -- My warrior arrives in Chichen Itza, and I'm able to turn my lux slider all the way down to 10%. America has founded a city upstream from me -- it's going to grab one of the silks on first expansion. This doesn't make me happy, but there's not much I can do now. My settler heads northeast to fill in the coast by America.

1990 BC -- I turn my lux slider up to prepare for expansion in Chichen Itza, and am rewarded by being named the Happiest Civ on Earth. Hoory for me!

1950 BC -- Nothing much goes on.

1910 BC -- Ditto.

1870 BC -- Another Settler heads out, this time to the east.

1830 BC -- Guys move around.

1790 BC -- Palenque finishes its spearman and starts on a worker. I move my 2 existing workers onto the spices.

1750 BC -- I found Tikal dangerously close to Wahsington. I hope it doesn't culture flip -- Wahsington has ceremonial burial, though there's no sign they've built any temples yet. I finish a warrior in Copan and send him to Tikal, plus Tikal starts building a spearman. I also found Yaxchilan, on a hill nestled between two mountains.

1725 BC -- I build another settler and send him due west into the great unknown. My settler factory is working faster than my other cities can keep up!!!

1700 BC -- I finish Alphabet and start on writing. I meet Hiawatha, who has the wheel and Ceremonial Burial. America has all of those, plus Iron Working, and the Aztecs have Iron Working, but not Alphabet. I buy Ceremonial Burial and a worker from the Iroquois for 198 gold (I have 220). Then I sell Ceremonial Burial and Alphabet to the Aztecs for Iron Working plus 25 gold. Then I sell Iron Working back to the Irooquoius for 146 gold. By the end of the turn, I've bought 2 techs and a worker for 27 gold.

1675 BC -- Copan finishes its warrior and starts on a Temple. Time to start on some culture (plus an expansion will bring those silks within my borders!). My roving settler sees some iron and heads for it.

1650 BC -- There's an Aztec warrior standing where I want to be:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/JFliegel/COTM04-01.jpg
My options are 1) wait a turn, 2) found in place, or 3) go around him. I decide to move north, onto the hill.

1625 BC -- I build Bonampak on the hill next to the iron and start on a Temple. It's time for some cultural warfare against America!

1600 BC -- IBT, a barbarian attacks my warrior/settler combo. Thanks goodness I sent this settler out with an escort.

1575 BC -- I move some guys around.

1550 BC -- I build a curragh in Yaxchilian and send it south.

1525 BC -- Largertero is founded south of Chichen Itza. My warrior dies in glorious battle against a barb camp.

1500 BC -- I move guys around.

1475 BC -- More moving. After the turn, I meet Spain, who offers to sell me the wheel for 170 gold. I politiely decline.

1450 BC -- I do a check of my nieghbors. Everyone has the Wheel except America, who have both the Wheel and Mysticism. F8 reveals that we're all even culture-wise. Score-wise, I'm fourth by about 20 points, but moving up (thank you, settler factory!). Power-wise, I'm slightly behind the Americans and Irroquois, slightly ahead of the Aztecs, and way ahead of Spain.

1425 BC -- Before the turn, I take pleasure in watching an American warrior fall to the same barb camp I fell to. I send another settler out.

1400 BC -- I build a warrior in Lagreto and send him off to take another stab at that barb camp.

1375 BC -- Before the turn, I see the Aztecs fight someone, but I can't tell who. Is it another civ? Barbarians? Time will tell.

1350 BC -- I disperse that pain in the butt barb camp. I build a spearman in Chicen Itza, and switch to a settler (moving my worker off the white and onto a BG so that I'll build the settler in 3 turns instead of 4).

1325 BC -- Quirigua is founded up near American territory. I'm 1 turn away from Writing and nobody else has it, so I decide I'll go for the Republic slingshot.

1300 BC -- I finish 2 temples and learn that the Hittites have built the Colossus. My curragh finds more iron -- it's not in Aztec territory yet, but it soon will be.

1275 BC -- Another settler gets completed and sent out (to the south).

1250 BC -- I build some workers. I now have 5 workers plus a slave, with a sixth worker on the way in a turn.

1225 BC -- I do the usual moving/managing thing.

1200 BC -- I move my worker onto a silk -- luxury #2, here we come!

1175 BC -- Everyone has the Wheel, Mysticism, and Mathematics except me, so I decide to buy the Wheel and Mathematics from Spain in exchange for Writing (which everyone else has) and 167 gold. Philosophy is going to be more of a horse race than I had thought.

1150 BC -- Before the turn, I lose my curragh to barbarian galleys -- but not before the curragh has revealed Aztec fur to me. On the turn, I found Calkmul to the north and start building a warrior there.

1125 BC -- I move my guys around some more.

1100 BC -- I found Lazapa south of Lagareto. My empire is getting big!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/JFliegel/COTM04-02.jpg
With the silks hooked up, I can drop my lux slider all the way down to 0%!

1075 BC -- Another settler is built. He and his Spearman escort head northwest. We're going to try to fill in another city along Iroquois territory, cutting off their land route into our portion of the continent.

1050 BC -- I move guys around

1025 BC -- Ditto. Phildaelphia expands, "stealing" the unroaded silk. We're going to have to do something about that city.

1000 BC -- 3000 years have passed. I take stock. I have 11 cities (counting the just-founded Kaminaljuyu), 28 citizens (14 happy, 13 content, 1 unhappy), 60 gold in my treasury, and 7 workers plus a slave. I have a settler on its way to foudn a 12th city. I know all of the first tier techs, plus 3 second-tier techs (Mathematics, Iron Working, and Writing). I'll know Code of Laws in 2 turns. With 244 points, I have the Firaxis-score lead, at least compared to the 4 other civs I know. I hate to tempt fate, but things seem to be going well:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/JFliegel/COTM04-03.jpg

975 BC -- Another settler rolls out, and I start building another. At some point, it will be time to let Chichen Itza stop producing settlers -- but not yet.

950 BC -- I start on Philosophy. I run a 3 GPT deficit so I can get Philosophy in 6 turns instead of 7.

925 BC -- My deficit is down to 2 GPT thanks to expansion in Chichen Itza.

900 BC -- Calakmul builds a warrior and starts on a worker. After the turn, Lincoln builds an embassy in my capital.

875 BC -- The settler is finished and the deficit is back up to 3 GPT. Yaxchilian finishes its temple and starts on another curragh. According to the F3 guy, my military is weak compared to America.

