COTM 04: Spoiler 2: Entering the Industrial ages

Well, you started off with a fairly good starting position, although you probably found your expansion under a bit of pressure with some close neighbours. If you could assimilate them under your control, you could get a good productive empire up and running. Otherwise, you could work with them to speed your research progress. Or you could do something different?

Which path did you choose?

To qualify for this spoiler, you must be researching an industrial-age technology. You must have contacts with all other civilizations that are still alive. You must have, as a minimum, maps showing the majority of the coastlines of all major land masses, and the locations of the capital cities of all other civs.

Please do not post screenshots that show industrial-age or later resources.

Ancient ages (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2177457&postcount=131)

The starting location was really awesome. I have produced settler every 4 turns and there was still place where to settle. I have claimed large central part of the continent (see picture 10 AD).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/horragoth/cotm04/10AD.jpg

I had refrained from using JTs through despotism period, and used JT only to trigger well timed GA after entering Republic. Having a large number of cities in GA allowed me to build Great Library, Great Lighthouse (I have captured pyramids as well) and every wonder from Middle ages on.

Second expansion wave included settlement of small continent NE, and western half of that farther NEE. Those cities are not productive, but they were intended to improve chances of getting resources. It has actually paid, because it provided salpeter source which is not available on the main continent.

Since researching Military Tradition my military power is unchallenged and I could easily pick the interesting parts of Aztecs and Americans territory (lux) as well as destroy Spanish who suddenly DOW me.

I am researching tech every 4 turns and I hope I will manage to build spaceship before my culture reaches 100K.

Open

Ancient Times (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2162383&postcount=35)

270 Enter the MA. Start on Engineering. Republic, in the middle of my GA, at war with Aztecs.
210 Xochicalco destroyed. Of course, the Aztecs will be in their own (Despotic) GA, so they're churning out units too. I'm still winning….
190 Even though I probably won't get it, I start a run at the ToA.
130 Captured Teotihuacan.
110 WW is kicking in - so I sign peace with Aztecs for Chalco and Tula. Er, looks like that Barb camp is still open for business… though they didn't attack Chalco? Checking a few things: Iroquois have no Iron, America no Horses or Iron. Spain have both. Aztecs only have Iron, but they *should* be able to hook up Horses. Unless I do first. IBT: Saxon tribes sack Chalco repeatedly. Not for much, at least.
90 Sell Currency to Aztecs for 230g. Stupid boy, Monty. IBT: America finishes Polytheism and enters the MA.
50 Last turn of GA.
AD 50 Establish all Embassies.
110 Challenge Aztecs to remove their units from my territory. They declare on me.
150 Capture Tlacopan and Aztec Iron.
230 Aztec is all but finished - no more Iron, no Horses, and after I've captured his Furs, that'll do. (He has got a lot of Size 1 cities on the Tundra to the south, which will prove annoying in mopping up. I'll get some in a peace deal, then challenge any straggling forces he leave in my borders again....)
250 A glorious day for the Mayan people as Blue-Quetzal-Macaw leads his fearsome Horsemen in the destruction of an Aztec archer unit. He will toddle off to form an army forthwith, and it shall be filled with Swordsmen!
270 Sell Republic to Spain for 124g and 8gpt - humma humma!
280 Tlatelolco destroyed.
310 Texococo captured. That's the potential 'thorns in the side' captured, now to go after the furs.
320 Another Civ completes the ToA. I think I'd have been pipped, just - I switched to Sistine a while back, though.
330 Another Civ completes the GL. Could've, didn't want.
350 Finally, the AI researches something! Trade Theology+Engineering to America for Feudalism+8gpt+56g. Switch Chichen Itza to Sun Tzu's (2 turns), Tikal to Sistine.
360 Destroyed Ixtapaluca.
370 Completed Sun Tzu's in Chichen Itza. Hanging Gardens is finished elsewhere. Sell Literature+Silks for Gems+19g to America.
400 WW hitting again, so I sign peace with Aztecs for two cities after taking Calixtlahuaca and its furs.
590 I tell an American Archer where to go. America, oddly enough, DoW on me.
610 Where's the frickin' Saltpeter, Ainwood?
620 Capture San Francisco.
630 Capture Philadelphia. 8 Workers - bonus!
650 Capture Atlanta.
660 Capture Washington, The Oracle, and the still-in-effect Great Wall!
670 IBT: Atlanta flips, I lose a regular Med Inf.
680 Capture New York.
700 Re-capture Atlanta, capture Seattle.
720 Capture Miami.
730 Capture Chicago, the last American city within reach (Houston is in the far north of Spain…). Negotiate peace for all his gold, and gpt.
740 Now there's an Iroquois chariot in my territory. Will I ever get a chance to finish off the Aztecs?! IBT: Iroquois DoW.

A few turns earlier, I'd finished Navigation (having given up on suicide Galleys ages ago...) and my Caravels had reached new shorelines....

750 Contact with Byzantines, sell Education for gpt and gold.
760 Contact with Sumeria. Sell Education for lots. Sell Invention for Ivory.
780 Contact with Celts. Sell Education, Furs, WM, Silks for Wines.
790 After capturing Tonawanda, the Iroquois also give me Oil Spring for peace. How nice of them. They're in their GA now, I'm guessing.
910 I challenge a Spanish stack, they declare on me. My first attack with an Elite Knight produces a GL! Knight Army! Er… then the RNG gets really nice to me. My SECOND attack with an Elite, after building the Army, produces another GL!
930 Captured Zaragoza.
940 Research Metallurgy (Great Wall obsolete) and enter the Industrial Age. My first time before 1000AD, a personal milestone :-) Gift Germany (who was still in the AA!), Byzantines, and Sumeria into the IA. Germany and Byz get Medicine. Sumeria gets Nationalism. Best I can do Steam Power in is 5 turns at a deficit, but I'll definitely go for that. Germany will give me Medicine for Navigation, Silks, Furs, WM, and 170g - and he gives me back 23g. Um, alright. Sumeria, with a monopoly, won't give up Nationalism for any price just yet.

The MA for me quickly turned into the Era of reaction - reaction to the three neighbours who remained potential threats DoW'ing me in quick succession (but not all at once, which would've been more fun). I got hold of all the Wonders except those not researched, and the KT, which I was happy to give up and use as a pre-build for Magellan's. The lack of Saltpeter was in no way a killer, because my opponents for the large part lacked Iron and/or Horses. I eventually found the Island off the NE coast of America with Saltpeter on it, but I think the Iroquois would've been just as easy to kill with Knights as they were with Cavs.

Having no plans for invasion, and having lost 20+ turns researching Republic all by myself, I wasn't going to try for a spaceship. Culture wouldn't be quick enough, either. So I went to the fallback UN plan (which I stuffed up a little, see next post, I guess).

Neil. :cool:

Let's just say the continent was mine before Navigation, though there were no dishonourable things to report about me, and for the first time in my life I was sending out suicide Caravels. The second continent seemed war-torn, driving out the Byzantines to the icey islands in the north and two Civs still in the AA. Although I could easily go for an easy conquest or domination win, I had already decided before the start of the game that the top players would beat me to it and I had more chance for a diplo. I only 'traded' with the scientific civs for their bonus tech and was facing a lonely IA.

COTM04_Open

In short, for the lazy reader :p - While the Ancient Times were all about peaceful expansion, the Middle Ages, on the other hand, were all about conquering the continent. We declared war on America in 450 BC, and quickly wiped them out with Horsemen and Javelin Throwers. Next up is the Aztecs, whom we destroyed using Knights during the period of 30 AD to 460 AD. Iroquois fell quickly in a short war from 400 AD to 510 AD. Finally Spain was destroyed, using a combination of Knights and Cavalry now, in a very one-sided war stretching from 640 AD to 740 AD. In 760 AD we found the other continent, and on the following turn we entered the Industrial Age.

*** Ancient Times *** (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2158643&postcount=3)

*** Middle Ages ***

510 BC - Our sole remaining Galley survives a suicice run through the seas north east of our continent, and makes it to the shore of an alien island.

450 BC - With 9 Horsemen and 4 Javelin Throwers on the border to America, we feel more than ready to attack. We declare war. One of our Javelin Throwers wins a battle against an American Warrior guiding a Settler through our land, and starts our Golden Age!

410 BC - We attack Boston, just 4 tiles NE of our capital. The town is heavier defended than we expect (4 Spearmen), but our Horsemen's ability to withdraw mean we take the town without losing a single unit! And as a bonus, with Javelin Throwers moving in after the Horsemen have softened up the defending Spearmen, we manage to turn one of the Spearmen into a slave worker.

390 BC - We lose 2 Horsemen taking Chicago.

350 BC - We give the Iroquois Construction for 2 Workers, 11 Gold and their help in an alliance against America.

310 BC - Our scientists discover Monotheism. We are way ahead in science now, so we feel we can afford to research Literature next, which we can get in 4 turns at only 40% tech-rate, giving a surplus of 53 gpt even after paying our crazy 44 gpt army support cost.

290 BC - We attack Washington with 9 Horsemen. We lose one Horseman killing the three defending Spearmen and take the city and The Oracle.

270 BC - War weariness kicks in. We counter it by upping the Luxury-rate to 20%.

230 BC - We take Atlanta (on Hills) with 8 Horsemen, losing one of them. We discover Literature and start Feudalism.

210 BC - Our Galley has completed a lap around the island in the north east, but could not find anything of value. It's going to continue east on another suicide mission.

190 BC - We attack New York with 6 Horsemen and 2 Javelin Throwers, but in fact only 2 Horsemen are needed to take control of the town.

170 BC - We destroy Seattle. Our Galley sinks.

150 BC - We take Philadelphia, and secure a source of Gems. The Americans now only have two small towns left, one on the Iroquois peninsula and one way up north above Spain. We'll leave those towns alone for now. Next on our list is Spain, but they don't know that yet...

110 BC - We discover Feudalism and start Chivalry (4 turns)

50 BC - We get Furs from the Aztecs for Horses and 3 gpt. They have a Horse resource already, which they only need to build a colony on, so giving them Horses isn't a big deal.

10 BC - We discover Chivary and start upgrading Horsemen.

10 AD - Spain have destroyed the final American town. We found Tulúm where Seattle used to be. Meanwhile, the Iroquois are starting to look threatening, running around with Mounted Warriors on our soil for no good reason. Also, Aztecs move an Archer into our land. We decide to postpone the invation of Spain and reinforce our defences instead.

30 AD - The Aztecs move more units into our land! We politely tell them to go away. They declare war. We bribe the Imroquois with Literature for them to declare war on the Aztecs.

70 AD - Things are looking better, we have stopped the Aztec "invasion" (just an Archer and two Jaguar Warriors) and secured the southern towns with Knights. We decide to press on, and kill the pesky Aztecs once and for all. We have now upgraded a good number of Horsemen into Knights, and we have eight cities building Knights in 5 to 10 turns.

110 AD - We easily take Tlacopan on the Aztec north-east coast.

150 AD - We take the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan with 6 Knighs.

170 AD - The Germans have been destroyed.

210 AD - We capture Xochicalco.

230 AD - We capture Calixtlahuaca.

280 AD - Our mighty Knighs take control of Tzintzuntzen.

290 AD - Madrid completes Great Library. We steal Tlateloco and Malinalco.

300 AD - We take Texcoco, but there is a final Aztec "stack of doom" in the region, so we're likely to lose it again soon.

320 AD - Aztecs duly re-take Texcoco. We discover Gunpowder, and find there is no Salpeter available. There is however Salpeter on that lone island far NE (so our brave Galley didn't die in vain after all). We'll keep that in mind when we discover Navigation/Magnetism (which we hope no one does before we have destroyed all our "friends" on our starting continent - we don't want them to spread any "lies" about us to the rest of the world...).

330 AD - One of our lone Veteran Knighs running around in the open, incredibly survives an attack from 3 Swordsmen and one Jaguar Warrior! We take Aztcapotzalco with 2 Elite Knights, and finally get our first Great Leader!

