Dune Wars 1.9 Final Release Feedback

[Deliverator]

This thread is for feedback on Dune Wars 1.9.1 and its patches, prior to the eventual release of Dune Wars 2.0.

The latest full version of Dune Wars is version 1.9.1. (I know that it looks like a patch for 1.9, but it's not.)

The latest patch is Dune Wars 1.9.2, see here for more information.

This is a patch for Dune Wars 1.9.1. If you have an earlier version (including 1.9), uninstall it and install the linked 1.9.1 first. If in doubt, delete your Mods/Dune Wars folder and start again with DW 1.9.1.

 

[Deliverator]

WORK LIST
-----------

General

+ Forest feature was intended to give +1 hammers. In beta 2 at least, it isn't. Its only in grassland sinks, its designed to be a production compensation for the hammer removal from grassland, and to make sure that sink tiles are still superior even once terraformed. - DONE

+ Investigate raising unit maintenance - Partially done

+ Obsolete Improvements

+ Building Infos - FFH2 - RemovePromotion - Poorly Maintained

+ Axolotl tanks - Immortality

+ I wonder if we should also consider increasing the tile yields of bonus resources (iron, nitrates, crystal, etc) for the higher end mines, since in general you'll only have the advanced mines on the bonus resources, so they're pretty lame with just the +1 extra bonus.

+ Review this thread.

+ Role Playing Game Option

+ Atomics reworking - link

+ Mentat redesign (CityBonuses - Decimals?)

+ Reduce Monitor cost

+ Genetic manipulation tech seems like it should be required for the Kwizatz Haderach. Can we add is as a secondary requirement for the 3rd and 4th Kwizatz projects?

+ final pass over faction balance/differentiation - Link
- Ordos:
Could we have an Ordos UB somewhere that gave some extra EPs,
Maybe a University replacement? Or a Bank replacement? Something that emphasizes their techno-raider mercenary theme.

+ Have civilizations decide at the beginning of each game whether they are going to pursue Arrakis Paradise or Arrakis Spice for that game. Give each leader a pro-Spice probability to control this:
Never adopt Paradise: Bene Gesserits, Ecaz
80/20 spice: Corrino, Harkonnen, Ix, Ordos
80/20 paradise: Leto I, Alia, Tleilaxu?, others?
Never adopt spice: Liet-Kynes, Stilgar, Leto II, Muad'Dib

+ Fremen Sietch improvement to be built on Caves - something like +1 water, +1 hammer, +1 commerce, +1 population at nearest city (no net water cost), very long build time.

+ Strengthen Thinking Machines religion and make more interesting
- All the Thinking Machine stuff is clustered. How about we add Research labs as an And requirement for the Computerized research lab?

+ Sandstorms - Thopters - bigger sandstorms

+ Leto II -> Adaptive Trait?

+ conscription from buildings - Razzia Command - Jihad Veterans Barracks

Art/Pedia/Text
+ Worker Unitclass Icon
+ Replace Water based action icons
+ Switch Ducal Guard graphics - Fall Further technique
+ Update Hints
+ More logical Improvement Shortcuts
+ Make Diamond,etc disappear when mine built
+ Beesting/Wasp Interceptor graphic very annoying.

Documentation

+ Great Processor hammers
+ Fremen free Sayyadina
+ Religious trait free great prophet
+ Tech tree arrows
+ I hope espionage will get more thorough documentation and its own entry in the Dune Wars Concepts section.

Bugs / Issues

+ I can verify that interceptors loaded on suspensor carriers can't be set to intercept.

Bugs from 1.8 - still valid?

+ No-Ships Bug: currently displaces all defending units from their city / which displaces all defending units from their city

+ AI trades Goods for nothing? sapho juice, ginaz and groundwater

+ Annex Crash:
- Crashed a few times for me. Each time it was caused by attempting to use Annex. Annex does not, however, always crash (even in the same game, reload, annex same city on a later turn).