850 BC -- I finish a few temples, increasing my deficit to 5 GPT. On the other hand, playing with the Sci slider moves my deficit down to 1 GPT without sacrificing the time to discover Philosophy. The lesson is simple: Never neglect your slider! Meanwhile, the Celts have finished the pyramids and everyone starts building the Oracle.

825 BC -- My settler arrives at the settlement site just as an Irroquois settler does. Will he settle IBT?

800 BC -- The good news is, the Irroquois are sending their settler south. The bad news is, I apparently lost the race to Philosophy. My Republic slingshot is a failure. I switch research from Republic to LIiterature. Still, it's not a total loss -- I sell Philosophy to the Irroquois in exchange for Horseback Riding, Mysticism, and 118 Gold. Then I sell Code of Laws to the Aztecs in exchange for Map Making and 203 gold. Then I sell Philosophy to America for 156 gold. Spain, with 5 cities, 0 gold, and no techs I don't have, gets left out of the wheeling and dealing.

Jason Fliegel

Sep 11, 2004, 04:54 PM

Here's part 2 of my Open class Ancient Era turn log.

775 BC -- I decide I've finished the expansion phase. Now it's time to start expanding at the expense of the other civs. Chichen Itza starts building a worker and will then switch to a Great Library prebuild; my other cities will start building barracks or swordsmen as necessary. I found Uxactun near the Irroqois border.

750 BC -- I found Cuello near Aztec territory.

730 BC -- Chichen Itza starts on a temple.

710 BC -- Yaxchilan launches a galley.

690-610 BC -- My workers engage in various tasks.

590 BC -- I finish a temple in Chichen Itza and begin working on the Great Library. Nobody I know has a tech I don't have, so I decide to keep my research level at 70% (the highest I can go without a deficit) as I go for Polytheism and then Monarchy.

570-410 BC -- I go back to building up my core, building swordsmen, and generally preparing to unleash my fury on an unsuspecting foe. In 410 BC, I have to raise my lux slider back to 10% as Chichen Itza hits population 10. Is it time to unleash my fury on the Americans and capture some gems? I only have half a dozen swordsmen ready to go, so not yet.

390-290 BC -- I build up some more. In 290, I decide the time is almost right to capture Philadelphia. America is building a road to that second silk, though, so I'm going to give him time to complete the road.

270-190 BC -- it takes a long time for America to build that road. I guess they were clearing forest first. Anyway, in 290, the road is complete, and I declare war. My goals are 1) capture Philadelphia, which is right in the middle of my territory, and 2) capture Washington, which will give me access to gems. We'll see how much of a defense America mounts; if it's weak, maybe I'll press on after that. On this turn, I capture two workers.

170 BC -- In between turns, Spain comes into the war as an ally of America. On this turn, I capture 2 worker, 1 settler, and enslave a spearman, triggering my Golden Age. But I suffer my first casualty -- it took 2 javelin throwers to kill that spearman!

150 BC -- This is a turn of getting my guys into position. I kill one American Spearman, but nothing else.

130 BC -- I kill 3 Spearmen and a warrior at the cost of 3 swordsmen and a javelin thrower. Not a good ratio, unfortunately. In between turns, I find off two archers, but lose a swordsman to the third archer. I also lose a galley to barbarians.

110 BC -- In Philadelphia, I kill 3 spearman at the cost of 2 swordsman. I capture the city, along with 2 settlers who were hiding inside. In Washington, things go a little worse -- I kill 2 spearmen at the cost of 3 swordsmen. Now that I have two silks, I trade one to the Aztecs for fur and 19 gold. I note that the Aztecs have Republic. In between turns, I fend off a single American Archer, and get an elite swordsman out of it.

90 BC -- I don't make any attacks this turn -- my Washington expedition falls back to await reinforcements. The good news is, I fend off 2 more American archers, gaining a second elite swordsman in the process.

70 BC -- I kill an Archer on my turn, and a second archer on America's turn.

50 BC -- I don't kill anyone on my turn, but on America's turn, they kill a swordsman and a javelin thrower. At least I took out one of their archers in the process.

30 BC -- I kill a Spanish spearman, grabbing a settler in the process. Spain hasn't really involved itself in this war. All they do is send settler/spearmen combos through my territory to whatever open land there is to my south. I would have thought the Aztecs would have filled it in by now, but aparently, there's something tempting down there. The Irroquois are doing the same thing, but I'm letting their settlers pass unmolested. I don't engage the Americans, and they don't engage me.

10 BC -- The second siege of Washington begins. I lose 3 swordsmen to take out a single Spearman. Nuts! Elsewhere, I kill an archer. I also complete the Great Library. Huzzah for me! After the turn, America kills 2 swordsmen (but loses an archer), and the Great Library teaches me Republic and Construction.

10 AD -- I kill a spearman in Miami (which is an isolated American town near the Mayan/Irroquois border) and a lone American warrior. I've also noticed Spain sending some swordsmen toward my border, so I sue for peace. They pay me 40 gold for the privilege. I kill a couple of American archers near Washington.

30 AD -- Before the turn, Washington completes the great wall. I promptly capture Washington. The question is: can I hold it? I decide to take some time to rebuild. I get a great peace treaty:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/JFliegel/COTM04-04.jpg
which gives me a nice solid core empire:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/JFliegel/COTM04-05.jpg
I sell Literature to the Spanish for 240 gold, which gives me all the gold on the continent. I'm 3 turns away from the Middle Ages. I switch my economy over to peacetime production (Aqueducts and Libraries, primarily), and give some thought to revolution. On the one hand, I'm in despotism -- never a good idea. On the other hand, I'm in my Golden Age. I have another 9 turns. Is as few as 2 or 3 turns in Republic Golden Age worth more than 9 turns in despotism Golden Age? It's something to ponder.

50 AD -- I've taken some time off since my last turn, but now I'm ready to rock. The plan is to slowly but surely conquer my continent. To that end, I move some forces around so I'm nicely positioned to war against the Irroquois, but still defended on all my borders. I go into revolution. I'll be there for 4 turns, then a switch to Monarchy. Meanwhile, my workers improve my infrastructure.

