Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

@ Thunderbrd:
I like the new way animals appear even in Medieval Era and more, wish more would appear.

Also i get an error in the Victory Info, is that anything to do with dll or just python?

Python problem - that whole bit of code is riddled with the possibility of divide by zero errors.:( It is assumed that zero will never happen but you seem to achieve it. :D

The attached should fix that particular problem but I am not 100% sure. I changed the test for <0 to <1 since the code was changing <0 to 1. Goes in the python/screens folder.
 
A department/ministry to me implies a more advanced understanding of politics than what might be known in the middle ages. My community college history classes dont go much into the evolution of bureaucracy but I would assume since the earliest ministries and departments I know about appeared around the same time as people were talking about Social Contracts you could slot a half dozen different "Ministries of X" in there with various with various benefits including but not limited to free infrastructure buildings and reduced maintenance thereof demonstrating a developing more advanced system of central bureaucracy so that local governments don't have to build and maintain absolutely everything (like paved roads, pipes, power lines, rail stations? and the like).

In this sense places like the United States which has a federal don't really have what the game would call a National Bureau of Water or Roads even though there is some regulation it's still largely up to local authorities (IE the city builds it) While unitary governments like Great Britain can be said to have "built the departments of X" as the central government in London decides everything and bears the full weight of the bureaucracy. The United States however did build the Department of Energy national wonder, as its national grid is built, maintained and largely planned by the central government.

I would say it would make more thematic sense for each of these things to be a team project instead of a national wonder but can projects do such things as build buildings and increase/decrease maintenance for specific cities/buildings? If it can I would say cause the project to apply a positive maintenance cost to the palace as representative of central government bureaucracy and subtract maintenance costs from the individual buildings themselves.

If Department of X remains a building i suggest that, instead of applying a positive maintenance cost to the Department of X wonder make it act like a corporation in reverse and Minus 5-10-15 gold or something for every relevant building in the empire. As you continue to build cities those cities would get the free building without maintenance cost but the central government would bear a greater cost burden to maintain it all. EDIT// Economies of scale like this Hoskuld? The more cities you have the greater the cost burden on the city that built the department.

Boy that was a lot of text. Maybe I should stop here and wait for some feedback.
 
A department/ministry to me implies a more advanced understanding of politics than what might be known in the middle ages. My community college history classes dont go much into the evolution of bureaucracy but I would assume since the earliest ministries and departments I know about appeared around the same time as people were talking about Social Contracts you could slot a half dozen different "Ministries of X" in there with various with various benefits including but not limited to free infrastructure buildings and reduced maintenance thereof demonstrating a developing more advanced system of central bureaucracy so that local governments don't have to build and maintain absolutely everything (like paved roads, pipes, power lines, rail stations? and the like).

In this sense places like the United States which has a federal don't really have what the game would call a National Bureau of Water or Roads even though there is some regulation it's still largely up to local authorities (IE the city builds it) While unitary governments like Great Britain can be said to have "built the departments of X" as the central government in London decides everything and bears the full weight of the bureaucracy. The United States however did build the Department of Energy national wonder, as its national grid is built, maintained and largely planned by the central government.

I would say it would make more thematic sense for each of these things to be a team project instead of a national wonder but can projects do such things as build buildings and increase/decrease maintenance for specific cities/buildings? If it can I would say cause the project to apply a positive maintenance cost to the palace as representative of central government bureaucracy and subtract maintenance costs from the individual buildings themselves.

If Department of X remains a building i suggest that, instead of applying a positive maintenance cost to the Department of X wonder make it act like a corporation in reverse and Minus 5-10-15 gold or something for every relevant building in the empire. As you continue to build cities those cities would get the free building without maintenance cost but the central government would bear a greater cost burden to maintain it all. EDIT// Economies of scale like this Hoskuld? The more cities you have the greater the cost burden on the city that built the department.

Boy that was a lot of text. Maybe I should stop here and wait for some feedback.

Bureaucracies have been around for a long time, in early times they were just government or "royal". Latter when the west learned much more about organizing them from the east (India and China in particular) they became bigger and companies started using them.

