Farmboy, I feel you

I must have whiffed on that. But, as I have read and processed this attempt to exonerate racist family before, allow me to retort.

So, if Trump was really about economic anxiety and nothing else, Trump would have an awful lot of people of color on his side. After all, every wave of economic disenfranchisment over the last ever has disproportionately affected people of color.

But, er, people of color are poised to vote against Trump in historic margins. So it's quite obviously not economic anxiety. Because the real anxious people, who have been systematically disadvantaged? Aren't willing to toss our whole multicultural democratic tradition aside because nobody is meeting their needs. It takes the position of unique privilege occupied by small town white people to think that they alone deserve government intervention to preserve their way of life. I can't tell you how much we need these people to just die so we can have a decent society.

This is laughable. If you think this is an attempt to 'exonerate racist family' you haven't the slightest idea where I'm coming from. I'm a coastal elite who comes from a family of coastal elites, and I simply don't have those racist family members everyone talks about. I'm also - as I explained in the posts you seemingly ignored - not trying to exonerate anyone. I think voting for Trump automatically aligns you with Nazi filth regardless of your personal motives for doing so.

But it's kind of amusing that you just completely neglect the factors that lead people to vote for Trump - you react exactly the way the stereotype of the urban liberal in the OP article does. You act like everyone in rural America is just some entitled ******* (kind of like a miniature version of The Donald or something) when the truth is that a lot of these people are hurting. They. Are. <snip>. Hurting. No one who knows a dozen chronically unemployed heroin junkies wants to hear your <snip> nonsense about how privileged they are. Some of these people are chronically unemployed heroin junkies themselves.

You have no <snip> idea what it's like to live in a small town where every third person is an opiate addict and there are four times as many people as job opportunities because what you euphemistically refer to as 'global economic forces' (code for the unlimited greed of the capitalists) has resulted in the foreclosure of job opportunities because it's no longer profitable to employ people. And your lack of even a cursory attempt to empathize with this is disturbing.

Honestly, seeing this response has, I think, made me empathize with Trump voters even more than the article did. There is absolutely no reason why we can't give everyone in this country- including people who live in rural areas - the opportunity to have a stake in society.

I know full well that people of color have had a <snip>ier deal, on average, than white people pretty much across the board. I know that. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the 'lived experience' (nice PC term there) of white Americans living in these hollowed-out communities, and frankly your bringing it up in this context is little different from reactionary morons who talk about how bad women have it in Saudi Arabia when feminists say maybe we need to treat women better in the USA.

Moderator Action: Language. -Bootstoots
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Last edited by a moderator:
when the truth is that a lot of these people are hurting. They. Are. <snip>. Hurting. No one who knows a dozen chronically unemployed heroin junkies wants to hear your <snip> nonsense about how privileged they are. Some of these people are chronically unemployed heroin junkies themselves.

You have no <snip> idea what it's like to live in a small town where every third person is an opiate addict and there are four times as many people as job opportunities because what you euphemistically refer to as 'global economic forces' (code for the unlimited greed of the capitalists) has resulted in the foreclosure of job opportunities because it's no longer profitable to employ people. And your lack of even a cursory attempt to empathize with this is disturbing.

Those jobs are gone forever and they are not coming back. We are sorry Rual America but what you are asking for is impossible, even as the US heavily subsidises it industry too keep it alive its not possible to return back to the post war boom. Even if you remove all workers, rights minimal wages and ALL regulations, how are you going to compete against workers being paid 16c a hr? How ?

The Heroin epedemic we had a long thread assigning blame for the pain killers industry claiming these new opiates were not addictive and making them widely and cheaply avaliable to the public. This was a National failure and everyone knows that the US medical industry needs reforms.

What I dont get is why Republicans keep electing people whom are enacting the most damaging economic policies at state level, and then seem to be bewildered they are being slaughtered.?
I dont get why cultural and immigration issues are being played out time and time again every election like important wedge issues when there are real problems, and yet Republicans seem all to ready to vote against their own interest.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I wish everyone who thinks Trump is necessary shock therapy, or has a silver lining, would talk to the thousands of Latino and black children who are scared ******** at his presidency, and have the guts to tell them it's all for the best.