70 AD -- 2 turns down, 2 to go!

90 AD -- 1 more turn. Somewhere in the world, the [Tribe Name Withheld] are destroyed.

110 AD -- My workers toil, then at the end of the turn, I become a Monarchy!

130 AD -- Rebuilding, revamping my infrastructure, and gearing up for war with the Irroquois.

150 AD -- One more turn to the Middle Ages. I'm doing well, but I think my goal for the Middle Ages will be to conquer my continent. Wish me luck!

grahamiam

Sep 11, 2004, 07:43 PM

Open

Couldn't finish cotm3 due to family obligations in August so I played gotm34 last weekend, finishing it in one monster 12hr session. Score and play suffered so I'm taking my time with cotm4.

Opening play
Looking at the opening, i calculated that, from what was on the visible tiles, a 4T settler factory was possible so there's no need to further explore the starting position. decided to have the worker road the tile he was on and moved the settler NE to the river. founded Chichén Itza there, set research on alphabet, and beelined for the republic slingshot. settler factory was up and running by 2800BC.

QSC stats:
17 towns
9 workers
19 warriors
1 spear
1 curragh
1 Jav thrower (never found enough barbs)
1 granery
1 barracks

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/grahamiam-cotm4-1000BC.jpg

Became a republic in 925BC.

Tech research was slow as the AI have been fairly poor during this game. I traded for WC, BW, Wheel, CB, IW, Myst, and Poly. Caved to tech demands from the Aztecs and Americans (IW and writing) as I was too busy expanding early on to deal with a war.

Americans started sending spear/settler pairs down thru the empire at around 610BC so I picked a fight with them, finally capturing some slaves. Entered the MA in 390BC by researching construction, as well as having captured Philly, Boston, and Atlanta from the Americans. I'm going to keep after them till I take thier gems. Then I'll turn on the Aztecs to take the ToA. As far as other wonders, MoM was also built locally (Spain) but all others (Pyramids, GLight, SoZ, and Hanging Gardens) were built overseas. I built several curraghs but they kept getting chewed up by barbs. hopefully, i'll get some suicide galleys out and make contact soon.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/grahamiam-cotm4-390BC.JPG

killerloop

Sep 12, 2004, 06:29 AM

Predator

My QSC report out:

13 towns, 47 citizens, republican government
currency & construction away from MA
9 workers
7 warriors
2 swordsmen
1 horseman
5 javelin throwers
1 temple, 1 granary, 1 barracks
4 embassies
183 gold

Initial Moves:
Moved Settler NE and settled there, build 1 warrior, then a granary (3000BC) and then settlers every 4 turns till anarchy for republic.
Wasted the 1st worker move, as I didn't like the idea of irrigating the BG tile 1st and then mine. So worker started irrigating start tile, then moved to wheat to irrigate, than mine the 2 BG's and only than started roading. This made it possible to have the settler factory operational as of 3000BC.

1st Cities:
I only used CI for settler building. I build Copan on the Silk, Palenque on the coast N, Tikal near the spices. Intended Copan to have the Pyramids, however by establishing an embassy in Washington found out they will build the Pyramids 1st (~950BC) :(. So Temple of Artemis it'll be. Palenque is for Lighthouse, Tikal my Unit town.
It looks the other continent(s)? are doing well on culture, as the F11 button shows 5 unscovrd capitals as the top 5 cities of the world. As they all are sizs 6 it looks like they are not build next to fresh water. Ainwood's influence???

Science:
decided to go for CB 1st, switched to Mysticism, abandoned this after trading for Alphabet. Went full fletch for Philosphy than. Researched this in 1300 BC and changed to republic for a 5 tun revolt. Traded everything else.

Wonders:
Only one build: Collossus, on other continent.

Resources:
spices, silks (2x), horses & iron connected

Next steps:
America will fall: Gems are already mine, Pyramids in short turn :).
Aztecs are next.
Sail the seas, make friends
Libraries, Universities, science full fletch, going for diplomatic win, by keeping friends with tech advantage.

samildanach

Sep 12, 2004, 08:24 AM

Open

I didn't keep a log but at the end of the QSC I had 11 towns. I was still in despotism and was still researching writing with seven turns to go on it. :eek:
My pop. was 26. I had 5 barracks. One granary. One temple.
Here is a screeny of my military at 1000 BC -
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SamCOTM4a.jpg

At this point I had just upgraded 9 chariots to horsemen. HBR was my only second tier tech. I had been running the capital (with granary) as a 5 turn settler/chariot factory as opposed to a four turn settler/warrior combo which possibly contributed to the low number of towns I got compared to other players.

At 1000 BC the Aztecs are building the pyramids and I'm waiting to see if they get them. Unfortunately the got beaten to them by a turn so I didn't get any bonus prize when I attacked their capital in 875 BC.

After I researched writing. I researched philosophy at max and then traded that around which brought me close to tech parity with the other civs. The Americans subsequently built the MoM in Washington.

I entered the MA in 110 BC. Here is a screeny of my empire -
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SamCOTM4b.jpg

This is four turns after I took Washington with the MoM and the Great Library which gave me 1 or 2 required techs IIRC. The Aztecs are still alive at this point they managed to settle a town on the peninsula beyond the tundra. The Americans will be quite dead....quite soon. The F.P. is in Coba which is in former Aztec territory to the south of Tenochtitlan. I'm still in despotism and haven't had a GA.

Here is a screeny of my military at 110 BC. Losses have been quite high but not exceeding the replacement rate so my horse numbers have been increasing steadily if somewhat slowly.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SamCOTM4c.jpg

Firaxis score : 617 at 110 BC.

Kuningas

Sep 12, 2004, 12:14 PM

Open

Going for the cow. I try to maximize pop and land:

Population:
I place first 7 out of 8 cities into the river.
Pyramids completed in 925BC.
I irrigate tiles a lot of more than usually.
I fail to connect luxuries. I have Silks and Spices at 1000BC, but Gems and Furs are connected much later.

Territory:
Early war against Americans. They give us 3 cities in peace treaty and we capture one.

Standard:
settler factory, republic slingshot etc.

QSC:
missing AA techs: Construction, Map Making, Polytheism, Monarchy, Literature in two turns. 236 gold.
1 granary, 2 Barracks, Pyramids in 4 turns.
16 native workers, 1 barb worker
2 horses
2 JT
1 Curragh

18 cities
37 pop
score 314

1000BC screenie:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/cotm4_kuningas_qsc.jpg

650BC We advance into the Middle Ages.

