Do you mean this error:
IIRC that error appears when you add a new unitcombat that hasn't been defined in (I'm not sure if these are the correct names in C2C) Python/BUG/Tabs/BUGUnitNameOptionsTab.py and Config/Unit Naming.xml.
Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)
- Thread starter strategyonly
- Start date
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Ahhh my mistake, i was thinking UnitCombat but really thinking UnitClass, but your right my mind mixed them up, it should be UnitNamingOptionTab, DUH
OK i got it working thx.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Reminder, Update Deadline today CST, USA 3
M
M
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Hmm... maybe we can't. Probably best to go with a straight percent mod then.
Ok, so I went through the civopedia last night and found the following buildings have a + to maintenance %. I don't think you'd want to remove it from ALL of them... perhaps we should just consider this % to be a reflection of crime rate... that might keep it in the right ball park. Under this consideration, there are other buildings that you may wish to ADD some maintenance % penalties.
In general, this list falls into 4 categories of buildings: Public Utilities, Leisure, Defense, and Beauracracy. IMO, Public Utilities should be converted to a % gold penalty. Leisure should remain maintenance if it would enhance the crime rate such as in the case of Saloons etc, and otherwise reflect a slight loss of production (-1 hammer, etc...). Defense should be a flat rate gold cost. Beauracracy, a percentage gold penalty (very slight) PLUS a reduced maintenance penalty (1/2 to 1/4 of what it currently stands at) to reflect abuses of the system.
Anyhow, that's how I would go about it myself... I could be totally off. There is one building on here that should have a REVERSE effect on maintenance, and that would be the Police Station.
So, without further comment, here are the buildings that currently increase maintenance costs:
Airfield
Aquarium
Arena
Ballroom
Battlebot Arena
Biofuel Power Plant
Biomass Power Plant
Booby Traps
Bus Station
Castle
Cistern
Citadel
City Council
City Gatehouse
Cruise Ship Port
Desalination Plant
Drama School
Fairgrounds
Farm Supply
Fencing Academy
Fighting Pit
Fire Brigade
Fire Dock
Fire Hangar
Fire Hydrants
Fire Station
Florist
Garbage Collection Agency
Geothermal Power Plant
Gladiatorial School
Graveyard
Greenhouse
Guild Hall
Hammam
High Tech Coal Power Plant
Ice Rink
Igloo
Insane Assylum
Jousting Tournament
Landmines
Major League Stadium
Manor
Mechanical Traps
Methane Power Plant
Metropolitan Administration
Microwave Power Plant
Minor League Stadium
Music School
Natural Gas Powerplant
Paved Roads
Personal Rapid Train
Petting Zoo
Pit Traps
Police Station
Power Lines
Public Pool
Public Transportation
Ranger Station
Recreation Center
Recycling Center
Reservoir
Retirement Home
Robotic Traps
Saloon
Security Center
Servant's Quarter
Sewer System
Ski Resort
Social Services
Solar Mirror Array
Solar Photovoltaic Power Plant
Solar Photovoltaic Roofs
Solar Power Satellite
Speedway
State Park
Super Coal Power Plant
Telephone Network
Throne Room
Tidal Farm
Town Hall
Town Watch
Town Well
Townclock
Vacation Resort
Village Hall
Waste Incinerator Power Plant
Water Pipes
Water Pumping Station
Water Raceway
Water Tower
Water Treatment Plant
Wave Farm
Weather Station
Welfare Office
Wind Farm
Wind Water Pump
Zero G Sports Arena
Zoo
That's 89 buildings that create increased maintenance... Its no wonder Corporations (and even guilds) cost so much!
As a side note, after some discussion yesterday, we feel that some of the buildings, such as the fire depts etc, could be made more useful (currently just a way to combat unhealth ever so slightly) by making them required for easy fixes to frequent disastrous events. Some of the events we have could take some tampering to adjust to this idea... forest fires for example... with a fire dept or such in the nearby city, the option to take care of it without cost could come up. This would be a neat way to make such buildings indespensable and be more reflective of the actual reason the real world finds them to be. I figure that concept might inspire even more buildings with similar purposes. (evacuation centers anyone?)
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Ahhh my mistake, i was thinking UnitCombat but really thinking UnitClass, but your right my mind mixed them up, it should be UnitNamingOptionTab, DUH
OK i got it working thx.
I wonder why OV did not need to set it in his mod?
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
He doesnt use BUG.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Thunderbrd
Before I change anything you keep talking about maintenance representing "crime", but I thought revolutions (stability/instability) and espionage represented crime.
Actually we wanted to add a Flammability mod awhile back. It would work like this ...
Flammability Mod
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=350255
Note this list is for old AND and not for C2C so there may be more type of increase or decrease buildings.
If anyone knows how to link events to buildings so they either increase or decrease the likely-hood of fires then please let me know.