Much like the article. It is good, and necessary, that we sympathize with the rural poor, with those who are left behind by the neoliberal order. The fact is, politics has focused almost entirely on the "middle class" and never on the working class. But I do wish these thoughtful elicitations of what poor whites want were written about what BLM wants, or poor Latinos and black Americans, or Chicago's southside, or Detroit, but they never are, because they are not white, and will be ignored. That isn't meant to demean the care we issue toward poor whites, I just wish the care was equitable across racial demographics.
There are millions of articles and walls of text on Facebook and other sites (like CFC) that are only about what BLM want and what Latinos and other minorities want (and as a Latino who lived for many years in the USA, I can say they don't speak for me in the slightest, but that's a different story), while accusing Trump supporters of being Klansmen. I think that's an important point of the article.

I also think they nailed it when it comes to the "racism" of many rural and suburban white Americans. It's not "classical racism" of hating people for being of a different color. They have nothing against their black or Latino (or Indian, or Chinese, etc) neighbors, friends, co-workers. They probably have some of them in their extended families and they love them, and don't mind if their kids marry them. What they view with a mixture of fear and loathing are the "ethnic enclaves" in some major American cities, with their culture(s) that they perceive as alien and anti-American, their violence, their mass unemployment and total dependence on welfare, etc. Granted, the way they look at those "enclaves" is not really enlightened - it's not like the people who live there chose to be born in such a situation - but it's a different thing altogether from "hating colored people". They feel despised by these people, and they despise them in turn. American "progressives" never make this distinction, because for them racism is a binary quality which those rural and suburban Americans have - therefore they are evil, and part of the problem, and should be insulted and and shouted down and excluded from any political debate (and they need to die for America to advance, as was written in this very thread). After all, we shouldn't debate with evil racists, now should we??
 
The institutions of the USA were designed to uphold tyranny and despotism (slavery, racial apartheid) and have already succumbed to civil war once.

I also don't see how what I said about the Democrats can be described as optimism. It is realism. By contrast the suggestion that Trump's presidency might yield any 'silver linings' is a ridiculous - and dangerous - fantasy.
Specific parts of tyranny and despotism -- parts which have been rooted out to such an extent it is hard to see a scenario where they can come back. And I'd say that the institutions of the federal government is quite another beast today than it was in 1860. Talks about a new civil war are interesting, but extremely unrealistic.

I don't see how the 'silver lining' of Trump's presidency is so fantastical? IF he gets elected, everyone who isn't Trump will have to rethink and reevaluate a great many things. I'm sure something good will come of that, much faster than if the regular politics can run their course. There are dangers involved however, I won't deny that. I think you will get through it without any serious damage however.

And lastly: I've grown to cynical of the Democrats and their politics, but if you're right, then I'm very happy about it.
 
How far do the categories "poor rural white" and "Trump voter" actually overlap? Nobody's suggesting it's 1:1, of course, there are still plenty of blue-collar union diehards and Country Club racists. But poor rural whites are consistently presented as a large and growing constituency for Trump, so how far has that actually been demonstrated to b the case?

In the UK, the rise of UKIP is often discussed in terms of white working class resentment, but UKIP members and voters bot remain on the whole wealthier and more South-Easterly than the electorate as a whole, it's simply that the right-wing middle class don't paint their face as an English flag and go around provincial town centers shouting about Muslamic ray guns. It seems quite possible that something similar is at work here.

So, what I have to wonder is, is the big shift here that poor rural whites are voting Republican, or simply that Republican-voting poor rural whites have found a candidate they can get excited about?
 
How far do the categories "poor rural white" and "Trump voter" actually overlap? Nobody's suggesting it's 1:1, of course, there are still plenty of blue-collar union diehards and Country Club racists. But poor rural whites are consistently presented as a large and growing constituency for Trump, so how far has that actually been demonstrated to b the case?

In the UK, the rise of UKIP is often discussed in terms of white working class resentment, but UKIP members and voters bot remain on the whole wealthier and more South-Easterly than the electorate as a whole, it's simply that the right-wing middle class don't paint their face as an English flag and go around provincial town centers shouting about Muslamic ray guns. It seems quite possible that something similar is at work here.

So, what I have to wonder is, is the big shift here that poor rural whites are voting Republican, or simply that Republican-voting poor rural whites have found a candidate they can get excited about?

Speaking of muslamic rake, is that (unfortunate) person in the infamous video now some sort of celebrity?
 
There are millions of articles and walls of text on Facebook and other sites (like CFC) that are only about what BLM want and what Latinos and other minorities want (and as a Latino who lived for many years in the USA, I can say they don't speak for me in the slightest, but that's a different story), while accusing Trump supporters of being Klansmen. I think that's an important point of the article.

