History questions not worth their own thread III

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blow to the practice, but it was overruled by the Supreme court.

As far as civil liberties and rights go, other than his support for Women's suffrage (which despite his support for an amendment it never passed while he was in office),

Yes it did. It passed in 1919 and was ratified in 1920 in time for the Harding election. Wilson had had his stroke by then, but was still president.
 
Yes it did. It passed in 1919 and was ratified in 1920 in time for the Harding election. Wilson had had his stroke by then, but was still president.

Ah, it appears you are right. It was the tail end of his term when it got through. My mistake. :blush:
 
I don't believe you, given that he tried to carve Armenia out of Turkey and you have a record of making long rambling and incoherent post with little attachment to reality.

is a post of mine that deals with the 14 points , however long and well incoherent . Carving countries outta mine is long established tradition , you won't even get a p if you are not familiar with at least 100 unfallible plans to destroy Turks .
 
The tradition of Turkey gobbling up countries is somewhat longer. ;)

(Armenia, AFAIK, isn´t a Turkish country, by the way.)
 
took an entire evening game play time to write this . Turned out to be a wise thing of sorts as ı came upon a Whitney Houston special on a music channel . ı waited until 1.35 in the morning for the Heartbreak Hotel to appear and it wasn't the dancemix ı liked . Anyhow two or three songs ı hadn't heard before .

now that we are at it let's see why there wasn't a Wilsonian Armenia , or indeed why there was a War of Liberation , this now faded Kurtuluş Savaşı . Ottomans had been a de facto colony of foreign powers despite the clauses of 1856 misrepreseted here in Turkey to claim Istanbul was the 7th power right after the Great 6 , which ı probably can't exactly count . Practically a century of Western superiority and unopposed meddling followed by the bloody disasters of the war made it certain that peace imposed by the winners would have been accepted however bitter .

so ? Why , why ? 'Cause , lemme see , the writing was on the wall and everybody knew the Turk was truly down , never to rise again . Minorities knew there would be total re-arrangements soon enough and it was a race to expand the "boundaries" . They knew they could get anything simply by reaching out and grabbing it . Possession , you know , is so much of the law and possession is much faciliated by muscle-flexing shows . There was no need for immediate fighting among the newcomers though , the old foe was still around ; it was safer anyhow . There were lots of beatings of the Turks in the trams and ships of Istanbul of 1919 .

being a Turk then was as worthless as it is now .

don't take this as a bog-standart anti-minority sentiment . It took a legal taxing ripoff of 1940s , possible only by the odd coincidence that there was a little thing called the WW2 going on , to remove the financial stranglehold the Minorities had on trade . And trust me , the honesty of those Minority merchants are warmly recounted by people old enough to remember , a feeling re-kindled everytime they get ripped off by Turkish/Muslim businesses of any size .

the Ottomans were an empire , minorities were always around . And while it may be well be true those non-Turks were at times oppressed for the sake of appearence , Turks had it regularly worse . The same goverment that robbed the wealthy Minorities in the 1940s needed more coal as imports were iffy and financial outlook even worse , simply collected farmers from villages and sent them down to the mines . Output raised to 3 million tons , a 50% increase at the cost of 10.000 casualties with , ı believe , 450 dead .

being a minority under Turkish rule was not exactly or maybe always an hell . Now this story ı heard when ı was a museum guide . Have already mentioned it a couple of times ; there was a competition of sorts and one of the conditions was respecting differences . Anyhow , to test us the competition authorities sent an Armenian who searched the house of his grandparents in the city before they left in 1922 . The museum guys were me , as the only guide who spoke a foreign language - English though it is not much convincing in writing , even worse in talking - , the history advisor and a pal of his . Turned out the history advisor's grandparents were refugees from Bosnia , where Islamic beliefs and attitudes were much stiffened by all those antagonisms with the Serbians . Well , when they came to these parts , the local women would cover their faces when there were fellow Muslims around and open when with Armenians . It hurt the refugees . The Armenian was not surprised . The test was about more recent times , he just mentioned he had personally known a couple of leaders of ASALA , the terrorist group that used to kill our diplomats . What the competition authorities were thinking , ı don't know . We certainly didn't jump on the guy to beat the hell out of him ... He wasn't surprised with that either .

