RFC: a few thoughts on certain civs and starting positions

[Ghandi Khan]

Love this scenario, just a couple thoughts.

1. The Turks. They start right at Ankara. I know that's the capital of Turkey... but this isn't a very good place for them to start as it will probably be right in the middle of the Greek, Roman, Babylonian, Persian, Egyptian or Arab empires when it does show up (whomever is still around at that point), and it's not even historically accurate. Wouldn't it be better to put them over in Turkmenistan or somewhere else in central Asia, where historically the Turkish people actually did originate? The land over there is far more likely to be unoccupied and give the Turks a reasonable chance at getting a decent foothold. I think it would make sense to start there and then make it part of their HV conditions to control Asia Minor, and maybe even move their palace to Ankara or Istanbul. Also, the computer always settles crappy tiles in Turkey.. if they moved one space north in most cases their position would be far more optimal as they would either be closer to food resources or not sitting on top of them so they can't use them, or they would have a harbor. Maybe the map could be adjusted a little bit.. moving some resources around a little bit so the cities could be on the same plots without sabotaging their own ability to feed themselves?

2. The Americans. Why does everyone hate on American culture? They have one star in this scenario. If I had to think realistically about any cities in the world today that actually had achieved legendary culture, the first two that would come to mind would be New York and Los Angeles. Some argument could be made for Paris, Rome and Jerusalem... but American culture dominates the world today like NO other city or civilization in history ever has. But... with such a late start.. and such a poor cultural rating.. it's impossible for them to catch up in this scenario. If anything they should have a huge bonus, not be operating at a defecit. Only the very ancient civilizations have any hope of winning a cultural victory in RFC.

3. nations declaring independence... I think this is cool... but is there any way to fix the way that whenever a city flips all the buildings in it are destroyed? So annoying. Mecca and Cairo have both flipped for me.. both are very important cities in my empire. I reconquered each almost immediately, but found almost every single building in each city obliterated. I can sort of understand this happening in conquest, as a side effect of warfare, but if people were just rising up to proclaim their independence would they really raze every building in the city when they did so? Doesn't make sense... highly irritating. I'm also very scared of this happening in Delhi. So far the Indians have not come back since I wiped them out a long long time ago, and Delhi is my second most important city after Ashur (I started as the Babylonians and changed my starting location, there is no Babil... then I took over the Persians when they showed up). I'm working toward a cultural victory, but if Delhi flips and every building in it is lost before I can reconquer it... ugh.. =P

 

[Rhye]

1. If I moved them to Turkmenistan they would never be able to reach Anatolia and Istanbul. Would just be crippled by Persia

2. In my opinion America is already powerful and can take away good slices from the colonizers. No need to strenghten them in a field where supremacy is not so agreed in the rest of the world

3. Don't know why it happens. It shouldn't.

 

[Ghandi Khan]

2. In my opinion America is already powerful and can take away good slices from the colonizers. No need to strenghten them in a field where supremacy is not so agreed in the rest of the world

3. Don't know why it happens. It shouldn't.

2. The rest of the world's pride means the game should be less realistic? Nobody has ever achieved global cultural hegemmony the way the US has. Not even close. They may be strong enough as is, but still starting in the 18th century the way they do it's more or less impossible to win a cultural victory, don't you agree? Yet they should have a better shot than any other civ. Even the wonders in vanilla civ reflect this reality. Broadway, Rock n Roll, Hollywood... where are these places?

3. strange. could be a bug I guess. I've noticed plenty of others. Last one I stumbled across involved not being able to gift technologies directly. I have to select something they have and ask what they want for it, or sometimes it's flipped and I have to offer something I have and ask what they'll give. This happens when I start as the Ethiopians and then switch to the Arabs.

Anyway, thanks for the response and for the scenario.

 

[senturus]

f I had to think realistically about any cities in the world today that actually had achieved legendary culture, the first two that would come to mind would be New York and Los Angeles

Very american point of view.