I also think they nailed it when it comes to the "racism" of many rural and suburban white Americans. It's not "classical racism" of hating people for being of a different color. They have nothing against their black or Latino (or Indian, or Chinese, etc) neighbors, friends, co-workers. They probably have some of them in their extended families and they love them, and don't mind if their kids marry them. What they view with a mixture of fear and loathing are the "ethnic enclaves" in some major American cities, with their culture(s) that they perceive as alien and anti-American, their violence, their mass unemployment and total dependence on welfare, etc. Granted, the way they look at those "enclaves" is not really enlightened - it's not like the people who live there chose to be born in such a situation - but it's a different thing altogether from "hating colored people". They feel despised by these people, and they despise them in turn. American "progressives" never make this distinction, because for them racism is a binary quality which those rural and suburban Americans have - therefore they are evil, and part of the problem, and should be insulted and and shouted down and excluded from any political debate (and they need to die for America to advance, as was written in this very thread). After all, we shouldn't debate with evil racists, now should we??


Rural whites caused the creation of those urban enclaves of non-white poverty. They never own up to the fact that those people are welfare dependent because they are not permitted to be not welfare dependent.
 
How far do the categories "poor rural white" and "Trump voter" actually overlap? Nobody's suggesting it's 1:1, of course, there are still plenty of blue-collar union diehards and Country Club racists. But poor rural whites are consistently presented as a large and growing constituency for Trump, so how far has that actually been demonstrated to b the case?

In the UK, the rise of UKIP is often discussed in terms of white working class resentment, but UKIP members and voters bot remain on the whole wealthier and more South-Easterly than the electorate as a whole, it's simply that the right-wing middle class don't paint their face as an English flag and go around provincial town centers shouting about Muslamic ray guns. It seems quite possible that something similar is at work here.

So, what I have to wonder is, is the big shift here that poor rural whites are voting Republican, or simply that Republican-voting poor rural whites have found a candidate they can get excited about?


The more rural an area in the US is, the more it votes conservative. The more urban, the more liberal. There's a number of factors involved. One of which is self selection of living locations. When possible, people move to where they feel more that they 'fit'. So you have at least some political migration and resultant politically closer to homogeneous locations.

That said, if Republicans were only getting the rural vote, it would be a total blowout in the vote count. This is a small, and shrinking, total of the voters. Republicans also do much better among white men in all locations than Democrats do. And much more poorly among the non-white and women of all races than Democrats do. To the point where Republicans now in the presidential contest can't even really count on 10% of the black vote, and it's been closer to 5% in recent elections. And while GW Bush did pretty well among Hispanics and Asians, that's in decline now as well.

So the thing is that the white male blue collar union worker is not a vote Democrats can count on. Because even though it looks like it should be a Democratic vote, it's not falling out that way. Which means that a group of people are voting against their economic interest, and so must think that they are voting for their interests in other respects. Trump is getting most of the rural vote, but also getting a lot of, probably the majority of, the white male vote everywhere.
 
Rural whites caused the creation of those urban enclaves of non-white poverty. They never own up to the fact that those people are welfare dependent because they are not permitted to be not welfare dependent.
Rural whites are individuals who can only be held accountable for what they did as individuals. Virtually (literally?) every rural white in the US was born after the ghettoization of major American cities.
 
Rural whites are individuals who can only be held accountable for what they did as individuals. Virtually (literally?) every rural white in the US was born after the ghettoization of major American cities.


And yet you have no problem blaming urban blacks for the things that were done to them.
 
American "progressives" never make this distinction, because for them racism is a binary quality which those rural and suburban Americans have - therefore they are evil, and part of the problem, and should be insulted and and shouted down and excluded from any political debate (and they need to die for America to advance, as was written in this very thread). After all, we shouldn't debate with evil racists, now should we??

The irony is that your definition of racism is considerably less nuanced than the way most progressives think about racism. People who actively uphold racism by voting for Donald Trump are certainly doing evil, though I don't believe they are evil.

Cutlass said:
Rural whites caused the creation of those urban enclaves of non-white poverty. They never own up to the fact that those people are welfare dependent because they are not permitted to be not welfare dependent.

How did rural whites cause this? In my understanding the most important factor was 'white flight' of urban whites into the suburbs.
 
And yet you have no problem blaming urban blacks for the things that were done to them.
That's a reading comprehension failure if there ever was one. What I actually said, and you quoted, was:

" the way they look at those "enclaves" is not really enlightened - it's not like the people who live there chose to be born in such a situation"

How is this blaming urban blacks for things that were done to them? Argue against what I wrote, not against your scarecrows.

