Heroes

[DRJ]

One solution I believe RiFE had was Fort Commanders; units tethered to the fort but able to deny the enemy its usage. They were simply garrisons that prevented say a scout from walking in and taking advantge, though they obviously wouldn't be able to fight off a significant army themselves.

fort commanders like town watchmen? I think that's a good idea, to program the town watchman/guard to see forts as towns so the ai would put them there, too. Also, the unit could get the 50% bonus for the town on fort also - is this possible to code?

being at the topic: another thing about forts is that if the player put them on their borders (and some well promoted units in them the ai doesn't seem to try to invade anymore... anyone else experienced that?

 

[Koshling]

fort commanders like town watchmen? I think that's a good idea, to program the town watchman/guard to see forts as towns so the ai would put them there, too. Also, the unit could get the 50% bonus for the town on fort also - is this possible to code?

being at the topic: another thing about forts is that if the player put them on their borders (and some well promoted units in them the ai doesn't seem to try to invade anymore... anyone else experienced that?

I suspect (but it's only a suspicion) that the AI can't cope with a situation where all routes to potential target towns are blocked by fort ZoCs. The AI code for attacks basically starts by choosing a target city it can find a path to. If there is no such path it will never attempt to invade. This is original BtS code, so it's the (more recent) addition of ZoCs that the AI is not yet up to date with I think. I'll add this to my (long and growing) list of things to look at. Off the top of my head the best way would be to have the city attack routine consider forts as potential attack targets, and just score them lower than most cities. That way if it can't attack a city it would choose a fort instead. The trick will be to get the score it uses to determine the best target tuned correctly.

Do you have a save game that (probably) exhibits this that I can play with?

 

[DRJ]

I suspect (but it's only a suspicion) that the AI can't cope with a situation where all routes to potential target towns are blocked by fort ZoCs. The AI code for attacks basically starts by choosing a target city it can find a path to. If there is no such path it will never attempt to invade. This is original BtS code, so it's the (more recent) addition of ZoCs that the AI is not yet up to date with I think. I'll add this to my (long and growing) list of things to look at. Off the top of my head the best way would be to have the city attack routine consider forts as potential attack targets, and just score them lower than most cities. That way if it can't attack a city it would choose a fort instead. The trick will be to get the score it uses to determine the best target tuned correctly.

Yes, I think you analyzed the problem to its root. As a bypass, to code it for AI toconsidering forts as cities would be an elegant and 'easy' to realize solution (although this could be exploited by humans to put forts on 75% defense tiles to trick AI into wasting units on them and thus have the 125% bonus way before cities with high walls+castles have such high values -- thus I argue to give forts +15% with mathematics only, [ZOC is worth well enough - btw plz exlude mounted/wheeled units from ZOC influence] +15% with siege warfare and maybe further + 20% with military science...

Do you have a save game that (probably) exhibits this that I can play with?

playing as Germany I had my eastern border to Russia clustered with forts and they never DOWed although for centuries they massed troops and sent lots of bandit riders to commit suicide on the forts. Later I changed 1 city on the finish border to have the national park wonder so I changed the forts there to forest preserve which means that I opened the front there a bit, so I try to pick an earlier save which I hope helps better.
If its not early enough plese tell me and I take a secound look for another safe game.


Regarding the Ai usage of forts, sry that I ask once again: You think you could bring the town watchmen/guards
to consider forts as cities and the AI stations 1-2 in them, like it would with its cities?

 

[Koshling]

Regarding the Ai usage of forts, sry that I ask once again: You think you could bring the town watchmen/guards
to consider forts as cities and the AI stations 1-2 in them, like it would with its cities?

AI use of forts is already on my list of things to do

Step one was turning off the unwise fort-spam it used to do just for their extra resources (in some civcs), which it then left unguarded. Step two will be to give a high priority to guarding them (and yes watchmen will be a natural unit that will fall into that role). Step three will be to improve its strategic positioning of them in regard to ZoCs and borders generally.

Edit - BTW this discussion doesn't belong here. It should be in one of the AI threads (which probably need ressurection from a last post a few months ago!)

