Feedback: Corporations

[Xyth]

So far in History Rewritten I've not touched Corporations at all, other than shuffling them around the techtree a little. However, I've recently been trying to design new buildings and resource interactions for the late game and I'm not going to be able to do this effectively without considering Corporations first.

I know that some people dislike the mechanic altogether and certain ones can be pretty overpowered. With HR's new resources the obvious suggestion is to add new Corporations but I'd like people's feedback first on what they like or dislike about the general mechanic and any suggestions you might have to improve it or balance it better.

 

[Howard Mahler]

I think the first thing is to try to balance the corporations a little bit, both compared to the rest of the game and with respect to each other.

Sid's Sushi is the obvious offender as being too strong.
A lot of culture and a lot of food!

Also on bigger maps, the effects scale up in two ways:
1. You tend to have more of each resource.
2. You can spread a corporation to more of your cities.

It might be a good idea to have the effect depend on both the number of resources and the number of cities. There should be a minimum effect and a maximum effect, but within that the more resources the bigger the effect per city, but the more cities affected the smaller the effect per city. Just a thought.

 

[Azoth]

I know that some people dislike the mechanic altogether and certain ones can be pretty overpowered. With HR's new resources the obvious suggestion is to add new Corporations but I'd like people's feedback first on what they like or dislike about the general mechanic and any suggestions you might have to improve it or balance it better.

Why, Xyth, I thought you'd never ask!
In the past, I have been very critical of the corporation mechanic.

Here are some of its major flaws:

• Balance. As Howard says, some corporations are too strong. In particular, Sid Sushi's can deliver upwards of +10 food to every city on any map with a significant coastline.
• Variety. Corporations are poorly balanced against each other. In most cases, Sid Sushi's and Mining Inc. are the optimal choice. On maps without water, Sid Sushi's can be replaced with Cereal Mills; and when pursuing a Cultural Victory, Creative Constructions and Civ Jewelers can substitute for Mining Inc. There is no more to corporate strategy than that.
• Scale. Corporations are also poorly balanced against other game mechanics. For instance, Civ Jewelers produces +4 culture per Gems, Gold, and Silver resource. In a hypothetical French empire with 6 native resources and 2 imported resources, a single jewelry chain will produce more culture for Paris than Notre Dame, the Eiffel Tower, and all the city theatres and cinemas combined!
• Exclusivity. Corporations let leading civilizations get ahead and leave trailing civilizations in the dust. Once a corporation is founded, no other civilization has access to it. This is a serious problem; unlike religions, all corporations are not created equal. No empire without corporations can compete with the likes of Sid Sushi's and Mining Inc.
• Redundancy. Corporation mechanics are unnecessarily complex. Heavy corporate costs are cancelled out by the Corporation Headquarters gold bonus. Trading gold for gold in this fashion is just not very interesting.
• Flavour. Even thought Civilization BtS features real civilizations, real leaders, and real World Wonders, the designers introduced fictional corporations with terrible names. Creative Constructions, anyone?

That said, corporations have great potential to enliven the late game.
I suggest a complete overhaul of the mechanic, as follows.

1. Replace the seven fictional corporations with seven historical corporations. Balance their yields and throw the new HR resources into the mix. Here is a first draft:

General Mills Incorporated
[founded in 1886, based in America, agriculture]
requires Great Scientist
supplies Corn; produces +0.5, +1.0 per Corn, Olives, Potato, Rice, and Wheat

the East India Company
[founded in 1600, based in India, tropical goods]
requires Great Merchant
supplies Spices; produces +0.5, +1.0 per Banana, Elephant, Incense, Salt, and Spices

Cadbury Brothers
[founded in 1824, based in England, confectionery]
requires Great Merchant
supplies Cocoa; produces +0.5, +1.0 per Cocoa, Coffee, Sugar, Tea, and Wine

the Rio Tinto Company
[founded in 1881, based in Spain, mining]
requires Great Engineer
supplies Copper; produces +0.5, +1.0 per Coal, Copper, Iron, Marble, and Stone

Cartier S.A.
[founded in 1847, based in France, jewelery]
requires Great Artist
supplies Gems; produces +0.5, +1.0 per Amber, Gems, Gold, Jade, and Silver

the Silk Road
[founded in antiquity, based in China, textiles]
requires Great Merchant
supplies Silk; produces +0.5, +1.0 per Cotton, Dye, Flax, Sheep, and Silk

the Hudson's Bay Company
[founded in 1670, based in Canada, arctic goods]
requires Great Merchant
supplies Fur; produces +0.5, +0.5 per Bison, Deer, Fur, Seal, and Whale​

I have attempted to include corporations from many different nations. The Silk Road is not a corporation; but because I could not find an iconic textiles manufacturer, and because the Silk Road has played such an important role in world history, I decided to make an exception. (I am very much open to suggestions on this point.)