The irony is that your definition of racism is considerably less nuanced than the way most progressives think about racism. People who actively uphold racism by voting for Donald Trump are certainly doing evil, though I don't believe they are evil.
I don't see any nuance on the binary definition of racism that I encounter again and again in so-called progressives. It's the opposite of nuanced.
 
I don't see any nuance on the binary definition of racism that I encounter again and again in so-called progressives. It's the opposite of nuanced.

How nuanced is your definition, which appears to be something like 'an individual consciously hating black people'? Most progressives I know see racism functioning as a social system rather than an individual trait, and one moreover which we all do things to uphold (the trick being to recognize when this is happening and try to avoid it). This 'binary definition' crap is just a strawman of yours.
 
I agree with all this, but on a certain level it's difficult for me to have sympathy for people who constantly rail against socialism and communism, and yet the things they complain about, and evidently are motivating them to vote for Trump, are practically the textbook social consequences of capitalism.

It's one of the great ironies of this whole situation that many of the victims of neoliberal policies have been induced to vote for the more extreme of the two neoliberal parties, over and over again. And yet, while Trump will make their situation worse in many respects, he does break with neoliberal (and neoconservative) orthodoxy in enough places that it really drew people to him. Trade and immigration are the issues he's most consistent on, and here he is very much the opposite of a neoliberal. The neoconservative orthodoxy he breaks is that he's a strong opponent of building democracies in other countries and openly admires Putin. He's made a bunch of militaristic statements and advocates torture and resource plundering in the event of war, so he's hardly a dove. But he's definitely not a neoconservative regime changer either.

He does represent a true break in many of the positions the GOP holds (held?) dear, while at the same time giving enough to the rich through tax cuts that he can buy the acquiescence of people like Paul Ryan. He'll make most of his voters worse off, of course, but he's definitely no Ryan or Rubio or Bush.

(edit: forgot to finish this part of post; second paragraph and second half of first paragraph added)

And this says it all (again). Progressives will have to overbear that opposition. The people writing those pieces assume that history can, must, only go one way, their way. That progressives (whatever that may be) will win. Nowhere, in all those pieces pretending to dissect the "problem" of Trump supporters, is to be found an idea of backing off and conceding to them on any issue.

The irreducibility of all those Trump supporters stems from one root cause: they have been told that they must bend. That they are on the wrong side of history. But they don't want to. TINA rears its ugly head and tramples all over those who dare disagree. It must be so and everyone who opposes "progress" is wrong, a "problem" to be solved. This is what has pissed off half of the US (and many other countries around the world) so tremendously that they risk very serious internal conflict if they keep going down that path. There is no one group of "Trump supporters", there are many. United by one thing: opposition to TINA.

Inno, I love you. I don't always agree with you, but this board would be a much worse place without your participation. :love:

I actually now support reducing new immigration substantially, because this one issue has been causing the most anger among the native populace. A functional democracy has to have a bit of give-and-take; if you attempt to steamroll the opinions of 45% of the population, the level of internal tension increases dramatically. At this point we are actually seriously talking about the risk of substantial post-election violence in the USA, of all places, and even if we avoid that, it's hard to see how another 10 years goes by without some sort of rural insurgency without substantial concessions. My turning point on this was Merkel's boneheaded decision to accept refugees without limit in 2015. Seeing how much this destabilized all the countries on the path between Turkey and Germany, along with Germany and Sweden themselves, was enough for me to realize there were indeed limits to my usual pro-immigration stances.

I'd couple this with substantial rural investment programs, perhaps a large jobs program, and an increased welfare state in general, because I'm a social democrat at core. But

How far do the categories "poor rural white" and "Trump voter" actually overlap? Nobody's suggesting it's 1:1, of course, there are still plenty of blue-collar union diehards and Country Club racists. But poor rural whites are consistently presented as a large and growing constituency for Trump, so how far has that actually been demonstrated to be the case?

In the UK, the rise of UKIP is often discussed in terms of white working class resentment, but UKIP members and voters bot remain on the whole wealthier and more South-Easterly than the electorate as a whole, it's simply that the right-wing middle class don't paint their face as an English flag and go around provincial town centers shouting about Muslamic ray guns. It seems quite possible that something similar is at work here.

