Survey [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

BOTP

Sep 09, 2004, 04:13 PM

I'd be very interested to have users opinions on:
1) The Greatest General
2) The Greatest Army
3) The Greatest Campaign
4) The Greatest Battle (tactics-wise)
5) The Greatest Battle (purely for heroics)
6) Greatest Rivalry
7) Biggest Upset
8) Most glorious victory
9) The Worst Error
10) Your favorite area of military history

Here's my ideas

1) Hannibal: Napoleon is a sentimental favorite of mine. I had difficulty choosing between the two, but my final choice was be Hannibal. Traversing his army across the Alps, and invading Italy. His campaign there lasted 17 years, nearly half a generation, operating hundreds of miles from his base of supply, in the heartland of hostile enemy territory, leading a force of various races, ethnicities, religions and languages, backed with the greatest tactics to world has seen, he nearly beat the greatest military power of the Ancient World. AMAZING!!! This truly proves his leadership as a magnificent general. How did he do this!

2) The Roman Legions: The Roman Legion, the ultimate military machine of the ancient world, was the catalyst that spread Roman conquest and civilization throughout the known world.

3) Sherman's March to the Sea: war was essentially over by Gettysburg, put exclamation point on victory by cutting a swath of destruction through the heartland of the South.

4)Cannae – Though Austerlitz is a close second, I’m sure many would consider this the greatest single tactical masterstroke in the history. Everyone has dreamed of since. It is consider the “Holy Grail” by military commanders. Many have tried it, while only a few have succeeded. It is still studied in institutions today. The battle is a cliché, and for a good reason.

5) The Alamo: 300 Texans withheld a entire Mexican force for 13 days. Their Heroic defense served as a beacon for Texas Independence, thus Remember the Alamo became a famous war-cry for many Texan leaders. Thermolpoley comes a close second. Both are characterized by incredible valor in almost certain death

6) China vs. Japan: 1,220 years. Not even Greece and Persia can match that. Italy and Germany has gone down, and risen up a lot, but China and Japan has stayed consistent since 780 B.C., and there’s still some opposition till this day!

7) The battle of Bull Run: The first time that the Union and Confederate infantry clashed. The D.C. politicians and spectators rode out thirty miles to see the splendid victory of the Union against the rabble of the South, expecting them to scatter and flee. To their surprise, they fled. There was a trail of lunch baskets and bonnets all the way to Washington. At least one Congressman was captured hiding behind a tree. LOL

8) Yorktown: LOL, what can I see, I’m patriotic. 8 years of hard-fought freedom, and what do you have? REJOICE!!!

9)Hitler's Invasion of Russia: This proved to be Hitler’s greatest error. Engaging in a unsuccessful second front an undefeated Britain and a mobilized America at his rear.

10) Everything: Call me a 'Generalist' (Means I know a lot of nothings. IMHO). I enjoy the Hannibalic War very much though, it was the closest that the Ancient War ever came to a World War, nearly encompassing the entire of Europe and North Africa.

privatehudson

Sep 09, 2004, 05:32 PM

1) Wellington. Unbeaten in any battle he lead the army in against a wide variety of foes, and repeatedly outfought what is popularly considered to be the finest army of his day
2) So many to choose from, I'm going to go for the British redcoat infantry though :) Second place goes to the Israeli armed forces from 1948-present
3) Peninsula war campaign, considering the obstacles the British and their allies faced, winning it was quite an achievement. Austerlitz would come a close second. Third would be the 2nd Bull Run
4) Cannae
5) Arnhem, specifically the fighting for the bridge
6) France-England :D
7) Agincourt or Bailen
8) Waterloo, one hell of a way to smash Napoleon's dreams :goodjob:
9) Napoleon invading Russia
10) 19th century to the modern period, mostly Europe.

Zeekater

Sep 09, 2004, 05:48 PM

Bugfatty300

Sep 09, 2004, 06:19 PM

1) The Greatest General
1) The Greatest General
2) The Greatest Army
3) The Greatest Campaign
4) The Greatest Battle (tactics-wise)
5) The Greatest Battle (purely for heroics)
6) Greatest Rivalry
7) Biggest Upset
8) Most glorious victory
9) The Worst Error
10) Your favorite area of military history

1. Napoleon 2nd: Robert E. Lee
2. US 1945 2nd: Red Army 1945
3. Russian advance on Germany
4. Cannae
5. Thermopylae
6. US and Soviet Union (Cold War) 2nd: Britain and France
7. Pearl Harbor 2nd: Bull Run
8. Russians capture Berlin
9. Operation Barberosa 2nd: German decleration of war on US, 1941.
10. 1700s-present

pawpaw

Sep 09, 2004, 07:42 PM

North King

Sep 09, 2004, 08:58 PM

Birdjaguar

Sep 09, 2004, 10:48 PM

Elgalad

Sep 10, 2004, 01:03 AM

Mongoloid Cow

Sep 10, 2004, 03:27 AM

1) The Greatest General
Napoleon Bonaparte.