Each corporation is linked to five resources, and supplies the one resource it is most famous for. Some of the five resources are hypothetical; General Mills is not known for its Olives, but had it been founded in a Mediterranean empire, it might have. Most corporations produce one base yield, either 0.5 or 0.5; and one processed yield, either 1.0, 1.0, or 1.0. The Hudson's Bay Company produces both food and hammers because three of its five resources eventually become obsolete.

Hit Drama, Hit Movies, and Hit Singles were omitted because they are not widely available. Crab, Fish, and Shellfish Crabs were deliberately omitted because their appearance is far too dependent on map type. Aluminum, Gas, Oil, Rubber, and Uranium were omitted because they already have strategic value in the Industrial and Modern Era; Tobacco was omitted because of its health penalties. Cattle, Horse, and Pigs were omitted for a lack of better options; there is certainly room for an eighth corporation if anyone is interested. The other thirty-five resources are all attached to corporations.

2. Limit the number of corporations in a city to one. Players must decide which corporation best suits their cities.
If this requires that all corporations have at least one resource in common, that can be arranged.

3. Recast Corporate Headquarters as National Wonders. That way, all players can found the corporation of their choice at their own pace provided they have the appropriate Great Person.

4. Eliminate corporation costs. Eliminate the Corporate Headquarters per franchise gold bonus. In its place, introduce a commerce multiplier per resource.
In the case of General Mills Incorporated, as imagined above, the Corporate Headquarters would provide +5% commerce for Corn, Olives, Potato, Rice, and Wheat.

That is all.

 

[Keinpferd]

It's true, that the culture bonus of Civ Jewelers is immense, but it comes really late and can be a real surprise to a player on the road to a got-it-dicked military victory. Culture must be accumulated quickly to counter a space victory pursuer, too.

I like the well chosen historical corporations and the variety in them. How about to add a few more, that stress the either franchise or chain side of the corporation concept? As I understand it, in most cases "headquarters" deliver a proven trademark and standardized retailing model to local agents, with differing degrees of independence from the HQ. Cartier would be the only among your companies, that works like that.

I don't think, all corporations should be created equal. They should be created individual. Standard Oil and Aluminum Inc. can't compete with Sushi, right, but they provide a strategic resource, which a player might not get ahold of without that corporation. Providing a scarce and crucial resource is meant as a balancing means. The weaker corporations are receiving one striking asset over the evenly strong corporations; they aren't supposed to be equally useful in every game on every map for every player. That's why not every corporation should deliver a ressource, especially not for mere symmetry reasons. Symmetry is often an orderly looking pseodo-structured substitute for a worked out mechanism, which needs a lot of testing. No objection here, I already said I liked the general direction, especially the corporations' names.

Fireaxis picked ficticious names probably only to forgo licence issues, but at creating new names they could have tried a little harder. As a commercial game company, Fireaxis has to be careful to piss no one off legally or related to religious feelings. HR may take a bit more freedom here. I don't see a reason, why a bio-patent company like Monsanto shouldn't be included.

I don't quite get the point in why Hit Drama and the cultural resources have to be omitted (not widely available). How about adding Amazon for a little more science (= more literacy), moved from Rio Tinto?

Disney would be a candidate for a corporation, too. Disney characters are embedded in the collective consciousness of present day mankind like celestial mythological figures in former times, even in pronouncedly anti-western societies.

A little side idea: How about having the game scan a Python names list of corporation names and assign a proper name from the list to the newly founded corporation according to which Civ is founding it. If the Americans found the oil providing corporation, it will check for the American name Standard Oil or Exxon Mobil, if the Dutch get it first, it will be called Royal Dutch Shell, if the French Total S.A., the Russians Lukoil, et cetera.

 

[Simon_Jester]

When it comes to the "hit" resources, one nation controls the entire supply, always. If there's a corporation that uses 'hits,' then whoever builds that corporation has every incentive to hoard the resource for themselves, and they'll never get enough of the resource to matter from anyone else if they don't control the supply. Not good.

The problem with the corporations that provide resources is that oil and aluminum are common enough on the map that the odds of not having a supply and actually being in a position to found the corporation in the right narrow window of time are pretty low. They're not a complete alternative to the resource.