+ Observed several bugs with saboteurs and facedancers in V1.8 like preparation promo not working, messages "saboteur/facedancer" captured" (which kinda reveals which civ send them) or messages like "an Infiltrator ... capture near the Ordos city of Ordos" (instead of actual city names).

+ Check: If spice silos aren't disappearing when you switch out of Spice, then that's a bug that should be corrected.

+ BG:
But I think there is a known bug with it. It should immediately give the AI the city even if they didn't have any military units conquered in it.
Its something to be aware of; you can't ignore espionage in this game. The ability is incredibly expensive (they have to build up thousands of EP) so having some EPs invested against the BG will help protect you from this by increasing their costs out of reach.

 

[strategynoob]

Hi, I have played some 1.8 and really enjoyed it. I didn't know 1.9 was out! I will download and send feedback as soon as I can!

Thank you for this great mod!

 

[Ahriman]

Could we have some debate/discussion over the hard-coded diplomacy vendetta values?
This feels too strong to me, and too limiting in forcing particular strategies. For example, playing as Atreides I am forced into having both Corrino and Harkonnen as perpetual enemies. I can't for example play as a good loyal subject of the Corrino Emperor, or effectively follow a diplomatic strategy.
If people like it in general then I'll shut up about it, but it would be good to here what people think. I think I prefer being able to choose my enemies.

As a compromise, we could keep the Harkonnen vendetta but remove the Corrino one.

The other thing I'd add for discussion/consideration: events. We spent a while on event brainstorming, and could easily come up with more.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=377523
Deliverator is this something you'd consider coding? Are others interested in seeing these?

 

[Jester Fool]

Could we have some debate/discussion over the hard-coded diplomacy vendetta values?
This feels too strong to me, and too limiting in forcing particular strategies. For example, playing as Atreides I am forced into having both Corrino and Harkonnen as perpetual enemies. I can't for example play as a good loyal subject of the Corrino Emperor, or effectively follow a diplomatic strategy.
If people like it in general then I'll shut up about it, but it would be good to here what people think. I think I prefer being able to choose my enemies.

I like the vendetta values, however, IMO, if possible, it would be better to make this an option (House Vendettas?) - e.g. raging barbarians, victory conditions etc. A side benefit would be to enhance the replayability of Dune Wars (for the reason Ahriman states above).

The other thing I'd add for discussion/consideration: events. We spent a while on event brainstorming, and could easily come up with more. Deliverator is this something you'd consider coding? Are others interested in seeing these?

Events should be included (really the only thing I can think of that is needed to make the mod *complete*).

 

[Ahriman]

I like the vendetta values, however, IMO, if possible, it would be better to make this an option (House Vendettas?) - e.g. raging barbarians, victory conditions etc.

I like this. I'm generally against just making things options, but this seems like a very logical option to me; some people might prefer playing a more RP style, some might not.

If we're doing something like this, we could even extend it. We could have a "canon roleplay" option which forces a bunch of canon decisions, like forcing preference for Spice vs Paradise, forcing preferred religion adoption (so factions will always adopt a preferred religion if possible, over all others) and the vendettas.

* * *
Another note: I thought the intention for the Atreides promotions "Ducal guard" etc, were that these were a free option that didn't take up a normal promotion slot. As currently implemented, they take a promotion slot.

 

[Deliverator]

I like this. I'm generally against just making things options, but this seems like a very logical option to me; some people might prefer playing a more RP style, some might not.

Making this a game option seems to be the popular choice. I did soften the effect by approximately 50% between 1.9 Beta II and 1.9 Final.

Another note: I thought the intention for the Atreides promotions "Ducal guard" etc, were that these were a free option that didn't take up a normal promotion slot. As currently implemented, they take a promotion slot.

You mean that the promotions should cost zero experience points? I think that is doable via an XML change. I'll try it out.