2) The Greatest Army
Genghis Khan's Mongols. The best trained, the most disciplined, the most versatile, and the most mobile.

3) The Greatest Campaign
The campaign of General Subedei. No general has ever been able to match his campaign... (conquered the last of the Khwarazmian empire, then marched north across the Caucasus (something IIRC only 2 other armies in the history of the world have done successfully) subduing all states in his wake, dispersed the steppe empires to the north of that, then he crossed the frozen Russian rivers and defeated a Russian army 13 times large with very few casualties before heading east again.

4) The Greatest Battle (tactics-wise)
Cannae. Ancient battles seem to be far better as the later it got, the bigger the weapons got and tactics was thrown out of the window

5) The Greatest Battle (purely for heroics)
Gallipoli (hey, I am Australian)

6) Greatest Rivalry
So much rivalry, hard to pick. Assyria and Babylonia had quite a good, long rivalry spanning over a millenia. I'll go that one.

7) Biggest Upset
Agincourt. If only the French weren't so stupid to put all their forces into a narrow battlefield where they would be decimated by the English archers, or if they even had kept to their original tactics.

8) Most glorious victory
The Russians capturing Berlin. Ended WWII in one hemisphere at least.

9) The Worst Error
Empires invading Russia in the winter, done by those after the Mongols did. It seems as though they only did it because the Mongols had far greater success fighting in the Russian winter that they thought they could do it to, but unfortunately for them the Mongols were far more prepared, and they did it to cross the frozen rivers easily, giving their greatest strength (their mobility) a far greater advantage.

10) Your favorite area of military history
I don't really like military history :p

Drakan

Sep 10, 2004, 03:55 AM

1)The Greatest General
Hmmm difficult, Hannibal, Alexander or Napoleon. Alexander I guess. The only battle he lost in his 33 years of life was against death itself, and even so he clung to life being poisoned for more than a week. Unlike the other two who were eventually defeated.

2) The Greatest Army
Roman Legions, so purrrrrrrfect.

3) The Greatest Campaign
Napoleon’s

4) The Greatest Battle (tactics-wise)
Cannae

5) The Greatest Battle (purely for heroics)
Spartan king Leonidas and 300 spartans engaging over a million Persians in the Thermopylaes strait during three days IIRC knowing death was the only possible outcome, just awesome.

6) Greatest Rivalry
Rome vs.Carthage, for centuries.....only one could remain standing. "Carthago delenda est" -- Cato's sig always as a reminder before the SPQR.

7) Biggest Upset
The loss Of the Invincible Armada –big sigh-. (Big grin from Privatehudson I guess ;)

8) Most glorious victory
Defeat Of Nazi Germany

9) The Worst Error
Sideburn’s in the American Civil War sending his troops into a huge crater left by an explosion was pretty bad. More than 4,000 dead in twenty minutes.

10) Your favorite area of military history
None specially, I like all.

privatehudson

Sep 10, 2004, 04:15 AM

The loss Of the Invincible Armada –big sigh-. (Big grin from Privatehudson I guess

No grin, after all, it wasn't an upset, we were always likely to win :smug: ;)

Drakan

Sep 10, 2004, 04:20 AM

Rofl :lol:

Suppersalmon

Sep 10, 2004, 06:46 AM

Stefan Haertel

Sep 10, 2004, 10:12 AM

1) The Greatest General
2) The Greatest Army
3) The Greatest Campaign
4) The Greatest Battle (tactics-wise)
5) The Greatest Battle (purely for heroics)
6) Greatest Rivalry
7) Biggest Upset
8) Most glorious victory
9) The Worst Error
10) Your favorite area of military history

1) Gaius Iulius Caesar
2) The Sacan army. Successful in stopping the greatest war machine of its time (Alexander the Great's army).
3) That of Alexander the Great purely for the fact that it was perhaps the most victorious one ever
4) Cannae
5) I'll probably get a thousand cheers from Republicans here: Alamo
6) France and Germany before and during the First World War
7) Salamis
8) Occupation of nazi Germany
9) Not asking that girl from my class out when I should have
10) Those of peace. I guess I have a soft spot for classical antiquity and Asian middle ages, in all areas, even military.

dgfred

Sep 10, 2004, 10:27 AM

@ Stefan- #9 :lol: :rotfl: :lol: . I had the same error! :cry: :sad: . I
still think of it sometimes even though it happened in 1979 :crazyeye: .

