New Unit: Zulu Cavalry (September 15, 2004) [Archive]

Dom Pedro II

Sep 16, 2004, 07:54 AM

wait... now I'm confused. could you explain this?

I didn't mean the actual Adam and Eve... just that permanent settlements, if they are to survive, require both men and women... a settlement with all men, unless something's changed since I was in high school, is not going to last more than one generation without women.

Yeah seriously, stop trying to milk kinboat's talent for all its worth.
have you even ever had a chance to play civ 3 kinboat?

Why not milk it for all its worth? Doesn't mean we have to have the whip to his back and constantly demanding more from him... but if he's able and willing, then we should try to get as much out of it as possible.

Ekmek

Sep 16, 2004, 11:18 AM

Just simply awesome. I look forward to more African units...

Aluminium

Sep 16, 2004, 12:21 PM

:clap:
I hope I'm the next 'Lotto King'! :D

Kinboat

Sep 16, 2004, 01:45 PM

I didn't mean the actual Adam and Eve... just that permanent settlements, if they are to survive, require both men and women... a settlement with all men, unless something's changed since I was in high school, is not going to last more than one generation without women.

Why not milk it for all its worth? Doesn't mean we have to have the whip to his back and constantly demanding more from him... but if he's able and willing, then we should try to get as much out of it as possible.

We may need women but recent advances may mean that women won't need men in the not so distant future. I heard of something a couple of months back where scientists took two eggs and got a viable embryo without needing any sperm.

The J-10 Chinese fighter jet and the 'truely' modern Legionary are the official next things on my list. I'm also fiddling around with some other stuff, but those two are the ones I should work on.

I don't really mind people asking what's next... Just don't expect an answer all the time :D

I've got to remember to stay out of Dom Pedro's path from now on... He's carrying a whip :eek:

Cimbri

Sep 16, 2004, 02:15 PM

Nice :goodjob:

Though obviously very tanned, I'll use him as a Janjaweed (a Sudanese Arab mobile militia) in my scenario. :)

Dom Pedro II

Sep 16, 2004, 03:10 PM

We may need women but recent advances may mean that women won't need men in the not so distant future. I heard of something a couple of months back where scientists took two eggs and got a viable embryo without needing any sperm.

Yeah, I started working on a comic book called Chromosome X about a society of lesbians who reproduced this way... but then I turned 13... :p

Goldflash

Sep 16, 2004, 03:57 PM

FINISH THE COMICBOOK! :lol: Yeaaahhhh! Maybe I'll turn 13 some day, soon

Sword_Of_Geddon

Sep 16, 2004, 04:04 PM

MarineCorps

Sep 16, 2004, 04:07 PM

That I doubt very highly.

What do you doubt? The scientists part or the women may not need men someday?

Sword_Of_Geddon

Sep 16, 2004, 04:17 PM

Both? :eek:

Dom Pedro II

Sep 16, 2004, 04:23 PM

Even if women are able to procreate without men, they'll still keep us around... I mean, if they're stupid enough to be charmed by these losers who are obviously completely insincere and only want to get in their pants, then they'll never be able to survive on their own... let's face it, the "back massager" doesn't kiss you goodnight.

Sword_Of_Geddon

Sep 16, 2004, 04:30 PM

Did this fictional Embryo even survive?

Anyway, just because Science CAN do something, doesn't mean it should.

tjedge1

Sep 16, 2004, 04:44 PM

How could they fertilize the egg with another egg? Wouldn't you need the chromosome from the sperm? I was under the impression that the eggs lack certain chromosomes that the sperm has. I'm no scientist, but what kind of child would that be? This makes me think of the movie Weird Science.

Not to worry too much about women getting rid of men. Despite how some women feel we are good for a lot more than just procreation. Afterall aren't the best designers in the world usually men? Even if they like other men, they are still men. ;)

Ozymandias

Sep 16, 2004, 04:54 PM

... OK, it's had its amusing moments, but don't you all think zygotogenesis is just a tad OT from Zulu cavalry?

gorn

Sep 16, 2004, 04:56 PM

I go to work everyday so my wife can sit around at home, buy more shoes, and have lunch with her friends at expensive French restaurants. And I can kill spiders. I can't foresee a world where men like me would become obsolete. Women are FAR smarter than that.

tjedge1

Sep 16, 2004, 05:00 PM

@ozymandias: OT yes, but Kinbat brought it up and it's his thread. I was just asking for more details.