 

[Hydromancerx]

I just had a brainwave!! (at least I think so )

How about if heroes worked like this:

• Initially they are always only modestly good military units with fairly modest special initial promotions (like warlord corporals and so on)
• They get a special hero-only promotion line that grants access to special builds, leading eventually to the achievements (so we could have a basic hero building that maybe adds culture or military specialist or something they get near the start, right up to the all-city achievements some of them have today)

This way you have to actually promote your hero up, all the time risking his destruction, to get access to the powerful achievements.

The benefits are:

• No need to limit hero availability to one per civ, or make them too hard to get
• New-born heroes are not especially powerful
• If you want to get to the powerful options you have to take risks. The extra tension of do-I-try-for-more-promotions vs build-what-I-can-now adds to gameplay
• Optionally the promotion line could branch, so that (for example) if you choose a 'lesser agricultural guru' promotion (which gives rise to the ability to construct the 'lesser agricultural achievement') which precludes then getting other 'lesser guru' promotions, but enables 'greater agricultural guru' (which allows you to build 'greater agricultural achievement')

This might need an extra prereqPromotion tag on unit constructions, but that would be super easy to add.

I dislike this idea because it still doesn't address the issue of civs either never getting heroes or getting too many. Also some cultures have none while others have like 4.

Also if you have a hero what if you are not playing a warmonger civ and want to play the game peacefully? This would mean you would have to fight in battle to get anything. I have another idea ...

You have 2 types of hero units a "Strategist" and a "War Hero". Every time you get to a new era you can pick a "Strategist" OR a "War Hero".

Strategists
Strategists are weak and main purpose is to build one of the Achievement buildings.

War Hero
War Heroes are strong for their era and can actually take heroic promotions. Upon reaching the next era you can upgrade your current hero to the next level. If you wish to retire your war hero you can make a "Heroic Monument" Which is not as nice as the Achievement buildings, but gives a good decreasing War Weariness.

What do you guys think?

 

[Koshling]

I dislike this idea because it still doesn't address the issue of civs either never getting heroes or getting too many. Also some cultures have none while others have like 4.

Also if you have a hero what if you are not playing a warmonger civ and want to play the game peacefully? This would mean you would have to fight in battle to get anything. I have another idea ...

You have 2 types of hero units a "Strategist" and a "War Hero". Every time you get to a new era you can pick a "Strategist" OR a "War Hero".

Strategists
Strategists are weak and main purpose is to build one of the Achievement buildings.

War Hero
War Heroes are strong for their era and can actually take heroic promotions. Upon reaching the next era you can upgrade your current hero to the next level. If you wish to retire your war hero you can make a "Heroic Monument" Which is not as nice as the Achievement buildings, but gives a good decreasing War Weariness.

What do you guys think?

I quite like this, but I still think the achievements are far too strong to 'just get'. Thevreason I wanted to do it via a promotion chain was to force you to work for the higher levels (via risk taking in combat). Perhaps there can be experience-granting missions of a non combat nature.

Alternatively, for the strategists perhaps they could have a series of achievements in each branch ( agricultural, scientific, etc.), and you can't build the greater achievement in any line until you have built the lesser. That way your first hero has to choose an achievement type to start off, and you still have to work for the bigger achievements, spending multpe heroes to get the best ones.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am just throwing this out there but what if there were "Hero Points" in the same way there are "Great People Point"?

I quite like this, but I still think the achievements are far too strong to 'just get'. Thevreason I wanted to do it via a promotion chain was to force you to work for the higher levels (via risk taking in combat). Perhaps there can be experience-granting missions of a non combat nature.

Alternatively, for the strategists perhaps they could have a series of achievements in each branch ( agricultural, scientific, etc.), and you can't build the greater achievement in any line until you have built the lesser. That way your first hero has to choose an achievement type to start off, and you still have to work for the bigger achievements, spending multpe heroes to get the best ones.

I like the idea of experience granting missions. I know some games have "Achievements" or "Badges" you can get. It would be very cool if we made a series of Heroic Achievements or badges that you could get by doing not only military battles but doing domestic things. Such as build X number of buildings to get X badge. Or build 3 specific wonders to get Y badge. Or even obtain X number of resources to get Z badge.

I like the Achivement building upgrade tree. That would make a lot of sense and give some great goals.