 

[Azoth]

It's true, that the culture bonus of Civ Jewelers is immense, but it comes really late and can be a real surprise to a player on the road to a got-it-dicked military victory. Culture must be accumulated quickly to counter a space victory pursuer, too.

The real issue here is that there can be no response to Civilized Jewelers and Sid's Sushi short of invasion. Border cities, especially those recently conquered or founded, are quickly crushed beneath the weight of their cultural output. In many ways, the most important changes I suggest come at the end of my post: allowing only one corporation per city limits the power of stacked "corporate culture" and recasting corporations as National Wonders gives all players the tools to fight back. Culture Victory is a side issue; any serious attempt will forgo research and turn up the culture slider to 100% well before the Industrial Era.

I don't quite get the point in why Hit Drama and the cultural resources have to be omitted (not widely available). How about adding Amazon for a little more science (= more literacy), moved from Rio Tinto? Disney would be a candidate for a corporation, too.

Disney characters are embedded in the collective consciousness of present day mankind like celestial mythological figures in former times, even in pronouncedly anti-western societies.

If I had to match the remaining resources with corporations, I would probably pick a Japanese seafood and meat processing company such as Taiyo Fishery Company for Cattle, Crab, Fish, Pigs, and Shellfish; and the iconic Walt Disney Company for Hit Drama, Hit Movies, and Hit Singles. I hesitate to do so because: (1) The availability of seafood resources varies by map type. A hypothetical Taiyo Fishery Company might be competitive with other corporations on Pangaea maps; but, like Sid's Sushi, it would be absurdly powerful on Archipelago maps, when over half of the available resources are seafood. (2) The Hit resources are tied to World Wonders. Only players that build these wonders will have the opportunity to found the Walt Disney Company. Far from exporting their culture to other civilizations, these players will then be encouraged to hoard their Hit resources, to maximize the benefits from their corporation and prevent others from doing the same. (I agree I was a little unclear on that second point in my last post.)

I don't think, all corporations should be created equal. They should be created individual. Standard Oil and Aluminum Inc. can't compete with Sushi, right, but they provide a strategic resource, which a player might not get ahold of without that corporation. Providing a scarce and crucial resource is meant as a balancing means.

In theory, access to Oil or Aluminum should compensate for lower corporate bonuses. In practice, Standard Oil and Aluminum Co. are rarely worth the cost of a Great Scientist and corporate maintenance, quite apart from the fact that they must compete with the much stronger Sid Sushi's and Mining Inc. There are always other ways to acquire strategic resources. Players pursuing a military victory can simply capture them; after all, Oil and Aluminum are visible well before they are necessary. Players pursing a peaceful victory can either trade for those resources or make do without them. In all my games, I have never seen fit to found Standard Oil or Aluminum Co., and I can't say the AI derived much benefit from them, either.

The weaker corporations are receiving one striking asset over the evenly strong corporations; they aren't supposed to be equally useful in every game on every map for every player. That's why not every corporation should deliver a ressource, especially not for mere symmetry reasons. Symmetry is often an orderly looking pseodo-structured substitute for a worked out mechanism, which needs a lot of testing. No objection here, I already said I liked the general direction, especially the corporations' names.

What can I say? I have a weakness for symmetry. But I do agree that a little variety and asymmetry would not be out of place.
If Xyth also approves of the general direction of these changes, I'll try and shake things up a bit in the second draft.

Edit: Simon Jester covers some of the same points.

 

[Xyth]

Still digesting all of this, Corporations are a mechanic I'm woefully unfamiliar with unfortunately. I'm guilty of not playing the late game near as much as I should. I won't be tackling these for 0.9.5 btw but I wanted to get the discussion underway as they should be a priority for 0.9.6 - which is going to be primarily focused on improving the late game.

I won't comment on too many specifics for now but instead on the bigger picture stuff.

It might be a good idea to have the effect depend on both the number of resources and the number of cities. There should be a minimum effect and a maximum effect, but within that the more resources the bigger the effect per city, but the more cities affected the smaller the effect per city. Just a thought.

That would make sense but there's no way I can code it.

1. Replace the seven fictional corporations with seven historical corporations. Balance their yields and throw the new HR resources into the mix. Here is a first draft:

Completely agree that we should try and use historical/actual corporations, in this regards your draft looks very good. If we decide to for more than 7 corporations it would be good to continue the international diversity you have going. Eurocentrism is obviously a bit tricky to avoid when it comes to corporations but this is one area of the game where it makes sense.

The East India Company is currently the Dutch UW, so we'd need to find a new UW for them. I'm not sure what this could be. Incidentally, doing this would also free up the graphic I currently use for it to make the Venetian Arsenal world wonder.