 

[mice]

2. The Americans. Why does everyone hate on American culture?

I think it's because American culture tends to obliterate other cultures. Also there is a dumbing down of culture, for example MacDonalds replacing cuisines of the world, which people resent because it makes their lives poorer.
Having said that I'm not anti-American because I know there are good people everywhere.

 

[Rhye]

If I had to think realistically about any cities in the world today that actually had achieved legendary culture, the first two that would come to mind would be New York and Los Angeles.

my top 3 would be Rome, Paris and Beijing; New York is in a good position. But Los Angeles ?!? Are you serious?

2. The rest of the world's pride means the game should be less realistic? Nobody has ever achieved global cultural hegemmony the way the US has. Not even close. They may be strong enough as is, but still starting in the 18th century the way they do it's more or less impossible to win a cultural victory, don't you agree? Yet they should have a better shot than any other civ. Even the wonders in vanilla civ reflect this reality. Broadway, Rock n Roll, Hollywood... where are these places?

I wouldn't say Broadway is a wonder of the world. In fact I deleted it.
Rock n Roll is a generic name given to Graceland, which is a wonder of the world only for Elvis's fans. For Beatles fans, for example, could be Abbey Road; for Queen fans the statue of Freddie Mercury in Monteux, and so on.
Hollywood...it's controversial. I wouldn't call it a wonder but I can't deny its worldwide influence.
You mention vanilla wonders... they were in fact America-centric. I tried to decentralise them first in the civ4 alpha tests, then in RFC.

Anyway, thanks for the response and for the scenario.

Thanks to you!

 

[Ermelinho]

2. The rest of the world's pride means the game should be less realistic? Nobody has ever achieved global cultural hegemmony the way the US has. Not even close. They may be strong enough as is, but still starting in the 18th century the way they do it's more or less impossible to win a cultural victory, don't you agree? Yet they should have a better shot than any other civ. Even the wonders in vanilla civ reflect this reality. Broadway, Rock n Roll, Hollywood... where are these places?

I think it´s not cultural hegemmony but economical. American culture still is not self-contained. they don´t even have an own language. the fact that most of the world knows "their" language is likewise a british achievement.

so in the scenario america should rather found corporations than have a stronger culture.

 

[Ruthless]

I think it's because American culture tends to obliterate other cultures. Also there is a dumbing down of culture, for example MacDonalds replacing cuisines of the world, which people resent because it makes their lives poorer.
Having said that I'm not anti-American because I know there are good people everywhere.

If American culture obliterates other cultures, isn't that the essence of "cultural victory"? Having a cultural victory isn't about having a great culture, it's about having a dominant, influential culture. While there are lots and lots of valid criticisms of American culture, you can't deny it's influence and dominance.

Just because you dislike a country doesn't mean you should unrealistically weaken it. It's petty, and slightly hurts this overall excellent mod.

 

[Whitefire]

You're confusing culture with economics. Congratulations, you're an American!

But seriosuly, LA is a world-class cultural center? WTF? Have you ever been to Hollywood and dealt with the bum sex and the massive amounts of human waste that cover the old, tired edifices of long-closed, single-screen theaters that have fallen to the economic efficiency that America celebrates? LA is a wasteland of trends bygone, and trends that wish to be. Culture doesn't emanate from there, it's voraciously eaten and disposed of, like some puerile glutton feasting on an endless buffet. I'd sooner rate Lincoln as a cultural center than LA.

 

[Ghandi Khan]

I am absolutely serious about L.A. The influence of Hollywood is absolutely PERVASIVE the entire world over.

I think Ruthless has hit the nail on the head. We're not arguing over who has the best culture, but who has legendary culture and therefore obtains a cultural victory. Think about what this actually means in the context of the game. What constitutes cultural victory? In my mind this means dominating the world, not through military force, or popular election, but through the dominance of your culture.

To win a cultural victory in the game requires you have 3 cities that achieve "legendary culture" status. Now, what does this mean?