@gorn: I here you man.

Kinboat

Sep 16, 2004, 05:25 PM

tjedge1

Sep 16, 2004, 05:37 PM

I see. Thanks for that. Weird. Been a long time since I was in a classroom. I'll drop it now. ;)

waTTe

Sep 16, 2004, 06:13 PM

Thanks Kinboat, this a wonderful unit, it looks very "vivid".
It´s great to see you unit-creators closing the gaps in the ranks of flavor-units!

Did the Zulu ever use cavalry was asked ...

Zulus did toward the end of their short epoch (elites among their men), but not like this - it's meant as pure hypothetical for the epic game.

- Redking

No, simply NO.

When part of the Zulu impis advanced on Rorke´s Drift after the victorious battle at Isandlawana ther was ONE mounted man reported with the troops. It was the General on a white horse - Is that your elites? :D

W.i.n.t.e.r

Sep 16, 2004, 07:09 PM

Hikaro Takayama

Sep 16, 2004, 07:44 PM

Well obviously the embryo would've been female... 2 X chromosomes makes a female, an X and a Y make a male. So the theory goes that they can take an X from each egg and get an embryo that has some genetic diversity (not a clone), and shares the traits of the two donors... I never said they should do it... I said they were looking into it :D Plus even if they don't keep us around for the kids they'll still keep us around for the manual labor...
Yeah this is a little off topic isn't it :lol:

Great unit Kinboat, I'll be using it as the second Zulu UU, when I get around to updating my Tweaked Out mod. BTW, where did you pick up your copy of 3D Studio Max. I've been stationed in Southern California for the better (or worse, depending on how you look at it) part of the past year, and I've been through all the big electronics warehouses and computer stores without finding a single copy of Max or Maya. The best I could find was Bryce 5 and Poser 5 at Fry's Electronics.

Oh, and <off topic> This discussion kinda reminds me of a concept I worked into this Sci-Fi story I'm writing called Galaxy In Peril. In this story, a group of 3000 radical genetic scientists put themselves into cryogenic sleep and launched themselves toward Alpha Centauri. The reason for this desparate gambit was to escape international retribution for using cybernetic clones in their global takeover attempt. En route, they got picked up by an advanced alien race that was fairly impressed with their genetic technology. The aliens gave them an uninhabited jungle planet and 10 years to show what they could do in the way of bio-technology and weapons. It only took about 5 years for these exiled humans to alter both their and a local insectiod lifeform's DNA so that they could symbiotically join to form a biological super-trooper (they could separate after 6 months when they shed their exoskeleton), and to change their entire population to one gender. Their way of getting around the whole thing is that they used some factors that were already existant. When an egg cell is produced in meiosis, three almost cytoplasm-free "polar bodies" are also produced, which normally go to waste. These scientists altered the genetic code so that these polar bodies would be matured into sperm cells, as is the way for the male reproductive system (guess who was a biology major before a lack of funding forced him to drop out of college and join the Navy). Basic genetic incompatibility, along with a few other genetic tweaks keep these ladies from self-fertilization. I basically included this gorup as an example of genetic science (and science in general) going too far, and thought that it was somewhat interesting (albeit extremely disturbing) that similar experiments were being conducted in RL </off topic>

Xen

Sep 16, 2004, 08:13 PM

Well, scientists have (!) estimated that men (as in male men) will be extinct in 125.000 years... what would I give to see that.... at last women not able to blame everything on us (u know: the always happily used "its all your fault")... and I would like to see how they are gonna talk themselves out their lousy driving by then (since men are statistically involved in most accidents... while women statistically provoked the greater part of those)... oh, and btw: excellent unit KB: best detail level on both horse and rider :goodjob:

I doubt that highlly; as a student of genetocs class myself, I can say that in all likyness, that is based on current birth rates, and infant mortality rates; which is absurd as a projection for the future of manking in the sense of when one half of the species will go extinct; birth rates, and infant mortality rates are, as common sense woudl dictate, alternateinf all the time, as conditions in nations improve/decline

Dom Pedro II

Sep 16, 2004, 08:29 PM

I doubt that highlly; as a student of genetocs class myself, I can say that in all likyness, that is based on current birth rates, and infant mortality rates; which is absurd as a projection for the future of manking in the sense of when one half of the species will go extinct; birth rates, and infant mortality rates are, as common sense woudl dictate, alternateinf all the time, as conditions in nations improve/decline

Not to mention the fact that excluding deliberate efforts by genetic scientists, extinction of one half of the species will unquestionably mean the extinction of the WHOLE species...