Each corporation is linked to five resources, and supplies the one resource it is most famous for. Some of the five resources are hypothetical; General Mills is not known for its Olives, but had it been founded in a Mediterranean empire, it might have. Most corporations produce one base yield, either 0.5 or 0.5; and one processed yield, either 1.0, 1.0, or 1.0. The Hudson's Bay Company produces both food and hammers because three of its five resources eventually become obsolete.

I don't think, all corporations should be created equal. They should be created individual.

I think symmetry is a good place to start because symmetrical mechanics are much easier to balance. From a balanced base we can then make adjustments to better individualize and/or specialize each corporation.

2. Limit the number of corporations in a city to one. Players must decide which corporation best suits their cities.
If this requires that all corporations have at least one resource in common, that can be arranged.

I don't see any obvious way that I code such a limit other than via resources in common, but it seems like a reasonable idea.

3. Recast Corporate Headquarters as National Wonders. That way, all players can found the corporation of their choice at their own pace provided they have the appropriate Great Person.

4. Eliminate corporation costs. Eliminate the Corporate Headquarters per franchise gold bonus. In its place, introduce a commerce multiplier per resource.
In the case of General Mills Incorporated, as imagined above, the Corporate Headquarters would provide +5% commerce for Corn, Olives, Potato, Rice, and Wheat.

These I'm not sure on as they would make corporations always be beneficial and removes the idea of competition. I think one of the interesting aspects of Firaxis' mechanic is that corporations can run at a loss if out-competed. Of course this doesn't work in practice because the 7 standard corporations are not balanced well and they don't scale appropriately with mapsize. Limiting the number of corporations in a city would help somewhat.

I'd have to think about this some more but I'd like to try and preserve/fix/improve this unique mechanic before discarding it.

A little side idea: How about having the game scan a Python names list of corporation names and assign a proper name from the list to the newly founded corporation according to which Civ is founding it. If the Americans found the oil providing corporation, it will check for the American name Standard Oil or Exxon Mobil, if the Dutch get it first, it will be called Royal Dutch Shell, if the French Total S.A., the Russians Lukoil, et cetera.

It might be possible to do something like this but, like with Great People, it becomes a bit tricky to find suitable names for every civ or even region. We'd have to give each corporation and headquarters a generic name (and logo) and they'd display as such in the pedia and building queue, not changing to the unique name until after it's founded. Not ruling it out but probably more trouble than it's worth and would detract a lot from changing to real corporations in the first place.

I don't quite get the point in why Hit Drama and the cultural resources have to be omitted (not widely available). How about adding Amazon for a little more science (= more literacy), moved from Rio Tinto?

When it comes to the "hit" resources, one nation controls the entire supply, always. If there's a corporation that uses 'hits,' then whoever builds that corporation has every incentive to hoard the resource for themselves, and they'll never get enough of the resource to matter from anyone else if they don't control the supply. Not good.

The Hit resources are tied to World Wonders. Only players that build these wonders will have the opportunity to found the Walt Disney Company. Far from exporting their culture to other civilizations, these players will then be encouraged to hoard their Hit resources, to maximize the benefits from their corporation and prevent others from doing the same.

I agree that we should leave the 'Hit' resources out of corporations for the time being, for the reasons stated. These probably need to be reviewed in 0.9.6 as well.

Finally, to mix things up considerably, what if there were more resources that don't come from the map? e.g., Fertilizer, Pharmaceuticals, etc. Corporations could have an interesting role to play in such a scheme. No firm ideas or plans at this stage, just throwing the concept out there.

 

[davidtylr]

It would be good to have a brewery as a corporation like, Guinness or Heineken or something like that. And a media corporation like BBC.

 

[KaneofEgypt]

What about NASA? If there is a beer company being suggested, why not have a corporation specifically to help with the space race. It would take in aluminum and... rocket fuel? Gas or oil... I guess, but it would put out a substantial bonus to spaceship production. OH! And it would require a lab in the city it was founded in.

 

[Azoth]

The East India Company is currently the Dutch UW, so we'd need to find a new UW for them. I'm not sure what this could be. Incidentally, doing this would also free up the graphic I currently use for it to make the Venetian Arsenal world wonder.

How about the Amsterdam Bourse, considered the world's oldest stock exchange, established in 1602 by the Dutch East India Company itself?

I don't see any obvious way that I code such a limit other than via resources in common, but it seems like a reasonable idea.