 

[strategyonly]

I am just throwing this out there but what if there were "Hero Points" in the same way there are "Great People Point"?

I like the idea of experience granting missions. I know some games have "Achievements" or "Badges" you can get. It would be very cool if we made a series of Heroic Achievements or badges that you could get by doing not only military battles but doing domestic things. Such as build X number of buildings to get X badge. Or build 3 specific wonders to get Y badge. Or even obtain X number of resources to get Z badge.

I like the Achievement building upgrade tree. That would make a lot of sense and give some great goals.

WOW, that sounds even better, nice thought process. But to implement it, hmm

 

[Koshling]

WOW, that sounds even better, nice thought process. But to implement it, hmm

Would a cheap option just be to make them a new type of great person?

 

[strategyonly]

Would a cheap option just be to make them a new type of great person?

But wouldn't that then take the Hero concept away? OK i am lost again, sorry, i like both ways

 

[Koshling]

But wouldn't that then take the Hero concept away? OK i am lost again, sorry, i like both ways

Well, what's really the difference between 'hero points' and 'GP points for a GP of type 'hero''. I'm just saying that the GP points mechanism already exists and by defining a GP type called hero you can simulate (more or less) hero points. All it would need would be small piece of Python to trap the onTrained() for the hero-GP and replace them with a specific hero unit wouldn't it?

I have to say however, I DO prefer a promotion-based scheme, and non-combat-earned promotions would be a nice concept to add to the game, which rounds out the promotion-based approach to address the points Hyrdo raised...of course that leads onto a potentially rather large debate (and ensuing effort) about the nature of non-combat-earned promotions...

 

[BlueGenie]

I'd much prefer if Heroes advancement wasn't as much with combatXP as it is. It's WAY easy to build Nobles, Warlords, and such, and mass up XP on a Hero. Getting to the last and best Achievement that way would be very easy. Just have a new unit on the same plot as the Hero every time and have that unit lead by warlord upgrade, for shared XP for both units.
It would work if the "Led By" only gave the extra XP to the unit actually led by it...

I don't mind it being by either Combat (but not XP, amount of units killed instead then maybe) or non-combat, as long as it's not CombatXP based in any way.

I mentioned somewhere that a Hero could be a Great General too, or instead. That way gaining a certain level or amount of XP won't be based on direct combat, or on free XP gained from nobles line, but on combat scenarios where the Hero helped win fights.

The question then I suppose would be what to do with the current Great Generals, unless they are removed in lieu of those points being spent towards Heroes instead?

That would mean that Heroes came to those that fought a lot. Having Quests (like the on-it's-way new trait system) for the non-combat gain of heroes might be a solution. For instance every 3rd Golden Age a Civ enters it gets a Hero, or every 3rd City reaching Legendary Culture. Should be big things like that anyway.

Cheers

 

[Epona222]

I have mentioned on a couple of other threads that I really like the hero units that have been added to the game - now I have spotted this thread I realise this is the appropriate place to say thank you.

Over 2 games (1 single player, and 1 hotseat against my husband) I have now built a few hero units and I love the unit graphics and buttons, and the promotions are interesting, it's often difficult to decide which promotion to go for because they all have some really good benefits. It now feels like a real achievement to build a culture wonder and then get access to the heroes!

One small question - is the hero unit information in an XML file? And if so where can I find that, or is it more complicated than that? This is going to sound silly but I have an ongoing joke with my husband regarding something that happened in our first C2C hotseat game, and it would be hilarious and very rewarding if I were able to add a hero unit specific to this running joke that would just show up in his list of available units next time we started up our hotseat game - it would be well worth a bit of work on my part just to see the look on his face.

 

[Hydromancerx]

If you were to use a hero unit as a template I don't think that making a modular hero would be too hard.

However what would be really cool is if somehow in the game you could make your own custom hero. I have no idea how this would be done.

 

[Epona222]

If you were to use a hero unit as a template I don't think that making a modular hero would be too hard.

However what would be really cool is if somehow in the game you could make your own custom hero. I have no idea how this would be done.