340 AD - We take Texcoco back, and this time we intend to keep it. We build a Knight Army in Cuello.

350 AD - We capture Teotihucan, size 7 and defended by 4 Spearmen and 2 Archers, without losing a single Knight. Our Knight Army wins it's first battle and Copán starts Heroic Epic. Me need to start watching our backs, as the Iroquois make peace with the Aztecs.

360 AD - Chichén Itza completes Leonardo's Workshop! We take Tula.

370 AD - We capture Tlaxcala.

390 AD - Cobá founded in a great "hole" in the former Aztec land. We capture Tamuin.

400 AD - As we were expecting, the Iroquois turn on us and declare war! They attack Chichén Itza with Mounted Warriors, but our defending Knights bravely fight until the last man, and just barely manage to fend off the attack. :eek: (I wonder what would have happened if the attack would have been a success - would they have burnt Chichén Itza to the ground, with Leonardo's Workshop and all? If so, I would have been *slightly* angry... Mental note for next time: More defense in the cities we cannot afford to lose!) Our counter attack to clean up our land kills many Iroquois units, and we feel a lot safer. We also give Spain 6 gpt to declare war on Iroquois. Down south, we take two more Aztec towns: Teayo and Tlalmanalco.

410 AD - We destroy an Aztec town (I don't remember it's name!).

420 AD - We capture Cempoala. Meanwhile, the Iroquois keep sending Mounted Warriors into our land, and we keep killing them easily with Knights. :)

430 AD - We capture Chalco from the Aztecs, and more importantly Mauch Chunk from the Iroquois, starting our march through their pathetic "civlization".

440 AD - LOL, the Aztecs re-capture the un-defended town of Teayo with a lone Spearman I somehow forgot about!

450 AD - Hittities have been destroyed. We take Centralia and St. Regis from the Iroquois.

460 AD - We capture Ixtapaluca and destroy Teayo: The Aztecs are destroyed! In the north, the Iroquois are being overrun by our superior units. We take Grand River.

480 AD - We take Salamanca, and The Mausoleum of Mausollos!

490 AD - We capture Cattaraugus.

500 AD - We take Niagra Falls, Oil Springs and Allegheny in one glorious turn!

510 AD - We capture the final two Iroquois towns, Tonawanda and Akwesasne, but the Iroquois are not destroyed! The have a Settler in a pesky Galley somewhere...

530 AD - We sink an Iroquois Galley, but it's not enough to destroy them. The hunt goes on...

560 AD - We discover Astronomy. We can now safely get to the island in the north-east, to build a town on top of the Salpeter, and then a Harbor to transport it to the main continent. Of course, we have a Galley waiting, ready to do just that. :)

http://www.ehnstrom.se/roland/diverse/COTM04_salpeter.jpg

570 AD - We attack the final (?) Iroquois Galley with 2 of our Galleys, but it survives!

590 AD - We found Dzibilchaltun on top of the Salpeter. Next turn we'll rush a Harbor.

610 AD - The Salpeter is hooked up and ready to be used! Military Tradition is 4 turns away.

620 AD - The Iroquos have incredible surviving skills. We have found two Galleys of theirs, at least one of which must contain their final Settler. We have attacked these with a total of 3 Galleys and 2 Caravels, but STILL have not sunk either one of them!

630 AD - Chichén Itza completes Sun Tzu's Art of War.

640 AD - It's time to get rid of Spain. We declare war, move in with Elite Knights and a Knight Army, and take Santiago. Down south, we destroy Santander on the former Aztec tundra. Our Knights are also closing in on Zaragoza, on the former Iroquois peninsula.

650 AD - We finally sink the last Iroquois Galley, and they are no more. Tikal completes Sistine Chapel. We discover Military Tradition, and start upgrading any non-elite Knights to Cavalry (we'll keep the Elite Knights to try and get some more Great Leaders). Copán starts Military Academy. Our Knights take Zaragoza.

660 AD - We capture Pamplona.

670 AD - We now control Barcelona.

680 AD - Toledo captured.

690 AD - We steal Madrid, and The Great Library.

700 AD - Capturing Seville, we get our second Great Leader. He immediately builds a Cavalry Army.

710 AD - Our Knight Army takes Murcia, while our new Cavalry Army take Vitoria.

720 AD - We take the final Spanish city, Valencia, but again that's not enough to destroy them. We go Galley-hunting again...

740 AD - We sink the final Spanish Galley with a Privateer. We now are in the unusual situation of being all alone in the world - we have no contacts at all! But we have just discovered Magnetism, so it's time to send some Frigates and Privateers out to explore the world...

http://www.ehnstrom.se/roland/diverse/COTM04_740AD_alone.jpg

760 AD - Contact! Our Privateer runs into a Byzantine Dromon. They are backwards, having only Monarchy to offer us. Our plan now is to fill up Galleon after Galleon with Cavalry and Elite Knights, and send them across the sea to preach the greatness of the glorious Mayan civilization. ;)

http://www.ehnstrom.se/roland/diverse/COTM04_760AD_contact.jpg

770 AD - We make contact with France, the Celts and the Mongols. They are all weak and backwards, with the Celts less weak than the rest. WE DISCOVER THEORY OF GRAVITY AND ENTER THE INDUSTRIAL AGE!

http://www.ehnstrom.se/roland/diverse/COTM04_endMA.jpg

I have already submitted my result, so yes, I qualify for this spoiler thread, even though at the end of MA I had not yet met the Sumerians and had not mapped the coastline of the other continent (what's that good for anyway?).

-- Roland

In the ancient age I fought an unsuccesfull war against the Aztecs (who entered their golden age) only capturing the Aztec capital Tenochtitlan (Which means: 'Where Men Become Gods' if I remeber correctly) while losing a lot of units to hold my cities. I actually was forced to enter a early Golden age of my own to survive this war. So only capturing 1 city we enter the Middle Ages!

We recieve a culture flipping Philidelphia, next to our capital, from the Americans. Meanwhile the Iroquis and sometimes the Spanish and Aztec fight the Americans. America suprisingly holds off hords of Mounted Horsemen (?), the unique Iroquis unit. (I gave the Americans a passage agreement with me so they had a little advantage over the Iroquis in terms of movement)

Soon after that the most powerfull civ, the Aztecs, sneak attack us and after barely fighting of the hordes of Aztec units with Knight we make peace, both countries without capturing 1 city. After this war I decided it was time for the barbaric Aztecs to be finished off. Also had a short war (420AD~470AD) with the Iroquis in a relative peacefull time for my people capturing St. Regis and destroying the Iroquis city of Atlanta near the Maya-Iroquis border at that time.

I finish the Sistine Chapel (660AD) because of the lack of luxuries, hopefully making my people more happy. Settle 2 cities on the remote saltpeter island in 810AD (before actually discovering Gunpowder but I had the feeling it would be an important island with the sea squares leading to it).

Finally start war against the evil and agressive Aztec empire around 1090AD. My goal is the luxuries on their evil lands and possibly the head of their leader. I do not manage to get their spices but the furs are taken in a succesfull war, breaking the Aztec empire in to pieces. (see picture)
During the war long war with the Aztec's (they refuse to sign a peace treaty) I enter the Industrial Age!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/hookmonkeyenteringINDU1.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/hookmonkeyenteringINDU2.jpg

I have already submitted my result, so yes, I qualify for this spoiler thread, even though at the end of MA I had not yet met the Sumerians and had not mapped the coastline of the other continent (what's that good for anyway?).

-- Roland

I just plain forgot to go contact the French, until late on into the IA - I just forgot they were there, and it was a bit of a trek round the coast just to go meet them. *coughs*

For 7 Monarch Civs, including 3 Scientific ones, on a large continent, their tech pace sure was abominabal once they'd gotten into the MA, though (I was selling them Education/Engineering, having just finished Navigation, I also had the bottom tree up to Chemistry).

Neil. :cool:

@Roland Ehnström:
We settled all our core cities on almost the same places! Lol, that's a coincidence.

@Roland Ehnström:
We settled our all our core cities on almost the same places! Lol, that's a coincidence.

Great minds think alike... :D ;)

-- Roland

Open, Industrial Age, 1335 AD

Ancient Age (4000 BC-490 BC) recap: 2159433

I’m getting the hang of managing citizen moods. I only had a few instances of civil disorder, even with two major wars under Republic. One of my biggest successes was discovering the other major continent in 260 AD. My biggest regret is that I did not find the minor continent that the Spanish had settled until I defeated them in war. From there, I’m sure I would have found the other minor continent long before anyone else (I’m sure others did).

Those Middle Age wars eliminated the evil Americans (I declared against them in 720 AD and eliminated them in 870 AD) and drove the Spanish usurpers off my continent (they foolishly declared against me in 1120 AD and signed a peace treaty in 1285 AD, leaving them with two cities).

However, I’ve allowed the Aztecs and the Iroquois to expand to 17 cities each (second to my 43). I have been hesitant to take them on mainly because of concerns about war weariness, even though my military is much stronger than either of them (or anyone else for that matter). In retrospect, I realize that I should have pulverized at least one of them by this point. So now I get to hone my warmongering skills in the Industrial Age.

It’s now 1335 AD. I have been at least two techs ahead of every other civ for quite a while. Looking back, I must have finished researching Democracy about 1160 AD (didn’t make a note of it), but didn’t switch because I knew there were more wars to fight and I was close to finishing Bach’s Cathedral in Chichén Itza and Smith’s Trading Company in Copán. Now that the Aztecs, the Iroquois and the Celts are all under Democracy, I realize I might have made a mistake. They are generating more excess gold than me and I’ve fallen to second in the Annual Income (5 per capita) on the F11 screen. My initial thinking was to go for Communism and then wipe them out.

My main priority right now is researching Steam Power and finding out if I have Coal somewhere. If I don’t, it may tell me where my to deploy my troops. While I would prefer to fight just one civ at a time, I realize that I could wind-up at war with both the Aztecs and the Iroquois at the same time. It’s been in the back of my mind for a while (rightly or wrongly) that I could only succeed in this if I have Railroads in place.

Northern half of Mayan continental empire:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Maya_1335_North.JPG

Southern half of Mayan continental empire:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Maya_1335_South.JPG

Minor continent 1:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Maya_1335_Island1.JPG

Should have been here a lot sooner

Minor continent 2:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Maya_1335_Island2.JPG

About to plant my first settler here.

My stats at 1335 AD:

43 cities, 335 citizens
248 units, including 93 pikemen (I’m defensive-minded), 47 knights, and 10 ships (2 galleons, 6 caravels, 2 galleys)
139 gold in treasury
Income: 1323 gpt (1287 from cities, 30 from taxmen, 6 from other civs)
Fixed expenses: 293 (corruption), 238 (unit support), 140 (building maintenance) gpt
Sliders: 60% science (653 gpt) 10% entertainment (64 gpt)
Steam Power in 7 turns.

Abbreviated Timeline:

250 BC - Dzibilchaltun (17) founded

130 BC - Uxmal (18) founded

70 BC - Abandoned Cuello

50 AD - Began work on Sun Tzu’s Art of War in Chichén Itza

90 AD - Abandoned Uaxactún

260 AD - Suicide galley run succeeded! Met Byzantines

370 AD - Built embassy and established ROP with Byzantines

290 AD - Traded Byzantines Republic for Literature + 1 gold
Met Mongols

310 AD - Built embassy and established ROP with Mongols

400 AD - Met Celts
Completed Sun Tzu’s Art of War in Chichén Itza

440 AD - Met Sumeria

480 AD - Built embassy and established ROP with Celts

520 AD - Built embassy and established ROP with Sumeria

560 AD - Completed Forbidden Palace in Cobá

570 AD - Met Hittites.
Traded them Republic for Monarchy + 319 gold

580 AD - Built embassy and established ROP with Hittites

620 AD - Met Germany

670 AD - Met France

700 AD - Time to take out the Americans. Demanded 25 gold in tribute - they pay it

720 AD - Declared war on the Americans. Decided I wanted help.
MA against Americans with Iroquois. I give Monotheism, they give 30 gold.
MA against Americans with Spanish. I give Chivalry, they give 13 gold.