A limit on the number of corporations per city is essential. Cities with multiple corporations could easily produce more food, production, and commerce from corporations than from the surrounding terrain. We should avoid that at all costs! I can see one clumsy way to code a limit. You could create a dummy resource that does not appear on any map script and is enabled at Future Tech; then make it common to all corporations. Alternatively, I could reshuffle the resources such that Gold is common to all corporations. It would make a certain amount of sense: any player with access to Gold could found any corporation. It would also free up some extra resources for corporations 8, 9, and 10.

These I'm not sure on as they would make corporations always be beneficial and removes the idea of competition. I think one of the interesting aspects of Firaxis' mechanic is that corporations can run at a loss if out-competed. Of course this doesn't work in practice because the 7 standard corporations are not balanced well and they don't scale appropriately with mapsize. Limiting the number of corporations in a city would help somewhat.

Actually, corporations always run a profit if you have Courthouses in your franchise cities and some combination of Market/Grocer/Bank/Stock Exchange in your corporate headquarters. If you don't own the corporate headquarters, then corporations nearly always run at a loss. Competition between corporations plays no role at all. These mechanics put the AI at a severe disadvantage; players can run huge profits and wreak havoc upon AI economies by spreading their corporations to AI cities. That's why the BtS AI is programmed to switch to State Property at the earliest opportunity and ignore corporations altogether. I don't see how these mechanics can be salvaged. On the other hand, eliminating corporation costs, demoting corporate headquarters to National Wonders, and replacing their per franchise gold bonus lets all players play the corporate game on equal terms. It also reduces the availability of corporate resources, since all can found the relevant corporations; and is a better historical model: many civilizations partook in the Silk Road and founded an East India Company, for example.

On a separate note, corporations already scale reasonably well with map size. Sid's Sushi produces roughly +1 food per seafood resource on Tiny, +0.5 food per resource on Standard, and +0.25 food per resource on Huge. Some tweaks to the formula might be required; but that's all.

Finally, to mix things up considerably, what if there were more resources that don't come from the map? e.g., Fertilizer, Pharmaceuticals, etc. Corporations could have an interesting role to play in such a scheme. No firm ideas or plans at this stage, just throwing the concept out there.

Unique corporate resources are a fine idea. My only concern is that we already have so many resources that health and happiness are a little too easy to come by. Additional corporate resources would exacerbate the problem.

 

[Howard Mahler]

On a separate note, corporations already scale reasonably well with map size. Sid's Sushi produces roughly +1 food per seafood resource on Tiny, +0.5 food per resource on Standard, and +0.25 food per resource on Huge. Some tweaks to the formula might be required; but that's all.

On a Huge map, I believe that you can usually trade for much more than 4 times the resources than you can have on a Tiny map.

In any case, on any size map larger empires can benefit much more from corporations.
This is a basic problem or feature of the mechanism:
1. More resources (of the same type) gives a linear increase in effect.
2. Effect applies in each city (where corporation is spread) independent of the number of such cities.

While there are some World Wonders that have property #2, this is unusual.
While one can make trades with more civs the more resources one has of a given kind, this is somewhat limited.

Thus the basic current mechanism of corporations works differently with scale than most other features of the game.

This leaves aside the fact that Sid's Sushi is much more powerful on maps with more coastal resources.

 

[Azoth]

On a Huge map, I believe that you can usually trade for much more than 4 times the resources than you can have on a Tiny map.

This is certainly true. Larger maps offer more and better trading opportunities.
I see it as yet another reason to demote Corporate Headquarters to National Wonders and make them available to all players.
AI leaders are much less willing to trade spare resources if they need them to power their own corporations.
At the very least, they demand a higher price.

In any case, on any size map larger empires can benefit much more from corporations.
This is a basic problem or feature of the mechanism:
1. More resources (of the same type) gives a linear increase in effect.
2. Effect applies in each city (where corporation is spread) independent of the number of such cities.

While there are some World Wonders that have property #2, this is unusual.
Thus the basic current mechanism of corporations works differently with scale than most other features of the game.

Strictly speaking, this is not true. Quite apart from corporations and certain World Wonders: research costs, city maintenance, and unit costs also scale with map size. For example:

1. A twenty city empire on a Large map generates more raw beakers with Standard Ethanol than a seven city empire on a Small map.
   However, research costs on a Large map are inherently higher than those on a Small map, even at the same difficulty level.
2. A twenty city empire on a Large map generates more raw hammers with Mining Inc. than a seven city empire on a Small map.
   However, the hammer costs of the units necessary to defend a twenty city empire or to invade a neighbouring twenty city empire are inherently higher than the corresponding hammer costs for a seven city empire.