 

[davidlallen]

IMHO it may be confusing to have some free promotions, which you still have to select. There are other promotions which are automatically granted; this is fine, because those never show as available to a unit with enough experience. If there is a free promotion granted by some tech, then every unit regardless of experience is "available" for a promotion. But only that promotion.

I can see a RP argument that the promotion should be free; once you get the tech, you as leader of your civ appoint the N number of units you want in your guard. But from a gameplay perspective, it seems confusing to have only one promotion follow this model.

 

[Ahriman]

You mean that the promotions should cost zero experience points?

Yes. Though this may entail reducing the #cap of them available.

The idea was for Atreides to have a small core of superior infantry. They aren't really that superior if you have to give up a promotion slot for the +1 strength, so they don't quite meet their design purpose.

I don't see it as that confusing, no more so than any other mechanic. Remember that they're limited to only melee/guardsmen. Its pretty obvious to players, because it becomes a selectable promotion even when no other promotions are available.
Having them selected rather than automatic allows the player to choose which units are their core - important if they want to make sure they're on a melee unit (because they're going to follow a melee-oriented strategy) or a guardsman unit. And they might want to put them on units already highly promoted. So there's a minor and fun strategic option opened by making them selectable.

appoint the N number of units you want in your guard

And these units are led and trained by the handful of Superior personalities attracted to work for the Atreides out of love/loyalty (Hawat, Idaho, etc.). Which was what we were trying to model.

 

[Ahriman]

I've noticed something odd in the mapscript. Many Graben tiles are not Sink elevation.

For example:

Spoiler :

 

[Ahriman]

It would be great if we could make one more look at the unload AI.
I still find that in the vast majority of cases, the AI moves its suspensor transports onto my land without unloading, and only unloads on the next turn, giving a full turn in which I can use my land units to destroy the transports without having to fight the cargo.

We ideally want the transports to unload on the same turn in which they make landfall.

*edit*
Cymek requires Thinking Machines religion present; it should require Thinking Machines state religion.
Otherwise, why convert?

 

[rayquaza506]

Thanks for making this great mod guys, I appreciate all the hard work that you've put into this. Though I am wondering if your ever going to fix the multiplayer desync on combat issue. Me and my friend have been dieing to play this together. And once again thanks .

 

[Humakty]

I used a couple grenade troopers in my current game, and they dealt no collateral damages.

Thanks for not moving to civ 5 ! Just kiddin', great mod, bravo !

 

[davidlallen]

Though I am wondering if your ever going to fix the multiplayer desync on combat issue. Me and my friend have been dieing to play this together. And once again thanks .

"Theoretically", the only reason DW does not work in multiplayer is because of issues in the underlying mod RevolutionDCM. However, it seems there is a version 2.7 which fixes this:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=262937

Merging revdcm into dw is a very painful process, but if mp is really reliable, this would be a good improvement for dw.

EDIT: I cruised that thread more carefully. It was after 2.7, maybe in late March. See post 2524, 2654 in that thread for status. I did not cruise carefully after. Certainly, updating to the latest should get it, but the further you go from a base the harder merging becomes.

 

[AbsintheRed]

IIRC it was even later, somewhere around the release of 2.8
But the multi is fairly stable in the latest versions
Some small issues always comes up, but definitely playable

 

[Deliverator]

I've noticed something odd in the mapscript. Many Graben tiles are not Sink elevation.

Which mapscript was this? I wouldn't be suprised if this was happening with Dune Archipelago - I have tried and failed to fix things like this in that mapscript before - for example, the fact that you get the occasional Sink-Rugged plot. For some reason, the hacky post-processing we have in Dune Archipelago doesn't always work. I don't think I've seen issues like this with Arrakis mapscript, but there may be.

It would be great if we could make one more look at the unload AI.
I still find that in the vast majority of cases, the AI moves its suspensor transports onto my land without unloading, and only unloads on the next turn, giving a full turn in which I can use my land units to destroy the transports without having to fight the cargo.

We ideally want the transports to unload on the same turn in which they make landfall.