the Armenians were the Loyal Nation of the Ottoman times , and it is the Greeks' fault that they came to rebel . When the Greek uprising started in 1821 , the head of the church in Istanbul was found to be affliated with those rebels and was hanged . His body thrown out into the sea by Jews , who volunteered and that was "paid back" with 6000 Jews killed by the Greek rebels . With every year slashing yet another part of the Ottoman Empire , a moment came when it became unavoidable for the Armenians to think whether it was worth it to sink with the Turks . For those who said no , foreigners were already in country , to save them , of course .

returning to 1919 , a large Armenia was not that far-fetched , we had been losing territory for the last 2 or 3 centuries and the only reason that it tooks us so long to retreat from Vienna to Istanbul was that Europeans could not agree who would get the most from our carcass . To the locals it looked like success in playing one great power against the other . The recently ended Great War had simply removed Germany , Austria-Hungary and Russia from the equation , meaning disaster since the victors looked like the part to eat us alive . America , distant and kinda new or more truthfully undistinguished in sucking our blood was the preferred option to rule this country as a semi-colony and its president Wilson had already declared an Armenia . Indeed the move to the large Armenia was already in motion in 1914 , when governors were assigned to the two parts the Anatolia was to be divided into . The WW1 did not intervene , it happened in part because of this division as the blocks could not exactly agree on the spoils as in many other areas .

the thing to do was then accepting the inevitable , the Mustafa Kemal mission to the East was simply a double play for the Ottoman Goverment , where he would obviously organize a resistance to underline the value of the said goverment who could keep people under control , through Kemal , if the bites were not that much and something was left to this 7th great power to survive with .

kemal was indeed practically alone in seeking combat to remove the occupying powers , then even he treated Americans with care , he might have lost his entire power base had Americans been willing to accept the mandate . As already mentioned in this thread Wilson was not serious about anything he had preached in his 14 points except from the business parts , readily achieved already . This left Kemal to conduct the war he believed he had every right to conduct . His formative years had seen him watching Europeans stopping Ottomans when winning and pushing further down the cliff when losing . He had seen combat in Libya in an hopeless campaign , only to rush to home to fight in another where he saw his beloved hometown surrendered without a single shot . He had surely seen his political colleagues wrecking an empire for good , for no good for anyone he cared for . He had nowhere to go , nothing to do.

there were obviously many similar desperados , yet they would be simple to overwhelm by the disgust of the population at the decade of defeats . The obvious fact that the Minorities would no longer be "minority" , they would have even more than they already had and certainly would not care for Turkish dignity , the only thing the common folk could reasonably aspire to -as an obviously unlikely ideal- made more ready to accept the challenge .

the invasion of Izmir and the Turkish Colonel bayonetted 22 times for either refusing to remove his headgear or shouting Zito -Hail- Venizelos 22 times , in the city square to joyous cheers , eased old prejudices in the Ottoman goverment and made Kemal's job easier . Until the day people figured out that he meant to fight to English , the French , whomever came across his path . Then Damat Ferit organized anything that could topple Kemal and remold the resistance into the form it was originally planned to be . Early period of the Liberation struggle was practically a civil war . This is where the Europeans excel . The guest of the above paragraph somewhere actually said that the Armenians could have stayed in Turkey in far greater numbers had they not misjudged the situation . The Armenian view of the streets of the day was reported by him to be that they would hang Kemal from a lamp-post . The retreating Greek Army and its scorched earth tactics in 1922 was then not exactly confidence inspiring . That's what you get when you think American goverments believe in what they preach .

all of which came to pass because Kemal could unite the country behind him which happened largely because the army in the East followed him . For today's political gains much is made of this acceptance because the commander of the army would be a future political opponent of evil Kemal , yet here is undeniable proof of the commander's patriotism , for the country he followed a renegade to betray the Sultan he liked and the dictator would envy him later on . That is what you get by pushing a single dude off some cliff ... This so called partnership where the Turks eventually betrayed the Kurds also starts from this thing whereby those who robbed the forcefully relocated Armenians feared that the Allies actually would have some spine to ask for justice , now that there were no more Russians to run to , in case the going got rough . The civil war in the East that would doom the Turk by 50% in 1920-21 happened only in 1925 only to peter off within months , because you know , the Brits offered amnesty for the crimes against the Armenians . No more cliffs , His Majesties Goverment was powerful with all the gold in the world ... Watch this space for the newly elite to deduce the evilocity planned 1922 from 1915 by implicating locals with easy loot .



in the unlikely case of people wondering wassup today here is a spoilered section :
Spoiler :


america of course got its colony in later years and once again the Turk is obviously doomed in his habitat . No need to put him on the endangered species list ; just like Martin Luther once wrote the God sent the abomination as a whip for the sins of Catholic Church , there is no place for us in this new world . Ramblings of the nut and nothing else ...