730 AD - Captured Philadelphia (17) & Houston (18)

750 AD - Captured Boston (19). JT won battle, entered Golden Age.

770 AD - Iroquois captured Miami (their only success in an alliance with me)

790 AD - Captured New York (20) & Atlanta (21)

800 AD - Traded Hittites Theology for Engineering

820 AD - New York flips back to the Americans

830 AD - Captured Washington (21)
Founded Mayapán (22)
Spain captures New York

850 AD - Captured Seattle (23)
Founded Kabáh

860 AD - Captured San Francisco (24)
Aztecs demanded 27 gold in tribute - We paid it

870 AD - Captured Chicago (25). Eliminated Americans

920 AD - Founded Aké (26)

940 AD - Traded Celts Education for Invention + 4 gold

950 AD - Golden Age ends

1020 AD - Traded Iroquois Education for Gunpowder + 21 gold
ainwood’s first “gotcha.” There doesn’t appear to be Salt peter on this continent

1070 AD - Founded Xcalumkin (27), mainly as a way to get troops to Spain more quickly for the imminent invasion

1120 AD - Spain declares war on us, captures Xcalumkin

1130 AD - MA against Spain with Iroquois. I give Music Theory, they give 8 gold.


1140 AD - (Re-)captured New York (27), this time from Spain

1160 AD - Traded Iroquois Banking for Astronomy + 14 gold

1170 AD - Captured Barcelona (28)
Founded Ek Balam (29)
Completed J.S. Bach’s Cathedral in Chichén Itza

1210 AD - Completed Smith’s Trading Company in Copán

1220 AD - Captured Madrid (30)
Founded Tazumal (31)

1250 AD - Captured Toledo (32)
Founded Cozumel (33)

1255 AD - Captured Seville (34)

1260 AD - Iroquois abandoned MA and signed Peace Treaty with Spain. I guess they got tired of throwing their horsies at cities, only to have me capture them

1270 AD - Captured Santiago (35)

1275 AD - Abandoned Kabáh

1280 AD - Captured Mucia (35)

1285 AD - Captured Valencia (36). Spain has been chased off my continent!
Signed Peace Treaty with Spain. Got Vitoria (37), Asturias (38), Jaen (39) + 17 gold.
Founded Uaxactún (40)
Founded New Chichén Itza (41)

While my timeline looks orderly now, I really had no idea how many cities I had at this point, among other things. I was hesitant to beta-test CivAssist during my first GOTM/COTM, but I decided to give it a shot. It was kind of disheartening to see that I would achieve a Cultural 20K victory in 10,336 AD, but it’s been a big help. Thanks ainwood!

According to CivAssist, it seems I actually have 42 cities at this point. Based on my notes, I have no idea what/where tht other city is.

1290 AD - Abandoned Mayapán

1295 AD - Started working on Newton’s University in Copán. (Must have completed Smith’s Trading Company.)

1300 AD - Abandoned Cozumel

1305 AD - (Re-)founded Cuello (41)
Completed Shakespeare’s Theater in Chichén Itza

1310 AD - (Re-)founded Mayapán (42)
Finished researching Magnetism

1315 AD - (Re-)founded Kabáh (43)

Finished researching Metallurgy and entered the Industrial Age!

James

After researching chivalry I upgraded around 30 horsemen to knights and killed all other civs excepting some tundra cities without any real difficulty. Did not build many more knights but instead spent the resources getting some wonders (Sun Tzu and Leonardo's) and building culture to avoid flips.

Went down the track toward MT, but upon finding my poor continent devoid of saltpeter (you wonder how they invented gunpowder without it, but hey :-)) and having terrible luck with suicide galleys (I sent out about six and none of them survived even the first turn, which made me think Ainwood might have done that on purpose to aggrevate the saltpeter shortage - I mean the starting position was too easy :-)) I switched to race for astronomy-magnetism. I should have explored with caravels as I would have found the saltpeter island to the NE, but I decided to wait for magnetism as I was inventing one in 4 or 5 anyway.

After that, I basically ended the game by shipping 40 cavalry to the other continent and doing nothing but building more cavalry, with about 100 of these beasts walking around towards the end, although I did invent nationalism and railroads just to help the war effort and logistics.

Where would like to improve in is the realm of large scale military invasions. Given the difficulty level and starting position I had hoped to finish by conquest/domination in around 500 AD, but only managed to conquer my island by then. Is 500 AD reasonable at all for a map this size? I should maybe have worked with more around 100 knights immediately to get faster conquest speed, although I don't know how I would have gotten the needed tech that quickly. By the end I killed one civ in around 4 turns, which is quite reasonable I think, but the civs on my own continent took around 10 or even 20 turns each. Any general tips (or questions) after reading the above?

Brief timeline:

10 AD: aztecs almost killed, preparing for the US to go next (like a good european ;-)). 26 cities, 25 knights, not inventing (need money to upgrade 3 more horsemen). GNP/MFG: 434/123. 5 cities have library, all cities have ToA temple (kindly provided by our aztec brethren)

300 AD: Americans killed, just started spanish. 42 cities, 26 knights. 8 cities have library, all cities have ToA temple. Just invented gunpowder and noticed saltpeter lack. GNP/MFG: 658/184

400 AD: Spanish killed, preparing to kill iroquois. 53 cities, 25 knights; 13 cities have temple + library. Inventing astronomy. GNP/MFG: 895/222

600 AD: Continent is mine, just explored magnetism and built galleons to find saltpeter, cities are still improving themselves in expectation of big knights/cavalry rush. 65 cities, 17 knights. 9 cities have tem, lib + univ or cath or wonder, 14 more cities have tm+lib, and 10 more have either of those.GNP/MFG: 1102/252

770 AD: just landed on byzantine coast, 38 cavalry, 9 knights (tbu), 10 galleons

830 AD: Byzantines killed, French will be next. 50 cav, 13 gal.

870 AD: French killed, Germans to go next. 57 cavalry

910 AD: Germans more or less killed, rest of the continent was kind enough to declare war on me so have good neg. war weariness (useful for a republican hawk :-)). 75 cavalry (3 armies), just opened a southern front against celts, mongols and sumerians next to my northern front against hittites, german remains and celts. I'm very much at war now :-).

960 AD: Hittites and mongols more or less dead. Convinced the sumerians to help me against the celts so I have only one war going at the moment, fortunately with two fronts. 89 cavalry

1010 AD: Celts dead, Sumerians to go next and last. 94 cavalry (stopped building them since the war is over anyway)

1060 AD: Sumerians dead, game should have been over... Only I didn't build any temples to trigger domination (I didn't know that in C3C your build orders are reset after going for war-time economics) and there is an annoying little city on a one-tile island so I can't get conquest unless I discover marines first. Instead I finished in 1110 AD.

1060 AD: Sumerians dead, game should have been over... Only I didn't build any temples to trigger domination (I didn't know that in C3C your build orders are reset after going for war-time economics) and there is an annoying little city on a one-tile island so I can't get conquest unless I discover marines first. Instead I finished in 1110 AD.

Remember, the best way to handle these annoying little island is to make peace and get the island as part of the treaty. On the next turn, resume your war.

Sure it screws your relationships, but if your goal is conquest...who cares.

Remember, the best way to handle these annoying little island is to make peace and get the island as part of the treaty. On the next turn, resume your war.

Sure it screws your relationships, but if your goal is conquest...who cares.

Just make sure you do it before island city becomes the capital :)

I don't know if this question belongs here, but it's been bugging me for a while. How is it that you can reach a conquest victory without triggering a domination victory along the way? I didn't understand that comment about not building any temples in vanatteveldt's post above. It will affect my strategy (or lack thereof) for the rest of this game.

Well, Middle Ages were the constant wars to clean my continent of all AIs...
which is I did using knights by around 1100ADs....

I didn't do any sea explorations and when I researched Gunpowder and realized I don't have any salpenter on continent i decided to start researching towards navigation instead of MT first...

I really wasted lots and I mean LOTS of turns in this game by having fun playing instead going to the quick victory....

I was distracted and lost centuries simply by trying to keep my reputation. I don't know why i did it, while I was playing i did understand I didn't need any reputation to win that game, but i just wanted to be a nice guy... So i waited in several occasions for trade aggreements to expire before i kill that or the other AI... I have to get rid of this bad habit...
Another mistake in this game i was distracted by wonder building, I missed only 2 wonders of AA - SunTzu and simply because i wanted AI from remote continent to build for me to provide with ready barracks in every city i will capture on that land and Copernicus i simply didn't care about. The rest of Wonders I built I really didn't need with the exception of Leo, so i think that was another major distraction i had.

Also, I'd like to comment on very, extremely slow research on
another continent...
I didn't contact second continent until after i researched Navigation and then Magnetism. But I could say how slow those folks were by simply tracking wonder building process. Hittites built SunTzu when i finished Leo, Sistine, Bachs and was building ST.

They must have had lots of wars on that land with such a slow research...

Another yet major mistake I made - signed a trade agreement with hittites and Hittites were the civilization i wanted to strike 1st since they had source of salpenter close to sea shore and one of the quickest sea routes from my soil... So saving my stupid reputation I kept armada of galleons with 100+ knights for TWELTH TURNS next to the hittites sea shore waiting for agreement to expire... That's how i entered Industrial age somewhere between 1200 and 1300AD (i am at work so don't have exact dates at the moment). I have certainly had fun, but also made major mistakes than extended my game for at least couple of centuries.

Open
This could have been quite a good game for me. I conquered the home continent in good time and had 80-90 horsemen ready to go. I finally made contact around 700 AD and was expecting a research boost from the GL which I didn't get. The AIs had been fighting and were suprisingly backward.

As I made first contact on far side of the new continent I had no idea where the crossing point was. I had to assume that there wasn't one and that I needed navigation to cross over - given that I was researching fuedalism at this time I had a way to go :cry:

I finally found the crossing point in around 1000 AD. I should really have been more proactive in sending out galleys - until I read this thread I had no idea that the salt-peter island existed either. I never found it.

I decided to wait till I got navigation and I sent over 100 knights - the same guys who had been cooling their heels for 400 years and let them unleash some of their pent up aggression on the byzantines. The byzantines fell quickly in a matter of five or six turns. I then went after the mongols who actually put up quite a fight with their keshiks. I then took out the French, then Germans and then I attacked the Hittites which took me over the domination limit in a very ponderous date of 1365 AD.

I played the early part of the game well. But some poor decisions on my part really blew this game - not sending out enough galleys and critically relying on the AI to do my research were foremost.

Firaxis score: 6826 Jason score: 8924 Meh!

Predator
Ancient Age (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2158902&postcount=7)

With the pyramids already built by Sumeria in AA 750BC, I had decided that this game will also not have a peaceful finish.
Then I also lost on the Lighthouse built by Hittites in 710BC.
It didn't look good for a fast finish, so I decided to built up for a decent score on the home continent first.
I completed ToA in 510BC and settled to grab as much territory as possible.
When no easy accessible open spots were available anymore I started to eliminate the enemies. I did research to MT in the meantime, but had no saltpeter and no chance to get some, because I stopped research to keep ToA while filling the continent.
I took the american cities by 370BC, but they respawned in the south and were later taken out by the Aztecs.
It took to 320AD to finish the Iroquois.
Aztecs were left with 3 Tundra cities in 420AD, when I switched to Spain because of WW.
By 510 AD I had the complete continent, but continued to settle for more territory.