"Culture" has many definitions. The one I prefer, the one that is most commonly used in anthropology, is: "the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another." This includes everything, from Shakespeare all the way down to McDonald's advertising jingles. By this definition it doesn't matter if you like a thing, it doesn't matter if you classify something as "high art" or "puerile," and no note is taken of the size of the stick up your bum. None of this factors into what I consider to be part of "culture."
The definition I prefer for legendary is: "Extremely well known; famous or renowned." Some definitions throw in an addendum that a thing must be very good or well-liked to be legendary (otherwise I guess it would be infamous or notorious)... but I don't like this definition as much because it's too subjective. Simple recognition is easily measurable.

So.. by this defintion... I absolutely maintain that L.A. (including Hollywood and DisneyLand) and New York have legendary culture. Tour around the world and ask people to name famous cities they know and New York and Hollywood will come up, I guarantee it.

and for evidence of how the USA has achieved cultural victory in the real world... it's everywhere and not hard to see. I've been to 17 countries now, lived in several. Yet, everywhere I go, people go see Hollywood films. They listen to American rock, R&B, and hip-hop. They watch American television programs. They eat at American fast food restaurants. They dance using American dances. They enjoy the benefits of American medical breakthroughs. They pay top dollar for American shoes.
Then they go home, turn on their American-invented computers, log on to this American invention we call the internet, go to their favorite message board discussing the American video games they play, and argue (in English, of course, because that's the most commonly spoken language you-know-where and everyone wants to learn it) that America has no culture. =) Forgive me my smirk.

Now... it's definitely correct to say that American culture borrows, assimilates, steals, obliterates, or whatever... from other cultures around the world both today and in the past. But... this is not a valid criticism. Every culture has done this. We're all still ripping off the Sumerians.

To be honest, I agree with you the Americans in this scenario are strong enough. That wasn't my complaint. Actually... I think they're probably TOO strong, militarily from a historical standpoint. They were able to "manifest destiny", true... but when they fought the British they only won because they were fighting on their own turf and had some superior generals. The American colonists were a ragtag band of hicks with muskets. In the game, they start with riflemen and cannons, and lots of them, likely to be a far superior force to anything any other power is able to field on the continent at that point.
and in truth, I haven't actually noticed that the low star-rating of culture makes a big difference in the game. It just seemed like a typical and cliche insult to put it at one star, and unrealistic as well. Plus, I like having some flexibility with how to go about achieving victories. As I already said, only the very early Civs in this scenario have any shot at achieving a cultural victory. Maybe you could tweak it so you need less points the later your starting point is?

also.. one p.s.: I think Broadway is a much better choice than Wembley. I love European culture, absolutely love it, but I really really hope some stupid football stadium isn't the greatest example of it. I'd rather go see a musical any day. maybe that's just me. I'd say the two things are about equally well known around the world.

sorry I lied, one more p.s.: Rock n' Roll may go best in Memphis. but... it's a concept, not a place. I don't think it was actually meant to be Graceland.

 

[Ghandi Khan]

Very american point of view.

False, it's a very objective point of view, one tempered by being an educator in many different countries around the world, only one of which was the United States. your assessment of my point of view is a very cliche and tired point of view itself.

 

[Whitefire]

So.. by this defintion... I absolutely maintain that L.A. (including Hollywood and DisneyLand)

Dude, Disneyland is in Anaheim, which is in Orange County. It's an hour drive from Anaheim to LA proper. I don't care if the Angles are called the LA Angels now, Anaheim was not magically annexed. Futhermore, Hollywood is a different city from LA. And it has been for years. Just like Beverly Hills is a different city from LA. Out here, we're not like other major cities that have 10's of districts. LA has 7 (depending on who you talk to) and the rest of the cities are part of LA county.

I love European culture, absolutely love it, but I really really hope some stupid football stadium isn't the greatest example of it. I'd rather go see a musical any day.