The balance might not be perfect - and I have made some suggestions for improving it further - but I do not see any obvious balance issues with map sizes.

 

[davidtylr]

What if corporations turn up like religions.

 

[Xyth]

Resurrecting this discussion because I would like to tackle Corporations in 1.18. To be honest I'm very tempted to just remove them altogether, they're imbalanced, exploitable, tricky to mod, unrealistic, and not all that fun. I came across this though:

Corporations in RoM, and BTS, have seems to be nearly totally state-owned entities, spread by only the governments will, for only the government's purpose, merely as a tool. You'd think Communism beat Capitalism in 1991, not the other way around.

Corporations are no longer state-controlled entities. While the State may own the city a corporation operates in, or the headquarters for the corporation, they can not control it's spread, except in extreme circumstances. No Executives or units that can spread corporations can be trained, except when using a civic that blocks foreign corporations. Corporations are no longer founded by units, buildings, or otherwise. Instead they are founded by a little bit of luck, and some strategy.

Each turn, the game will check and try to found corporations if the conditions are right. It will favor cities that offer the best situation for the corporation, so having cities with most, or all, of the resources a corporation needs will prove beneficial. Being more technologically advanced helps to a small degree. Further, having civics that boost corporations that are beneficial will help too, but more on that later. The game will roll dice each turn to try to found the Headquarters, and if the roll beats the odds, one will be formed. Don't fear that this will overly benefit the most advanced player. It will to some degree reward them, but not always.

Also happening each turn, every city checks for nearby corporations, (almost exactly the same religion spread works now) and will try to spread a corporation to your city. If your cities are more beneficial to the corporation, the faster they will expand. Having large road networks will help you.

Now that Corporation Spread is out of your control, there is one new factor in the player's control. Instead of paying "Maintenance" to corporations, you can decide to tax, or subsidize corporations. Subsidizing them will cost you money, but will cause corporations to favor your cities and spread more quickly to your cities. Taxing corporations will generate revenue for your nation but will slow corporation spread. If you tax corporations too much (compared to other nations), corporations may decide to close their businesses in your cities, and will not return until conditions improve.

Corporations are now essentially state-less entities that will spread in your cities if you are receptive to their needs. You can use them to boost culture, production, or fulfill other needs, and generate an income too; all while reducing micromanagement for the player.

That's by Afforess, maker of Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn. He'll be making that work via the SDK but some aspects of it might be doable via Python for HR. Does this (combined with the discussions above) generally feel like the right direction to head in for Corporations?

 

[Eucalyptus]

Resurrecting this discussion because I would like to tackle Corporations in 1.18. To be honest I'm very tempted to just remove them altogether, they're imbalanced, exploitable, tricky to mod, unrealistic, and not all that fun. I came across this though:

That's by Afforess, maker of Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn. He'll be making that work via the SDK but some aspects of it I might be doable via Python for HR. Does this (combined with the discussions above) generally feel like the right direction to head in for Corporations?

Quick opinion: Yes! Implementation of this approach sounds like a lot of work but the result would be a great improvement in gameplay. If it's too difficult to implement, I would also rather play without Corporations altogether.

 

[Howard Mahler]

I do not favor this change.
I would prefer leaving things alone to making this change.

I would prefer an attempt first be made to balance, revise and add to the current corporations. I think there is substantial room for improvement as well as incorporating the additional HR resources.

Founding corporations is one good use for Great People later in the game.
Spreading corporations is one thing for a player to do later in the game.
Semi-random founding and semi-random spread do indeed remove actions for the player. (player actions and decisions = micro-managing for those who do not like a particular aspect of the game.)
I think we already have enough randomness in the game.

Religion spreads semi-randomly in addition to due to player action via missionaries.
Trying some very small (remember small chances add quickly over many turns) random spread of corporations might be worthwhile in order to see what happens.

The taxing corporations idea is interesting; not sure how and if it could be grafted onto the current corporation mechanism. Would need to get some immediate benefit for raising taxes (on all corporations) versus some potential longer term downside. The immediate benefit is more money per turn. The downside might be an increased probability of a corporation leaving a city. However, currently the benefits of a corporation in a city are balanced to some extent by the maintenance costs. So the cost of a corporation leaving may no be that huge, particularly of the player can found it again in the city with an executive.

Having a player option to play without Corporations is a good idea.

 

[Howard Mahler]

As stated previously, I think that if you are going to work on corporations you should first balance and revise the current corporations. However, I have been doing some thinking on the corporation mechanism. These are just thoughts rather than a proposal.