I would go for a minister/vizier of whatever early on, upgrade it to a ministry/"guild" in the middle ages then to a department/legal code in the modern era. These would replace the settler upgrade units as far as free buildings went.

Team Projects can't provide free buildings, it can provide commerce modifiers but I am not sure that includes maintenance. I have never worked on corporations except converting between RoM versions so can't comment on that idea. The problem there would be spreading the corporation to each city.

How about, for example, three buildings, taking the pipes example. Normal pipes as they are now with their maintenance cost. "Pipes II" = water pipes without the maintenance cost and replaces pipes but not buildable. Department of Water provides free pipes II to each city? personally I would require the Dept. require a center of government ie palace, forbidden palace, Abu Simbal, etc.
 
Python problem - that whole bit of code is riddled with the possibility of divide by zero errors.:( It is assumed that zero will never happen but you seem to achieve it. :D

The attached should fix that particular problem but I am not 100% sure. I changed the test for <0 to <1 since the code was changing <0 to 1. Goes in the python/screens folder.

Thx, i really appreciate the QUICK response, all i need now is that coding for the HC Mod and i am set for an Update tomorrow.:whipped::joke:

Also "we" must be getting some stuff corrected, i for the FIRST time have never seen this before, a Barbarian Army in the Medieval Era, taking over cities on Epic Speed, and the first time i have seen an Espionage icon in the GP area?;)
 
@DH: It all depends on where you center your corporate headquarters... it MUST be where you build Wall Street etc... Without the buildings that are adding so much additional % upkeep in play, you simply need to get more than +100% gold in the city with the corp headquarters and adopt civics that reduce the corporate upkeep and you would pull a profit, especially if you get your corp's spread throughout other civs' territories, a great way to cripple them financially as they are paying the corp (you) and getting no return from the headquarters (though you are often empowering their production, food or cultural output so its best done cautiously.) Making sure courthouses and anything else you can find to reduce upkeep percentage is critical to pulling a profit as well. This is why +% upkeep buildings become more worth it to avoid building entirely or destroy once corps enter play because even +5% upkeep is no worthy price to pay for an additional unhealth (maybe happiness but its still stretching it.)

@StrategyOnly: I'm really liking the way animals still spawn as well. My wife even mentioned that last night. To increase the presence of animal spawns, we'd have to find a way to increase overall barb spawns without taking more away from barbarians... you may have noticed they aren't as plentiful now because roughly half of them should be animals instead.

And that error is Python only. Not to say there isn't some issue in the dll making the python not work quite as intended but it'd be very tough to figure out what. I haven't messed with hardly anything in Py files except to give a plugin for manipulating the DP mechanisms with Py if a modder wished so anything coming up there shouldn't be a result of any of my tampering. I'll really have to learn Python eventually but its a whole study there...

Edit: oh... that's a Great Spy chance there... funny you've never seen that up there before. And in our current game, barbs completely destroyed a civ with 4 cities. They are far more powerful than civilizations because the civs lag terribly from horrible ai decisions. As mentioned before, they need to be given more cause to build their production and food source buildings as a priority, even over military until they are up to speed.
 
Thx, i really appreciate the QUICK response, all i need now is that coding for the HC Mod and i am set for an Update tomorrow.:whipped::joke:

Also "we" must be getting some stuff corrected, i for the FIRST time have never seen this before, a Barbarian Army in the Medieval Era, taking over cities on Epic Speed, and the first time i have seen an Espionage icon in the GP area?;)

There is noting in OV's stuff which suggests any need to change BUG code for the unit naming mod, it should be getting all it needs from the XML. So I must have missed something.

I have reinstalled C2C 8, with Hydro 9, your XML and my small upgrades. I am getting unit graphic errors and have not been able to progress the Great Doctor stuff much. I don't think it will be ready today but I will see. I still need to figure out what other changes I have made as well.
 
There is noting in OV's stuff which suggests any need to change BUG code for the unit naming mod, it should be getting all it needs from the XML. So I must have missed something.

I don't think it will be ready today but I will see. I still need to figure out what other changes I have made as well.