yet the country is having a blast as usual . Now the traitorous military has been done away with , the new fight is over the only potential in the country . Those who follow the news of Turkey will know there is this American supported congregation , the itsy bitsies who took the miserably failure prone Islamist movement from the hands of its original founder and polished a new shiny generation . Who have the goverment now as the party . Kurds , semi opressed at the times they are not oppressing themselves and apparently having fought the military to a standstill is now the focus of the action . Both sides want the same prize , having saved it from the paws of the army . Itsy bitsy attempts to have its leader accepted as the beacon among the Kurds apparently go nowhere and the police and judiciary segments see the party through the state intelligence behind it .

wild reports suggest of those 7000 or so "terrorists" arrested in recent years half are state intelligence . Police reports have practically accused the Prime Minister of being behind the intelligence chief who intentionally allowed seperatist attacks on the military , you know to allow them to see that they could do biznezz ... Two years or so ago , it was the military "trying to foment chaos" and many generals are behind bars for exactly similar refrains , the intelligence chief was called for questioning , the responsible police officials etc have been immediately removed , bla bla ...

the president immediately reminded we are supposed to invade Syria , meanwhile the PM immediately arranged legal shields for the intelligence services , and as a sign of unity , for ranking military . There is no doubt that the goverment generals can arrange to find a rifle and a bandolier for the president so that he can invade Syria .

meanwhile the foreign minister proves why no country ever needs a smart foreign minister . He has been on the record , speaking at American think tanks that this country has no need for Cold war relics in the region . Good , yet those think tanks support people to do it on their own , don't they ? Without spoiling the knife sharp ironing marks on American pairs of pants ? Afterall what the projection is a very hot war ...

though the preparation for this operation Turkey will shirk from has long been in the minds of the locals . Operation may not be a fully correct term , rather an eventually confidently expected by Washington , somehow . sometime , someplace and yes , the re-telling of an admittedly not bright past has long been around . This debate show on history had this guy who had demonstrated against the goverment of Adnan Menderes . As he has become a saint these days , one of the regulars actually asked the guest to recant . Can't tell whether it is a pre-planned attention grabber , though the guy went on announcing the Ottoman Empire had actually 34 sultans / padishahs . The last do not count , possibly because the previously # 35 followed Ittihad without any influence and the previously # 36 had Kemal as his aide once and sent him to Anatolia . The things reading nuts on CFC will teach you , they surely can na be talkin' like thiz to foreigny boyz !

it is expected for people to accept this goverment of the 40s once made an election in the name of democracy and from a city of 60 000 or so voters , the goverment got a million votes . Why sure , just don't ask why a million voters disappeared from the rolls in the last years , probably because in Turkey 18 seperate families can live in adress that just looks , sounds and smells like a chicken coop , maybe the size of a sedan car . Democracy is good when it is allowed to work ...

americans as usual expect heartfelt thanks when one traces both the input and output of that million voters to their assets . By removal they do stuff for us , right ? Would have understood their doubts about the constitutional referandum and their desire for it to pass for their friends , only if the previous generation was not also their friends . Me ? ı was always in space ...

 
The tradition of Turkey gobbling up countries is somewhat longer. ;)

(Armenia, AFAIK, isn´t a Turkish country, by the way.)


ah thank you , but don't the CFC stalwarts tell us we are not people who came from the Middle Earth


sorry , Central Asia ? So how do you tell that our genes have not been around ??? Armenians can make us seriously proud and they see Turkey as their own without any objection from the Turks you won't like ...
 
How much Technology transfers occurred between the major allies and their minor allies in the 1930s and 1940s

For Example;
Germany with Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania
Britain with Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa
 
How much Technology transfers occurred between the major allies and their minor allies in the 1930s and 1940s

For Example;
Germany with Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania
Britain with Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa
Surprisingly little, actually. It got to the point where Australia and New Zealand had to design their own tanks because the Americans were unwilling to give them the technology. They were more than willing to sell their tanks to them though. Germany was similarly unwilling to share its technology with its lesser partners. Funnily enough, the major powers were more than willing to share technology with each other, even to the point of Germany giving the USSR the plans for the Bismarck.
 
Canada produced modified versions of both the M3 Lee (the Ram wasbasically a Lee with a fully rotating turret) and M4 Sherman (the Grizzly was an uparmoured Sherman) under license, and later built Sextons (license built Priests with 25 pounders) on the chassis.