If one allows some semi-random spread, the probabilities should be very small, smaller than those for religion. Perhaps only possible in a city that does not have any corporations. Probability might increase somewhat with city size, number of wonders in the city, whether there is a university and/or research lab, etc.
I would continue to allow deliberate spreading via corporate execs. (Religions can be spread via missionaries.)

While the corporate headquarters gives the benefit (culture, hammers, etc.), in the case of other cities, when the corporation spreads to city one would need to build a certain building to get the benefit; perhaps call it a corporate branch (one type for each corporation).

Have the maintenance cost for each corporate branch depend on how many other branches of the same corporation are in the same country. (Similar to the way maintenance per city goes up with the number of cities.) This should be significant enough to balance somewhat the benefit of spreading corporations to multiple cities.
A problem with the current mechanism, is that whatever benefit you get for 5 fish that a country has, you get in each and every city in that country with that corporation. If possible it would be better to increase the base benefit somewhat, but have the benefit per city decrease with the number of branches of that corporation in the country. Some sort of balance needs to be struck between benefit per branch and maintenance.

Currently corporate execs can be built in any city with that corporation. If other changes are made, this will probably need to be changed. One should definitely be able to build them in the headquarters. Maybe if a country has four branches of a corporation, it can build a corporate "division" in one of those cities. (Similar to the mechanism of a Great Temple.) Then the corporate division allows one to build execs.
(The division might have some other small benefit.)

I would probably reduce the money the headquarters currently gets per branch. The headquarters could have no maintenance, give the benefit of the corporation, and allow the building of corporate execs. The money per branch would give the founder of the corporation some benefit if the corporation spreads around the world.
(Similar to the religious Shrine.)

Allowing the player to set a corporate tax rate is interesting. Could be three levels or 0% to 100% slider. A low tax rate could increase the chance of attracting a corporation to one of your cities, but higher corporate maintenance costs. A high tax rate could decrease or eliminate the chance of attracting a corporation to one of your cities, but lower corporate maintenance costs. Maybe a high enough tax rate could also reduce the benefit provided by the corporation.

Just some thoughts to put into the mix.

 

[atirtanadi]

Hey there - I have also been thinking about ways to change the corporate "game," here are my thoughts. In order to make the corporations both more historically accurate and create more interesting gameplay choices for players, I would propose the following changes:

Basically create a system where players would choose between creating an economic system based on private "capitalist" corporations, or state-owned "nationalist" corporations. Each has it's own advantages and disadvantages. Both types of corporations utilize a resource and turn it into a benefit (gold, production, or food). Additionally, both types of corporations produce a gold bonus to the city they are headquartered in equal to the number of cities that currently have that corporation.

Private corporations are created and spread automatically, without player control. They can spread around the world, into other civilizations, but spread fairly slowly along existing trade routes. They can also go out of business (but not in their headquartered city). So, civs that are more technologically advanced start seeding their corporations first. Less advanced civs will start seeding their corporations later, potentially having to drive out of business competing foreign corporations in their home civ, in order to grow. Private corporations will produce more output when compared with state-owned ones (reflecting higher efficiency), but will also produce more unhappiness (reflecting greater inequality) and unhealthiness (reflecting greater pollution).

State-owned corporations are created and spread by the player. They can be created either by nationalizing an existing corporation (which costs money) or using great people. As such, they can be headquartered in gold-producing cities. You can also produce agents to quickly spread the corporation to all cities in your empire, even small or out-of-the-way cities. State-owned corporations cannot go out of business, so private corporations that compete with the state-owned corporation for the same resource will both go out of business if the state-owned corporation is settled in that city, and never spread to that city. Compared with private corporations, state-owned corporations produce significantly less output, but also less unhappiness and less unhealthiness. State-owned corporations can be privatized, but will retain the output penalty for x number of turns. State-owned corporations cannot be spread outside of the originator's civilization.

To fit this new paradigm, I would amend the economic civics: Bureaucracy: foreign corporations are not allowed & the costs of nationalizing a corporation are reduced by 50%. Free Market: your corporations spread 100% faster. Environmentalism: the unhappiness and unhealthiness penalty from corporations are reduced.

Finally, I'm also in favor of making the bonus a corporation grants a city not dependent on the # of resources that civ has, which the corporation uses, but on the improvements used by the city. For example: corporation x may give city A extra food for each farm tile worked, if the civilization has corn. Corporation y (a competitor) may give city A extra food for each workshop tile worked, if the civilization has corn. Another example: corporation m may give food for every fish/crab/oyster tile worked by city B, if the civ has fish. Corporation n (it's competitor), may give extra production for every fish/crab/oyster tile worked by city B, if the civ has fish.