I would like to do it the really cool way and design my own from scratch, but I cannot do graphics to save my life (IMO as you get older you realise there is some stuff you are just no good at, so concentrate on things you are good at because life is too short to spend ages trying to do things that you have no talent for badly!) the joke revolves around a Kannushi (Shinto Missionary) so I would just want to use that graphic for a hero unit, if all the properties and promotions info for hero units are in an XML file somewhere then I should be able to work the rest of it out if I can study that for a bit - so if someone can just point me in the direction of the folder and file I will probably be able to work it out (I'm much better at the logical stuff, it's the arty stuff that flummoxes me!)

 

[ls612]

I would like to do it the really cool way and design my own from scratch, but I cannot do graphics to save my life (IMO as you get older you realise there is some stuff you are just no good at, so concentrate on things you are good at because life is too short to spend ages trying to do things that you have no talent for badly!) the joke revolves around a Kannushi (Shinto Missionary) so I would just want to use that graphic for a hero unit, if all the properties and promotions info for hero units are in an XML file somewhere then I should be able to work the rest of it out if I can study that for a bit - so if someone can just point me in the direction of the folder and file I will probably be able to work it out (I'm much better at the logical stuff, it's the arty stuff that flummoxes me!)

All the heroes XML is in the core IIRC. The files to start in are CIV4UnitInfos, CIV4UnitClassInfos, and CIV4ArtDefines_Unit. You'll also need to make a gametext XML file, and add your module to the MLF. A few other quick notes; Make sure you name the Schema files something other than C2C_whatever, ie the units Schema should be called Epona_CIV4UnitSchema.xml or something similar. Don't make ArtDefines errors, as those can be hard to track. Good luck.

 

[Epona222]

All the heroes XML is in the core IIRC. The files to start in are CIV4UnitInfos, CIV4UnitClassInfos, and CIV4ArtDefines_Unit. You'll also need to make a gametext XML file, and add your module to the MLF. A few other quick notes; Make sure you name the Schema files something other than C2C_whatever, ie the units Schema should be called Epona_CIV4UnitSchema.xml or something similar. Don't make ArtDefines errors, as those can be hard to track. Good luck.

Thank you that's very useful -I already considered that I would have to make a different naming convention, so that I could easily identify and track my own changes and move them from one version to another.

If I end up doing this OK and it works who knows I might end up volunteering to do some stuff for C2C (trying to do something you really want to see in the game for your own personal use, however ridiculous, is a good motivator to learn how to mod!) Just don't ask me to do anything artistic

 

[strategyonly]

Well not exactly correct, i have a few heroes in the modular format already, ie: Spartacus, Gladiator and The 300. Both Gladiator and Spartacus use events and python, so they would be bad examples, but the 300 is a darn good place to start, it is all by itself, and you can make ANY hero you want, actually what you want should be pretty easy, since the graphics are already in the game, then its just a matter of XML work. Good Luck and i hope you make him

 

[CommanderD]

Hi,

As requested I'm posting my 'super heroes' ideas here. I should have done this first, but I didn't know this thread existed.

My idea would be for very powerful 'super heroes & Villians' with names such as Captain Marverlous, The Bulk, Dr Gloom and any other take on comic book heroes names. If at all possible, they should have different specs, maybe for movemet speed, flight, strength, defence, maybe a bombard option. For me, it would seem best if these heroes became available after the discovery of Homo Superior or similar. They would appear in the same way as great people. However, villians would appear as 'super barbarians', while heroes would be available to the player as 'super soldiers'. It might also be nice to some of both appearing as an 'event'.

Also, maybe a 'super hero' could build a special building in a city called "Super Base" which would increase the changes of 'super heroes' appearing slightly and maybe add to a cities defence.

I also don't know how possible it would be, but could 'super villians' be made to build a 'lair' as a terrain features whiich could spawn henchmen, which again would behave like barbarians.

I guess, it would be best to include this as an option as I'm sure 'super heroes' aren't to everyone's tastes.

Ok, those are my thoughts, it would be great to see it implemented, but I'm sure you're very busy with all the ideas.

Thanks again for this mod and thanks for reading.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am going to stop you now. While we have alternative timelines, I have drawn the line at magic, super powers and paranormal stuff. Even with Homo Superior having a "super friends" group is just silly and should stay in the comic books and cartoons.

As for Trans-Human Heroes, I don't see why not if linked to a trans-human culture.