Civ4 Lovers/Civ5 Haters Level of Optimism for Civ6

How optimistic are you about Civ6?

  • Extremely Optimistic

    Votes: 20 10.6%
  • Somewhat/Cautiously Optimistic

    Votes: 53 28.0%
  • Somewhat Pessimistic

    Votes: 68 36.0%
  • Completely Pessimistic

    Votes: 48 25.4%

  • Total voters
    189
My problem with them is that most of them are far too easy to get so the whole "requires careful planning" aspect goes away. Watching Quill play Rome, he played a game without paying any attention to Eurekas, only doing very short-term planning. He still got about half of the Eurekas for his techs anyway just for doing things he would have done anyway. I like the concept, but they should need a lot more focus to achieve them.

I think making them difficult to achieve would not be a good idea. I don't want to have to seriously consider artificial side quests that are difficult to achieve. I think they were meant to reward players who were active in a part of a game to be more active in that part of the game. Additionally, they also just place a bit of extra thought into your moves like, maybe I will build an extra-spearmen to get that bonus. But making them as hard quests that you need to achieve to keep up in the tech race would not be a good idea development wise in my opinion.
 
And the problem with Civ V and VI is not that they are bad games.
The problem is that Civ IV is way better.

That sums up my feelings on Civ V. If I'd never played a previous Civ, I'd probably be pretty happy with it. But I have, and Civ IV and Civ III are both much better, IMO. I recently started both a Civ III and a Civ V game... the Civ III game heated up pretty quickly, soon I had a half dozen cities, then more, then an ancient war, then Montezuma declared war on me. In the Civ V game, the pace of expansion was glacial by comparison (and I still hit the happiness penalty), although I did finally manage to lose a city for the first time ever by completely neglecting my military and sending literally all my combat units out exploring for 2500 years. And whereas losing one city in Civ V is a big deal because you have so few (and if you don't 100% neglect your military, it's almost impossible to lose one), in my Civ III game I lost a few cities, but had enough that it wasn't game over, and was able to fight back, retake them, make peace, have the Aztecs invade again, lose another city, etc. - it was a lot more fun.

And Civ IV trends closer to Civ III in that regard. Civ IV definitely favors defence more than Civ III does, and the overall number of cities is in between Civ III and Civ V, but the overall pacing and scale is much better than V, and it adds some nice additional options that III doesn't have. And it always amazes me how both III and IV have a noticeably better AI than V. Not that III and IV's AI is good necessarily (at least without mods), but it didn't take me 5 years to lose a city in them, either. That's something I hope they will have fixed in VI, but I'll wait and see the reports on it first.

Eurekas are another thing that I want to wait and see on. They sound potentially interesting, but the same could be said of city states in Civ V, and IMO they were a bust, especially in Vanilla. I'm wondering if a more graduated approach may have worked better. For example, instead of 50% off for building 3 farms or whatever, how about 10% off per farm up to 5 farms? Or even scale it a bit - 10% for one, 20% for three, 30% for five, 40% for eight, 50% for twelve? Point being that a 50% discount is big, and an arbitrary line in the sand has been drawn. That both can skew strategy - it may be worth doing something that makes no sense otherwise - and imposes a significant penalty for being just short. Whereas with a more graduated approach, you're still giving bonuses in areas to civs who do actions that are related to them (the stated raison d'être), but the bonuses you receive would evolve more naturally from your surroundings and playstyle than "here's a random spearman for a Eureka bonus".

Another idea would be to have in part the specific-Eureka-bonus-per-tech already shown, but also in part general skills in a certain area playing a part. For example, each tech may have a category - agricultural for instance - and performing agricultural actions - building farms and granaries - would increase your agricultural knowledge. You could get up to 25% off any agricultural tech for having maximum agricultural actions (and a lesser bonus for being somewhat agricultural), and perhaps another 25% for actions that vary per-tech, as currently Eureka bonuses do. That would provide some longer-term continuity in bonuses. You could even tie this in with production perhaps; a civ that constructs lots of large regular buildings like Aqueducts and Colosseums may be quicker at building Wonders as well, since they already have the expertise for large-scale construction (although I do like what they're already doing with more wonders being map-location-dependent; they did this with one wonder in Civ III, and there are resource bonuses for some wonders in Civ IV, but at least in concept I like that it's being expanded in Civ VI).
 