Before I change anything you keep talking about maintenance representing "crime", but I thought revolutions (stability/instability) and espionage represented crime.
Actually we wanted to add a Flammability mod awhile back. It would work like this ...
Flammability Mod
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=350255
Note this list is for old AND and not for C2C so there may be more type of increase or decrease buildings.
If anyone knows how to link events to buildings so they either increase or decrease the likely-hood of fires then please let me know.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Yes he does.
Or at least in part for his Health Care mod, it has BUG folders and everything. Only they are for the doctor specialist. Maybe it was just an example in this case.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Espionage would represent international spying and stopping international crimes, even committing international crimes on a state level.
Revolutions would represent an anti-state sentiment... people being unhappy with their govt and what they wish to do about it.
But Maintenance was originally established as the way to measure internal crime rate, stemming from a new way to reinvent the old CivIII system of Crime Rate. Maintenance comes from tax evasion, theft, organized crime, skimming, scams, the spread of drug abuse etc... In short, it is the cost on society that is incurred from criminal behavior. Or at least that was what it was set to represent initially. Thus courthouses have always, since vanilla, reduced Maintenance. Why Shinto buildings, aka, a culture of honor, reduces maintenance. Why the farther you get from the capital, the more the public feels disconnected from a sense of national pride that may guide them into more pro-societal behavior. (Snake oil salesmen, gunfighters, and prostitutes primarily operated in the west US on the frontiers rather than closer to the root of the US civilization in the east)
The positive angle of crime is that it can be harnessed for the purpose of military intelligence as those who seek to spy on us, sneak through borders illegally, fugitives from other governments etc are often discovered and probed through normal law enforcement activities, thus why jails etc are giving us espionage as well.
In fact, with some of the techs you've proposed, perhaps just their discovery should increase maintenance % (drug trade for example). Police stations and the like would combat the naturally growing phenomenons of crime thus reducing maintenance that should continue to grow otherwise as a result of increasing human intelligence finding new ways to exploit societal structure.
This is the way I see it... not saying its the only way to view the game theory.
Oh... and I love the idea of the flammability mod... such percentages could plug in nicely with a random event process.
Revolutions would represent an anti-state sentiment... people being unhappy with their govt and what they wish to do about it.
But Maintenance was originally established as the way to measure internal crime rate, stemming from a new way to reinvent the old CivIII system of Crime Rate. Maintenance comes from tax evasion, theft, organized crime, skimming, scams, the spread of drug abuse etc... In short, it is the cost on society that is incurred from criminal behavior. Or at least that was what it was set to represent initially. Thus courthouses have always, since vanilla, reduced Maintenance. Why Shinto buildings, aka, a culture of honor, reduces maintenance. Why the farther you get from the capital, the more the public feels disconnected from a sense of national pride that may guide them into more pro-societal behavior. (Snake oil salesmen, gunfighters, and prostitutes primarily operated in the west US on the frontiers rather than closer to the root of the US civilization in the east)
The positive angle of crime is that it can be harnessed for the purpose of military intelligence as those who seek to spy on us, sneak through borders illegally, fugitives from other governments etc are often discovered and probed through normal law enforcement activities, thus why jails etc are giving us espionage as well.
In fact, with some of the techs you've proposed, perhaps just their discovery should increase maintenance % (drug trade for example). Police stations and the like would combat the naturally growing phenomenons of crime thus reducing maintenance that should continue to grow otherwise as a result of increasing human intelligence finding new ways to exploit societal structure.
This is the way I see it... not saying its the only way to view the game theory.
Oh... and I love the idea of the flammability mod... such percentages could plug in nicely with a random event process.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Oh, I always though "maintenance" was like repairing broken things. Keeping the various buildings from falling into decay. That's why places like parks need maintained in order to keep their lawns moved and shrubs trimmed. Or power plants which need need constant maintenance to keep them running.
Note when i say "maintenance" i no not mean the same "maintenance" that units have. That I assume is feeding, clothing, housing and training your units.
However i am still a bit confused on what "maintenance" really means. One sources says it is this ...
This seems really vague of what it represents. Do you know or have a better explanation?
In addition what is representing "upkeep" of buildings then?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
In a lot of ways, I think the Civ designers were a little vague on purpose, allowing it to be left to a number of interpretations.
However, in this particular case, where we are really becoming much more specific with realism and detail, and where we have so much greater 'reality resolution' as it were, we are finding some of the functions of the game are being disrupted as we outgrow some of the basic model.
In other words, so much maintenance destroys the profitability or even feasability of guilds and corporations. I'm sure the game designers intended maintenance to include upkeep... I think I read somewhere that it was BOTH crime and upkeep. In Vanilla, this vagueness was functional.
