Babylon an entire age ahead of the rest of the world.
- Thread starter Mogmau
- Start date
zeta
Mod Addict
Any chance to post your saves and list all the mods you're using? You also should mention a bit more than that, like difficulty you're playing on and such.
Mad Madigan
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2016
- Messages
- 403
I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, but I ran into a similar scenario in my last game. I was playing as Korea in a King/Epic game on a large Continents Plus map and decided to focus on winning via science for once. I was coasting ahead of all other civs I encountered in researched technology as I explored the map, but then I ran into Babylon in the late Classical Age and they were EIGHT technologies ahead of me. They had already reached the Medieval Age and by the time I researched my first Medieval tech they were one tech away from Renaissance. So here I was thinking I was doing great in the tech game by being 3-4 techs ahead of all other civs, and it turns out that Babylon was just steamrolling through the tech tree. Pretty dang impressive considering how much some civs were floundering research (some didn't even have Writing yet).
I know Babylon gets Great Scientists 50% faster and has that extra Scientist slot in the Walls of Babylon, but is that advantage really enough to jump that far ahead in technology? Interestingly their civics were actually worse than my own (they had 8 policies to my 9). We had both gone straight Tradition > Statecraft. Again, I know Babylon is a science-based civ, but is that much of a technology lead really that common for them? Again, they were 8 techs ahead of me, and I was 3 techs ahead of the 3rd place science civ at that point.
Again, not saying this is broken. I'm just curious if Babylon is usually this good at the science victory. 2 Eras ahead of the average Civ is a pretty demanding lead.
I know Babylon gets Great Scientists 50% faster and has that extra Scientist slot in the Walls of Babylon, but is that advantage really enough to jump that far ahead in technology? Interestingly their civics were actually worse than my own (they had 8 policies to my 9). We had both gone straight Tradition > Statecraft. Again, I know Babylon is a science-based civ, but is that much of a technology lead really that common for them? Again, they were 8 techs ahead of me, and I was 3 techs ahead of the 3rd place science civ at that point.
Again, not saying this is broken. I'm just curious if Babylon is usually this good at the science victory. 2 Eras ahead of the average Civ is a pretty demanding lead.
thunderbird_14
Prince
Maybe they've bulbed their great scientists?
I play as Bablyon and Korea alot. Remember that Babylon gets a free Great Scientist, which it will build an academy with, which makes an enormous difference in the early game tech values. However, that advantage will wane as other science sources begin to generate more. My experience with Bablyon is that you can end up farther along the tech tree than you need to be during ancient/ classical. You will still be building other buildings and not necessarily using anything from a tech for a while after discovering it.
At that point in the game, as Korea your advantages haven't been in effect as long so you will be behind him. It doesn't mean you can't catch him though, the late game techs for a science victory have enormous costs so his current lead doesn't mean that much. Try to grab wonders before he does; research agreements corporations and corporations also boost science. Korea's perks seem stronger than Bablyon's during the mid game, then tends to be a period where I don't feel compelled to build academies or discover with my scientists.
I would encourage you play until the end, as long as Babylon hasn't passed in other aspects it seems very winnable.
At that point in the game, as Korea your advantages haven't been in effect as long so you will be behind him. It doesn't mean you can't catch him though, the late game techs for a science victory have enormous costs so his current lead doesn't mean that much. Try to grab wonders before he does; research agreements corporations and corporations also boost science. Korea's perks seem stronger than Bablyon's during the mid game, then tends to be a period where I don't feel compelled to build academies or discover with my scientists.
I would encourage you play until the end, as long as Babylon hasn't passed in other aspects it seems very winnable.
Mad Madigan
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2016
- Messages
- 403
I'm actually not complaining, per say. And to update on my game against Babylon, yes, I totally stole from him as soon as I got my early spies from Statecraft. Once I got Seowan's up and had built several Academies I was eventually able to catch up, and then surpass Babylon with a well-timed Spy steal. Of course, that put him over the edge and he denounced me, but it doesn't matter because his early tech lead (and unpleasant disposition with his immediate neighbors) meant that he had no Friendly relationships to care about him getting angry for getting his tech stolen. So I ended up catching up from -8 techs to +1 from ~1200 AD to ~1500 AD. Not bad for ol' Sejong! Babylon is neighboring the Aztecs, Russia, and Rome, so I'm sure I can bribe at least one of them to DoW him for me if I have to (that is if those three ever stop chain-DoWing each other).
The AI in this game: So great!
The AI in this game: So great!
We have the best AI. The best. All other AI? SAD.
Yeah, Babby is an early-game science lead, but Sejong (and Assyria, if Assyria assyrias hard enough) catch up by the Medieval period.
G
Ziggurat spamming.
LukaSlovenia29
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2016
- Messages
- 1,500
In my games, I strongly dislike playing against Babylon, as it is for me, all things considered, the best Civ in the VP Civ 5. It has an insane UA, awesome UB and great early UI. That's not to say Babylon can't be beaten, but it has been for me the hardest AI Civ to win against. One saving grace is that Babylon seems to not be settling so many cities as many other civs and often remains at 2-4 cities, which is "manageable" to win against. Very hard, but still doable. But if it gets to 6-7 cities, it really ups the ante.
And I agree, the AI in VP is simply superb, truly beyond words how great it is and it sets a benchmark for AI in all other similar games.
And I agree, the AI in VP is simply superb, truly beyond words how great it is and it sets a benchmark for AI in all other similar games.
Babylon doesn't have a UI, right? Or am I mad?
This is the exact same scenario. I'm playing on prince with no other mods. It's my first proper game but I'm doing okay at third place in the known world...it's just that Babylon's lead is very extreme, they have the money to upgrade their troops and they're building their unlocked wonders with no problem.
I just feel like this lead is probably too much.
Horvath Broncos
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2016
- Messages
- 176
I am playing Babylon right now and around turn 150 I have already 3 academies in my capital so no wonder Babylon is real powerhouse in many games. But I bet AIs will be catching me tech wise. Not that I am leading on techs but I am pretty close to Ethopia on immortal so that is pretty good in this early game.
LukaSlovenia29
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2016
- Messages
- 1,500
Pardon, meant UU.
Well, they just declared war and I've rendered the game lost. They have crossbowmen, Tercio, Heavy Skirmishers, Knights against my lesser Composite Bowmen, Spearmen, Horsemen, and Catapults. Most of my army was killed in a single attack from one of their units.
So yes, 8 techs ahead AND upgrading. It's too much.
So yes, 8 techs ahead AND upgrading. It's too much.
Txurce
Deity
Drop down a level -- VP is really tough. I can definitely attest after many games that Babylon is rarely a late-game challenge: more like 1 in 4.
I really wouldn't like to, if I'm honest. This isn't an issue thats game wide...I'm third place as the huns, with Ethiopia an understandable second place. The others are far below me in many ways and even my out of date army is is quite far ahead of theirs.
The issue is exclusively Babylonia. The tech gap has given them invincible military power and a huge monopoly on wonders. I don't mind that they are ahead, but the extent is insane.
Txurce
Deity
I hear you -- and if you're competitive, even if you don't win, you're in the right level (unless you'd rather dominate). Based on not just my experiecne , but also on the rankings of veteran players on this site, I see Babylon as a strong civ that, like all strong civs, can turn into a runaway with the right conditions. In Babylon's case, it's obviously going to involve a tech lead. Recently I've twice seen Assyria turn into a runaway after starting in an isolated location, yet I view them as middle of the road. In short, I wouldn't dwell on fears of a gross imbalance with a civ that hasn't been altered recently.