Yeah been to many changes so i doubt your going to get a good copy until the update.


btw thx the Victory Screen works now.;)
 
I've been wanting to chime in on this subject for a while now. In fact, waaay back from when you did your Fire Brigades mod.

I do all I can to avoid building ANY building with an upkeep percentage increase. This is because the perception of these increases doesn't seem too bad when you initially get the ability to build these buildings. But as stated, when corporations begin to spread they become ultra lethal overnight. Its not so bad since you can destroy the buildings once corporations come around but that's a very time consuming and potentially buggy process, so its better to just not build them, graveyards, public pools, fire halls, etc... all of it. I avoid it all and try to solve happiness and unhealth problems through other means. Because if I don't, the upkeep will destroy my economy down the road. I mean, if you build just a Fire Brigade in every city it will literally cost you thousands of gold per round when corporations are fully spread.

This means that while the concept you're working under appears balanced at first, thanks to getting some gold bonus buildings to balance things out, in the long run, it doesn't.

The idea of upkeep does include bureaucracy at work but it also includes crime rate and the effect of chaos (thus why courthouses reduce % upkeep). The only way to go back to rebalancing these buildings is either to give us enough buildings that reduce upkeep percentage or to give them a flat rate gold upkeep. The latter seems a good suggestion considering that this will make them a bit more appropriate for the earlier game too. That would make for an easier way to balance them overall as you can put into play a roughly equivalent subtraction of gold to the additions of gold you've included. In the early stages, the percentage upkeep actually does very little and is not costing enough.

At the moment, I'm at the tail end of the rennaissance and I'm pulling over 3k gold per turn on 100% research on Deity level play (increased to this level gradually). Since corporations aren't in play yet, I have very little upkeep and a lot of buildings bringing in gold. Once I get corporations out there, if I'm not careful with what I choose to build, I'll drop down to about 80% research to stay in the positive. In simple BtS play, corporations, if done correctly, will give me a net profit.

I love a lot of the new buildings but this issue really needs addressing and reconsidering! It should not be better to avoid building water departments and fire brigades than it is to build them. At the moment, it is better not to build them and allow unhealth if needbe.

I like your idea of negative gold to represent "Taxes" instead of "maintenance". Would you mind tracking down all the maintenance buildings you think that should be changed so I know what to change? That would really help me fix things.

How about, for example, three buildings, taking the pipes example. Normal pipes as they are now with their maintenance cost. "Pipes II" = water pipes without the maintenance cost and replaces pipes but not buildable. Department of Water provides free pipes II to each city? personally I would require the Dept. require a center of government ie palace, forbidden palace, Abu Simbal, etc.

I like this idea but a few questions ...

1. How do you make a building "unbuildable"?
2. Pipes II is a weird name. Maybe something like "Subsidized Water Pipes". What do you think?
3. What tech should DoW be moved to? Or should it stay where it is?
4. If its linked to the Palace then there may not be enough National Wonder slots left for it. I play with limited wonders and want to keep my mods compliant to that. What if it required one of the City Hall buildings? Like a higher up one so small cities could not get it but big ones could?
 
Yeah been to many changes so i doubt your going to get a good copy until the update.

I am pretty sure all you need to do is add this like an Archer?

Spoiler :
Code:
if (not gc.getPlayer(pCity.getOwner()).isFeatAccomplished(FeatTypes.FEAT_UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER)):

		if (pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString("UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER")):
		
			gc.getPlayer(pCity.getOwner()).setFeatAccomplished(FeatTypes.FEAT_UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER, True)
			
			if (featPopup(pCity.getOwner()) and (gc.getGame().getStartYear() == gc.getDefineINT("START_YEAR"))):
				popupInfo = CyPopupInfo()
				popupInfo.setButtonPopupType(ButtonPopupTypes.BUTTONPOPUP_PYTHON)
				popupInfo.setData1(FeatTypes.FEAT_UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER)
				popupInfo.setData2(pCity.getID())
				popupInfo.setText(localText.getText("TXT_KEY_FEAT_UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER", (pUnit.getNameKey(), pCity.getNameKey(), )))
				popupInfo.setOnClickedPythonCallback("featAccomplishedOnClickedCallback")
				popupInfo.setOnFocusPythonCallback("featAccomplishedOnFocusCallback")
				popupInfo.addPythonButton(localText.getText("TXT_KEY_FEAT_ACCOMPLISHED_OK", ()), "")
				popupInfo.addPythonButton(localText.getText("TXT_KEY_FEAT_ACCOMPLISHED_MORE", ()), "")
				popupInfo.addPopup(pCity.getOwner())

in CvAdvisorUtils.py:confused::crazyeye:


btw thx the Victory Screen works now.;)