Vasileius

Sep 10, 2004, 10:53 AM

Arminius

Sep 10, 2004, 12:35 PM

1) Lee or Rommel
2) Allied Army (1944)
3) Alexander's Conquering of the (known) World
4) Cannae
5) Thermopylae or Brest (Russian)
6) Rome and the Barbarians of Germany
7) The First Manassas (If CSA would have pushed it could have ended the war)
8) Teutoburg Forest
9) FDR courting Stalin
10) Europe including the Middle East (Not a time period)

Jawz II

Sep 12, 2004, 03:55 PM

i heard on discovery once that the vietnamese general gap is considered the best general ever, even by his enemys

i dunno if this is true or not (before a crap storm starts), but i do know the american general westmoreland is considered incompetent.

rommel was good too, guderian and zhjukov, both very good.

not a general but admiral donitz was very skilled also, and had some integrity

greatest battle: kursk

Bugfatty300

Sep 12, 2004, 04:27 PM

i heard on discovery once that the vietnamese general gap is considered the best general ever, even by his enemys

General Giap was very successful against the French ofcourse, but his military genius seemed to fade when he was defeated by the Americans at Khe Sahn and Tet, even though his forces greatly outnumbered his enemy. The last straw was in 1972 just as America was nearing with-draw. He led the Eastern Offensive and was again defeated with massive casaulties. The Communist removed Giap from command permantly after that.

He was an excellant tactition nonetheless but applying them in battle was never his strong points.

Nobody

Sep 12, 2004, 06:31 PM

1) Gengis khan
2) The current american army (well before 2001)
3) D-day to the end of the war.
4) Operation overlord or Operation Desert storm.
5) Stalingrad, or battle of Britain of battle of Bunkerhill
6) Britain and germany.
7) The battle of the kursk
8) germany over france ww2
9) hitler attack the ussr with britain still behind them.
10) It changes everynow and then, but right now the korean war. overall 1850 to 1914

Amenhotep7

Sep 12, 2004, 07:29 PM

1) Gaius Julius Caesar

The Romans were not accustomed to fighting in the style of the Gauls. Julius Caesar basically conquered the unconquerable. And he fine-tuned the Legions into the best damn troops yet, and many aspects of the Imperial Legions' training and warfare survive to this day.

2) Roman Legions (Early Imperial)

Read some of what I said above. Basically, these guys, with help of some other sources, have shaped modern warfare.

3) Operation Overlord or Caesar's Gallic Campaigns

I'm split. Operation Overlord basically dismantled, along with the Soviet generals Zhukov and Chuikov, the entire German war machine. The fact that somebody could pull off something like this is incredible.

Then there's Julius Caesar's Gallic Campaigns. I like it because of how well he utilize his resources, and did two of the most foolhardy things at the time; Not only cross but BRIDGE the Rhine, and get a tenetive foothold in Britain.

4) Battle of Zama

It wasn't necessarily the battle itself that was great, but it was the fact that Rome successfully landed on the shores of Tunisia, into the lion's den, catching the Carthaginians with their trousers down! :eek: Though Hannibal came back, thus began the pitched battle. However, the battle itself was great because it basically showed planning and shock tactics.

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/zama.html

5) Battle of Thermopylae

Though the Spartans lost, the fact that they, only 300 in number, stood up to 25,000 Persians knowing they were going to die, and succeed in taking out 10,000 of them, that deserves the title Greatest Battle (Heroics).

'Go, tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

6)Rome vs. Carthage

Come now, the two represented two COMPLETELY different styles of empire, and they slugged it out through three wars before one emerged victorious.

7)Fall 1944

Eisenhower missed a golden opportunity by not sending Patton and Montgomery into Germany, to take it by Christmas 1944. Basically setting the stage for the Cold War.

8)Alesia

It finally established the Roman Empire's supreme dominance of Gaul for the next 500 years, and hell, it's another victory for Gaius Julius Caesar. For years, military strategists and generals have applied Julius Caesar's tactics to win their own battles. It's an impressive feat!

9)Crassus' Invasion of Parthia

Crassus wanted to get fame so quick, and ended up dying for it. Had Crassus bided his time, Mesopotamia could have been added to the empire much sooner, perhaps paving the way for Trajan to conquer the rest of Parthia.