26 workers
14 horses
1 settler

26 cities
score 445

horragoth

Sep 13, 2004, 12:52 AM

Open Class

I have started by moving worker to wheat in order to explore. It actually lost some WT, but I wanted to explore a little.
Knowing the capital can make ideal settler factory here my general building order was warrior, granary, settlers. First settler was not out sooner than 2750 BC, but since then every 4 turns. All my AA settlers were built in the capital.
I have aimed at peacefull expansion as permitted, thus my further cities produced mainly warriors for the number, MP and later upgrade.
In research after CB, I went for horsemen and then republic slingshot. Traded Iron Working path with neighbors.
1425 BC war with Aztecs was fought defensively (destroying their units as they come) not stopping settling new land, until they surendered a size 1 town.
I have built some curraghs/lighthouse/galleys ASAP and manage to make first contact outside continent in 10 BC as well as some minor landmasses.

Timeline

4000 BC Worker -> W Road
Settler -> NE

3950 BC Founded Chichen Itza, MM Lab. BG, Build Warrior
Tax 0.10.0, Research: Ceremonial Burial

3850 BC Worker NE Mine Road

3700 BC Chichen Itza Warrior, next Granary
Warrior Explore E,SE
MM Lab. F

3650 BC MM Lab. BG

3600 BC Chichen Itza grows to 2

3500 BC Worker SE Irrigate
Warrior: Green Border SE

3450 BC Chichen Itza, Influence 2, MM Lab. BG,F

3400 BC Contact Aztecs, Got Warr. Code + 10 GP for Masonry

3300 BC Worker W Irrigate

3100 BC Chichen Itza grows to 3, MM Lab. 2xBG,Wheat
Tax 0.8.2
Worker N, Mine, Road

3050 BC Chichen Itza Granary, next Settler

3000 BC Tax 3.5.2

2950 BC Researched CB, next Wheel
Tax 0.8.2

2900 BC Tax 0.6.4
Chichen Itza grows to 4, MM Lab. 3xBG,Wheat

2900 BC Tax 0.4.6
Chichen Itza grows to 5, MM Lab. 4xBG,Wheat

2750 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler
Set Lux. as necessary
Worker 2xSE, road, S, mine, road

2590 BC Founded Copan. Build Warrior

2550 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler

2510 BC Copan MM Lab. BG

2430 BC Copan. Warrior (go to Chichen Itza), next Warrior
Founded Pelanque. Build Warrior

2390 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler

2350 BC Copan MM Lab. F+

2270 BC Copan. Warrior (fortify), next Worker

2230 BC Palenque. Warrior (fortify), next Worker
Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler
Founded Pelanque. Build Warrior

2150 BC Tax (1.x.x) Adjusted to make citizens content

2110 BC Contact Americans (Atlanta founded)

2070 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler
Copan Worker (SW road), next Barracks
Founded Yaxchilan, Build Warrior

2030 BC Palenque Worker (N Road, Mine), next Barracks
Tikal Warrior (fortify), next Worker
Copan MM Lab. BG

1990 BC Researched Wheel, Next Horseback Riding
Copan MM Lab. F+

1950 BC Founded Bonampak, Build Warrior
Worker(1) road to BG SSW from Bonampak, Mine

1910 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler
Tikal MM Lab. 2xBG
Aztecs, Got Bronze Working + 25 GP for Ceremonial Burial

1870 BC Tikal Worker (SW, Chop, road), next Barracks
Yaxchilan Warrior (fortify), next Worker
Worker(2) road Horses

1790 BC Contacted Iroquis(Scout) Got Alphabet + 35 GP for Ceremonial Burial + Warrior Code
Aztecs: Got Iron Working for Alphabet

1750 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler
Worker(2) NW, Mine, road
Worker(3) E, Chop, road

1725 BC Founded Legatero, Build Temple

1700 BC Yaxchilan Worker (SE, mine, road), next Worker

1650 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler
Copan Barracks, Next Spearman

1625 BC Researched Horseback Riding, Next Writing
Bonampak Worker (NW mine, road, NW, road), next Curragh

1600 BC Founded Quirigua, Build Warrior

1575 BC Yaxchilan Worker , next Temple

1550 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler

1525 BC Copan Spearman, Next Spearman
Palenque Barracks, Next Spearman

1500 BC Tikal Barracks, Next Spearman
Found Calakmul, Build Worker

1475 BC Founded Lazapa, Build Curragh

1450 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler

1425 BC Aztecs declared War
Bonampak Curragh, next Granary
Contact Spain
Americans: Got Mysticism + 97 for Horseback Riding
Spanish : Got 47 for Horseback Riding

1400 BC Copan Spearman, next Horseman

1375 BC Palenque Spearman, next Spearman
Tikal Spearman, next Spearman

1350 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler
Quirigua Warrior, next Worker

1325 BC Researched Writing, next Code of Laws
Lazapa - prod. changed to Barracks

1300 BC Copan Horseman, next Horseman
Calamkul Worker, next Worker
Hittites built Colossus

1275 BC Tikal Spearman, next Spearman
Founded Kaminaljuyú, build Temple

1250 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler
Palenque Spearman, next Spearman
Embassy Americans, Spanish, Iroquis

1225 BC Peace Aztecs - got 45 GP + Calixtlahuaca (Build Curragh)
Aztecs: Got 60 for Horseback Riding

1200 BC Found Piedras Negras, build Temple
Spanish: Got MAthematics for Writing + 40

1175 BC Copan Horseman, next Spearman
Tikal Spearman, next Horseman
Yaxchilan Temple , next Granary

1150 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler
Palenque Spearman, next Spearman

1100 BC Copan Spearman, next Spearman
Palenque Spearman, next Swordsman
Quirigua Worker, next Temple
Calamkul Worker, next Worker
Lazapa Barracks, next Swordsman
Founded Uaxactún, build Temple

1075 BC Researched Code of Laws, next Philosophy

1050 BC Chichen Itza Settler, next Settler
Tikal Horseman, next Spearman
Americans: Got Polytheism + 9 for Code of Laws
Spanish: Got 91 for Code of Laws
Aztecs: Got 50 for Mysticism
Hurried Temple in Legartero

1025 BC Copan Spearman, next Spearman
Legartero Temple, next Granary
Founded Cuello, build Temple

1000 BC Founded Tulum, build Granary

Lord Jimbob

Sep 13, 2004, 12:53 AM

[c3c]1.22 open

I am also going for a histographic victory- it'll be my first attempt, so I don't think I'll be able to match Kuningas. I'd love to crack 10,000 (Jason score), but I'd be happy with a personal GOTM highscore...