Interestingly enough there is noting in that code for any of the "new" RoM unit combat types so why isn't it failing for RoM or AND. Why is it failing only for this unit combat? I will need to run a game with that option and logging on to see what is happening. Unless you have a full set of logs where that error occurs.
 
I like your idea of negative gold to represent "Taxes" instead of "maintenance". Would you mind tracking down all the maintenance buildings you think that should be changed so I know what to change? That would really help me fix things.

Sure... I'l have to go through the civopedia later tonight to identify them all. Another thought may be reflective of what you were originally intending... -Gold/population (so long as its not TOO drastic (like in measurements of .1 to 1 depending on the effectiveness of the building.). Or -% gold (not commerce and probably somewhere between 1-5% and balancable by other buildings). Either of thse would replicate the growing cost for expanding need without interfering with the corporation structure.

However, I'm not certain this couldn't lead to some xml errors but its worth a shot anyhow and possibly reparable by adjusting the data type of a given number or boil things down to a min 1 or 0 in the final equation before it causes problems... if I look up my c++ references I can figure out how to make a few simple changes that would allow this if errors are being generated.
 
Sure... I'l have to go through the civopedia later tonight to identify them all. Another thought may be reflective of what you were originally intending... -Gold/population (so long as its not TOO drastic (like in measurements of .1 to 1 depending on the effectiveness of the building.). Or -% gold (not commerce and probably somewhere between 1-5% and balancable by other buildings). Either of thse would replicate the growing cost for expanding need without interfering with the corporation structure.

However, I'm not certain this couldn't lead to some xml errors but its worth a shot anyhow and possibly reparable by adjusting the data type of a given number or boil things down to a min 1 or 0 in the final equation before it causes problems... if I look up my c++ references I can figure out how to make a few simple changes that would allow this if errors are being generated.

Do you think i should go straight -gold like how farms give straight + gold or do you think it should be -% gold?

In addition how much maintenance should each building be adjusted? Should it be a straight conversion of maintenance value to gold value or should it be reduces or increased, and by how much?

EDIT: Also please do not try to be "helpful" and edit the files yourself. I have a version already with bug changes and I don't want to have to go in and fix all the other bug changes again when trying to merge files. In short just list them all and I will go in and change them myself.
 
StrategyOnly minor Subdue Animals changes attached. I think I got most of the requested ones but since I am trying to get some AI in there, along with the "butcher" action, I may have missed a few. Should move all the "cages" to trade and reduce the movement of the subdued crocs.


I like your idea of negative gold to represent "Taxes" instead of "maintenance". Would you mind tracking down all the maintenance buildings you think that should be changed so I know what to change? That would really help me fix things.



I like this idea but a few questions ...

1. How do you make a building "unbuildable"?
2. Pipes II is a weird name. Maybe something like "Subsidized Water Pipes". What do you think?
3. What tech should DoW be moved to? Or should it stay where it is?
4. If its linked to the Palace then there may not be enough National Wonder slots left for it. I play with limited wonders and want to keep my mods compliant to that. What if it required one of the City Hall buildings? Like a higher up one so small cities could not get it but big ones could?

1) Same way the animal and GP buildings are <iCost>-1</iCost>;)
2) naming is up to you I was just typing as I combined my thoughts.
4) There are five or more "center of government" buildings in C2C some are wonders some are national wonders so your idea is better since you can't get all. (Edinbrugh Castle was another)
 
Just out of interest, was the following problem ever fixed in this mod?