*snerk*

 

[Ghandi Khan]

Dude, Disneyland is in Anaheim, which is in Orange County. It's an hour drive from Anaheim to LA proper. I don't care if the Angles are called the LA Angels now, Anaheim was not magically annexed. Futhermore, Hollywood is a different city from LA. And it has been for years. Just like Beverly Hills is a different city from LA. Out here, we're not like other major cities that have 10's of districts. LA has 7 (depending on who you talk to) and the rest of the cities are part of LA county.

Who cares what the municipal boundaries technically are? It's all the same huge megalopolis. You're really nitpicking.

 

[Whitefire]

Who cares what the municipal boundaries technically are? It's all the same huge megalopolis. You're really nitpicking.

So you're going to lump in San Diego along with LA, since it's all one unbroken stretch of human development? Besides, it's not for you to decide where LA starts and ends, it's for those who live there to decide. All of us are acutely aware where the city and county lines are and have drawn identities around them. You may call it nitpicking, but that's a huge part of Southern California's culture and social hierarchy. Hell, we have even further sub-divisions based on what zip code or telephone area code you're from.

I don't see why you're commenting on a culture you obviously have little understanding of, besides movies.

 

[Ghandi Khan]

I don't see why you're commenting on a culture you obviously have little understanding of, besides movies.

I've lived in LA before. It's the anchor that all these other areas are tied into. I don't give two horsehockys what your stupid area code is. What are you? In high school? Subscribing to such juvenile and meaningless distinctions isn't something to be proud of.

On the subject of obvious things, you're obviously a . .. .. .. .ing ******. Amazing how the biggest dumbasses on the 'net are always the ones who are completely full of themselves and their own dumb opinions and condescending toward everyone else.

 

[Whitefire]

On the subject of obvious things, you're obviously a . .. .. .. .ing ******. Amazing how the biggest dumbasses on the 'net are always the ones who are completely full of themselves and their own dumb opinions and condescending toward everyone else.

I'm sorry, that seemed the only way you knew how to communicate. ^_^

False, it's a very objective point of view, one tempered by being an educator in many different countries around the world, only one of which was the United States. your assessment of my point of view is a very cliche and tired point of view itself.

And, lock thread!

 

[Grimz101]

I've lived in LA before. It's the anchor that all these other areas are tied into. I don't give two horsehockys what your stupid area code is. What are you? In high school? Subscribing to such juvenile and meaningless distinctions isn't something to be proud of.

On the subject of obvious things, you're obviously a . .. .. .. .ing ******. Amazing how the biggest dumbasses on the 'net are always the ones who are completely full of themselves and their own dumb opinions and condescending toward everyone else.

way to make yourself look like an idiot.. sure people know what New York is.. not since it awes and inspires them cultrally.. but because of $$$ there.. Hollywood films everywhere.. well think about the billions spent on advertising, and nice that you managed to completely ignore Bollywood.. which is played in Asian countries everywhere, even though its gone through periods of being banned in Pakistan and other Asian countries alike by goverments, because they either dont like India or because of Religious differences.. yet it still gets played everywhere.. You gotta remember the negatives about American culture.. crips and bloods ect

 

[senturus]

False, it's a very objective point of view, one tempered by being an educator in many different countries around the world, only one of which was the United States. your assessment of my point of view is a very cliche and tired point of view itself.

I can't argue due to my average level of english, and i am not fond of nationalistics debates "we are the best in the world".

But of course, naturally, only a very typical american would say that cinema and hamburgers make "legendary culture". But the two most visited towns of the world are not New York or LA. Very strange for the cultural centers of the world. One day perhaps, you will learn the humility, like many other civilizations before you.

 

[Troymk1]

Culture in LA??

Oh my.

 

[Koba the Dread]

Dear senturus,

IMHO your English is quite good; don't sell yourself short! You're 100% correct, nationalistic debates on the forums can get ugly and usually have little relevance to the topic at hand.

However, I have to take you to task for your characterization of the typical American. How many typical American's do you personally know? What's your definition of a typical American?

I'm not hating on you, just hating on the negativity towards America; which these forums seem to have a lot of - but that's not that's not the point.

Sorry for wasting everyone's time with a post that has nothing to do with starting positions in RFC.