Once the US went into full Sherman production it was realised that Canada producing the tanks was a waste because the US could do it much more cheaply, so Canada focused on other things which included exports to the US (some for American use and lend-lease). This is the reason that Canada didn't build its own tanks under license.

Canada produced a lot of British hardware under license and a lesser amount of American. For the most part the countries worked together on production so Canada built what was beneficial to build in Canada and bought what wasn't, there wasn't much trouble getting licenses.
 
Why is Czechia about the only country on the map that Americans call "Czech Republic" and not a more informal name? You almost never hear "French Republic" or even "Republic of China" where it actually matters.
 
I think it's because it was part of Czechoslovakia for most of its existence, so when the country broke in two, English-speakers just sort of snapped the name in half, and because we could hardly call it "Czecho", it became "Czech Republic".
 
Why is Czechia about the only country on the map that Americans call "Czech Republic" and not a more informal name? You almost never hear "French Republic" or even "Republic of China" where it actually matters.

I actually call it Czechia, probably because I had a friend in elementary school from there and that is what she usually called it. I remember in high school we had to take a test on the map of Europe, and I labeled it as Czechia and had it marked as wrong. :lol:

The whole Czech/Slovak thing is a bit confusing to most Americans. I still hear people refer to a "Czechoslovakia" all the time, and even more commonly everyone from Czechia/Czech Republic is still Czechoslovakian rather than simply Czech. Slovakia I often see referred to as "SLAVakia" when it's remembered at all, with its inhabitants being referred to as "Slavaks", "Slavians" or even just Slavs (which is of course correct as Slovakians are of course Slavs, but it's still not the demonym). Then there is the whole issue of people confusing it with Slovenia on top of everything else.

The Dominican Republic and Central African Republic come to mind.

I don't think we have much choice with these countries. Central Africa by itself is simply way too vague, and there is already a Dominica.
 
Is there any particular convention on how to write Éamon de Valera's surname? As in, should it be "de Valera" or "deValera"? The former seems the obvious, because that's how it is in the Spanish, but you see the latter floating around as well.
 
I actually call it Czechia, probably because I had a friend in elementary school from there and that is what she usually called it. I remember in high school we had to take a test on the map of Europe, and I labeled it as Czechia and had it marked as wrong. :lol:
I still refer to it as the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.
Is there any particular convention on how to write Éamon de Valera's surname? As in, should it be "de Valera" or "deValera"? The former seems the obvious, because that's how it is in the Spanish, but you see the latter floating around as well.
I believe the former is much more common. The latter seems to me to be more of a misspelling than anything else.
 
I still refer to it as the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.

I'm very glad to know that I'm not the only one to think that this is the most logical name for it. Too bad very few people would actually know what you're talking about when you try to describe the intricacies of Bohemo-Moravian politics. :p
 
I'm very glad to know that I'm not the only one to think that this is the most logical name for it. Too bad very few people would actually know what you're talking about when you try to describe the intricacies of Bohemo-Moravian politics. :p

On the other hand speaking of Bohemo-Moravian matters would appeal to Americans' Germanic affinity for compound words...
 
Why is Czechia about the only country on the map that Americans call "Czech Republic" and not a more informal name? You almost never hear "French Republic" or even "Republic of China" where it actually matters.

There´s 2 republics of China, actually.

I think it's because it was part of Czechoslovakia for most of its existence, so when the country broke in two, English-speakers just sort of snapped the name in half, and because we could hardly call it "Czecho", it became "Czech Republic".

Except ofcourse Czechoslovakia is made up of Czechia-Slovakia.

I still refer to it as the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.

Ofcourse you do...

I believe the former is much more common. The latter seems to me to be more of a misspelling than anything else.

Contraction, actually.

The only thing I can think of is that Czechia differs only 1 letter with Czechnia... As opposed to Slovakia and Slovenia, which are completely different countries. If you can´t be bothered to know where these countries actually are, it´s easy to get their names wrong. (But basically I don´t quite understand the question: Czechia/Czech Republic, France/French Republic, what´s the beef?)
 
There´s 2 republics of China, actually.

But there's only one "Republic of China". :rolleyes:

The only thing I can think of is that Czechia differs only 1 letter with Czechnia

Don't you mean Chechnya?

(But basically I don´t quite understand the question: Czechia/Czech Republic, France/French Republic, what´s the beef?)

In the English-speaking world, people almost invariably refer to the Czech Republic as, well, the Czech Republic, and rarely Czechia. France is almost invariably referred to as France, even in formal contexts.
 
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