I pursued warmongering and tried to delay the onset of the MA (and pikemen) for as long as I could, thus, I didn't leave the AA until 10AD.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/COTM04_AAmap.gif

I managed a Republic 'slingshot' in 1250BC after researching alphabet, writing, CoL, and philosophy at max science.

I didn't have any luck finding another continent in spite of many suicide galley sorties, and I didn't get an MGL until close to the very end of conquering the home continent... but I did capture the Pyramids in Washington early on and get all 4 continental lux's hooked up early in the MA.
Otherwise, I'm enjoying the mini builder phase until we learn navigation and start expanding into new territory.

eldar

Sep 13, 2004, 01:16 AM

Oh, that was the other thing. The AIs in all the other games appear to be very nicely building the Pyramids for you guys. All I got from Washington were The Oracle (after Education....) and The Great Wall (before Metallurgy, at least). I felt as if there should've been a T-Shirt or something. Still, my MGL RNG was working well, as ye shall see in my future spoiler posts.

Neil. :cool:

Jason Fliegel

Sep 13, 2004, 08:42 AM

I know what you mean, eldar. All I captured was the Great Wall and the Mausoleum. All the good wonders were either built by me (in the Ancient Era, that's the Great Library, but I also snagged a few Middle Age wonders), or were built off my continent.

Florian K

Sep 13, 2004, 10:43 AM

Welcome to Cifvanatics.com!!! :band:

and to answer your question - It is very important to build cities near the rivers... If city has an access to the fresh water you don' tneed an aqueduct and it can grow to size 12, if city is not next to the fresh water you will have to build an aqueduct in order for city to grow above size 6....
That alone makes a huge difference...
Plus since Mayan's are agricultural if capital is built next to river it gives instant 3 foods even in despotism instead of 2 food when city is built away from river... This is also very important at the early stages of the game.
THose were the main reasons why almost everyone moved a setter to the river

Thanks! Makes perfect sense now.

Capt Buttkick

Sep 14, 2004, 03:26 AM

Eldar and Jason: the AI on my continent didn't manage one single AA wonder...

killerloop

Sep 14, 2004, 05:06 AM

2 questions to Sir Pleb,

I also value early civ growth as a main factor for rapid success, if warmongering is not your predominant style.
Hence, I agree with your statement that around QSC dates, the amount of native citizens (not conquered), settlers and native workers is a good measure of early expansion (Be aware, early golden age can have a little effect here).
Your QSC result: 52 pop (assuming conquered Atlanta had 2 pop), 1 settler, 11 native workers accounts for 65 pop reached by 1000BC, quite impressive with only wheat as bonus food.

Finally the first question: You popped an early settler (3200BC) in this game, settling him/her at 2850BC (turn 23). If you would assume an avg of 6 turns to grow the city it founded, one could get a worker in the same 6 turns, or a settler in 12. As QSC is turn 81, my math estimate your early settler being worth (81-23)/6 ~ 9 workers. Include the settler pop of 2, I estimate your early settler is worth around 10 pop and 1-2 buildings. Do you agree?

BTW, this makes me feel not to bad :), as I had a QSC out pop of 56, and reached MA in 750BC as well.

Second question:
In the middle of your QSC period you had CI build 3 workers in a row. What’s the rationale behind it? Why don’t you let the settler pump do what it’s good at, producing settlers, and have other cities build the workers. I agree that CI can produce a worker every 2 turns, and a river city needs 4 turns, but is this worth it?

smackster

Sep 14, 2004, 05:19 AM

As its Monarch level going for Predator hoping the AI will help me along. Victory goal conquest.

Worker to wheat, settler north. Build 2 warriors, then granary, then first settler in 2590BC

Found that mining enough BGs meant that I didn't need to MM for the 4 turn settler factory.

Worked hard to get the Philosophy->Republic jump in 1150BC often using scientists to squeeze out extra turns of research. Missed it by one turn in Cotm3 so didn't want to do that again.

Gifted AI to Republic in 1125BC wanted them to be able to trade as soon as possible. Found that by 1000BC, they were all in Republic.

1000BC 14 cities, pop 34, techs all level 2, Philosophy, CoL, MM, Republic, Construction in 10, 6 workers, 16 warriors, 2 JT, one bought American slave, score 311. Worker roading iron, done in 4. Gold 480 (-6).

With the Republic slingshot speed of expansion becomes more important, in fact speed of city settling is what is needed. At this stage my 14 cities only supported 14 units, so the additional 10 units costs 20GPT. Clearly this is an advocation for expanding quicker, and building more settlers out of the core. The loss in commerce by reducing the pop of those core cities is overweighed by the reduction in unit support costs, not withstanding the fact that those settlers will give you more cities that will also grow.

So next time I do a Republic slingshot, I'll build more cities.

It took until 750BC before I felt I had enough Swords upgraded, when I declared on America. Boston is taken right away, Washington soon after.
In 670BC a JT wins a defensive battle and we enter our GA. This wasn't really the plan but I think it works out ok as I can build my FP double quick and had just started that. Horses are roaded and we start to build Chariots.

America is reduced to two cites but Washington flips after peace, don't want to break rep yet.

550BC MA are entered

Having played a few games with the Mayans now, I put no value on the JT. If you want slave workers, it is much quicker to use swords, or horses to take them from the enemy. I found that whenever I got a barb camp, I could not get the JT's there quick enough.

SirPleb

Sep 14, 2004, 06:42 PM

You popped an early settler (3200BC) in this game, settling him/her at 2850BC (turn 23). If you would assume an avg of 6 turns to grow the city it founded, one could get a worker in the same 6 turns, or a settler in 12. As QSC is turn 81, my math estimate your early settler being worth (81-23)/6 ~ 9 workers. Include the settler pop of 2, I estimate your early settler is worth around 10 pop and 1-2 buildings. Do you agree?
Yes I do, that seems about the right number. As you say, "around 10". There are a few ways to look at it so I don't think a precise number is possible. A few ways the bonus settler's city might be played:

1) Just let it grow, no granary, no settlers produced. It grows every 7 turns. (You used a divisor of 6, I'm guessing as an average, allowing for a granary built a while after the city was founded.) (80-23)/7 = 8, +1 for the city tile = 9. (BTW, I think QSC end is turn number 80 not 81.)