Redking

Sep 16, 2004, 09:25 PM

Did the Zulu ever use cavalry was asked ...

No, simply NO.

When part of the Zulu impis advanced on Rorke´s Drift after the victorious battle at Isandlawana ther was ONE mounted man reported with the troops. It was the General on a white horse - Is that your elites? :D

I don't wish to be contentious, but at least I'll be on topic. You cite a single battle in refuting my claim that there were occassional Zulu mounted "elites", and one recitation is hardly a sound argument.

I'm no expert on this matter, and it's certainly irrelavent as to whether the unit is usable in an epic game, but I'll stick to my impression that there were late, meager attempts at horsemanship among the Zulus. Particularily, I believe I've read that there were Zulu warriors who fought from horseback at Ncome.

Further, there were definately several (mostly poor) attempts to adjust to warfare with muskets and rifles.

More concretely to the issue of Zulu horsemanship, the neighboring Sotho, who were a Bantu speaking people (same as the Nguni/Zulu) and carried many of the pre-Shaka military customs that the Zulu held, were often characterized as excellent horseman. As the Zulus absorbed their many kinsmen, and the Zulu civ (in game) represents this absorption, I don't find inclusion of a Zulu horseman to be at all outlandish, nor especially non-historical.

Now, the stripey thing, I admit, that's pure fantasy (though based on genetic possibility, as I see it). That came to be because I thought it would look cool... and it does.

- Redking

Dom Pedro II

Sep 16, 2004, 09:32 PM

I don't wish to be contentious, but at least I'll be on topic. You cite a single battle in refuting my claim that there were occassional Zulu mounted "elites", and one recitation is hardly a sound argument.

I'm no expert on this matter, and it's certainly irrelavent as to whether the unit is usable in an epic game, but I'll stick to my impression that there were late, meager attempts at horsemanship among the Zulus. Particularily, I believe I've read that there were Zulu warriors who fought from horseback at Ncome.

Further, there were definately several (mostly poor) attempts to adjust to warfare with muskets and rifles.

More concretely to the issue of Zulu horsemanship, the neighboring Sotho, who were a Bantu speaking people (same as the Nguni/Zulu) and carried many of the pre-Shaka military customs that the Zulu held, were often characterized as excellent horseman. As the Zulus absorbed their many kinsmen, and the Zulu civ (in game) represents this absorption, I don't find inclusion of a Zulu horseman to be at all outlandish, nor especially non-historical.

Now, the stripey thing, I admit, that's pure fantasy (though based on genetic possibility, as I see it). That came to be because I thought it would look cool... and it does.

- Redking

The other thing to remember is that there's nothing wrong with having units that didn't actually exist... regardless of whether the Zulu actually used horses, it doesn't really matter.

As for the stripes, they could just as easily be painted on... no fuss, no muss.

Kinboat

Sep 16, 2004, 11:06 PM

Plus... As Redking said... It looks cool :D I'm really happy how the horse texture turned out.

Dom Pedro II

Sep 17, 2004, 12:41 AM

Plus... As Redking said... It looks cool :D I'm really happy how the horse texture turned out.

Seriously... I'm not ashamed to say this... but when I saw the preview.... I wept... truly... no... not really, but it's very cool though.

Adler17

Sep 17, 2004, 01:50 AM

Good work Kinboat. :goodjob: Is this a Quagga (Equus quagga quagga) the soldier is riding?

Adler

thestonesfan

Sep 17, 2004, 07:54 AM

W.i.n.t.e.r

Sep 17, 2004, 08:13 AM

@Xen: No, I am speaking about the deterriorating genetic supervivence of stricly male genetic code on the y chromosome.