I had contact to Byzantines and French since 250AD by the fifth or sixth suicide galley (which then was sunk by barbs :cry: ).
I had traded-gifted them into MA and Monotheism in the hope they will research something useful. And in fact I could buy education and astronomy from France around 600AD.
I quickly researched navigation and loaded my knights for the assault on the other continent.
I did not find the saltpeter island until much later, so I was going for a salt source on the other continent.
I took out first the Byzantines with knights. That was finished in 740AD and opened the path to the Mongol saltpeter.
Mongols had only one city left so they were out of the game by 750AD and I could finally hook the salt and upgrade the knights to cavalry for the finish.
Then I made up two fronts attacking France and Celts at the same time.
In 840AD I took the last continental french city, but they respawned on the northern tundra island.
So I gave them peace and attacked Germany while still progressing with the Celts.
The Germans were no match for my army so they were elimated already in 880AD.
When the Celts were out in 890AD I took on Sumeria and Hittites.
At the same time an expedition force was heading to the tundra island to go for the French and the Hittite settlements there.
The French did again their respawn trick, but in 960AD I could achieve a conquest victory.

@LuuCKyJaa
To achieve conquest you have to look to not control more than 66% of the territory.
If you are near just don't capture any cities, but raze them.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif (predator)

Link to Ancient Age spoiler (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2170325&postcount=100)

Early Middle Ages

On entering the Middle Ages in 750BC I was a bit past half way through my Golden Age. I was in a builder phase, working on a few wonders, a lot of libraries, and on research and exploration.

In 730BC I completed the Pyramids and the same city began a prebuild for Hanging Gardens. In 670BC I completed Forbidden Palace, and in 570BC I completed the Great Lighthouse. Two ancient wonders! That's two more than I've hand built in a very long time.

I sent one curragh on a suicide run. It sank almost immediately. Upon completing the Great Lighthouse I immediately sent some galleys. Even with the Lighthouse I didn't have great success. I lost a few galleys (didn't count, should have but I wasn't expecting many losses at that stage) and eventually reached the other continent in 470BC.

I met the other Civs fairly quickly after first contact. They were initially far behind me in tech. By the time I met them I had already researched Monotheism and Feudalism. Nonetheless I gifted the three scientific remote Civs to the Middle Ages as I met them, hoping that one would get Engineering as their free tech. No luck, they each got a redundant free tech. I also gifted Republic to each remote Civ to improve their economies.

The remote Civs provided a bit of useful income through tech trading but not a lot - they remained sluggish and unable to pay much throughout the Middle Ages.

My early Middle Ages research was directly to Chivalry. I expected that Knights would be able to easily take over the home continent. I learned Monotheism in 630BC (6 turns), Feudalism in 530BC (5 turns), and Chivalry in 430BC (5 turns.)

During this phase my core towns built libraries and then barracks and horsemen.

Taking the Continent

When I learned Chivalry in 430BC I had 16 horsemen ready to upgrade but had almost no funds available. I turned off research, began upgrading, and also began building Knights.

In 330BC I had 14 Knights and began war on the Aztecs. After taking their Great Wall city progress was swift. In 130BC I gave them peace for four of their remaining five tundra towns. I had 22 Knights at that date:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sirplebc04-2a.jpg

In 30AD I went to war with America. In 130AD I took their last town but they remained in the game. I rushed a couple of galleys and in 150AD destroyed an American galley, eliminating them from the game. I had 25 Knights at that date:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sirplebc04-2b.jpg

In 170AD I went to war with Spain and in 310AD eliminated them from the game. I had 24 Knights at that date:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sirplebc04-2c.jpg

In 330AD I went to war with Iroquois and in 470AD eliminated them. I had 21 Knights at that date:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sirplebc04-2d.jpg

I had poor leader luck for a long time in these wars. Despite having many elite Knights in action my first leader didn't appear until 350AD in the last war. And suddenly leaders became common. I got two more during the war on Iroquois. I used the first one for a Knight army, the second to rush Heroic Epic, and the third for another army.

I waited a while to eliminate the Aztecs. They had a galley wandering around while I fought the other wars, presumably carrying a settler to various locations as they seemed available. After I filled in all captured land that galley returned home. In 610AD I declared war and eliminated the Aztecs. This brief war produced a fourth leader. I used him to rush a university.

I didn't expect more warfare in the game so sold all my barracks after the Iroquois war, and after eliminating the Aztecs I disbanded about 1/2 of my remaining troops, scattering the rest around the continent in case of invasions later on.

Research

After learning Chivalry I turned off research so that funds could be used to upgrade Horsemen and then to rush builds. There was a lot of construction to be hurried - settlers to fill in claimed territory and lots of libraries.

Eventually I started researching again. I wanted Theology and Education to build Universities and Cathedrals, and Music Theory to build JS Bach's. I learned Theology in 280AD, Education in 320AD, and Music Theory in 360AD.

In hindsight I think I'd have gained by building Temple of Artemis. At the time I learned Education I had 81 cities and just 11 temples. I hadn't expected to be that late learning Education.

After Music Theory I turned research off again for a while, using cash to rush libraries. I traded for Engineering and Invention when Civs on the other continent learned them.

In 560AD I decided to start research again, going for Replaceable Parts to see how much value I could gain from Conquests' Civil Engineers in a 100K culture game. Along the way I'd get some other useful techs: Magnetism would enable trading for the other continent's luxuries; Steam Power would increase my population and production.

To reduce my research cost (and thus enable more ongoing rushing of libraries in corrupt towns) I began a program of converting all unhappy citizens in corrupt towns to scientists. The Conquests scientists are very useful at three beakers/turn.

I maintained a four turn tech rate learning Banking in 600AD, Astronomy in 640, Gunpowder in 670 (traded for it when a remote Civ learned it one turn before my research completed), Chemistry in 710, Physics in 750, Magnetism in 790, Theory of Gravity in 830, and Metallurgy in 870AD to enter the Industrial Age at that date.

Growth and Culture

Throughout all this my top priority has been to settle lots of towns and to then build libraries and temples in them. The main purpose of wars has been to gain new land which I can fill.

As I take over new land I fill it with towns. Whereever there's room for another town in a corrupt region, as soon as the population in a nearby town is large enough I rush a settler and use it to fill in.

Each new town first works on a library. Libraries give the most culture/turn/shield of any improvement, and have the lowest maintenance cost for their culture/turn. Even though corrupt towns produce just one shield/turn when you get a few hundred of them it adds up to a lot of production.

As funds become available I rush libraries to completion. I rush the ones closest to completion first so that I can get the maximum number of new libraries each turn.

After having its library rushed each corrupt town begins a temple. I won't rush any of these temples to completion until all libraries are done. This keeps each town contributing one shield/turn toward something useful.

I discovered the north-central island early in my exploration of the seas. I sent a few settlers there in the early Middle Ages along with a couple of horsemen to handle barbarians. The first settler founded a town there in 350BC. By 90AD I controlled all of that island. The other Civs hadn't even approached it. My holdings there eventually grew to 17 towns.

I built a few more wonders during the Middle Ages: Hanging Gardens, JS Bach's, and Sistine Chapel. I generally don't build Sistine Chapel but in this game it was useful - since luxuries were rare and my core cities had built Cathedrals anyway for culture, the Sistine Chapel was an easy way to improve happiness.

In 780AD, one turn before I learned Magnetism, I was able to trade with the Celts for Navigation. I was dismayed to find that none of the remote Civs had a single luxury available for trade with me. I think they'd been too busy trading among themselves.

At the same date I traded for maps. I was surprised to see that there was just one town so far on the far northeast island. I immediately rushed a few galleons filled with settlers to try to claim most of that island. Might as well take more land to have more towns for cultural improvements and to increase score. At the end of the Middle Ages I have five towns there and my rivals have three. I have a few more settlers ready to claim land there but there are many barbarians which must be dealt with first.

Some culture reference points in my Middle Ages:

date culture c/turn
750BC 298 +30
10AD 2663 +109
300AD 5476 +220
600AD 15747 +501
870AD 34226 +863


My world at the end of the Middle Ages, 870AD:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sirplebc04-2e.jpg

First post ever, this is about the 5th OTM I've played, and the forum has been a great help, though I still can't bother to micromanage once the settler factory is done.

I played open for this one, and concentrated on expanding quickly, not building jt's, and building as many chariots and horsemen as I can. My plan was to build a massive army, get to chivalry quick, upgrade, start my ga and roll over everyone.

Probably could have gotten a couple more cities before 1000BC, but I wanted to build some culture in the capital and begin the horsemen army.

QSC stats:
13 cities
36 citizens
11 workers
4 javelin throwers
11 warriors
Didn't go for the Republic slingshot, so I still need it and Cons, Curr, MM, Poly, and Horseback Riding.
1 Granary
5 Temples
2 Barracks
Iron, horses and 2 lux connected

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/screenshot.jpeg

After 1000BC, it all went as planned, Boston flipped to me, noone demanded anything too expensive for tribute, and I was quickly into the next age. I didn't make a log, so I can't quite remember when the romp started, but as soon as I hit chivalry (Yanks had feudalism, but noone else), I turned off the tech slider, and made money to upgrade an army of atleast 50 or 60 horsemen to knights. Americans went down quickly (and I started my GA), then Spain, then I split my armies, ready for the Aztecs to declare, which they did, just before I declared on the Iroquois. I slogged a bit through both, but gained a couple of GL's, one which rushed FP near the Iroquois lands, the other used for a Knight army.

Once I had the continent, it was rush to Navigation, I hadn't really bothered sending out suicide galleys (just one, no luck).

By that point, my army had about 90 or 100 knights. Once Navigation came, I settled the gunpowder island and started moving as many troops there as I could manage, then waited for Galleons to invade. I took out the Byzantines quickly, got Military Tradition and upgraded everything.

By this time, research was completely shut off, and I was using the money to buy some temples and libraries for culture, but mostly to buy settlers from captured cities, so I could claim all the land without needing the more expensive option of buying the culture expansion. Then I moved East, staying away from the Celts, who were big), and conquered France? (I can't remember), then Hittites and Germany, and took the northern island.

I had been a cultural powerhouse from the beginning, so I wasn't worried about flipping, and rarely left troops in any cities once they had stopped resisting. None flipped, luckily.

I started a war with the Celts, just needed a few cities for a Domination win in 1110 AD.
Firaxis: 6095
Jason: 9168

My best showing yet. Didn't get to research a single IA tech, although the invasion probably would have gone quicker if I could have researched steam power and developed railroads, but there was still a lot of jungle to mess about with.

I have a question, do players find their Jason score is better whe they expand culture in captured lands (whether by settlers or by libraries and temples), in order to get a quicker domination win, or is the conquest score so much better that its worth the extra years it takes to get there?

My biggest dissapointment with this game was after winning a domination victory (at approximately the start of the AI, around 1200, maybe a little earlier), the guy with the hammer did not appear to ring the bell. I don't know why (first time I've completed a GOTM), and the game did not show up on my hall of fame, where it would have been highest (tho I surpassed it on a regular emporer level epic game last week).

I dont have a timeline, just wanted to comment on a couple things I did badly and one thing I thought I handled well. My biggest problem was I didnt start the suicide galleys early enough, and sat around for quite a bit after taking over my continent. When I did find the other folks, the Celts appeared to be on a roll, worrying me about my eventual invasion. I was comfortably ahead in techs despite being in a monarchy from the first government switch, so I declared on the Celts and got everyone else to join me. That war never actually stopped--it was a pretty fair, everyone vs. the Celts, until I rushed astronomy to start getting boats over there. I thought it worked out very well for me.

I didnt find "gunpowder" island till late, so I first secured some gunpowder on the other continent; upgraded to cavalry, and took out the Mongols, the Celts, the hittites ( i think that was them, cant recall), then got the domination while on the Germans. I probably could have done it quicker if I'd attacked the Byzentines, but Theodora is too cute, so I just got an ROP with her and let her be.

But I think played well, but --not enough boats-. I needed way more boats to get my army over there and for exploring. Thats probably my biggest problem with the game (other than no bell guy).