I like the Heroes of Might and Magic thing, you have a stack of units and then you enter a new screen for fighting.
 
And it always amazes me how both III and IV have a noticeably better AI than V.
It's pretty clear why. 1upt, which was a horrible mistake to make on a map with so few hexes. AI didn't know a thing how to handle it. I am worried that the AI is still as dumb as it is in Civ 5 how to handle it. Now, there is a new concept of stacking units. Let's see how it can handle such mechanisms. I foresee AI units with stacked catapults to run around the country having no clue that this combo is meant for attacking cities.
I am going to play AW to find out how it fares. Let's hope it's less braindead as in Civ 5
 
I like the Heroes of Might and Magic thing, you have a stack of units and then you enter a new screen for fighting.

You aren't the first to have suggested this ;). Suffice to say, I agree 90%. The only reason I don't agree 100% is that I'm not convinced Firaxis will ever develop a generic AI that poses an interesting tactical challenge.

In the early days of Civ5 much was made of the fact that the combat system was inspired by Panzer General. The key aspect of that which was lost, however, was that in scenario-based games like PG the AI programmer(s) know the map. It's orders of magnitude more difficult to program an AI that can fight well on a completely random map. So if we wanted to take the HMM route, we might end up having a small number of tactical maps that would be selected either randomly or based on the terrain/era. That could get boring pretty quickly, unless those maps were being regularly augmented. Maybe a DLC play here? I don't know.

Or, you can throw out the tactical map entirely, and go back to SoDs - which are at least relatively easy to program.
 
It's pretty clear why. 1upt, which was a horrible mistake to make on a map with so few hexes. AI didn't know a thing how to handle it. I am worried that the AI is still as dumb as it is in Civ 5 how to handle it. Now, there is a new concept of stacking units. Let's see how it can handle such mechanisms. I foresee AI units with stacked catapults to run around the country having no clue that this combo is meant for attacking cities.
I am going to play AW to find out how it fares. Let's hope it's less braindead as in Civ 5

I agree; 1 UPT is my least-favorite feature of Civ V, half because of the impact on the AI, and half because it makes moving large amounts of units quite tedious.

Stacks of Doom weren't perfect, but IMO were less bad than the solution that Firaxis chose to them. I think Paradox and some Civ4 mods hit closer to a correct solution in implementing attrition if there are too many units on a tile.

Oh, and the other quarter of why I didn't like 1 UPT is it imposed IMO too much of a tactical aspect onto a strategic map. Yes, a limited amount of tactics - making use of terrain, defending across rivers, defensive artillery fire (in Civ3) - is nice. But archers firing over land units on a map with a scale of at least dozens of miles per tile is silly. Not being able to combine a large amount of one's forces in a small area to force a way through also feels silly; there's nothing about four warriors and a couple archers that screams "too many units to support in one city/tile". I don't play Civ to play a tactical game; I play it to play a strategic game. IMO Total War gets the adding-tactics-to-a-strategy-game aspect better; the separate battles are where the tactics live, and they're much more detailed than what Civ offers, while the campaign map is all strategy (including things such as defending strategic chokepoints, controlling resources, etc.). You can ignore the tactical battle aspect of Total War completely if you wish to, and then it's fundamentally a strategic game.

I know that's five-fourths of why 1 UPT is my least-favorite feature in Civ V, but it really is by enough margin to have 125% justification. The scale is still a significant issue though, as is global happiness.
 
So - today/tomorrow Civ VI will come out. Yesterday the devs showed off a "Battle Royale", i.e. some AIs fighting it out among themselves. And while I didn't watch it just reading the thread about it makes me slightly worried...this comment sums up a lot:

But this stream proved a lot:
It proved why they don't upgrade units.
It proved that the settlement patterns are sometimes absurdly nonsensical (Russia's second City (and honestly, every city that followed, when they could have had at least two very good cities immediately to the north), Brazil's snow city).
It proved that the warmonger penalty is so heavily weighted, the mid and late game is virtually static.
It proved that, despite the AI programmer believing that civs only produce settlers when they have a spot to settle, the AIs still produce settlers (and leave them idle in their cities for 100s of turns).
It proved the AI has a bizarrely strong reluctance to repair things, even (as was the case with the Aztecs), there were a dozen builders sitting idle.
It proved (well the AI programmer admitted) that domination victory is NOT ACHIEVABLE by the AI.
It proved the AI programmers prediction that when the AIs declare a joint war, neither will actually attack. He'd seen it so many times, he could state unequivocally what would happen as soon as the war declaration occurred.
It proved this was also sometimes the case in single civ wars, as when Rome declared war on Japan, and did nothing (Twice. Really galling the second time, since despite having a huge pile of units around the nearest Roman city, virtually no Japanese defenders, and adjacent borders, they did nothing).
It proved the AI would start on victory conditions, but fail to follow up (Russia had a very early space port... but opted not to repair their industrial district and then never followed up. Vicky built a space port... then spammed mech infantry). The Aztecs pretty much stumbled into multiple victory conditions simultaneously, which demonstrates poor prioritization.

Some of these points are in IV as well (the AI hardly ever reaching a victory condition, spamming Settlers without having a place for them), and it's still an awesome game. But playing against AI which declare war and then do nothing, or against AI which have Warriors and Slingers as its army when I have modern units, or against AI which settle in stupid patterns doesn't sound too fun or challenging.

Still, I really want this game to succeed. So I'm anxious to read some REAL feedback from good players.

Oh, and apparently a review by pcgamer states the following:
Sight, sound, and systems harmonize to make Civilization 6 the liveliest, most engrossing, most rewarding, most challenging 4X in any corner of the earth.

making me really wonder how much you need to pay these guys for those sentences, and why they don't make it less obvious that they were bought.
 
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Most reviews are bought, i do not read any by now ~~
Only peoples i know can give an interesting opinion on games, peoples who think similar.

Reviewing a game on release day, lol shows how much time they spent on it before declaring it super game of the century. Pathetic.
 
Most reviews are bought, i do not read any by now ~~
Only peoples i know can give an interesting opinion on games, peoples who think similar.

Reviewing a game on release day, lol shows how much time they spent on it before declaring it super game of the century. Pathetic.

I doubt that bribes were given out but it definitely seems early to be giving a truly in depth review of a game.
 
I also don't think they were bought with money, but it's pretty obvious that the relationship between many big developers and the media rating their games are - well, let's say very good. The media get early information and early access to the games and have little to gain from rating those games only average. Plus "The Best Game Ever Made" is a better selling point for a games magazine then "Another Ambitious But Average Game".

There are contrary reports on the AI in the Civ VI subforum. Some tell about the AI hardly ever going to war and then doing it incompetently, some talk about being overrun by the AI 30 turns into the game. Maybe the unit thresholds for going to war are set at strange levels and can only be overcome by great production bonuses on the higher levels.
 
There are contrary reports on the AI in the Civ VI subforum. Some tell about the AI hardly ever going to war and then doing it incompetently, some talk about being overrun by the AI 30 turns into the game. Maybe the unit thresholds for going to war are set at strange levels and can only be overcome by great production bonuses on the higher levels.
I played a bit on immortal, normal speed. First DoW came just before T40, that was 2 AI declaring a joint war on me. Unfortunately, it appears there is no preparation for such a declaration, so no enemy units were in sight. Instead I took the war to their lands, beat them up a bit and they paid a ton of gold for peace. I realized quickly that I could not take their cities with the army I had, but I could do quite a lot of damage. Not much later, around T60, the third AI I knew also declared. This seemed like a prepared war as there was a ton of units entering my territory.

Then the big problem: In all these three wars I did not lose a single unit! I killed maybe 15-20 AI units but they didn't manage to kill any of my units. And this is the first time ever I play a 1upt civ game, I never touched Civ V. Now I understand what people mean when they say the AI can't handle 1upt.

Other than that the AI seems to be doing well. Around 1000 BC the largest of them is making double my science and culture /turn and is well ahead in tech. This despite me getting about 10 free builders from the wars and now having 6 cities with what I thought was a respectable amount of infra for this date.
 
Interesting comment. I think that in IV, if I got declared on by 2 AIs on Immortal on turn 40, and then by another with lots of units on turn 60 I would have a very tough time surviving, and at the very least would lose a fair amount of units and not get paid gold for peace.

If I hear more of those experiences I might just wait for some substantial patches and/or mods for that problem before buying.

By the way, is it possible to use diplomacy to guard against those kind of attacks in VI, or is it more a continous roll of the dice?
 