10) I like from Ancient Ages to Dark Ages, then I like WWII.

Xen

Sep 12, 2004, 09:30 PM

1) The Greatest General
2) The Greatest Army
3) The Greatest Campaign
4) The Greatest Battle (tactics-wise)
5) The Greatest Battle (purely for heroics)
6) Greatest Rivalry
7) Biggest Upset
8) Most glorious victory
9) The Worst Error
10) Your favorite area of military history

1)Belisarius; did so much, with so little
2)Imperial Roman legions as feilded by Emperor Trajan
3)The Conquest of Asia by Alexander
4)ZAMA! where maginifcent Scipio defeated the dastardlly master of Cannae ;)
5)Thermopalaye; it takes balls to that, big ones.
6) Rome/Carthage, and the English/French
7)Well, not a military base dupset, but the sinking of multiple Mongol fleets from conqouring Japanl other wise, the defeat of the SPanish Armada
8)The Battle of Walting Street; 10,000 legioanries afianst OVER 100,000 Celts;a bloody slaughty that prooved the sueriority of Roman arms and tactics agiasnt even the most numerous foes
9)Adrinaple; the entire battle, fromt he emperors choice to go into it without the re-inforcments he shoudl have bee waitnign for tot he faulty deploment and caryring our of orders by the troops, to even the very terrian the battle was on; everyhting was a complete disaster
10)ancient and dark age :D

Johann MacLeod

Sep 12, 2004, 10:01 PM

1) The Greatest General- Napoleon, Caesar, or Frederick the Great
2) The Greatest Army- Mongol Hoarde
3) The Greatest Campaign- Alexander the Great's
4) The Greatest Battle (tactics-wise)- Frederick the Greats
5) The Greatest Battle (purely for heroics)- Lutzen or Hastings
6) Greatest Rivalry- England vs France
7) Biggest Upset- Napoleons Russian Campaign, or Burgoynes newyork
8) Most glorious victory-Battle of Stirling Bridge
9) The Worst Error- France 7 years war
10) Your favorite area of military history - middle ages to Napoleon

BOTP

Sep 13, 2004, 03:12 PM

4)ZAMA! where maginifcent Scipio defeated the dastardlly master of Cannae ;)

Scipio was a great general no doubt but you have to remember that the tactics he used had been invented by Hannibal (e.g. Cannae). The tactics he actually he employed were actually Hannibal's. so :D

Rik Meleet

Sep 13, 2004, 03:36 PM

Xen

Sep 13, 2004, 04:15 PM

Scipio was a great general no doubt but you have to remember that the tactics he used had been invented by Hannibal (e.g. Cannae). The tactics he actually he employed were actually Hannibal's. so :D

Not really; it ended up being similer to cannae, but the bulk of the battle was hugelly DIFFERENT; with cavarly takign on the cavaalry (where as, you'll duelly note, the Romans themselves had pitiful cavalry in this era, hence the need for the numidian allies who supplied it for them), while the infantry made up a big slug-out that lastest most of the day; huge differences

BOTP

Sep 13, 2004, 04:20 PM

Not really; it ended up being similer to cannae, but the bulk of the battle was hugelly DIFFERENT; with cavarly takign on the cavaalry (where as, you'll duelly note, the Romans themselves had pitiful cavalry in this era, hence the need for the numidian allies who supplied it for them), while the infantry made up a big slug-out that lastest most of the day; huge differences

It has always seemed to me that Cannae was a more tactical victory compared to Zama. Hannibal won Cannae with his ingenius, innovative, imaginitive tactics, while Zama was won because the Roman Cavalry flanked the Carthaginian infantry. Both battles saw the use of cavalry to as a major factor, but, as I have said many times, Cannae probably could have been won without cavalry while Zama could have only won with cavalry.

Xen

Sep 13, 2004, 04:26 PM

BOTP

Sep 13, 2004, 05:19 PM

your statment is the single biggest reason why Zama was a bigger victory tactics wise; Scipio at least, and finally perfected a Roman army that could have sub units operte effectivlly on the tactical, due to all that campaiging in Spain

Are you kidding me? Scipio never outwitted Hannibal tactically, he simply had superior troops. Hannibal couldn't manipulate Scipio, his most attentive student, any longer, he could not make the battle favor him for he rushed from across the Med Sea, while Scipio had quite some time to prepare around Carthage for his arrival. He could not make the best out of new recruits or weak and outnumbered cavalry. His time had come. He took a gamble and lost. He was so close, yet so far. He was also forced into this predicament by the Carthiginian senate and circumstance. Scipio had superior cavalry, superior infantry (veterans I might add, bent on redeeming themselves and vengeance), strategic advantage (no rush, practically had north Africa in the palm of his hand as Hannibal was in Italy). And he had all the other advantages stated earlier. When they finally met at Zama, Scipio held three out of four aces in the deck, and was able to deal with the only ace Hannibal had. He had leveled the difference in cavalry (he might actually have had the advantage), and by doing so he had negated the possibility for a repeat of Cannae. He had the upper hand in the infantry department. He held the initiative... and even then, the battle was by all accounts a close run thing, nowhere near the ingenius of Cannae. Cannae is better, trust me. The only equal it has is Austerlitz, other than that, it has no superior or rival.