Who would kill the spiders? There aren't that many butch lesbians to go around!

You should go to a sports University- can't miss'em :eek:

Kinboat

Sep 17, 2004, 08:36 AM

Well I did model the texture after the Quagga... But the tail is a horse tail where a Quagga tail looks like a zebra tail... Plus some differences in the size of the head relative to the body, and other minor points. The idea was to make a horse that had the coloring of a Quagga (either through decoration or some sort of crossbreeding... the theory os left up to you :D ).

thestonesfan

Sep 17, 2004, 08:41 AM

If anyone is in the mood for some re-coloring, this would also make a cool Arabian Cavalry.

Hikaro Takayama

Sep 17, 2004, 02:27 PM

If you guys think women could live without men, well, you aren't married. Who would kill the spiders? There aren't that many butch lesbians to go around!

Anyway, awesome unit!

And I believe the J-10 will be your first air unit since the old biplanes, right Kinboat?

If you think that most women are fainting daisies who are too wussy to kill their own spiders, you obviously have never met any country gals. Where I'm from, the ladies can shuck corn, belch, hunt and shovel manure right there with the guys (and still somehow manage to look good in a dress on Sunday). As a matter of fact, even the ones who are actually scared of spiders have proven themselves more than capable of killing them on their own, as well as larger and (from many women's perspective) grosser adversaries, such as copperheads and rattlesnakes.

Of course, some males persistance in perpetuating outdated and sexist stereotypes could be all the catalyst for women to actually TRY to get rid of us. Hell, I knew one girl in HS who believed that all men should be rounded up, locked up underground and used only for reproductive purposes until genetic engineering rendered us unnecesary. As a matter of fact, the evil feminazi genetic scientist in my Sci-Fi novel was based on her.

Anyways, I like the texturing on this horse here, Kinboat. Did you make it (the horse, that is) yourself? Also, is there any possibility you might release any other models for us poor folks who can't afford a program like MAX or download OpenFX due to extremely slow connections?

Ekmek

Sep 17, 2004, 03:25 PM

Women were kept out of the military for centuries not out of weakness, but the fact that with women a war will never cease. They never compromise and always keep a grudge.

With that. if this is recolored as arab cavalry you might have to change the helmet/hat too. just for a little variety.

waTTe

Sep 17, 2004, 04:14 PM

The other thing to remember is that there's nothing wrong with having units that didn't actually exist... regardless of whether the Zulu actually used horses, it doesn't really matter.

Well that´s exactly my opinion - I pointed that out earlier.
In fact I love this unit :) , I only wanted to correct something that was posted as a fact, which I belive is wrong .. and I still do so :mischief:

I don't wish to be contentious, but at least I'll be on topic. You cite a single battle in refuting my claim that there were occassional Zulu mounted "elites", and one recitation is hardly a sound argument.

I'm no expert on this matter, and it's certainly irrelavent as to whether the unit is usable in an epic game, but I'll stick to my impression that there were late, meager attempts at horsemanship among the Zulus. Particularily, I believe I've read that there were Zulu warriors who fought from horseback at Ncome.

Further, there were definately several (mostly poor) attempts to adjust to warfare with muskets and rifles.

More concretely to the issue of Zulu horsemanship, the neighboring Sotho, who were a Bantu speaking people (same as the Nguni/Zulu) and carried many of the pre-Shaka military customs that the Zulu held, were often characterized as excellent horseman. As the Zulus absorbed their many kinsmen, and the Zulu civ (in game) represents this absorption, I don't find inclusion of a Zulu horseman to be at all outlandish, nor especially non-historical.

- Redking

I still think that there were no cavalry troops with the Zulu. I could give dozens of rezitations were only foot units were engaged, but in fact only one where mounted Zulus were seen. And this one was short before Isandlawhana, when there was a report, that some mounted Zulu scoust had been spotted. But even these "izinlholi" were mostly on foot and no fighting troops.
In fact I would be astonished about, but interested in "Zulu warriors who fought from horseback at Ncome". If you can remember where you read this I would be thankful if you tell me. For example read "Captain henry Hallam Parr: A Sketch of the Kaffir and Zulu wars" and you´ll hardly find a mounted Zulu.
Maybe it´s just a confusion about sides? :crazyeye:
There were Zulu that served for the english, mostly from Natal, as the partly mounted Native Natal Contingent (N.N.C.) or the troops of the traitor Sikali.