Yes, this would be good but we probably lack the know-how for the fix. Sephi suggested some code to resolve this - we tried a few different implementations of it, but they all lead to infinite loops at some point in the game. I'm not sure we'll make much progress with this unless one of the AI experts kindly provides us with a working fix.

Cymek requires Thinking Machines religion present; it should require Thinking Machines state religion.

Thanks, this will be fixed in next patch.

Merging revdcm into dw is a very painful process, but if mp is really reliable, this would be a good improvement for dw.

The best way I think would be to rebuild on the RevDCM 2.82 base. Working multiplayer would be a compelling reason to do it. I can tell they are on a much newer version of BUG than DW, and I guess they are on Better AI 1.01 too. I have time to look at this over the Christmas break if not before. It would be a fairly big job as we'd be merging over a year's worth of Dune Wars SDK and Python changes back into RevDCM.

Alternatively, it might be worth seeing if we can isolate the fix - but it sounds like there were multiple issues. I might PM lemmy101 and see if he can help.

 

[Deliverator]

From 1.9 beta thread:

Still playing a version of the Beta rather than the final, but I am able to build the Razzia Raider unit (playing as Atreides). This was supposed to be a Fremen UU.

This was fixed in 1.9 final.

And Fremen are supposed to be blocked from building Rollers, but they seem able to build them.
[And thopters, etc.]

Ooops. This must have crept in when I tidied up the UUs using the Fall Further code. I'll re-instate in the next patch.

Forest feature was intended to give +1 hammers. In beta 2 at least, it isn't. Its only in grassland sinks, its designed to be a production compensation for the hammer removal from grassland, and to make sure that sink tiles are still superior even once terraformed.

Will check this out.

Lets remove the no-nukes UN council vote. Its boring if nukes are banned before they can even be built, and we already have the idea of atomics being outlawed by the Great Convention.

Sounds reasonable.

 

[Deliverator]

Another general thought: is there a global parameter that changes unit upkeep? I wonder if we should increase unit upkeep, since we have large armies (high hammer output) and large gold income (spice, lots of bonuses from civics) relative to vanilla.
Unit upkeep never really seems to hurt in this mod - which in part means that civics like Hereditary rule are very strong because its easy to stack up large numbers of units to satisfy your happiness needs without hurting your economy.

Guide to Civ 4 unit maintenance here.

The options seem to be to increase one or both of:
a) Increase INITIAL_GOLD_PER_UNIT which is set to 1. We can mod the SDK to allow fractional values like 1.5 etc - by default it is an integer. If you want to experiment you could try setting this to 2 in GlobalDefines.xml.
b) Increase INITIAL_OUTSIDE_UNIT_GOLD_PERCENT this is set to 65% and affects the amount of Unit Supply that is paid for units outside your cultural borders.

 

[Ahriman]

Guide to Civ 4 unit maintenance here.

The options seem to be to increase one or both of:
a) Increase INITIAL_GOLD_PER_UNIT which is set to 1. We can mod the SDK to allow fractional values like 1.5 etc - by default it is an integer. If you want to experiment you could try setting this to 2 in GlobalDefines.xml.
b) Increase INITIAL_OUTSIDE_UNIT_GOLD_PERCENT this is set to 65% and affects the amount of Unit Supply that is paid for units outside your cultural borders.

Awesome, its exactly as simple as we could hope. The joy of XML.
I'll do some testing when I get a chance. I guess I worry that it could crash the AI's economy, because the human player gets by with fewer units than the AI and can use them more efficiently. And because the AI builds up large armies of infantry in the early game.

As another alternative, we could have some of the higher end-more powerful civics increase unit maintenance cost.

 

[God-Emperor]

Another option that can adjust all this is that civics can add a specific number a free units, free military units (I think this only has an effect if also running a civic that adds a cost for military units, as per Pacifism), or even free [military or not] units as a percentage of population. So if boosting their cost makes them a bit too expensive, you can allow some free units too.