Amenhotep7

Sep 13, 2004, 05:21 PM

@BOTP

Read the link in my post. Zama was tactical brilliance, yet simplicity.

Xen

Sep 13, 2004, 05:27 PM

BOTP

Sep 13, 2004, 05:48 PM

again, you state why Zama was the the more tactally superior battle;

A)Roman troops; Scipio knew he had to get better troops then the common stock in italy; though regardless, he was sent into Spain, where his troops; and more important, the commanders of the individual mainples, coudl gain expreience in battle

Scipio's troops were green and low on morale, until he began training and drilling them. He made them into one hell of a body of troops. The Manipula formation wasn't somethign new, rather a more improved version, though noting radical. Granted, they were skilled, and most imprtantly, they outclassed Hannibal's feeble levies in everyway, because of the reformation Scipio made. I'll give him credit for that.

B)strategy isnt limted to a the cours eof a battle; it also counts everyhtign the generals do leadeing upt he that battle, a poitn where Scipio obviouslyl outdose Hannibal

First of all, Scipio never had to cope with the strategical and operational difficulties that Hannibal did, as far as I know. Scipio, though a brilliant commander skilled in calculation, was not stranded in the middle of enemy territory against an enemy whose manpower pool was HUGE and ability to project that power was efficient. He was not leading an army of culturally different groups who fought mainly for the gold and he was not opposed and handicapped by his own senate. He had the advantage of being able to study his ingenius opponent. He had the advantage of the Roman legions and the Roman masses. He had the advantage of a wide open communication and supply line. He had the advantage of reinforcements. He had the advantage of transportation. The only clear cut challenge he could have had that was equal to the challenges Hannibal faced was if he had to face Hannibal himself in Spain or Italy or whereever(not when Hannibal had every advantage stripped away and forced into a final battle that finished off an already completed war). Scipio was a better general than the relatively tactically weak generals that Hannibal had stationed in Iberia to protect Carthaginian holdings. While Hannibal was busy trying to break the stalemate the annoying consul Marcellus had imposed in Italia, Scipio had a great time laying waste to the Carthaginian colonies in Iberia. Hasdrubal was not a very good general compared to Scipio, especially when compared to Hannibal himself.

C)troop wise, the infantry fo carthage, and that of Rome were quite close; it was the commnderes who made the big difference, and in this case i dont talk about either scipio or Hannibal, btu rather the sub commanders, and the sub-commander sof those sub-commanders, who were the ones makign soem of the more real-time, on the fly/seat of your pants type command choices; sure th eoverall strategy was deemed by Scipio fro the roman side of things at least, but it took a goo d sub-commander to when when to tell his troops to launch the javlins, or when his troops, and had enough fightign for a while, without taking too many loosesor pulling back too early, so as to inflict the most damage on the enemy

disagree. The Legions Scipio had under his command were superior. As for Hannibal's men,an army of conscripts and untested mercenaries, was relatively low quality, weak, tired, and mulnourished, and exhausted from years of endless fighting, and a long voyage home. while Scipio army was strong, rested, and nourished so he would have won no matter what Hannibal did.

BOTP

Sep 13, 2004, 05:53 PM

@BOTP

Read the link in my post. Zama was tactical brilliance, yet simplicity.