With rifles it more different and its use is documented, for example for sniper-fire while crossing rivers or from the Oscarberg at Rorke´s Drift. But generally rifles were no part of the Zulu miltary order. I was still more like in Shakas time than modern - look at the battle of Gingindlovu, from wich an eye-witness reported the Zulu-"attack" : running-halting-running advance, with rythmic humming sounds, bashing their spears against their shield and stomping rythmic on the ground.
Must have been an impressive spectacle, but ended in massacre with estimated 1000 dead Zulu. :sad:

I´m working on a Zulu-War scenario, with some progress (waiting for the requested boer-war-map from redalert which would be fine for me too) and hope the pedia-texts will please you ;)

Enough said :D

GREAT UNIT KINBOAT! :goodjob:

thefusilier

Sep 17, 2004, 05:46 PM

Hey great unit as usual. Where would you fit this in the tech tree though? Is it a gunpowdered unit or sword/spear type? What would you use it to replace?

Sword_Of_Geddon

Sep 17, 2004, 05:54 PM

Off-Topic: Anyone who attempts to create single-sex reproduction is a Mad-Scientist and Playing God. Those kinds of Scientists are the kind usually reserved for science fiction villains. I personally would oppose any and all attempts at Eugenics, even if it ment taking up arms.....end of story....

Any so called "evidance" that states that Men are gradually becoming extinct is highly doubtful.....most likely Propaganda from Ultra-Radical Feminist Groups, one example of the left's equaleviant to the KKK.

.................................................. .................................................. ....

On the other hand, the Zulu Cavalry is a good unit that I've already placed in my mod. Much better than previous Kinboat Horsemen, even though the Templar was quite good.

Although the Zulu never imployed Cavalry, if there was no European Imperialism during the 19th century(and before most likely), theres no doubt in my mind that the Zulu would have eventually developed them. The Greeks didn't really use much Horses until Alexander the great, keep that in mind, although I may be wrong on this subject, and deserve a thrashing by Xen....

Redking

Sep 17, 2004, 07:36 PM

As an aside, this is funny to look at.

http://img.thefreedictionary.com/wiki/c/cf/Domesticatedzebra.jpeg

- Redking

Hikaro Takayama

Sep 17, 2004, 08:33 PM

With that. if this is recolored as arab cavalry you might have to change the helmet/hat too. just for a little variety.

Actually, with the Fez (at least that's what the hat looks like anyways), a re-colored version of the unit could be used as a Morroccan Sipahi such as those who served with distinction under the French during the beginning of WWII. I've been toying around with adding the Morroccans to my Tweaked Out epic mod, especially since Civ Army made the leaderhead (or was it R8XFT that made it, I can't quite recall), and that would be a good UU for them (I'll be using the Zulu Cavlary as the Second Zulu UU).

Any so called "evidance" that states that Men are gradually becoming extinct is highly doubtful.....most likely Propaganda from Ultra-Radical Feminist Groups, one example of the left's equaleviant to the KKK.

Sword, I think those statistics are based on current trends in male-female birth rates. Currently there's about 2 girls being born for every boy, and scientists have been pondering and theorizing about what this trend could mean. I could tell them right off what's going on: over population. If we reduced our population on this planet by either (a) starting a massive space colonization effort or (b) fighting a massive all out global war, I'm fairly confident that the male-female birth ratio would return to about 1:1.

Xen

Sep 17, 2004, 10:43 PM

Heh. But I happen to liek the 2:1 ratio for girls:to boys.... :D

Dom Pedro II

Sep 17, 2004, 11:29 PM

So apparently some British moron decided one day... "Hey! We've made this very impressive empire through the cunning use of flags... we're the greatest country in the world, and nothing is sacred or unconquerable to us... I'm going to mount an animal that is completely untameable and could easily kill me with one kick!"

And some other British moron replied, "Good show, old chap!"