Allowing corporations to benefit a city based on the improvements around the city, instead of just granting the city a flat bonus, encourages the player to retool improvements near cities to fit the corporation's strengths (giving you something to do with your workers after you finish your railroads), and also encourages you to try to locate certain corporations in certain cities.

Assuming all of the aforementioned can be balanced, I think this would make the late-game economy much more interesting and meaningful to the player, and also make the whole corporation scheme more historical.

 

[Keinpferd]

Afforesses attempt to introduce some organic economy, free market and genuine capitalism is understandable, though, in Civ, the player is the state; thus every player controlled economic action is centralist and state-owned by nature. Adding just one little element of self-organiziation and thermodynamics doesn't change that very much, unless there would be an entire new system of player controlled tax rates, that not only attract corporation branches but let new coporations emerge and let other economic quasi-self-organizing patterns emerge.

I'm all positive about corporations, ever since I've seen a financial city in one of my games, which was a double holy city, headquarter of two corporations and having Wall Street. The gee-whiz amount of money that city made persuaded me, that corporations are fun.

And the possibility of having civics correlate with corporations is one modding friendly decision by Firaxis.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Don't know about be able to have the corporate bonus in a city depend on city tiles worked. May be able to be programmed via the corporate branch building concept (one type per corporation.)
I would not try to have different types of corporations until one type was made to work well first.

By the way, most mechanisms in the game are slanted towards giving the player more control than may be strictly speaking warranted as a simulation.

Hey there - I have also been thinking about ways to change the corporate "game," here are my thoughts. In order to make the corporations both more historically accurate and create more interesting gameplay choices for players, I would propose the following changes:

Basically create a system where players would choose between creating an economic system based on private "capitalist" corporations, or state-owned "nationalist" corporations. Each has it's own advantages and disadvantages. Both types of corporations utilize a resource and turn it into a benefit (gold, production, or food). Additionally, both types of corporations produce a gold bonus to the city they are headquartered in equal to the number of cities that currently have that corporation.

Private corporations are created and spread automatically, without player control. They can spread around the world, into other civilizations, but spread fairly slowly along existing trade routes. They can also go out of business (but not in their headquartered city). So, civs that are more technologically advanced start seeding their corporations first. Less advanced civs will start seeding their corporations later, potentially having to drive out of business competing foreign corporations in their home civ, in order to grow. Private corporations will produce more output when compared with state-owned ones (reflecting higher efficiency), but will also produce more unhappiness (reflecting greater inequality) and unhealthiness (reflecting greater pollution).

State-owned corporations are created and spread by the player. They can be created either by nationalizing an existing corporation (which costs money) or using great people. As such, they can be headquartered in gold-producing cities. You can also produce agents to quickly spread the corporation to all cities in your empire, even small or out-of-the-way cities. State-owned corporations cannot go out of business, so private corporations that compete with the state-owned corporation for the same resource will both go out of business if the state-owned corporation is settled in that city, and never spread to that city. Compared with private corporations, state-owned corporations produce significantly less output, but also less unhappiness and less unhealthiness. State-owned corporations can be privatized, but will retain the output penalty for x number of turns. State-owned corporations cannot be spread outside of the originator's civilization.

To fit this new paradigm, I would amend the economic civics: Bureaucracy: foreign corporations are not allowed & the costs of nationalizing a corporation are reduced by 50%. Free Market: your corporations spread 100% faster. Environmentalism: the unhappiness and unhealthiness penalty from corporations are reduced.

Finally, I'm also in favor of making the bonus a corporation grants a city not dependent on the # of resources that civ has, which the corporation uses, but on the improvements used by the city. For example: corporation x may give city A extra food for each farm tile worked, if the civilization has corn. Corporation y (a competitor) may give city A extra food for each workshop tile worked, if the civilization has corn. Another example: corporation m may give food for every fish/crab/oyster tile worked by city B, if the civ has fish. Corporation n (it's competitor), may give extra production for every fish/crab/oyster tile worked by city B, if the civ has fish.

Allowing corporations to benefit a city based on the improvements around the city, instead of just granting the city a flat bonus, encourages the player to retool improvements near cities to fit the corporation's strengths (giving you something to do with your workers after you finish your railroads), and also encourages you to try to locate certain corporations in certain cities.

Assuming all of the aforementioned can be balanced, I think this would make the late-game economy much more interesting and meaningful to the player, and also make the whole corporation scheme more historical.