Zama was impressive, although I don't find it nearly as impressive as some of his other victories, such as Austerlitz and Cannae. The outcome of Zama was in question through the entire battle, and was largely inconclusive, it wasn't until the very end that it became decisive. On the otherhand, Cannae, in my opinion, was a much more cunning and brilliant victory. I recommend "Cannae" by Adrian Goldsworthy...very detailed and well researched.

pawpaw

Sep 13, 2004, 07:08 PM

I recommend "Cannae" by Adrian Goldsworthy...very detailed and well researched.

didn't know he had that one, have "punic wars & " the complete roman army"

Warman17

Sep 13, 2004, 08:20 PM

1) Patton
2) Roman Military Machine
3) Pennisular war
4) Cannae
5) Thermapolye
6) Montgomery-Rommel
7) Sparticus beating legions
8) Normandy(has recieved so much attension)
9) Russian Winter(both Neapolion and Hitler)
10) ww2

wildWolverine

Sep 13, 2004, 09:37 PM

Alone

Sep 13, 2004, 10:59 PM

Birdjaguar

Sep 14, 2004, 12:32 AM

If you want an amazing analysis of Zama and most other important battles of antiquity I highly reccomend the following by Hans Delbruck. He was a 19th C German historian.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/080329199X/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-9758337-8608723#reader-link

I have not been able to find this volume of his History of the Art of War on line, so I cannot post it easily. If there is interest in his look at Zama, I will scan it and piece it together over the next several days and put it up. Delbruck digs deep into the tactics of each general and pulls some very interesting rabbits out of his hat.

Adler17

Sep 14, 2004, 02:30 AM

I'd be very interested to have users opinions on:
1) The Greatest General
2) The Greatest Army
3) The Greatest Campaign
4) The Greatest Battle (tactics-wise)
5) The Greatest Battle (purely for heroics)
6) Greatest Rivalry
7) Biggest Upset
8) Most glorious victory
9) The Worst Error
10) Your favorite area of military history

1. Frederic the Great.
In the 7 years war he fought with only little support from England and Hannover against Austria, Sweden, Saxony, Russia and France. He was able to hold his position and keeping all of his territories.

2. Mongol Golden Horde
They captured nearly whole Asia, Russia and beat the Germans and Poles in Liegnitz in Silesia, where they missed their chance to conquer Europe because of the death of the Great Kahn. I don´t think I must explain more...

3. 7 years war
Frederic the Great´s magnificient strategy to fight a defensive war against nearly all European powers- and win. Fighting once in Bohemia, then in Thuringia, Silesia, Pommerania and East Prussia within a short time and although close to total defeat winning the war. A masterpiece of a defensive war campaign.

4. Leuthen or Tannenberg or...
Difficult question. At Leuthen Frederic the Great was able to beat with 30.000 men 60.000 Austrians with little casualities due to his tactical skill. Tannenberg 1914, where the German beat the 1st Russian army although outnumbered by far. but it is hard to decide and I have at least ten other battles including Cannae which are worth to be mentioned here. So I chose battles not mentioned here.

5. Thermopylae
Fighting with so few men such a supremacy and hold them for days, the Spartans and the allies of Leonidas fought a battle which is worth to be sung in a Klingon opera. ;)

6. Germany and France until Adenauer and de Gaulle
Over 1000 years of hostilities with big victories and big defeats for each side. I think this is the worst rivalry of the world.

7. Sedan. The French army went into the battle even with their families thinking it would be an easy way to Berlin in 1870. Well in 1871 Paris surrendered... Here again it is hard to choose so I mentioned again a battle not mentioned already. Again there are many battles to be mentioned including Kursk or the Chinese invasions of Japan, which failed.

8. Tanga 1914. General Paul von Lettow- Vorbeck defended successfully Tanga with only less than 1000 soldiers against 8000 British/ Indian soldiers. Also hard to choose, so again I chose a battle not very known.

9. Napoleon and Hitler attacking Russia too late.

10. From the end of the 30 years war to ww2.

Adler

Johann MacLeod

Sep 15, 2004, 10:02 PM

No offense to French civfanatics, but being successful against the French isn't all that difficult...

tell that to the english who lost all their french terretory. btw beng succesful againt the germans is even esier, cuz i you notice they lost the last couple wars...

viper275

Sep 15, 2004, 11:22 PM

1: Robert E. Lee.
2: The Roman Army.
3: Alexander the Great's conquests.
4: What else but Cannae?
5: Gettysburg.
6: Lots of possible candidates here, probably Rome/Carthage.
7: Probably the first few weeks of WWII. Amazes me how fast Germany conquered Poland.
8: Ottoman attack of Constantinople.
9: Napoleon invading Russia during the winter :crazyeye: .
10: All of it! Favorites probably are recent (300 or less years ago) and Classical Greece/Rome (maybe 500 BC-500 AD.)

privatehudson

Sep 16, 2004, 03:44 AM

Uhmmm, Napoleon invaded Russia in the summer, things just dragged on a little too much :lol:

Drakan

Sep 16, 2004, 04:40 AM

5) Battle of Thermopylae

Though the Spartans lost, the fact that they, only 300 in number, stood up to 25,000 Persians knowing they were going to die, and succeed in taking out 10,000 of them, that deserves the title Greatest Battle (Heroics).