:rolleyes:

Sword_Of_Geddon

Sep 17, 2004, 11:38 PM

The British Zebra Rider! :goodjob: :lol:

HT: THAT makes sense, I always thought that Girls are naturally more likely than guys to be born though. Look at Henry the 8th for example, how many wives did he go threw before getting a son?

I think I was refering to the extinction stuff, reminds me of an episode of Sliders I saw once...

Yabanjin

Sep 18, 2004, 05:54 AM

"Some British moron..."? I don't suppose saying, "Some stupid guy" would have made that joke(!?) any funnier, but... Nice unit though.

Redking

Sep 18, 2004, 08:09 AM

waTTe

Sep 18, 2004, 09:44 AM

Funny picture Redking! Your next unit-request? :)

Ozymandias

Sep 18, 2004, 10:28 AM

The zebra is "tameable", it's just not fully domesticable.

- Redking

Meaning you can pet one and feed it carrots or whatnot, but not ride it, yes?

-Oz

Wolfwood

Sep 18, 2004, 11:05 AM

Heh. But I happen to liek the 2:1 ratio for girls:to boys.... :D
Me, too. Unfortunately, my wife is evidently not drawing the same conclusion from these statistics that I am... :(

And, back to the topic: This unit went into my mod immediately! Absolutely beautiful!

Redking

Sep 18, 2004, 03:03 PM

Meaning you can pet one and feed it carrots or whatnot, but not ride it, yes?

-Oz

A particular zebra may have a good disposition, and thus that one animal would be tameable (though they apparently get nastier with age), but as a rule they are said to have poor disposition (as compared to a typical horse or ass), and thus as a species are considered undomesticable. Zebra hybrids apparently may carry the disposition of the ass or horse parent, and so some people hold hope for domesticating a various zebra hybrids.

- Redking

Xen

Sep 18, 2004, 03:21 PM

A particular zebra may have a good disposition, and thus that one animal would be tameable (though they apparently get nastier with age), but as a rule they are said to have poor disposition (as compared to a typical horse or ass), and thus as a species are considered undomesticable. Zebra hybrids apparently may carry the disposition of the ass or horse parent, and so some people hold hope for domesticating a various zebra hybrids.

- Redking

wuldnt it be possible (not saying that it shoudl eb done, in fact, i think it woudl be a rther big waste of time...) if one could gather all the well-tempered zebras, or at least a popualtion of... oh a fair amount would be 100-150 to make a nice viable population, of the "nicer"; tame and trian, and moreover breed them; it would be possible to (with time) breed a domesticateable version, yes?

Zeekater

Sep 18, 2004, 03:46 PM

I think anything can be tamed, but in order for the animal to become like a modern horse it would take a lot of time, probably more then 1000 years.
Remember that a dog once was a wolf.

Xen

Sep 18, 2004, 03:49 PM

Ozymandias

Sep 18, 2004, 04:12 PM

I look at siberian huskeys and see an animaly that essentially, is a physical wolf, only slightyll changed to be a bit more hearty; but the big change is in its behavior; thats what i woudl imagine happenign with a zebra at first; nearlyl no real changes in physical structure, but changes in behavior, whichcan be bred relitivlly fast; at least in comaprsion to physical breedeing for triats

Dogs are essentially wolves whose development is atrophied in "adolescence" -- e.g., wolf pups wag their tails whereas the adults do not.

There is also considerable speculation over the nature of dog domestication, including the theory that it was a mutually beneficial -- and commonly selected -- alliance of two very different species for hunting purposes.

-Oz

Sword_Of_Geddon

Sep 18, 2004, 04:14 PM

I think anything can be tamed, but in order for the animal to become like a modern horse it would take a lot of time, probably more then 1000 years.
Remember that a dog once was a wolf.

There was more than one type of ancient dog besides the wolf though. I think domesticated Dogs are descendants of crossbreeds between different canines. Wolfs can be domesticated, but they know instinctively how to survive without man. They'd have to be domesticatable orginally, or Dogs wouldn't exist today.

W.i.n.t.e.r

Sep 18, 2004, 04:15 PM

Changes in behaviour occurr over long periods of time and numerous generations (in natural evironment). With human involvement and specific crossbreeding techniques there could be a certain change for beneficial permutations within the comming decades (I would doubt that the Zulus had any such sophisticated means- yet, who cares- love the unit too much for reducing it to a peculiarity ;))

nameless53

Sep 18, 2004, 04:25 PM

due to school i wont get much adding/modding done.. but that doesnt mean i stop gathering "food for the winter". Looks like I found a basket of sweet strawberries today!