But I believe WE need to split up the two so that we can make the buildings have more purpose and meaning individually and so that we can maintain game balance.
Therefore, if we continue to consider maintenance a hemorrhage cost of crime and establish the alternative of -gold% / -flat rate gold cost/round to represent the cost of maintaining against natural decay or of staffing governmental employees, then we would find ourselves in both a more workable AND realistic environment.
Does anyone else agree/disagree?
However, in this particular case, where we are really becoming much more specific with realism and detail, and where we have so much greater 'reality resolution' as it were, we are finding some of the functions of the game are being disrupted as we outgrow some of the basic model.
In other words, so much maintenance destroys the profitability or even feasability of guilds and corporations. I'm sure the game designers intended maintenance to include upkeep... I think I read somewhere that it was BOTH crime and upkeep. In Vanilla, this vagueness was functional.
But I believe WE need to split up the two so that we can make the buildings have more purpose and meaning individually and so that we can maintain game balance.
Therefore, if we continue to consider maintenance a hemorrhage cost of crime and establish the alternative of -gold% / -flat rate gold cost/round to represent the cost of maintaining against natural decay or of staffing governmental employees, then we would find ourselves in both a more workable AND realistic environment.
Does anyone else agree/disagree?
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
New UPDATE: 23 Feb 7:30 am
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Ok then that explains things a bit. So i was not totally wrong in interpreting "maintenance". However now I do not understand why corporations use the same "maintenance" if its crime.
I am all for establishing what stat represents what. Personally I wish there was a separate +/- "crime" stat that we could fill in separate from maintenance.
In addition if maintenance is representing "crime" should say schools and eduction help reduce crime?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@strategyonly
So i was going over the game for v9 and what is going on with all the Apache units all over the place? The unit upgrade tree is showing their units too. At any rate I think the Apache should be converted to a "Wonder Civ" rather than a playable civ. I was not going to do it yet but this update forces me to start on this then.
Like i have said before "Wonder Civs" are like extra civs that you can add to your own. Each civ will have an Embassy wonder which unlocks their buildings and then those buildings unlock units. I was going to have each embassy linked to city vicitnity but it may make it more interesting if they were linked to buildings. You can read more about it here.
So lets go over what the Apache Embassy should have. Lets say 1 unit, 1 building and 1 promotion so we don't go overboard since that's more or less what other civs get (not counting the promotion).
Apache Embassy
Req Tech: Calvary Tactics
Req Resources: Horses
Req Terrain: Desert
Bonus: Gives Apache Endurance
Unit
- Apache Cavalry (Use and rename the Red Sleeves' Warrior)
Building
- Apache Pueblo (+1 Food from Desert tiles)
Promotions
- Apache Endurance (Cavalry get +1 Movement)
What do you think?
So i was going over the game for v9 and what is going on with all the Apache units all over the place? The unit upgrade tree is showing their units too. At any rate I think the Apache should be converted to a "Wonder Civ" rather than a playable civ. I was not going to do it yet but this update forces me to start on this then.
Like i have said before "Wonder Civs" are like extra civs that you can add to your own. Each civ will have an Embassy wonder which unlocks their buildings and then those buildings unlock units. I was going to have each embassy linked to city vicitnity but it may make it more interesting if they were linked to buildings. You can read more about it here.
So lets go over what the Apache Embassy should have. Lets say 1 unit, 1 building and 1 promotion so we don't go overboard since that's more or less what other civs get (not counting the promotion).
Apache Embassy
Req Tech: Calvary Tactics
Req Resources: Horses
Req Terrain: Desert
Bonus: Gives Apache Endurance
Unit
- Apache Cavalry (Use and rename the Red Sleeves' Warrior)
Building
- Apache Pueblo (+1 Food from Desert tiles)
Promotions
- Apache Endurance (Cavalry get +1 Movement)
What do you think?
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
@strategyonly
So i was going over the game for v9 and what is going on with all the Apache units all over the place? The unit upgrade tree is showing their units too. At any rate I think the Apache should be converted to a "Wonder Civ" rather than a playable civ. I was not going to do it yet but this update forces me to start on this then.
Like i have said before "Wonder Civs" are like extra civs that you can add to your own. Each civ will have an Embassy wonder which unlocks their buildings and then those buildings unlock units. I was going to have each embassy linked to city vicitnity but it may make it more interesting if they were linked to buildings. You can read more about it here.
So lets go over what the Apache Embassy should have. Lets say 1 unit, 1 building and 1 promotion so we don't go overboard since that's more or less what other civs get (not counting the promotion).
Apache Embassy
Req Tech: Calvary Tactics
Req Resources: Horses
Req Terrain: Desert
Bonus: Gives Apache Endurance
Unit
- Apache Cavalry (Use and rename the Red Sleeves' Warrior)
Building
- Apache Pueblo (+1 Food from Desert tiles)
Promotions
- Apache Endurance (Cavalry get +1 Movement)
What do you think?