My biggest dissapointment with this game was after winning a domination victory (at approximately the start of the AI, around 1200, maybe a little earlier), the guy with the hammer did not appear to ring the bell. I don't know why (first time I've completed a GOTM), and the game did not show up on my hall of fame, where it would have been highest

It's because the game was loaded from an initial save which was modified (by Ainwood) in the editor. Or something like that. Incidentally, my final result in this COTM would also have been on top of my personal hall of fame. :) Does anyone know if it's possible to hack the hall of fame somehow?

-- Roland

As Smoke-Jaguar sat in the vestibule of the Temple of Artemis in Chichen Itza, he thought, “This new building is the beginning of a long series of Mayan culture achievements. I will still go to back to the stars, but first I will need to tame this continent.” The war with the Aztecs had gone well. The proud Aztec people had fought bravely defending the first three cities and had destroyed their cites before joining the Mayan Republic. As his troops moved on to the next cities, he had gotten word that the Aztec ambassador was coming to his palace to negotiate a peace settlement.

The three cities ceded by the Aztec Empire would provide a link to the fur supplies that the Mayan women seemed to covet so highly. Smoke was pleased that his people were once again celebrating the benefits of peace. Word from his American Ambassador of the completion of a large granary structure in the American capital, convinced him that once the Aztecs were subdued, his forces would begin moving north.

The sunset viewed from within the newly opened Hanging Gardens of Copan, offered a serene ending of another day for Smoke. His week was quite busy with the dedication of the new Forbidden Palace yesterday and the opening ceremony for the Art of War Academy tomorrow. He relaxed and enjoyed the peaceful ending of another day. His relaxation was short-lived as his Minister of Science tapped his shoulder to gain his attention. “Sorry to disturb you sir, but I have bad news. Those new weapons we’ve created that require saltpeter are complete, but we seem to have no access in any of our lands to the precious mineral. Our scouts have checked all of the known lands and by the power of Ainwood, there appears to be no available sources. “ This was very disappointing to Smoke, he had really hoped to be able to use these weapons in the upcoming battles. “I guess we’ll need to train our armored troops to ride horses,” he answered. “For now, the troops we have should be enough for the remains of the Aztec Empire. I need an immediate consul meeting with all my advisors. Have the aids prepare the southern border maps for our discussions.”

“Ladies and Gentlemen, our neighbors to the south continue to breech our borders with obsolete military units. I propose we end this antagonism once and for all. Any objections? Good, now I want this to be a quick and decisive war, General Grahamiam, begin your planning. I’ll be leaving next week to dedicate the Great Library opening and when I return, I want positive news.

Positive news it was that Smoke received. Five cities had fallen to the Mayan war machine and no casualties had befallen the brave attackers. With the ceding of three cities for peace, the Aztec nation was reduced to a single tundra city and Smoke knew that in time that would be gone.

“Land, they’ve finally found land.” The Lucky Seven galley sailed into the Byzantine port and was greeted by the lovely Theodora. While no gains we’re made by this contact, the Lucky Seven began to circle the new continent meeting the other tribes who inhabited the lands.

At the dedication ceremony for the Knights Templar academy, Smoke managed to isolate General Grahamiam. “With the Aztecs on life-support, I think it’s time we turned our attentions north. The Americans have no horses, so our newly christened knight troops should be the able to move to a quick victory.” And so they did in the 100 years of the war, 11 American cities fell with little resistance to the brave Mayan troops. As the war was winding down, the peace treaty with the Aztecs expired and shortly thereafter Montezuma was exiled to a quiet, dark room in the Mayan capital. With 11 American cities now part of the Mayan Republic, Smoke reluctantly accepted peace with America their northern city of Detroit, leaving them temporarily with a single city. This new city of Detroit came with a surprise, 22 barbarian horsemen next door. Unwilling to cede his treasury to the barbarian horde, Smoke went on a spending spree to build embassies in all of the other continents capitals. With the remainder of his treasury, he added some new infrastructure to his new acquisitions.

The first barbarian horseman carried off 6 gold pieces and the second destroyed the work on a new harbor, the other twenty rode to their deaths for nothing. With America reduced to a single city and the Aztecs a memory only, the Mayan troops began staging for Spain.

The conquest of Spain will be but a couple of paragraphs in the Mayan history books. Without iron, the Spanish spearmen were unable to slow the Mayan knights and in seventy years Isabella was relocated to the same hall as Montezuma. Just to clean a little house, the final American city was captured as the peace treaty expired and Abe joined Isabella and Montezuma to wait for Hiawatha so they’d finally have enough for bridge.

The year 940 AD was quite a memorable one for Smoke Jaguar, the discovery of Education had ended his peoples belief in Artemis which now required him to have temples and cathedrals built to keep them happy and the Great Library of Quirigua no longer was considered by the world to be the place where knowledge would be cataloged, though his scientists had not gotten anything of value from the building, it had been a safeguard against discovering the other continent to be of an advanced technology state. He decided to take out his anger on his only remaining neighbor, the Iroquois. The first three Iroquois cites fell with limited losses. The next two cities were larger and better defended and Smoke lost too many knights to the Iroquois pikemen and the counterattacking mounted warriors. Soon the populace demanded peace and being a thoughtful ruler he abided by their wishes for a tribute from the Iroquois treasury.

With just six Iroquois cities left, Smoke called in his military commander. “General, I understand the troops are rested and in position to complete this campaign of continental conquest. We will be breaking our treaty with them and they must not be allowed to inform the world of our treachery. This must be a quick and decisive war, do you understand?” he asked. “Yes, sir, it’ll be over before the demonstrators can assemble” was his reply. And true to his word, the war was quick and causality free. At the battle for the Iroquois Capital, an Elite Swordsman’s bravery was awarded with the first Great Leader of the Mayan Republic. He rushed to Niagara Falls to form the First Crusader Army and before the new army could leave the city, an Elite Knight’s victory produced Eighteen Rabbits, the second Great Leader of the Mayan Republic. He entered Salamanca and formed the Second Crusader Army. These two Crusader Armies led the Mayan knights to quick victories over the outclassed Iroquois defenders and in the battle for Centralia Caucus Sky, the third Great Leader was born and soon Hiawatha was dealing the cards to the other disposed leaders.

The next one hundred years were very peaceful in the Mayan Republic. Celebrations for the Heroic Epic in Kaminaljuyu, Smith’s Trading Post in Quirigua, Copernicus’ Observatory in Tikal, JS Bach’s Cathedral in Chichen Itza and thanks to the hard work of Caucus Sky, in 1240 AD, the Military Academy in Chichen Itza was completed as the Mayans discovered Magnetism and entered the Industrial Age.

Smoke Jaguar sat on the third floor terrace of his recently improved palace and thought of the past with all of the magical discoveries and great victories and looked to the future. The entire continent was united under the flag of the Mayan Republic; his people were far ahead of the other continent in technology and production. Soon an expeditionary force of crusaders and knights would be landing in the lands once held by Theodora and currently in the hands of the Celtic Monarchy. There were luxuries and resources that the other continent had that would be needed for the journey to the stars. Smoke knew he had another chapter to write before that journey could begin, but the past had provided him with the power and wealth to achieve that goal.

Roland & Felton: The HOF file is a .txt file and can be easily edited using notepad (for MS Windows users).

LOL, I didn't think it was that easy. :blush: Thanks! :king:
-- Roland

[c3c] 1.22f - Open Class

I was still in my GA at the end of the Ancient Age (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2162015&postcount=32) in 370BC.

Middle Ages

I continued to build up horsemen and a few swordsmen during my GA. On the last turn of my GA in 290BC, I declared war on the Aztecs again.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/dsv_c04_290bc.JPG

At that point, I had 14 Horse, 9 Swords, and 3 JT. (I really didn't get many slaves with the JT.) I used roughly 2/3 of my units to attack. Keeping the rest on my northern border with America. In my first elite battle of the war, I got my first MGL. I created an army and saved it for later. In 70BC, I auto-razed the last Aztec city. I was able to capture the other 3. Of course, they respawn further south in the tundra below the furs. I went ahead and made peace. I was able to get a settler next to the northern-most furs, getting my 3rd lux. I moved most of my horse north and began to fill in the southern area. Most of cities along the mountain chain and just south of it were pretty productive (only about 50% corrupt) the whole game.

Researching Chivalry was my priority. Somewhere along the way I messed up with the F6. Two turns from completing Feudalism, I clicked instead Shift-Clicked on Chivalry. At time, I didn't even notice. Needless to say I was a little disappointed when I finished Monotheism to find myself researching Feudalism again. I wasted about 8 turns on that.

In 130AD, I got tired of chasing off, blocking and otherwise doing everything I could to keep the other civs from walking through my territory to settle in the south. With Chivalry one turn away, I kicked off my war with American. I quick snapped up a stack with 4 settlers that was try to move through my core and got another one protected by a horsemen on the border.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/dsv_c04_130ad.JPG

I had 21 horse and 11 Med Inf, but I started upgrade the horse to knights as quickly as I could afford. I cut research from 50-60% to 10% for about five turns to fund the upgrades. I was way ahead of the local civs, so self research was the only way.

After Chivalry, I decided to research Theology to get Sistine before working the bottom of the research toward MT. This was my first diversion from the Conquest/Dom track.

The war with American fairly brief. I decided to entice Spain and Iroquois into the war in the hopes of diminishing their forces for later. The Iroquois got a couple cities in the northwest while I got the rest. In 310AD, I captured the last American city and they respawned in the tundra down south. I made peace. By this time, I had 33 Knights and still had 10 Med Inf.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/dsv_c04_310ad.JPG

After a 4 turn consolidation, I was ready to move against the Iroquois. The had a bunch of Mounted Warriors so I want to knock them out quickly. During the break I decided to use my up-to-now empty army. I added 3 veteran knights. I got a second MGL in 380AD and formed a second knight army.

In 430AD, I parked a wounded army in St. Regis. I was using Dianthus's MapStat. I checked the flip chance. St. Regis was at about 0.7% chance of flip. I had captured the city a few turns earlier and it never flipped with a knight there. As soon as I parked the army it flips. I swear the program must looks for armies. :mad:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/dsv_c04_430ad.JPG

Anyway, in 500AD, I captured the last couple of Iroquois cities including the capitol and got my 3rd MGL which I used to replace the one I lost. They didn't respawn nor were they eliminated. They had had a couple galleys off my west coast that I had been trying to destroy. The last one was red-lined. The following turn I sunk it and ended the Iroquois. By this time, with the Aztecs and Americans respawned there and 3 Spanish colonies there was no more room in the southern tundra. No respawn.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/dsv_c04_510ad.JPG

After another short pause to reposition, I started the final push to clear the continent. I started by DoW on the Aztecs and Americans in 570AD. I eliminated the Aztecs in 610AD and started my invasion of Spanish territory in the north. In 620AD, I got my 4th MG which formed another army. The Americans were eliminated in 650AD. I got my 5th MGL in 690AD. I used him to build the Pentagon. I captured the last Spanish city in 720AD. Once again they weren't eliminated! It took my until 750AD to find and destroy their galley.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/dsv_c04_720ad.JPG

Research:

Sometime after 470AD, when I finished gunpowder and was working on Chemistry, I realized that they was no Saltpeter! Time for a little re-thinking of my research priorities. Once I completed Chemistry, I would go for astronomy asap. Once again I had diverged from the pure conquest/Dom path by researching Ed, Astronomy, Music Theory, Banking, Navigation, Economics. I wanted the wonders and the commerce bonuses. I would go back and get Metallurgy and MT before finishing the MA techs with Physics, Magnetism and finally ToG . I would get the rest through trades or pointy stick diplomacy.

Exploration:

I lost more than a dozen suicide galleys trying to find the other Civs. In 710AD, a Caravel found the Mongols and Byzantines. I started to explore the coast and trade for contacts. I Researched Navigation in 780AD and got around to trading for map around 800AD. I had contact with everyone expect the Hittites who only had 3 cities on the inner sea. I got contact them after I got the maps. I never gave them mine. They were barely into the MA.