Well, in civ IV the AI isn't much of a threat in the very early game either. I think we've all done our fair share of worker stealing without worrying too much about any potential early retaliations. ;)

The difference is that in IV the AI doesn't declare randomly like that without preparing for war first. In VI joint war is a trade option. I think you can't ask someone to go to war or join a war you are already fighting. The option is to ask someone to declare together with you. Don't know exactly how it works, but it appears the AI does these kind of trades just as randomly as they do other trades. I've seen similar things in previews as well. 2 AI declare a joint war that clearly none of them had prepared to fight.

Not sure if diplomacy can guard against such attacks early on. Early game appears to be total chaos. In my game, I had met only Spain and Germany when they both declared on me. As I moved towards Spain I met England, and found out that England was at war with Spain as well. We fought Spain together and both made peace around the same time. During all this England contacted me to say they like me because we share the same continent (that's her main agenda, she's supposed to like people on the same continent) and another time to say that she liked me because our science was good (apparently her hidden agenda was to like people with strong science) and we signed open borders. Immediately after she made peace with Spain, her army moved towards me and declared when they entered my lands. So.... it appears there's not much you can do about early DoWs.

As for not losing any units, I should mention that I was playing Aztecs, who has a stronger warrior as UU, and I built a lot of them, plus some ranged units for support. My UU was still at a strength disadvantage to the AI, as immortal AI gets bonuses to unit strength directly and they had some more advanced units. But had I been fighting with regular warriors it might not have been quite as easy.
 
That sounds like a game of multiplayer against very aggressive but somewhat stupid players.
 
OK.... so whats the lowdown/first impressions from our CIV IV "loyalists"?

Is it an improvement over V so far (with some leeway given for the un-patched vanilla factor)?
 
The most important thing a Civ4 player needs to do when jumping to Civ6 is to disable/remap the quick load key. It is not quick, and you don't want to accidentally trigger it every time you want to look at the technology tree!

It reminds me I'm also spoiled by the sevopedia. I was particularly bemused by my interaction that went more or less like

  • Hrm. let's read up on the faith game.
  • Search civpedia for faith
  • Basically only entry is "earning faith"
  • Text is very short, and advises you to consult the civpedia regarding faith

Early game building/growth still feels like swimming through molasses. I can't yet say if that feels good or bad.
 
I've perused a few thread here and elsewhere regarding impressions of folks that have the game now. It appears that most folks at least like the game, but I am hearing quite a few negative things and, well, nitpicks too, if you will. Certainly enough to make me feel good about not having pre-ordered the game, and some of them major enough that I don't see me even sniffing VI until at least the first expansion.

I've seen no professional reviews of the game, but as My pointed out, I don't trust those one bit. I've only bought games based on user reviews for some years now. So far, I'd say the user reviews for VI are not overwhelmingly positive.

While certainly some new features in VI, I've seen several comments around that the game is too much like V.

I will say though. I hear that barb aggression is pretty severe in this game, even on lower difficulties. I think that may be a bit interesting as it will likely change strategies rather significantly from game to game. That is, starts will probably not be as cookie cutter as they were in V.
 
I picked this youtube video cos he tried deity
(probably means he knows stuff ;) ).

I must say while Civ 2-4 did always capture me from the first minute with map design, this looks just so hmm.. dull? for 2016.

Atmo is hugely important for me in games, and i just wonder do i expect too much or does this more look like a board game? Where's the world feeling?

AI diplo seems unrealistic, comic style.

Anyways, video quality is great and the guy playing also seems cool.
Game does not wake any interest in me at all thou.
 
Speaking of My ....;)

Does not ...um...pique my interest right now either

Graphics look a little washed out to me in recent vids I've seen, which is odd as they seemed better in the early stuff. I'm wondering if maybe it's either settings or just the quality translation in the videos themselves.

I"m going to check out that playthru though to see how he does against the barbs
 
Playing some more... the Civ 6 interface forgot a huge number of quality of life improvements from Civ 4 (I don't recall if Civ 5 had these problems -- probably it did too).

E.g. I'm trying to remember where I was sending my settler? I don't think there is an analog of the military advisor, so I'm stuck visually scanning for the settler flag. Ah, I found it... now where is it going? I click on it, and that just erases its path. :(

Also, I currently think a significant part of why the game feels slow is not that the gameplay is slow, but the interface is slow. Civ 4's interface is very crisp and clean.
 
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