Yeah i tried everything i could to get the EXTRA units only to show up with the Apache Civ, but for some odd reason it just wont work, but if you also notice, if you play a different civ, even if they are seen there, you will NOT be able to play any of them, because i have made the (weird) units have a PreqBuilding that only the Apache can build. I think i have put over 10 hours into it, just trying to figure what the heck is going on and why they SHOW-UP
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Sure... sounds like a good interpretation.
Corp's use the same maintenance because they were an afterthought. Maintenance is a general drain on the income represented in a percentage though I don't know the full equation exactly. The reason maintenance impacts us so heavily when corporations get involved is because each city has to pay corporate dues which are 100% higher when maintenance in that city is 100%. Corporations are set to provide 10 gold or so for every city that has adopted the corporation (generated through the corporate headquarters) and if that city has most of the buildings built there that heavily impact +gold percentage, its very feasible to gain a profit (most corps will not cost more than 20 or so gold per city if maintenance is properly managed - this can become overwhelming though if you oversupply a corporation with its resources as the amount of dues paid goes up with extra resources...(on regular BTS))
Regardless, Corporations probably should well fit into the maintenance mold as being heavily impacted by it. This is because the most costly of all crimes involve white collar high level scheming to shuffle money in illegal ways to profit and the corporate system does breed this sort of abuse - the more powerful the corporation the more likely and costly the abuse. That said, if maintenance can be controlled by effective economic systems and law enforcement combined with genius money management in the seat of the corporate headquarters (wall street etc...), the impact and frequency of such crimes can be effectively managed. Governments making wise decisions about how to manage corporations SHOULD profit on corporations... not saying they always will even in a well balanced system as there are many factors involved there.
IRT Apache units... not a problem if you begin on Prehistoric age but if you begin later the Alchesay does get assigned out as the best available recon unit to a random civ (usually player 1). Otherwise, the workaround with the War Pole works fine but everyone sees him darkened out as if they could somehow access him eventually. He's not the only one in this situation. I'm not sure if there's another way to go about setting those sorts of special units up... many of the pirate units work very similarly but don't have the problem of being a recon unit and thus randomly assignable on a later age start. Still, I consider it a minor issue. (This is all coming from the playtesting of the extra civs as they were when I grabbed them a while back... not sure if you've made any changes in this newer release... downloading it now.)
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Yeah i tried everything i could to get the EXTRA units only to show up with the Apache Civ, but for some odd reason it just wont work, but if you also notice, if you play a different civ, even if they are seen there, you will NOT be able to play any of them, because i have made the (weird) units have a PreqBuilding that only the Apache can build. I think i have put over 10 hours into it, just trying to figure what the heck is going on and why they SHOW-UP
Well since it is buggy and we don't particularly need another core civ I think it should be taken out and converted.
In fact I was thinking about making an even more customizable civilization. Do you think it would be possible for your starting civ to be generic and then as you advance it forms into the type of civilization you want? Note this is like way out there but it got me thinking if it was even possible that perhaps at key techs like cultural identity could could pick out your civ type and at chiefdom pick out your leader traits.
I have no idea what the AI would do but it would be interesting to be able to further customize your civ. Maybe even make a civ more unique from any of the existing ones and unique to you. Perhaps the embassy wonders you obtain could influence which type of civ you will become.
Please give feedback on this. I would like to thoroughly brainstorm on this before we commit to anything so extreme.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I've been considering something similar but yeah, that would take a long time to develop so it hasn't been quite on the radar for even putting forward for debate yet.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Right now i dont want to go off on the beatin' path. Lets stick to the plan and start going on to the next era, then the next, and get those turn times down. Then once "we" get what we want then we can go wild with stuff. Hows that sound?
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I got a waiting for ever bug
v9 straight. I hadn't got around to starting to put new stuff in yet.
The immigration mod has a couple of things not working properly. Button hover over help for one. I think I know how to fix it so will. I need to be able to figure it out for the Subdue Animals mod also.
I think I now have the algorithm for "obsoleting" processes worked out so I will try to do that also. This means that if you can do "meager research" and "lesser research" then only the button for "lesser research" will show up. It won't necessarily convert cities that are doing the meager to the lesser, although I probably could do that to.
v9 straight. I hadn't got around to starting to put new stuff in yet.The immigration mod has a couple of things not working properly. Button hover over help for one. I think I know how to fix it so will. I need to be able to figure it out for the Subdue Animals mod also.
I think I now have the algorithm for "obsoleting" processes worked out so I will try to do that also. This means that if you can do "meager research" and "lesser research" then only the button for "lesser research" will show up. It won't necessarily convert cities that are doing the meager to the lesser, although I probably could do that to.