2) Start by building a granary. The granary would probably finish just before size 4. So that would be 21 turns growing at 7 turns/citizen, then the rest of the QSC period at 4 turns/citizen. The total that way would be 13 pop.

3) The city builds settlers as fast as it can, and each of them founds a city which does the same. I.e. the "settler flood" approach. Not practical on this map for very long but as a theoretical comparison, supposing that each settler takes 3 turns to reach a new river location before beginning its own flood, I estimate 8 cities at turn 80 and a total population of 16.

An amusing thing about my goody hut settler BTW: He reached the place I wanted him to settle three turns before he actually settled. He frittered away those three turns waiting for an American warrior to move away. I didn't want to risk founding an undefended city directly beside a military unit, it might have provided too great a temptation for America to go to war.

Second question:
In the middle of your QSC period you had CI build 3 workers in a row. What’s the rationale behind it? Why don’t you let the settler pump do what it’s good at, producing settlers, and have other cities build the workers. I agree that CI can produce a worker every 2 turns, and a river city needs 4 turns, but is this worth it?
That was right after CI built its granary and first settler. One turn after finishing the first settler here's how Chichen Itza looked:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sirplebc04-1xa.jpg

At this point I could have CI finish a settler in four turns, at the point of growing from size six. And it would then run as a 5.0 to 7.0 settler factory. To do this it would have to use the mined BG the worker is on for part of that cycle, taking the use of that tile away from Copan.

To me it seemed better to get some workers out improving the situation. I had another city about to be founded by the already produced settler. My one worker was going to be a bottleneck trying to keep up with three towns, one of which had a granary. I decided to produce workers on a 4.5 to 5.5 cycle, mine some of the immediate area, and restart settler production as soon as Chichen Itza became able to produce them on the 4.5 to 6.5 cycle.

After producing three workers Chichen Itza looked like this and I figured it was finally time to go into settler pump mode:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sirplebc04-1xb.jpg

A couple of related thoughts: Early workers can be quite valuable because they are useful for more turns, a kind of leveraging. And overall I favour producing workers from cities with granaries and a food bonus, the population loss is replaced more quickly.

LuuCkyJaa

Sep 14, 2004, 08:32 PM

Earlier today, I posted on the Second Spoiler thread about how similar my map of the other continent looked to SirPleb's entering the IA. The post was about how differently the other continent turned out in different people's games. I also commented on how different our home continent's maps looked.

This is my first GOTM/COTM and I really hadn't kept QSC stats. I only remembered to make the suggested 1000BC save in 975BC. Since then, I have started to use CivAssist (which is great, thanks again ainwood!). So I decided to compare my 975 BC stats/map to SirPleb's QSC stats/map when I got home tonight to see where I could improve in future games. I was mainly looking to compare city placement (one of my weaknesses).

However, it was the size of SirPleb's cities and his QSC stats that really floored me. I don't expect to medal in this game, unless it's for lowest scoring Domination victory (BTW, there is a cash prize for that, isn't there?). But I was feeling good having gotten to this point not entering a war I was unprepared for and having 12 productive cities. Those cities had a total population of only 26 (compared to SirPleb's 54) and I had 7 workers (compared to 11). I know that I had no horsemen and don't think I had built a javelin thrower by this point either. My miltary units were mainly spearmen (being overly defensive-minded is another weakness).

The killer was seeing a size 7 city where there was no river! I didn't get Construction/Acqueducts until 590BC.

All-in-all, I'm still satisfied with my gameplay thus far. I did have the most cities and top Firaxis score on the continent by this point, a lead I have yet to relinquesh. Previously, I'd only won one game against the AI at monarch level and had never played on a large map. I'm having fun with this game and learning a lot. Who could ask for more?

Hats off again to SirPleb's awesome gameplay and for sharing his "secrets" with us!

killerloop

Sep 15, 2004, 04:53 AM

[c3c] predator

Sir Pleb,

tx for your explanation. :thanx:

new reflections: :crazyeye:
as I had my granary up and running at 2900 (w/o chopping the forest), I directly was in a 4-6 settler pump. I didn't want the 4.5-6.5 for happiness reasons.

Using your logic on the strength of a settler, worth around 10-13 pop if produced lets say before ~2000BC, we need to compare this with 2 workers, who will mine and road hills/grass, which on avg takes 7-9 turns (1 move, 2 road, 4-6 mining). I need to dig some deeper in the math, but for 50 turns having 2 workers, or having a settler is something that doesn't look easy to compare.

On this map, with the fertile land, rivers and agricultural trait, my 1st intuition goes in the direction of settler, because of its ability to re-create :blush:
Advantages of early workers that come to mind:
-New settlers can settle earlier, because of the roads workers make.
-Some extra shields/beakers for building/science/happiness, however a settler has this too.
-Linking up resources earlier, military netwwork (depends on goal)
-You need workers! Building them in 2 turns, and replacing pop in 2 turns is worth something, a settler 1st needs to build granary and have 5 food in spare to accomplish the same. But you could build the workers later in the game.., when would be the best time then???

I guess I can need some input here from the forum, any thoughts around on this topic?
Question: :confused:
What's worth more for civ building, 2 workers @ 2710BC or 1 settler @ 2710BC. Input could be general, or specific to COTM04.

tx, Killerloop

grs

Sep 15, 2004, 05:36 AM

@killerloop: In my games I always try to get a second town before I build any additional workers. I can only see very rare circumstances to prefer the 2 workers this early - a xcc for example and a 1cc especially :lol:

I would also prefer to get the first settler out before I set up the settler factory, but here the map and civ make a big difference. If I can get the settler factory very fast (i.e. double cow; beiing agri and maybe even ind.) I would prefer granary before settler, but otherwise I just like to secure more area.

RFHolloway

Sep 15, 2004, 08:44 AM

Almost every time I build a settler in the early game he is a fairly short-term investment which I expect will soon be converted to new citizens and/or workers. The settler costs me two citizens wherever I produce him. Suppose he settles after moving for four turns. He then forms a town with one citizen. At a location with no food bonuses, ten turns later he's a town with two citizens. So far I've lost four turns of 2 citizens' work and ten turns of 1 citizen. Now I'm breaking even. In another ten turns I start gaining - I have 3 citizens in the new town. In a total of 28 turns after producing the settler I have finally broken even, I've had the same number of "citizen turns" of work done as I would have if I had not built the settler. And from then on I'm gaining.