So, what I have to wonder is, is the big shift here that poor rural whites are voting Republican, or simply that Republican-voting poor rural whites have found a candidate they can get excited about?
Poor rural whites, when they vote, have mostly been voting Republican for a few election cycles now. Only a few cycles, though - a large proportion voted for Clinton in 1992 and/or 1996. The shift has actually continued from 2000; the Democrats have now lost the majorities they held through then in Southern state legislatures. If you take a look at election maps at the county level (this is my favorite site for this; note that colors are reversed so Dems=red and Reps=blue), you'll see that the shift away from the Democrats has continued on a local level throughout most American rural areas, most dramatically in Appalachia. One of the interesting things that seems to be going on right now is that one of the last rural Democrat bastions (eastern Iowa, NW Illinois, SW Wisconsin, SE Minnesota) is swinging Republican. This area was solidly pro-Obama; Obama won the white vote in Iowa in 2012 while losing it in every other Midwestern state including Illinois (Minnesota was within the exit poll margin of error).

I can tell you I'm very excited not just for the results of this election, but to see the county maps. Elections give you a lot of data about the political microgeography of the country, and this election is going to be more informative than most because of its unusual nature.

The median Trump voter will likely be a middle-class suburbanite with some college but no 4-year degree. A lot of American suburbanites are as conservative as their rural peers, especially small business owners and the like, and people in the suburbs obviously outnumber the rural areas and small towns. One of the more important things to get, that I've never really seen addressed, is that middle-class conservative white people tend to have a lot of relatives, friends, and acquaintances who are lower-class and are struggling. Poor white heroin addicts rarely vote, but they feed into the narrative of social decay that Trump has made the cornerstone of his campaign, and you can bet that their better-off relatives are really angry about what is happening. It also helps to drive home to middle-class people that they are only a job loss and a prolonged period of unemployment from failing the same way, which builds a sense of precariousness that also feeds the Trump narrative. The net effect is that the median Trump voter will be personally doing okay, and this fact will be used (is already being used) as a further tool to denigrate Trump voters as deplorables.
 
Last edited:
How nuanced is your definition, which appears to be something like 'an individual consciously hating black people'? Most progressives I know see racism functioning as a social system rather than an individual trait, and one moreover which we all do things to uphold (the trick being to recognize when this is happening and try to avoid it). This 'binary definition' crap is just a strawman of yours.
First and foremost, my definition of racism, which I believe is the one most people use throughout the world, is not restricted to "black people". That's another bizarre binary trait of American so-called progressives: everyone is either black or white.
Racism is simply treating people differently due to their race / ethnicity. It exists in a continuum, and is not binary at all. At the lowest level it is a mix of mistrust and sometimes even fascination with the different. At the highest level it is really hating the different ones. Which is why on another thread I mentioned how silly it is to put some grandma that occasionally uses offensive words in the same boat as the KKK (which "progressives" often do).
 
I actually now support reducing new immigration substantially, because this one issue has been causing the most anger among the native populace. A functional democracy has to have a bit of give-and-take; if you attempt to steamroll the opinions of 45% of the population, the level of internal tension increases dramatically. At this point we are actually seriously talking about the risk of substantial post-election violence in the USA, of all places, and even if we avoid that, it's hard to see how another 10 years goes by without some sort of rural insurgency without substantial concessions. My turning point on this was Merkel's boneheaded decision to accept refugees without limit in 2015. Seeing how much this destabilized all the countries on the path between Turkey and Germany, along with Germany and Sweden themselves, was enough for me to realize there were indeed limits to my usual pro-immigration stances.
Okay, I'm going to go a bit off-topic here, but that's an example of a thing I often noticed in many immigration discussions and which really makes me scratch my head about. Isn't it absolutely obvious that heterogeneous populations have less stability and more friction than homogeneous ones ? I mean, strictly factually, no moral/ethical judgement attached.
Does it really requires some kind of eye-opening moment to notice the social equivalent of "water is wet" ?
 
First and foremost, my definition of racism, which I believe is the one most people use throughout the world, is not restricted to "black people". That's another bizarre binary trait of American so-called progressives: everyone is either black or white.
Racism is simply treating people differently due to their race / ethnicity. It exists in a continuum, and is not binary at all. At the lowest level it is a mix of mistrust and sometimes even fascination with the different. At the highest level it is really hating the different ones. Which is why on another thread I mentioned how silly it is to put some grandma that occasionally uses offensive words in the same boat as the KKK (which "progressives" often do).

Yet an individual is either on the continuum or not, and in this conception it makes no sense at all to talk about racist systems (which is the level where grandma and the klansman really are on the same level).
 
Top Bottom