End of the MA:

I spent the remainder of the MA researching and building infrastructure. I found the Saltpeter island and colonized it and built harbors to connect the saltpeter. At then end of the MA I have converted half my Knights to Cavalry and was building Galleons in preparation for the invasion of the other continent. I discovered ToG in 1020AD.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/dsv_c04_1020ad.JPG

Wonders:
1600BC Colossus (Hittites)
1400BC Oracle (America)
900BC Pyramids (Aztecs)
590BC Temple of Artemis (Sumerians)
570BC Great Lighthouse (Germans)
310BC Great Library (Maya)
150BC Mausoleum of Mausolous (Germans)
50BC Great Wall (Maya)
50BC Statue of Zeus (Sumerians)
90AD Hanging Gardens (Mongols)
410AD Sun Tzu (Maya)
440AD Knights Templar (Maya)
520AD Sistine Chapel (Maya)
650AD Leo's Workshop (Maya)
770AD Copernicus' Observatory (Maya)
870AD JS Bach's Cathedral (Maya)
950AD Magellan’s Voyage (Maya)

3 turns to go on Smith's Trading Company and 12 turn on military academy in 1020AD. (Forbidden Palace, Heroic Epic, and Pentagon already built.)

Firaxis score 2395 - 34% land - 58% pop - Culture 11413 vs., Sumerian @ 10271.

By the end of the MA, I had pretty much decided to go for the Histograph victory. Trying to improve upon the bungled GOTM34 attempt. Of course, I now see that Kuningas is going for Histograph as well. It is a good thing I don't have high expectations, isn't it?

SirPleb,

Very impressive game and strategy. As a newbie, I appreciate that you take the time to share your strategy, etc. here in the forum.

Being well into a comparatively late IA and still lacking direction, I have a question. When do you determine what you expect to be your winning strategy? I noticed that you had Histographic victory in COTM 02, a Domination victory in COTM 03 and are going for a Cultural 100K victory here. These are obviously very different victory strategies.

I would also like to hear from others who had determined their victory goal by the end of the MA as to when/how they decided. I would particularly like to hear from those who completed their game in the MA. Do you always go for a Domination/Conquest victory, or did you decide based on certain conditions?

James

It it 670 AD. Technically, I don't qualify for this forum. Pathetically, I have only just received the first 3 techs of MA. However, I no longer qualify to submit my results, as I had to replay between 460 AD and 590 AD, due to “Invalid save file” error on my save-game (and all auto-saves) (my own fault, I thought I had 1.1 Gb free of disc space... I had 1.1 Mb free...). In truth, I doubt I will ever finish the game. I have discovered something with this game. Micro-management of large number of units BORES THE HELL OUT OF ME!

(Note: The worst part is, in those replayed turns, I didn't do nearly as well. Because I was rushing through them, I screwed up on a lot of worker micro-management. My combat roles weren't as good, and I lost several elite units that I didn't the first time. Worst of all... I screwed up on a unit move the first time... which payed off very nicely as a lone JT held off attacks of 5-6 AI units... producing an extra Great Leader for me)

(Side note: How the hell hard can it be, so that if you select a unit in a stack, the next unit selected continues to be of the same stack? Having the computer constantly jump me around the world as I try to deal with units from a certain stack drives me nuts)

As much as I respect those who squeeze every gold & shield out of their cities, I find this to very tedious and not how I wish to spend my leisure time. It reminds me far to much of doing boring math homework. There are many (great) players who dislike the randomness areas of the game, be it settlers from huts, or Scientific leaders. I like the randomness. I love it when I get lucky and 'win' something early, and I love the challenge of great plans going amiss, and having to re-plan and re-work my strategies. There are certainly many players who will agree with me that an easy win is no fun at all. I think this is what bores me the most about this particular game. Despite going to war simultaneously with all four of the civs sharing my continent, not once did I ever feel a single city was even threatened.

I think it is safe to say that I pushed Enslaving pretty darn far. I have hundreds of slaves now.

My conclusion is that the Javelin Thrower is just not worth it, though perhaps for slightly different reasons then most people might first guess. In the last forum, I brought up several ideas about the use of JTs.

Lets deal with the technology race first. Obviously a 2/2/1 unit is not going to fare well vs pikemen and beyond, so logically, to be of much use, you would have to stay in Ancient times; going against the the proven strategy of getting tech as fast as possible. However, the Mayans are unique with the ability to Enslave, so one could theorize that they may also be unique in the desire to slow down the tech race. I think few have ever seriously considered what slowing down the tech race could do. Outside of the Mayans, why would you? Most players like to get a tech lead, and then sell the techs to other civs, having multiple beneficial effects, including that of allowing the player to continue researching at a high speed, and hurting the AI's economy, slowing down their research. Interestingly enough, while still in Ancient times, once the AI has discovered The Republic, constant war is also a very effective way of slowing their research. War weariness and constant troops grinds their economy to minimum. Is this an effective tactic? I'm not sure. I don't think it worked well with my game, but its within the realm of possibility that others may be able to use it to their advantage in other games.

The main drawback of the JT is speed. A movement of 2 allows you to take cities approximately 2/3 quicker. When you are just planning a one or two city raid skirmish, that doesn't matter much, but when you are planning a conquest of an entire civ, that means you can be capturing their last city 5, 10, 20 or even more turns earlier. This applies not just to JTs, but to archers, swordsmen, etc, and even catapults, etc. The need for speed becomes brutally apparent in this game, where we are playing on a large map, and many cities are 4-5+ squares aways. Yes, you'll loose more units without artillery support units (catapults, etc), but I think this is made up for by the extra turns of production from the captured city (especially when compared in ratio to the AI loss of not having those city.) As fun as catapulting AI units down to red, and safely taking them without a unit loss of your own, is, I think I'd much rather trade (lose) 2-6 fast units, and have the city that produced the enemy units instead.

The early tech race isn't about getting tech, its about getting Knights (and/or Cavalry). Knights are what really allow you to take a civ or two, which in turn help guarantee your success.


The Slaves. I think a lot of players fail to produce enough workers early on, and therefore undervalue slaves early on. However, my feeling is that slaves loose their value later on into the game. Once you have expanded your empire, and moved out of despotism, it is very easy to turn a few high corruption cities on the empires outskirts into effective worker farms, with little economic loss. Before the steam engined is invented, many players can often have plenty of workers with nothing left to do except stand around practicing their singing of “Working on the rail road all day long...”


I did learn several things from this game though. As typical for me, from my mistakes.

Mistake #1:
If you are going to use 1 movement troops for war campaigns, might as well bring along plenty of artillery units.
Even if you screw up a bit, artillery aren't in danger of being destroyed. A 'lost' stack can generally be captured back the next round. That means their production shields are never lost, for which I think there may be a significant advantage somewhere.

Movement of 2+ units are much better for war campaigns!

Mistake #2:
If you have Horses, you don't want/need iron. I made the mistake of producing more expensive spearmen/pikemen, etc, as military police for inner cities. I should have pillaged my iron, and produced cheap & fast (production) warriors which would have worked just as well. Generally, only front line cities need defensive units, and as you take new cities, you can generally supply those cities with defensive units from cities that are no longer 'front line'.

Obviously, you need both Iron & horses for your Knights. Perhaps in other games, I can set it up that several cities connect to the forbidden Palace, but not to the Capital. They could then be isolated from iron, and be used as military police factories? (This assumes you are probably going the war-mongering route and not going for Republic)

Mistake #3:
Slowing down the tech race after Knights may be OK, but not before.


What I should have done:
Expanded much more aggressively using settlers. Settlers are still the best way to expand your empire. Taking enemy cities early on is just too expensive.

Use warriors as much as possible for military police and Barbarian defense. Concentrate on workers/settlers until core territory is settled, with all used tiles having road & mine/irrigation

Ideally, begin the wars by bottling up both the Iroquois and the Spanish up into their peninsulas. If they were still low on tech, I may then have set up the few front line cities with 4+ JTs and 6+ catapults, and used the entire civ as a slave farm.
Raced for Knights as fast as possible, then used them to first finish off the Americans, and then the Aztecs. Finally, deal with the Iroquois & Spanish, the order depending on who was more irritating.

Mayan Military Activities, 800 BCE - 690 CE

I invaded the Americans for the second time in 10 CE, this time with the goal of wiping them out. Unfortunately, they founded St. Louis north of the Spanish the turn I decalred war, which prevented me from destroying them outright. I did, however, conquer all of America in 8 turns and banished the Americans to St. Louis. I promptly declared war on the Spanish, during which I acquired an MGL, which immediately formed a Knight Army. By 230 CE, the Spanish had been eliminated and I declared on the Americans and took St. Louis the next turn in 240 CE, eliminating America.

At this point, I settled down for a long peace, as I felt compelled to build my infrastructure rather than immediately take down the Iroquois. However, in 440 CE, bloodlust won over and I declared on the Iroquois. Despite my initial expectations, the Iroquois proved themselves quite weak, collapsing in seven turns to the Mayan Empire, resulting in the elimination of the Iroquois in 510 CE. There would be no more wars involving the Maya until the Industrial Ages, when the enraged Maya invaded an off-continent nation for reasons as yet undisclosed...

Mayan Research, 800 BCE - 690 CE

My research focused primarily on the upper tree; having deemed the Great Library useless, I had no qualms about getting to Education quickly. After Education, I researched everything in 4 turns, finally discovering Theory of Gravity in 690 CE to enter the Industrial Ages. Also, after entering the Middles Ages, I never once traded technologies with an AI (because they were always behind) until the Industrial Ages, when I gifted the Sumerians and Byzantines up to nab their free techs.

Great Mayan Achievements in the Middle Ages

The Sistine Chapel - Copan, 430 CE.
Copernicus' Observatory - Chichen Itza, 400 CE.
Sun Tzu's Art of War - CAPTURED from the Iroquois, Salamanca, 490 CE.
The Mausoleum of Mausollos - CAPTURED from the Iroquois, Salamanca, 490 CE.
Spanish Eliminated - 230 CE.
Americans Eliminated - 240 CE.
Iroquois Eliminated - 510 CE.
Left the Middle Ages - 690 CE.

Overseas Contacts

I met the Byzantines first c. 350 CE with a suicide Caravel. I quickly contacted the French, Germans, Mongols, Celts, Hittites and Sumerians thereafter. The Celts and Byzantines were the dominant powers while the Germans had not yet entered the Middle Ages. Before the Middle Ages came to a close, the Germans were sadly wiped out by the evil Celts (who would later fall to the Allied sword in World War One!), preventing me from acquiring an Industrial Age tech from them. C'est la vie.

And, the Minimap:

One sentence re-cap/summary: I captured the ToA from the Americans and crammed as many cities as possible on the continent and have shut off research. Well, two sentences. Now I am rushing Libraries, Cathedrals, and Colosseums if I get that far, in that order.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/maya_880AD.jpg

The year is 880 AD. Culture stands at 29884. Cpt is at 776, and rising about 9-15 cpt/turn, though I am not sure how balanced the drop off between having to rush cathedrals instead of libraries and the rise from 1000 double will be. But obviously I am going to miss out on the best date, which I thought I might actually have a shot at. Oh, and the Iroquois and Aztecs are still around because I have no military and thought building culture would be more effiecient than building a military to gain cities and get free culture. I am not sure if I made the right decision.

Edit: Notice I am researching PP at 0, and haven't gotten Education because I don't want to obsolete the ToA. But I qualify anyway.

holy cow that's a lot of cities!

I don't remember for sure, but I think I have 70 cities with names and I am up to 83 since I stopped naming them.

It's because the game was loaded from an initial save which was modified (by Ainwood) in the editor. Or something like that. Incidentally, my final result in this COTM would also have been on top of my personal hall of fame. :) Does anyone know if it's possible to hack the hall of fame somehow?

-- Roland
Aeson posted this somewhere in the dim past....