You are gaining even faster than that, don't forget the city square itself! Also you don't have to pay food support for that 'hidden' citizen. That means you lose the production of 2 citizens for 4 turns, but once you settle you are already up 2 surplus food, (or even 3 in this case), provided the city square and the newly worked square is at least as good as the original squares.

DJMGator13

Sep 15, 2004, 10:03 AM

Opening move
I started by moving my settler NE and founded my capital on the second turn. I built 1 warrior and then timed my growth to coincide with my first settler in 3250BC. I then built a granary, which completed as Chichen Itza grew to size 4 in 2510BC. From this point on my capital was a 4-turn settler factory. All my settlers came from this factory.

Neighbors & techs
I met my first neighbor, the Americans, in 2850BC. This followed with the discovery of the Aztecs in 2670BC. It took me a while to find the other 2 native tribes. I found the Iroquois in 1600BC and Spain in 1325BC. I cannot remember a game where I researched as many AA techs as I did in this game. I researched 8 techs on my own by 450BC. I usually do more trading for techs.

Stupid Aztecs
In 975BC the Aztecs had gone on a military buildup and surpassed me in strength. So when they became “strong” compared to me the demanded Mysticism. I refused and they declared war on me the turn before I became a republic. What resulted was my horsemen rolling over them and capturing their 4 largest cities, I then sued for peace gaining Map Making, 3 additional cities and 70 gold. I have left the AZT with 5 cities all size 1 or 2 and the task of claiming all that southern tundra for me to capture at my pleasure.

I have also intentionally not triggered my Golden Age yet, but plan to do it when I attack America very soon, need to shift my troops from Aztec land first.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
QSC SUMMARY 1000BC
2 turns of anarchy left in revolt to Republic
12 cities
139 tiles claimed
POP 36 in city size

Cities
Chichen Itza 3950BC
Copan 3050BC
Palenque 2190BC
Tikal 1990BC
Yaxchilan 1675BC
Bonampak 1675BC
Lagartero 1625BC
Quirigua 1525BC
Calakmul 1225BC
Lazapa 1225BC
Kaminaljuyu 1125BC
Piedras Negras 1025BC

City Improvements
1 Granary
3 Barracks

Military - 17 units
5 workers
3 warriors
6 horsemen
2 Javelin Throwers
1 curragh
plus 3 slave workers
Lost 3 warriors & a curragh to barbs

Techs
MAS - 4000BC
POT - 4000BC
WC - 2670BC trade
BW - 2670BC trade
WHEEL - 2510BC researched
CB - 2070BC trade
HBR - 1830BC researched
ALPHA - 1830BC trade
IW - 1725BC trade
WRIT - 1500BC researched
COL - 1200BC reserched
MYST - 1150BC trade
PHIL - 1075BC researched
REP - 1075BC from PHIL
MATH - 1075BC trade
POLY - working on

View of world at end of QSC
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DJM_C04_01.jpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------

END OF AA STATS 450BC
19 cities
209 tiles claimed
Pop 70 in city size
Military - 35 units consisting of 6 workers, 3 warriors, 2 spears, 1 sword, 21 horses & 2 Javelins - plus 4 slave workers

View of newly captured cities
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DJM_C04_02.jpg

Mistfit

Sep 15, 2004, 10:24 AM

@ Gator: Just for curiosity sake were the 3 slaves at 1000BC and 1 extra one at 450BC from Javilins or from other fighting?

Edit: Never mind I read the repost again and answered my own question.

Good looking start Gator!

Dianthus

Sep 15, 2004, 04:16 PM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif

QSC (4000BC to 1000BC)
I started by moving the Settler NE and proceeded to set up the 4 turn Settler factory ASAP. My build order was Warrior, Warrior, Granary, Worker, Settler. From then on I was producing 4 turn settlers, with the odd worker thrown in when I thought it was needed. I managed to grab the Horses/Iron/Silks, so was finding it easy to stay happy and was able to build up my Horse-based military. I'm intending to go for Conquest/Domination (preferably Conquest), so Horses were important. I researched The Wheel first so I could find them ensure and they were in my territory. I still successfully complete a Philosophy->The Republic slingshot in 1325BC. The following are my QSC QSC Stats:

11 towns
37 population
13 Workers
2 Slaves
4 Warriors
3 Javelin Throwers
8 Chariots
7 Contacts
Masonry
Pottery
The Wheel
Bronze Working
Alphabet
Warrior Code
Ceremonial Burial
Writing
Code of Laws
Philosophy
The Republic
Iron Working
Mysticism
Literature
Mathematics

QSC Score : 7764

Here's a minimap at 1000BC:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DianthusCGOTM04_bc1000Minimap.gif

Remainder of Ancient Age (1000BC-350BC)
It took me quite a while longer to complete the Ancient Age, considering I only had 5 more techs to research. That's because I only researched Polytheism and Currency, letting the AIs research the rest. Instead I built a bunch of Chariots and saved some gold to upgrade them. In 630BC I had 7 Horsemen, 4 Chariots, 3 Warriors and 3 Javelin Throwers. I was weak compared to the Aztecs, and they declared war. I was going to ally America/Iroquois/Spain against them, but they didn't have contact with the Aztecs yet! I didn't press them all that much. I was happy to have a drawn out war in which I avoided losing units and spending time in their territory, so enjoying the war happiness and not accumulating war weariness. I triggered my golden age and started building more military, reaching 33 Horses in 350BC, with 2209g ready for upgrading them to Knights.

Here's a minimap at 350BC.:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DianthusCGOTM04_bc0350Minimap.gif

Here's a log of my tech pace:

4000BC Masonry (Starting Tech)
4000BC Pottery (Starting Tech)
2390BC The Wheel (Researched)
2390BC Bronze Working (Traded)
2390BC Alphabet (Traded)
2390BC Warrior Code (Traded)
2390BC Ceremonial Burial (Traded)
1725BC Writing (Researched)
1450BC Code of Laws (Researched)
1325BC Philosophy (Reseached)
1325BC The Republic (Free with Philosophy)
1325BC Iron Working (Traded)
1325BC Mysticism (Traded)
1050BC Literature (Researched)
1025BC Mathematics (Traded)
925BC Polytheism (Researched)
825BC Map Making (Traded)
800BC Horseback Riding (Traded)
690BC Currency (Researched)
350BC Construction (Traded)

Graphs!!
Here's one of my slaves/settlers:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DianthusCGOTM04_BC0350Graph1.gif

And one of my military:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DianthusCGOTM04_BC0350Graph2.gif

Firecrack

Sep 16, 2004, 11:23 AM

Nice units graphs Dianthus, I like them. Did you make them with something like excel or do you use a special software that monitor your savegames and generate the graphs ?