'Go, tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

I believe they were facing one of the largest armies of Persians ever, which depending on who tells the story, spanned anywhere from half a million to a million men. They were certainly more than 25.000 persians by all means facing them, at leat twentyfold. Another matter was that the Persians couldn't manouver their troops to take overwhelming advantage of their number because the strait was just sooo narrow (clever Greeks) allowing only 10 or less man in width from side to side. Besides a tribe of 400 men also stayed to die and fight on Sparta's side, so it wasn't only three hundred.

privatehudson

Sep 16, 2004, 04:53 AM

There may have been up to 500,000 present, but the actual number of troops engaged woud have been much less than that figure I would say :)

Amenhotep7

Sep 16, 2004, 05:56 AM

How many were there? O wait, I think it may have been 250,000...Lemme check, I may have crossed wires somewhere...

Mongoloid Cow

Sep 16, 2004, 06:03 AM

Mongols_rule

Sep 16, 2004, 06:52 AM

1) The Greatest General - Hannibal of Carthage
2) The Greatest Army - Genghis Khan's mounted archers
3) The Greatest Campaign - probably, Hannibal's invasion through Italy
4) The Greatest Battle (tactics-wise) - CANNAE
5) The Greatest Battle (purely for heroics) - Thermopylae!!!!!
6) Greatest Rivalry - Rome and Carthage
7) Biggest Upset - Cannae (for the Romans)
8) Most glorious victory - Cannae again (for the Carthaginians)
9) The Worst Error - Napoleon invades Russia
10) Your favorite area of military history - ANCIENT!!!!!!

Xen

Sep 16, 2004, 07:50 AM

[b]Chanmge of Vote[/v]

i chancge my vote from Zama, to, IIRC< "cold creek", or osmthing along those lines of the (american) civil war

teccuk

Sep 16, 2004, 08:08 AM

1) Wellington
2) Sorry but it has to be present US
3) Alexander's!!!
4) Waterloo
5) Battle of Bodicea (Brit / Celt) v's Romans
6) Britian / France
7) Vietnam War
8) Final defeat of the Nazis
9) Galippoli (damn you idiot generals for killing all those brave Kiwis!)
10) Romans vs Celts

Birdjaguar

Sep 16, 2004, 08:25 AM

Actually the Greeks tended to over exaggerate the opposition to sound superior. The Persian army which invaded Greece under Xerxes would not have been much larger than 50,000. There is no way an ancient army could have been 500,000 large... think of the sheer logistics, in enemy territory no less!!!
Right on MC. Your 50,000 Persians is probably pretty close to the mark. The exagerated numbers given by the greeks cannot be supported in any way: logisitically, space wise, recruitment wise etc. I refer you all to Hans Delbruck's "the history of the art of war vol. 1." linked to above.

Mongols_rule

Sep 16, 2004, 12:35 PM

hey, remember when 300 Spartans killed over 10,000 Persians?

Jason The King

Sep 16, 2004, 10:22 PM

1) The Greatest General: Alexander
2) The Greatest Army: US Army pre-1998
3) The Greatest Campaign: Hitler's campaign of Europe.
4) The Greatest Battle (tactics-wise): most of the greek vs persian battles.
5) The Greatest Battle (purely for heroics): D-Day
6) Greatest Rivalry: USSR-USA
7) Biggest Upset: dunno
8) Most glorious victory: D-Day, Trafalgar
9) The Worst Error: Operation Barbarossa
10) Your favorite area of military history: WW1-WW2, and Ancient times.

Birdjaguar

Sep 16, 2004, 11:21 PM

hey, remember when 300 Spartans killed over 10,000 Persians?
I am older than most of you, but not that old.;)

blindside

Sep 17, 2004, 12:13 AM

hey, remember when 300 Spartans killed over 10,000 Persians?
Is this factually true? Seems like typical winner's side of the story.

Mescalhead

Sep 17, 2004, 01:27 AM

1. Iulius Caesar
2. Medieval Mongolian Horseman
3. Alexander's conquest of SW Asia/NE Africa.
4. Pharsalus (Caesar vs. Pompey).
5. Gai Xia (if the accounts are accurate), otherwise, Battle of the Bulge
6. Byzantium vs. Turks
7. Adrianople
8. Midway
9. Valens not waiting for reinforcements under Gratian
10. Early Iron Age to the advent of gun powder.

Dreadnought

Sep 17, 2004, 05:02 AM

You have been watching decisive battles, haven't you, mescalhead?