Open up the HighScores.cv3 file and add a line like this:

Brennus 25 2866 3 4 1



code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name Civ(Color) Score Difficulty VictoryType Victory/Loss
Brennus 25 2866 3 4 1--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Color: 0-31, matches up to the way they are listed in the editor.
Difficulty: 0-5 Chieftain-Deity
VictoryType: Domination(0), Conquest(1), Cultural(2), Diplomatic(3), Spacerace(4), Retired(5), Histograph(6)
Victory: 1 Loss: 0




The HighScores.cv3 file is simply a text file - open it in wordpad or notepad.

Being well into a comparatively late IA and still lacking direction, I have a question. When do you determine what you expect to be your winning strategy? I noticed that you had Histographic victory in COTM 02, a Domination victory in COTM 03 and are going for a Cultural 100K victory here. These are obviously very different victory strategies.
Yes the victory strategies certainly are different. I think that it helps a lot to narrow down your goal before getting too far into the game.

In this game I decided to go for 100K before the game started. I'd pretty much decided on that goal before ainwood posted the first information about the game. Partly I chose it because I haven't won a culture 100K medal in the COTM series yet. Also, my latest thinking is that it might be interesting to play each pair of GOTM/COTM games for the same goal so that I get a better feel for some of the differences between Civ3/PTW and Conquests. I'd already played GOTM34 for 100K before starting COTM04.

The six victory conditions divided into four groups as I see them:

1) Culture 20K. For this one you want to choose very early in the game. You need a site for a fairly strong city and you need to commit that city (probably one of your first three) to the 20K goal from quite early in the game.

2) Conquest and Domination. For these you want to choose relatively early in the game, probably before the end of Ancient Times. The decision to go for one of these might result in your slowing down your research around the start of the Middle Ages. It might cause you to be aggressive a bit earlier. It might cause you to throw other Civs into warfare among themselves via phoney wars and alliances, which might be a bad thing to do for other goals. It might influence your choice of government. You can delay till somewhat later in the game to decide between Conquest and Domination. I think it best not to delay very long though - if you decide to go for Domination you'll want to occupy cities and extend your borders more aggressively and you'll be less concerned about planning ahead to wipe out every remnant of any rival. For domination you may choose a slightly less efficient path through your rivals to avoid ever needing to war with a particularly strong one.

3) Diplomatic and Space. You can delay choosing these goals a bit but not very long. As long as you think you might go for one of these victory conditions you should be doing everything possible to hurry research. Sooner or later that will involve making a compromise with something else and then it becomes decision time, time to commit to one of these goals or something else. Between these two I don't see much difference except speed of the game. Diplomatic is better if you have less time available to play the game in one month than another. Diplomatic is also better if you expect to have a problem with some resource, and can also be a very good victory condition to use when in trouble - if the other Civs are ahead and might win the game, a Diplomatic victory may still save the situation.

4) Histographic. You can get a better histographic score by choosing it as a goal early on because you'll focus on mostly a domination style game, with some adjustments to your thinking for high score. (E.g. high happiness and hold the best land.) But this victory condition can also work reasonably well if chosen later on. If you feel that you're way behind where you wanted to be in going for another goal, you can catch up some of the lost Jason score by switching goals, taking territory as quickly as possible and then milking it.

In terms of scoring potential it should not in theory matter which victory condition you go for. If a map makes a particular victory easier (e.g. the scientific trait will boost your speed to Diplomatic, Space, and 100K culture) then the Jason scoring system will take that into account. I.e. if some characteristic of the map makes a particular victory condition easier or harder, the Jason target date for that victory will be earlier or later to correspond. And that will adjust the resulting Jason score accordingly.

In practice I suspect that the Jason scoring (awesome as it is - it really is an impressive accomplishment!) is skewed a bit in some cases. If you are shooting for a medal then I think that:

a) On a map with a good start position, the system works very well. Any victory condition can get a top score. Domination, conquest, and histographic may have a slight edge, I'm not sure. Not an overwhelming one.

b) On a map with a poor start position (no bonuses, or a small island, etc.) the best chance at a medal is with domination, conquest, or histographic. The other victory conditions will come at dates where the Firaxis score lost due to the weak start position is maximized.

c) In the early part of the game if you haven't pre-decided your victory condition, consider how the resources you've seen, the geography, your neighbors, and your UU might affect the ease or difficulty of reaching each victory condition. These are all things which the Jason scoring does not factor in, so if you see an advantage in some of them go for it.

And finally you might of course want to either play with a Civ's traits, e.g. going for culture 100K when religious+scientific, or be deliberately contrarian and go against your Civ's traits. Either way can be fun and neither case should have a negative result in scoring - the Jason scoring should equalize both cases. If you are not confident of victory then going with the Civ's traits is advantageous.

Open

Ancient Age (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2158848&postcount=4)

I chose to go for a domination victory this time, mainly because after going for space in GOTM34, I did not feel I had the patience to manage a sprawling empire across a large map on one of the latter victory conditions so soon after. In the event, I achieved my fastest civ finish getting domination in 1120AD, and scoring my highest Jason score to date, 9345. However, I believe I made a number of mistakes along the way that cost the readily achievable pre-1000AD finish. And what were the mistakes? Well first some history.

We had started a war with the Aztecs in 490BC, and hit the MAs in 430BC. As we were tech leaders on our continent, it seemed obvious that we were going to have to do our own research to Navigation (probably) to find the other continent, so we next researched literature so we could build libraries.

The Aztecs got peace for most of their remaining cities in 290BC. However, I left the largely tundra foot of the starting continent available for the Aztecs to subsequently recover a little and expand into. Thus tying up my forces for longer, later when they could have been used on the other continent - mistake one .
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SMC4_0.jpg
We had 17 horses, and 15 javelin throwers at this time. The JTs formed no part of the attack, they were simply used on defense, or to chase barbs if any appeared, but actually we got very few slaves off of them. We then repositioned our forces, so that in 90BC we could declare on Spain. In 110AD, Spain got peace, leaving them with just two weak cities.

In 300AD, we were finally ready for the Iroquoi, and by this time we had knights, although they were starting to get pikes as well. In 310AD we finally got our first leader which seemed surprisingly barren given the number of elite victories to this poiint. In 410AD, the Iroquois were given peace for all his remaining cities, bar the capital of course.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SMC4_1.jpg
In 400AD we had finally found the other continent, after losing about a dozen suicide galleys in the process. We found Byzantium first, and seeing that they had pikes defending, I made what was probably mistake two and overestimated the state of the other continent civs, reckoning that I would want cavalry to take on that continent, and also fearing the might of the Byzantines I signed an ROP with them so as to aid finding the other civs. SInce I did not want to destroy my rep without knowing the technological capability of the enemy, this meant that I left the Byzantines alone for the rest of the game, instead of amassing a large enough force of knights and smashing the easiest to reach foe.

So we decided to clean out our continent completely, while we studied the top line through to Navigation, and then the bottom line through to military tradition. In 490AD the Spainish were no more, but the Americans and Iroquoi survived in galleys until 700AD. 700AD also saw the start of our campaign on the other continent, and mistake three . Having given the ROP to the Byzantines, and wanting to preserve our rep for now, I had decided to attack the Mongols first, as they were still in the AA, and they were the next easiest located civ for reinforcements. But on the way through Byzantine, I ran into the French, about three turns earlier than the earliest I could start a campaign against the Mongols, and so decided to declare on them instead. This meant we did the difficult to reinforce top of the continent first (French and Germans), then wasted time repositioning at the bottom to attack the Mongols (some units taking as much as 9 turns to move from one front to the other!). If we had stuck to the Mongol attack I am sure the campaign would have been more efficient.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SMC4_2.jpg
At this time we had 48 knights, but of course, we had to split them between the other continent, and finishing off the Aztecs back at home. The latter being a task accomplished by 790AD.

The real problem with our northern conquest strategy was highlighted in 820AD when after finishing the French, and the German mainland holdings, the Celts opportunistically declared war on us, and we had to adopt a scorched earth policy to retrench back to a line we could defend. It did have the bonus of giving us an excuse to tie up the Hittites, the Byzantines and the Summerians fighting the Celts, though...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SMC4_3.jpg
We had also started the Mongol campaign by this time(830AD). We started on Sumeria in 960AD, totally destroyed the Mongols in 980AD.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SMC4_4.jpg
In 1020AD, we finished Sumeria. In 1040AD, we declared on the Hittites, and again brought the Byzantines in to help protect our weak northern front. In 1100AD, we finished off both the Celts and the Hittites, and just needed border expansions to finish the game. In 1110AD we fell exactly 6 tiles short of winning, so victory in 1120AD.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SMC4_5.jpg
Final military was 10 knights, and some 78 cavalry!

First post ever

...

I have a question, do players find their Jason score is better whe they expand culture in captured lands (whether by settlers or by libraries and temples), in order to get a quicker domination win, or is the conquest score so much better that its worth the extra years it takes to get there?
Welcome to GOTM mph3! You've made a nice entrance :)

I wish I could answer your question. I think that's the trickiest area to gauge in the Jason scoring. I don't have a good feel for it. The difference between the Jason score target dates for conquest vs. domination vary from map to map.

There are a couple of rules of thumb I think will work most or all of the time:

1) If you can get a conquest win within five turns of when you can get domination, go for conquest.

2) If you can get a domination win 25 or more turns before you can get conquest, go for domination.

The in-between zone is where it becomes difficult to judge. I think the best bet there is to go with whichever one you feel you're doing best on. E.g. if you get near the end, both goals are in reach, and you see in hindsight that a much faster approach to domination was possible, then finish with a conquest. And v.v. if you see in hindsight that a much faster approach to conquest was possible, go for domination. If both, maybe flipping a coin is best :lol:

Thanks Ainwood, I figured out most of that myself by comparing with the results I already had in the hall of fame, but this makes it much clearer. :goodjob:

-- Roland

(Side note: How the hell hard can it be, so that if you select a unit in a stack, the next unit selected continues to be of the same stack? Having the computer constantly jump me around the world as I try to deal with units from a certain stack drives me nuts)

Tell me about it... :gripe: This is extremely annoying, and simply a case of very very lazy programming! When I saw it in vanilla Civ some three years ago or something, I thought "ouch, this is one bug they will have to squash in the very first patch!", and here we are, after numerous patches and versions, and the same stupid thing is still happening! :mad: Actually, I think one of the early patches was supposed to help with this problem, but I don't think it made it much better, possibly it made it worse. The ability to move units in stack (thank god for that - moving 70 Artillery units one by one was *slightly* tedious...) helps too, but it's still incredibly annoying! :thumbdown

Anyway, to be a little constructive, here's what I do all the time, to keep from getting dizzy and disorientated from getting thrown from one side of the world to another all the time: Right-click on the stack of units, then hold down SHIFT and click on each of the units in the stack. Then you will get to manage each unit in the stack in the order you clicked on them. Now, of course, another case of annoying programming pops up: When you SHIFT-click on a unit, the order of the units in the stack is sometimes shuffled, so after a while, if the stack is big enough, you don't know what units you've already clicked on. The end result is usually that there are some units left behind with movement-points left. And if the stack is big enough for you to have to scroll through the list while SHIFT-clicking, it gets even worse, 'cause then often you will have to scroll up and down after clicking on each individual unit! :rolleyes:

Here's hoping that whoever is in charge of programming Civ4, hires some TALENTED programmers this time...

-- Roland

@cryspen: [slightly off-topic]

I completely agree with you on the boringness of micromanaging. I respect the people that squeeze out more points by spending more hours, and they absolutely deserve their scores, but for me the interesting part of the game are the macro decisions like when to attack, whom to attack, what to build, how much and what to research etc. etc..

That said, in the beginning micromanagement is an absolute must. The QSC difference between a micromanaged game and a 'macromanaged' game is just too big to ignore, especially given the 'exponential growth' aspect of games like civ. Moreover, in the beginning it is more manageable since there are simply less towns, less workers, etc..