I will also be looking forward for the arrival of "my angel" :love:

Redking

Sep 18, 2004, 10:17 PM

wuldnt it be possible (not saying that it shoudl eb done, in fact, i think it woudl be a rther big waste of time...) if one could gather all the well-tempered zebras, or at least a popualtion of... oh a fair amount would be 100-150 to make a nice viable population, of the "nicer"; tame and trian, and moreover breed them; it would be possible to (with time) breed a domesticateable version, yes?

Some people persist in trying to domesticate certain animals that have been considered undomesticable (deer are a fine example of this). And yes, the theory is that if the barrier-criteria (in the case of zebras temperment, or in deer their nervousness) is surmountable in a enough specimens that a breeding group should be attainable from which a domesticate can be, over time, developed.

But the problem, as you allude to, is cost/benefit. You got to find a lot of easy-going zebras over a lot of years, and apparently that might not be such an easy task. Couple this with the fact that asses and horses immediately present themselves as better candidates (though horses apparently didn't transmit so well over the so-called African tropical flybelt, which is one reason Europeans did make an early attempt with zebras), and what's the point of trying so hard? Most modern attempts at zebra domestication seem to be for the novelty of the coat; for deer, it's as a alternate food source, and they've tried more persistently with deer in parts of North America and New Zealand.
A second potential obstacle might be that the breed's natural temperment continues to randomly, but significantly, produce specimens with a tendency toward unwanted behavior, despite breeding from more mild-mannered stock. It's a lot of effort to invest with no guarantee of result, and points back again to cost benefit.

Dog domestication is, it seems to me, very convolute, and not so simple as looking a malamute or assuming that some wolves once "hung around the campfire."

BTW, there's an interesting Russian experiment that eventually produced domesticated foxes that exhibit modified oestrus, white tails, and floppy ears. And this sort of goes to the notion that if you really stick to it, some animals previously thought of as undomesticable can be "brought into the fold", just not as easily as old fido and wilbur. What the study really showed, however, was that certain physical traits that delineate the domesticated from the wild stock result from the process of domestication (selection for friendliness toward humans) rather than simply selection of novel physical traits.

- Redking

Ozymandias

Sep 18, 2004, 10:38 PM

Some people persist in trying to domesticate certain animals that have been considered undomesticable (deer are a fine example of this). And yes, the theory is that if the barrier-criteria (in the case of zebras temperment, or in deer their nervousness) is surmountable in a enough specimens that a breeding group should be attainable from which a domesticate can be, over time, developed.

But the problem, as you allude to, is cost/benefit. You got to find a lot of easy-going zebras over a lot of years, and apparently that might not be such an easy task. Couple this with the fact that asses and horses immediately present themselves as better candidates (though horses apparently didn't transmit so well over the so-called African tropical flybelt, which is one reason Europeans did make an early attempt with zebras), and what's the point of trying so hard? Most modern attempts at zebra domestication seem to be for the novelty of the coat; for deer, it's as a alternate food source, and they've tried more persistently with deer in parts of North America and New Zealand.
A second potential obstacle might be that the breed's natural temperment continues to randomly, but significantly, produce specimens with a tendency toward unwanted behavior, despite breeding from more mild-mannered stock. It's a lot of effort to invest with no guarantee of result, and points back again to cost benefit.

Dog domestication is, it seems to me, very convolute, and not so simple as looking a malamute or assuming that some wolves once "hung around the campfire."

BTW, there's an interesting Russian experiment that eventually produced domesticated foxes that exhibit modified oestrus, white tails, and floppy ears. And this sort of goes to the notion that if you really stick to it, some animals previously thought of as undomesticable can be "brought into the fold", just not as easily as old fido and wilbur. What the study really showed, however, was that certain physical traits that delineate the domesticated from the wild stock result from the process of domestication (selection for friendliness toward humans) rather than simply selection of novel physical traits.

- Redking

What Redking said.