Dianthus

Sep 16, 2004, 12:20 PM

Nice units graphs Dianthus, I like them. Did you make them with something like excel or do you use a special software that monitor your savegames and generate the graphs ?
Yes and Yes :).

I use my CRpMapStat program (see the link in my sig) to copy the autosaves as I play, then my CRpStats program to extract the data from the autosaves, then Excel to make the graphs from the tabulated data.

Firecrack

Sep 16, 2004, 12:38 PM

Yes and Yes :).

I use my CRpMapStat program (see the link in my sig) to copy the autosaves as I play, then my CRpStats program to extract the data from the autosaves, then Excel to make the graphs from the tabulated data.

I am already using CRPMapStat (which is very useful BTW :) ) but i though that the other CRP tools worked only with .crp files. I will try CRPStats now that I know it can handle autosaves.

It is still unclear for me where the .crp files comes from and what they contain. I saw on your web site crp file for GOTM. Do they contain the game sequence for every player who summitted ? If so, can we use CRPViewer to view the moves of the "star players" ?

Dianthus

Sep 16, 2004, 12:58 PM

I am already using CRPMapStat (which is very useful BTW :) ) but i though that the other CRP tools worked only with .crp files. I will try CRPStats now that I know it can handle autosaves.

It is still unclear for me where the .crp files comes from and what they contain. I saw on your web site crp file for GOTM. Do they contain the game sequence for every player who summitted ? If so, can we use CRPViewer to view the moves of the "star players" ?
We're getting a bit off topic here really, but I'll answer anyway. If you've got any other questions that are more about CRpSuite than CGOTM04 then maybe you could pop along to my >> CRpSuite thread<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52902)?

CRpViewer can open either a single .sav file to view one player's replay (very similar to the replay you get from within Civ when you complete the game), or can open a .crp file containing the replay information from multiple games. If you open a .crp file you can choose two players and step through to compare them side by side. I've got 2 .crp files on my site for each GOTM game, one containing the games from the top 25, one containing all games. If you've submitted then your game will be in one of those files (or both if you've made it to the top 25 ;)).

Hannabir

Sep 16, 2004, 07:17 PM

Pooh! I finally qualify to access this thread. :)

It took me quite a while to figure out the fastest way to set up my settler factory. After building the granary in 3000 BC, the first settler was produced in 2750 BC and from then on a 3½-4-4½-5 factory was in play. Later, after connecting the two luxuries, I added a slave to improve my income, and another was added so I had one settler finished in 3 turns right before we revolted.

This was how I managed:

Step 1: a second Worker asap
4000bc Settler ne, Worker nw on bonus grassland
3950bc Chichén Itza on the river, with wheat and all the hills in range (the only square to consider, really), Worker starts mining
3750bc Warrior produced, Worker is roading
3650bc Worker moves se to irrigate a grassland tile
3600bc Worker2 produced, moves to road the wheat

Step 2: irrigating the wheat
3450bc Chichén Itza expands, but does not yet need the wheat;
Worker1 has finished irrigating and moves se to cut one forest, there is no time for a road; Worker2 can now irrigate the wheat
3350bc as Worker2 is about to finish irrigating, Chichén Itza begins working the wheat so it will grow to size 2 at end of turn

Step 3: the granary
3300bc Worker2 moves n to road and then mine a second bonus grassland
3250bc Worker1 again skips roading and goes se to cut the second forest
3100bc Chichén Itza is now size 3
3000bc the Granary is completed

At this point the capital looks like this:

http://www.castlegobs.nl/civ3/cotm04_3000bc.jpg 3000bc

In quick succession the Maya now founded 10 new cities, almost all of them on the rivers.

Meanwhile, we were making fast progress techwise, although we started with no research at all until Alphabet became available for trade.

Techs during despotism
4000bc Masonry, Pottery (starting techs)
3650bc Warrior Code (Aztecs), met them early :)
3050bc Ceremonial Burial (America), Bronze Working (Aztecs)
2800bc Alphabet (Spain), finally!
1950bc Writing (Maya), Mysticism (America), Iron Working (Spain)
1600bc Code of Laws (Maya), The Wheel (America)
1475bc Philosophy (Maya), The Republic (Maya)

We revolt and get a lucky draw: only 3 turns of anarchy!
Our Javelin Throwers barely reach the border with America in time.

War with America
1400bc The Maya are a Republic. Now, the Americans had very few defenders and a fair number of small cities. One of our Javelin Throwers kills an unfortified Spearman (must have rushed in from Washington) and triggers our Golden Age, while capturing Boston.
1325bc Washington is taken without any problem. There are too few American defenders to give our Javelin Throwers even a single slave!
1300bc But we have few attackers left, too, and when they offer 3 cities for peace we accept. No elite was produced in this short war, let alone a leader.

Meanwhile, we use the Golden Age to build wonders and libraries. Workers join our capital after mining the hills and at size 12, it makes an awesome 38 shields per turn. Also due to the GA, research is pretty fast, too.

Ancient techs and wonders in Republic
1325bc Literature (Maya), The Colossus (Palenque)
1225bc Polytheism (Maya), Map Making (Spain), Mausoleum of Mausollos (Chichén Itza)
1100bc Monarchy (Maya)
1050bc Mathematics (Spain), Construction (hut), Horseback Riding (Aztecs)
1000bc Forbidden Palace (Palenque)
950bc Currency (Maya), Pyramids (Chichén Itza)

In 1050bc we had units standing ready at the remaining huts for this exact (and final) opportunity, and were rewarded. :)

QSC stats
firaxis score 389
20 cities
62 citizens
218 tiles
2 turns away from all ancient techs
3 luxuries (spices, silks, gems)
Colossus, Mausoleum of Mausollus, Forbidden Palace (Pyramids in 2)
1 granary, 1 temple, 4 libraries
1 settler, 19 workers, 4 warriors, 1 chariot, 2 galleys, 2 javelin throwers, 1 curragh, 2 slaves

http://www.castlegobs.nl/civ3/cotm04_1000bc.jpg 1000bc