In all of my games, I switch to a sort of macromanage mode shortly after the QSC period, giving the governor control over production and citizen moods and automating all workers (except for strategic road building). This is less efficient but this also makes winning at non-Sid levels [slightly] more challenging. I also wonder really how much difference it makes in the end, where workers are more or less free anyway and the governor building decisions are not too insensible. The one thing you miss out on is specialists (which is a shame since the governor could have easily turned unnecessary entertainers into scientists / tax collectors depending on tax levels)) but for the rest the governor is faily decent. You can also see this in that the AI is not too bad at settling and developing a country, but completely sucks at the military aspects of the games, be it defending or [counter]attacking. For that, you need multiplayer :-)

When it comes to warfare, I agree with you that some more macro-manage options would have been nice. Some sort of 'activate all not-damaged units' would have been useful, and a stack 'move-and-attack' that only moves the units into enemy territory one by one (avoiding the loss of movement points). But then again, warfare is quite interesting and the stack movement certainly helps a lot.

What would have been great is some sort of custom action buttons with an underlying automation script (like MS VBA), although that might take away too much of the romance. Then again, top-level civ playing is very "scientific" due to our thorough understanding of the resource and corruption models and build queue optimization strategies (for which many thanks to a lot of people on this site). Maybe CIV4 will see MOO3 as a source of inspiration for macromanage features, even though I think civ3 is infinitely more playable than MOO3.

As a slightly more on-topic note, SirPleb referred to one of his Spotlight games for a discussion on slowing the tech race in the first spoiler. Although I doubt that would be very useful here since the JT is hardly a fantastic UU compared to the Gaellic Swordsmen, it is an interesting game to look at

@Sir Pleb: I'm glad to see that our dates at least sort of compare, although you of course went for 100k rather than military. And many thanks for your shared thoughts on victory conditions, I tend to try and finish a game that is obviously won as quickly as possible, which usually means military, but I'm inspired to go for a cultural victory next month :-)

@ Roland Ehnström

I think you are being way too harsh on the Civ3 programming team here. At the very least, the decision how much time to spend on what fixes is probably not made by them, and by hanging around here you implicitely agree that the end product is at least playable.

Making changes in a complex program can be extremely difficult depending on the nature of the change and the program, and might cause other things to stop functioning. At design time, they thought of things to avoid micromanagement (like the governor and automating workers - both of which work well if you are prepared to sacrifice some efficiency), but they obviously couldn't think of everything. Changes after the product has been finished are generally non-trivial and frankly we don't have enough information about the source code to know whether something is left as it is out of laziness, resource shortage or prudency.

Blame the company, blame Sid if you have to, but don't blame the programming team.

@SirPleb

And if you forgot to steal the island city before it became a capital, go for domination :-)

Anyway, to be a little constructive, here's what I do all the time, to keep from getting dizzy and disorientated from getting thrown from one side of the world to another all the time: Right-click on the stack of units, then hold down SHIFT and click on each of the units in the stack. Then you will get to manage each unit in the stack in the order you clicked on them. Now, of course, another case of annoying programming pops up: When you SHIFT-click on a unit, the order of the units in the stack is sometimes shuffled, so after a while, if the stack is big enough, you don't know what units you've already clicked on. The end result is usually that there are some units left behind with movement-points left. And if the stack is big enough for you to have to scroll through the list while SHIFT-clicking, it gets even worse, 'cause then often you will have to scroll up and down after clicking on each individual unit! :rolleyes:


I use the Right-Click alot. I didn't know it would remember the order clicked though. Anyway, I wanted to add a couple things.

Using a mouse with a scroll wheel allows you to scroll the really big lists. There is always a wake/fortify options at the bottom if there is more then one unit eligable. I also find the wheel very valuable with the city production screen. It works on all the Advisor screens and even will scroll the map. Definately worth the investment.

Also, in C3C, you can use J to move the entire stack or Ctrl-J move all the units of the same type in the stack. You do have to be careful moving mixed units as the whole stack will stay together to the destination. If one unit runs out of movement points before the destination they all run out. This is good for escorting but bad if you accidentally pickup a worker in your stack of tanks. :)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif (predator)

I never did find that saltpeter island, but when I got the new continent mapped, I found this nice spot :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Saltpeter_570_AD.jpg

Notice that Germany is allready gone and the Hittities are down to one city. But at this time, 570 AD, they were all at peace.

I was going for conquest but then the Byzantines moved their capital to the one tile island :mad: , so I ended with domination in 880 AD, score 7394.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Maya_880_AD1.jpg

I think you are being way too harsh on the Civ3 programming team here. At the very least, the decision how much time to spend on what fixes is probably not made by them, and by hanging around here you implicitely agree that the end product is at least playable.

Oh yes, the product as a whole is excellent, but there are those small but very annoying and time-consuming flaws, that to me smell nothing but programmer lazyness. Yes, if this "lazyness" is a result of the product being rushed, then of course I blame whoever was responsible for rushing the product rather than the programmer. If the problem wasn't even recognized at the beta-stage, I blame the beta-testers (but then it could and should have been fixed in a patch by now). In any case, it is a real shame that a multi-million dollar product as Civilization 3, comes with flaws that wouldn't have cost more than a day's worth of work for one decent programmer to fix (at a cost of what, $300?). Actually, the problem described above, is simple enough that it feels like I almost could fix it myself if I had the source code. And I'm not even a programmer...

Call to Power, with all it's flaws, had an EXCELLENT stack-moving and stack-attacking system. Considering how much CtP borrowed from Civ2, I don't understand why the designers of Civ3 didn't just copy the CtP system. It would have made Civ3 so much better, for very little effort. Instead, they release Civ3 without ANY possibility to move units in a stack, which basicly made it impossible to play large and huge maps into the modern age. As you say, they implemented automated workers and city-govenors, to remove a lot of micro-management. But when you wanted to move a stack of 70 Artillery in vanilla Civ3, you would have to press the arrow key 70 times (and not 70 times in a row, no, after you've moved 2 or 3 Artillery, you would be thrown to the other side of the world to fortify an Infantry, then back to the Artillery, then back to the Infantry, then......). I fail to see the logic behind this.

(And yes, of course I know all about J and CTRL-J. I am very happy that this was added in a patch, but to me it's something that's important enough that it should have been in the game from the start. And it is still very much a less-than-perfect stack-moving system - why can't we just have a simple system where you hold down a certain button, then click on some units of your choice, for these units to be "glued" together to form a stack, which can then be easily moved around? How hard can that be to program?)

-- Roland

I am learning a lot in this thread. No one is going to learn anything in this post, except how to coast to domination (maybe) from a very generous start position.

The Middle Ages were far less agressive than they could have been, largely because the Maya didn't bother building a military of any note, except a couple of cavalry armies at the end. Decided at the beginning that we would only fight when we were good and ready to expand, not just for conquest's sake alone. (This means, I guess, that I am pursuing no victory condition in particular, but just going along for the Mayan civilisation ride.)

Anyway, we got there (the Industrial Age), with a few important wonders (Leo's, Magellan's, Copernicus' and Newton's) and a Pentagon. And about 60% of our continent.

Some details...

370BC - Enter Middle Ages. At war with America; just destroyed Atlanta on top of the coveted northern wheatfields, with a settler moving up.
IBT, a Spanish settler moves on top of Atlanta's ruins. Sigh, more war.

350BC - The Great Wall is completed in Tikal. DECLARE WAR on Spain. Destroy their settler, and an American settler that was just behind it. (The AI certainly like to have settlers ready, don't they.)

310BC - Found Dzibilchaltun on hill SW of Atlanta ruins. The Great Library is completed in Chichen Itza.

270BC - Destoy Boston. IBT, Americans will give us 4 cities for peace, but I want a leader.

210BC - Make peace with Spain, taking Valencia in the far north (a useless prize).

110BC - Seattle destroyed. Peace made with Americans, taking 2 cities, less than they were willing to give before. Should have cut that war short, and gained more, long ago.

50BC - Iroquois sneak attack. Killing Iro units for the next few turns - leader fishing, to no avail. Still don't have a real miltary, so won't make them pay yet. Forbidden Palace completed in Kaminal.

Building, building, but Mayan military still laughable.

Suicide galleys. Sinking.

300AD - Aztecs declare war. Take a city in the far south that was useless to me anyway.

360AD - Knight's Templar completed in Calakmul.

370AD - Major Aztec incursion (swordsmen and jaguars) into Lazapa province. I watch and kill.

420AD - Make peace with Aztecs getting 40g. (Are we pathetic! Need some time to build up forces.)

480AD - Leonardo's Workshop is completed in Chichen Itza.

Cheap upgrades. Crusaders. Soon we'll be ready to lose our patience.

730AD - Gunpowder. Settler rushed from CI, Caravel Dauntless sets sail for Peterland in 760.

750AD - Get Iroquois to declare war. Start taking Iro cities and putting lost mounted warriors out of their misery. Get gems. And then, in 890...

Magnificent 5th Horsemen defeat Iroquois MWs north of Allegheny, under the leadership of Blue-Quetzal-Macaw, who is recognised as the first Great Leader of the Mayan army. He organises an army of Bonampak knights, and two more stubborn Iro cities are taken. And...

The Maya (slow, peaceful builders at heart) stop, leaving Iroquois a respectable dominion of 4 towns.

Meanwhile, 820-890AD, ... The town of Peter is founded beside the hill, road is built to saltpeter mines, and harbour rushed.

920AD - Copernicus establishes observatory in Calakmul.

1010AD - Sumeria builds JS Bach's Cathedral one turn ahead of Chichen Itza. Arrgh! Research up to 70% to get Military Tradition in one turn, and the Academy in CI. Sell 4 colosseums to stay solvent.

Have a few knights hanging around up north, so we DECLARE WAR on America.

1030AD - Chichen Itza builds Military Academy.

1030-1150AD - America falls. The leader of the 8th Great Horsemen, Eighteen Rabbit, distinguishes himself in the battle of Washington and forms an army.

Never bothered leaving Republic so war weariness was hitting hard. Peace with America, leaving them Houston in the north.

1120AD - CONTACT Byzantines across the water to the east: exchange Chemistry for... Printing Press, world map, contact with Mongols, Celts, Germans, Hittites, French (all but Sumeria), and all their money.
Send envoy to the weakest, France: exchange literature for contact with Sumeria. Maya and Aztecs are strongest civs. We are the technology leader, up metallurgy and MT over Celts and Sumeria.

1190AD - Magellan's Voyage returns to Kaminal, after a successful circumnavigation of... we'll call this world America.

Buildup.

1255AD - DECLARE WAR on Aztecs. Lots of cannons, muskets, and crusaders, Eighteen Rabbit's and the Academy's cavalry armies reduce Tenochtitlan and 2 other major cities to rubble. Peace is made. New southern cities established.

1330AD - Pentagon in CI. Enter Industrial ages.

Open class...

Ancient age in short again:
Conquered america (except for one city south of Chichen Itza), conquered a little of Aztec territory.

Middle Ages:
With MI and an MI army (my 4th army) I conquered Aztec cities one after another.
They had build ToA, so I got a nice culture boost in those conquered cities.
Build FP in Washington (Mausoleum of Mausollos was there)

Sadly the Spain had salpeter but not me...So after finishing the Aztecs I decided to go for the Iroqouis, because they didn't have iron.

I didn't sell contacts till Navigation, this hindered the AI but the tech rate was too slow to get an early victory.

By the end of the Middle Ages, a lot happened, Spain attacked me after I switched to demo and the Byzantines attacked me shortly after.
I conquered spain (but it was alittle in the Ind.Age. when I finally captured their salpeter city) and signed a few alliances vs. Byz. . Sumeria France and Mongols finaly destroyed the Byzantines.

I built Smiths and Newtons.

I decided to go for space victory, because I was the tech leader and had enough productive cities.

Sir Pleb:

Thanks for the response