;)

Mithadan

Sep 19, 2004, 04:04 AM

Domestication is an inherent evil anyway! :evil:

Hikaro Takayama

Sep 19, 2004, 05:29 AM

But the problem, as you allude to, is cost/benefit. You got to find a lot of easy-going zebras over a lot of years, and apparently that might not be such an easy task. Couple this with the fact that asses and horses immediately present themselves as better candidates (though horses apparently didn't transmit so well over the so-called African tropical flybelt, which is one reason Europeans did make an early attempt with zebras), and what's the point of trying so hard? Most modern attempts at zebra domestication seem to be for the novelty of the coat; for deer, it's as a alternate food source, and they've tried more persistently with deer in parts of North America and New Zealand.

I don't see why anyone would bother with trying to domesticate deer in North America. If you wanted to set up a deer farming operation, all you need is about 10 acres of mixed woodland and medows, and I guarantee that within a few years you'll have several hundred deer on your property. All you have to do then is just put up the ol' "No Tresspassing" signs, put in for all applicable deer licenses for your state, and you should be able to bring in at least one good sized deer a year for food.

If deer were easily domesticable, I'd definitely rather eat them than cattle. The main reasons are that deer aren't as hard on the environment as cattle. As an added benifit, venison is leaner has less cholesterol and tastes better than beef.

Redking

Sep 19, 2004, 08:24 AM

Domestication is an inherent evil anyway! :evil:

That sounds like an entre to an argument in the vein of proselytising, something PETA-types (if that's indeed what you are) seem to have in common with Jehovah's Witnesses and other people I'd just as soon shoot at as look at.

You may thank that "inherent evil" for the computer you just typed on, along with every other feature of civilization that you enjoy.

- Redking.

Mithadan

Sep 19, 2004, 10:44 AM

That sounds like an entre to an argument in the vein of proselytising, something PETA-types (if that's indeed what you are) seem to have in common with Jehovah's Witnesses and other people I'd just as soon shoot at as look at.

You may thank that "inherent evil" for the computer you just typed on, along with every other feature of civilization that you enjoy.

- Redking.:love:
No no, I'm a hunter. Way more subversive than pansy-@$$ed fruitarian hedonists etc., whom, in my younger days, I had on the imaginary hit-list. :satan: Hikaro Takayama's my guy on the deer topic, dude.

And no, don't wanna start no argument, do no preaching, just felt like throwing a jab into the domesticating zebra talk for a bit of fun. But on the computer bit, yes, just because I recognise the evil in my life doesn't mean I can extricate myself from it. I'm no übermensch. But give me a magic button to bring the whole thing crashing down, and by golly, I might just do it. :cringe:

Peace out.

Redking

Sep 19, 2004, 12:49 PM

No no, I'm a hunter.

Okay. Sorry, nevermind.

- Redking

Mithadan

Sep 20, 2004, 11:08 AM

Cheers! :D

Senturion

Sep 20, 2004, 11:34 AM

I think the unit looks really good. Although I haven’t tried it out yet.

Zebras are certainly tameable. However, the four species of African Zebras all have three apparent problems:
1) They are supposedly much more ornery than horses and more uniformly so
2) They will bite a person and not let go
3) They can supposedly elude a lasso because they watch the rope and duck their heads. Apparently even rodeo champions have trouble securing a zebra

The first two problems supposedly get worse with age and apparently zebras injure more zoo keepers in the United States than tigers every year. Elephants are in the game even though they are only tamed and not domesticated. Ancient Egyptians apparently tamed hyenas, cheetahs and giraffes (now there’s a unit for you). But why would someone tame a zebra, which requires a lot of work, for an animal that isn’t really better than a horse? I think that it would still be done if horses were not available or maybe for some kind of social status symbol. As an example, Lord Walter Rothschild was well known as an eccentric who drove a zebra-drawn carriage around London in the 19th Century. But once horses appear it would really be less efficient.

A few people have mentioned Jared Diamond’s Gun’s Germs and Steel here before. That book has a chapter about why so many apparently domesticable species are, in actuality, not. That chapter is called “Zebras, Unhappy Marriages, and the Anna Karenina Principle”. Zebras must be the animal that most taunts humans by appearing to be domesticable.