The Lumber Camp being able to be constructed without the prerequisite Forest or Jungle in the city radius? Same goes for the Nut Cracking Stone.

IF it was could someone be so kind as to tell me how it was solved?
 
Just make it not a wonder at all but tied to the Palace and or Forbidden Palace.

I suggested Social Contract but there's also economics representing the economic knowhow to cost effectively operate a national system of whatever.
 
Just out of interest, was the following problem ever fixed in this mod?

The Lumber Camp being able to be constructed without the prerequisite Forest or Jungle in the city radius? Same goes for the Nut Cracking Stone.

IF it was could someone be so kind as to tell me how it was solved?

The code is in for it telling it to do so but for some reason it will not do it. So no its not fixed. However I have no idea what to put as an alternative requirement without making the lumber camp super rare if I add it to Prime Timber. Any ideas would be appreciated. But better would be if someone who knows how to edit the PYTHON code could actually fix it.

Just make it not a wonder at all but tied to the Palace and or Forbidden Palace.

I suggested Social Contract but there's also economics representing the economic knowhow to cost effectively operate a national system of whatever.

1. And then what happens if you move your palace? Won't this mean that it can be built in any city with the palace?

2. Isn't that a little late?
 
Interestingly enough there is noting in that code for any of the "new" RoM unit combat types so why isn't it failing for RoM or AND. Why is it failing only for this unit combat? I will need to run a game with that option and logging on to see what is happening. Unless you have a full set of logs where that error occurs.

Sure here are the logs:
 
Do you think i should go straight -gold like how farms give straight + gold or do you think it should be -% gold?

In addition how much maintenance should each building be adjusted? Should it be a straight conversion of maintenance value to gold value or should it be reduces or increased, and by how much?

EDIT: Also please do not try to be "helpful" and edit the files yourself. I have a version already with bug changes and I don't want to have to go in and fix all the other bug changes again when trying to merge files. In short just list them all and I will go in and change them myself.

Not a problem there. I wouldn't intrude on your design like that.

As for the first question there, I was thinking -1 gold per +5% maintenance as it currently stands. Keep in mind this is reducing the base and thus going to have greater impact as you come to rely more and more on +% gold buildings. This would impose between -1 and -5 gold which would equate to a lot more than that when +% gold buildings are then impacted as the base reduces.

If you'd like to go with -% gold, then perhaps -2 or 3% per +5% maintenance as it currently stands. This would have to be watched carefully though as you would NOT want to go into less than 0% gold output. That'd likely be cause for an error and would mean you're getting no gold no matter how much you work the land etc... So moderate #s like 2 or 3% would keep things reasonable. That would make a +25% maintenance = between -10 and -15% gold. Some serious numbers indeed at that point.

These suggestions would place the costs somewhere in the realm I expect you intended. Could be you meant it to be even less. I tend to lean towards -% gold to reflect the city costing more to staff a larger infrastructure as it grows. It takes more firemen, stations, equipment and supplies to cover a size 50 city than a size 10. But then, the problem with this theory is that it is not parallelling the need as much as a price per population would.

On a price per population, I'd assign a straight -.1 gold per current 5% maintenance per population. Thus 1 gold per 10 population/5% current maintenance cost. That would make a +25% maintenance cost building cost 5 gold per 10 population. This seems reasonable given that we also have the capability to give some buildings the opposite benefit. Such a system would be more reflective of 'maintenance' that doesn't mess with corps.
 
On a price per population, I'd assign a straight -.1 gold per current 5% maintenance per population. Thus 1 gold per 10 population/5% current maintenance cost. That would make a +25% maintenance cost building cost 5 gold per 10 population. This seems reasonable given that we also have the capability to give some buildings the opposite benefit. Such a system would be more reflective of 'maintenance' that doesn't mess with corps.

Is this even possible to do? First setting a number in decimals? I thought they had to be whole numbers. In addition can you even do gold per population? If they can what code do I need to fill in to make it work?
 
AFAIK, the code in CvAdvisorUtils only controls those 'congratulations' screens which tell you that you have built your first unit of that unitclass.

Then do you have any idea what is going on?
 
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