Dreadnought

Sep 17, 2004, 05:08 AM

Mescalhead

Sep 17, 2004, 06:22 PM

You have been watching decisive battles, haven't you, mescalhead?

Funny thing, I just saw the Adrianople episode right after I posted this. It's okay, but I'd rather take a look at books.

Dreadnought

Sep 17, 2004, 07:27 PM

Rome Total War looks awsome, don't you think, mescalhead?

Steve Thompson

Sep 17, 2004, 08:13 PM

1) The Greatest General
Genghis Khan, or one of his dogs of war, maybe Chepe/Jebe Noyon or maybe Subotai/Subedei perhaps. Of course that's a hard choice to make but consider the timelessness of the Mongols' tactics and such - the West didn't really catch up until WWII!

2) The Greatest Army
Probably, I'd say the Mongols of the early to mid 13th century, and again it's the timelessness - communications, tactics, strategy, terror, what have you. But Nazi Germany isn't far behind. But that's tricky too, I mean the Mongols and Nazis accomplished a lot with their forces but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the "best". Finland didn't take over huge pieces of land or any large cities but their army was certainly a good one in WWII.

3) The Greatest Campaign
BARBAROSSA!!! Subotai and Jebe's campaign around the Caspian Sea just wasn't as MASSIVE as the invasion of the Soviet Union.

4) The Greatest Battle (tactics-wise)
hmmm.... I guess... Cannae or Tannenberg (1914 not 1410!) would have to be it, but there's so many to choose from! I guess I have a thing for "cauldron battles"...

5) The Greatest Battle (purely for heroics)
Once again, it's hard to single out just one, but I'd would say Leonidas and his men at Thermopylae.

6) Greatest Rivalry
France and Germany, or Russia and Germany, or Rome and Carthage, or Rome and Persia, or England and France, or...

7) Biggest Upset
Stalingrad! But there's also Teutoburger Wald and Manzikert and Agincourt and maybe Waterloo. I guess you could say Cannae and Arbela/Guagamela were "upsets" since the losers had a great numerical advantage...

8) Most glorious victory
AHHH..... either the Mongol capture of Samarkand, the destruction of Beyazid and his army at Ankara, the Nazi conquest of France and the Low Countries in 1940, or the surrender of over 600k Soviet soldiers around Kiev in 1941.

9) The Worst Error
hmmm.... the Germans' underestimating the USSR's ability to replace lost armies, the West's allying with and aiding the Soviets, I don't know there's so many! Maybe that stupid trip to Karakorum the Mongols had to make to elect a new khan - it cost them parts of eastern and central Europe and it gave the Mamelukes a chance to strike at them at Ain Jalut!

10) Your favorite area of military history
The Mongols, the Germans in WWI and WWII, and maybe the Napoleanic Wars and the War of 1812

Bugfatty300

Sep 17, 2004, 08:15 PM

[b]Chanmge of Vote[/v]

i chancge my vote from Zama, to, IIRC< "cold creek", or osmthing along those lines of the (american) civil war

You mean Cold Harbor.

I also would like to change my biggest upset to the Battle of New Orleans. I watched a detailed description of it on the HC a few weeks ago. I had no idea that the British regulars were so soundly defeated by an outnumbered (yet well intrenched) iferior enemy.

Steve Thompson

Sep 17, 2004, 08:18 PM

Just to clarify, I hold communism (in practice AND theory) in total disdain and to an extent sympathize with some of the Axis powers of WWII.

Amenhotep7

Sep 17, 2004, 08:47 PM

Is this factually true? Seems like typical winner's side of the story.

Quite funny, because those stats were pulled up by the Greeks, who actually lost the battle.

blindside

Sep 17, 2004, 08:57 PM

Quite funny, because those stats were pulled up by the Greeks, who actually lost the battle.
Really doesn't matter if they won or lost, either way they would exxagerate it.

Birdjaguar

Sep 17, 2004, 10:25 PM

To kill 10,000 persians, each spartan would have to have killed 30 plus. That seems a pretty improbably kill ratio for hand to hand combat, even if the greeks were better armed and armored. And for every greek who died early, before killing his 30, the remaining had to kill more.

Mescalhead

Sep 17, 2004, 11:32 PM

Rome Total War looks awsome, don't you think, mescalhead?

Definately, but I don't have the money for that right now so I'm not even thinking about it. Also I had never played Medival Total War either, so when I first saw the show a few weeks back I had thought "wouldn't it be cool if they made a game with that engine?" I found out last week that it was. :crazyeye:

Jeff Yu

Sep 18, 2004, 01:13 AM