Master of Mana Xtended - Download and Changelog

on levels...

I find that the high priests level condition is a bit too huge !!
they need level 10, which is about 200xp !
I don't have many priests, and getting 4 to 200 xp to get my 4 high priests is a bit too huge a problem.
even farming undead every turns with a GC is only 3-4xp/turn until lvl 8, so you need > 50-70 turns of continuous farming which monopolize a GC in order to get that High Priest.

and it's not like HP are worth that price. (at least the Leaves HP bonus is only support miracles)
I'm not even thinking about Order (or empy?) HP miracle that requires the death of the HP.

I think level 6-7 should be enough.

second remark
you changed blitz (and all similar promotions/equipement -orthus axe - that priest discipline...etc) to give only 1/3 rd xp.
It's too drastic a move IMO.
there are few units that can attack more than 3 times per round. (need more than 3mvt)
and even for the few units that can, it is rarely possible (often there are only 1-2 units, or you don't have enough movement, due to hill/forest/desert, or your unit is damaged so you cannot attack 3 times).

So the "break-even" situation for xp is super rare.
I'd rather have it that xp is reduced BY 1/3 instead of TO 1/3

It would still be a reduction but not be too much of a "price".
at the moment, those promotion feels like they are "neutral" : give a tactical advantage (can situationnaly attack multiple times), but a strategical reduction (much lower xp growth) while all other promotions are only expensive advantages that you pay with xp, (or by defeating orthus)...Etc
 
...the limitation on units supply unduly limiting.
It is limiting and forcing players to choose which units they will recruit. At the same time, this also benefits overall game play by reducing Stacks of Doom (which often causes crashes and errors, especially in later turns).

Other forms of limitation are surely there, such as increasing the production costs (hammer/global yield), giving units maintenance in gold etc but these forms were considered more punishing to the AI (greatly reducing their offensive capability). The decision to use limited unit support which can be increased using buildings is sound in my opinion.

Concerning the bard promotion I find that instead of taking this option away from some disciplines one better make it available to "senior" units with 15+ level. There are very few such units anyway, and one need more culture later in the game.
I think Bard for early class promotion is fine since it does not give any combat benefits. Bard does increase by level, so it is going to be relevant in later game.

I find that the high priests level condition is a bit too huge !!
they need level 10, which is about 200xp !
Priests do have the chance to gain extra xp per turn from Channeling promotions. If you unlock Healer's Circle, you can buy Potion of Clarity which will give instant xp for the priest. Priests can also cast and attack at the same turn (but this strategy costs lots of faith...). Lastly, Altar of Luonnotar is very helpful in getting high level priests.

If the general feeling is High Priests are underwhelming, I am more inclined to increase their usefulness (by providing new, powerful, miracles for High Priests) rather than reducing their minimal level.

second remark
you changed blitz (and all similar promotions/equipement -orthus axe - that priest discipline...etc) to give only 1/3 rd xp.
The thing is, there are units capable of 3 movements right off the bat: Hippus mounted units, Austrin recon units (in future patch), Elohim monks to name a few. Not to mention there are Mobility promotion, Hasted These units/civs will be OP if Blitz gives them full exp.
 
Future change log (updated first post):


  • [AMURITES] Cave of Ancestors gives +2 xp/mana node for arcane units built in the city.
  • [AMURITES] Arcane Lacuna gives +2 xp/mana node for all arcane units.
  • [ARISTARKH] Nexus of Knowledge is unlocked at Writing.
  • [AUSTRIN] Theme: wanderers, indeendents.
  • - [AUSTRIN] Wanderer trait now gives Mobility 1 and Sentry 1 to recon units. It also increases the chance for recon units to get good result when exploring dungeons.
  • - [AUSTRIN] Austrin Settlement: -50% maintenance, +2 trade routes.
  • - [AUSTRIN] Starts with Exploration and Cartography.
  • - [AUSTRIN] Deidra now Trader/Expansive (no longer Adaptive).
  • - [AUSTRIN] Sorah and Ecks now Defender (temporary)/Exotic/Adaptive (lost Emergent).
  • - [AUSTRIN] Austrin cities has 6 population cap, capital has 8 population cap.
  • [CALABIM] Changed Burning Blood to give Enraged after combat (20% chance) instead of each turn.
  • [DURAL] Theme: scholars, agnostics, builder.
  • - [DURAL] Added Archer to Dural.
  • - [DURAL] City screen is no longer pink.
  • - [DURAL] Dural gains Agnostic civ trait.
  • - [DURAL] Dural automatically gets all religions' first tier tech upon obtaining Priest Chapter.
  • - [DURAL] Lost Museum. College is renamed as Learning Hall and now Pagan Temple UB for Dural.
  • - [DURAL] College of Theology is unlocked at Priest Chapter.
  • - [DURAL] Various religious schools are unlocked at Priesthood, except Esus' unlocked at Cult of Esus. Their benefits are reduced.
  • - [DURAL] Students require their respective school. All students have 4 str.
  • - [DURAL] Professor requires College of Theology and Dogma, has Assimilate Mind (science after combat), +2 Mind mana affinity.
  • - [DURAL] Courthouse UB gives -20% maintenance and +2 science.
  • [ELOHIM] Corlindale's Peace is non-repeatable if Corlindale is saved by Angelic Charm (or any kind of immortality).
  • [ELOHIM] After casting Peace and survive, Corlindale will automatically pacify any hostile units in 1-tile radius.
  • [ELOHIM] Meelais now Scientific/Devout instead of Scientific/Emergent, to focus on Empyrean's scientific side.
  • [ELOHIM] Oracle of Sirona gives +10% GPP instead of +25%
  • [GRIGORI] Cassiel is now Philosophical/Organised (temporary)/Adaptive (instead Philosophical/Industrious (temporary)/Adaptive).
  • [ILLIANS] Auric is now Aggressive, instead of Defender.
  • [JOTNAR] Theme: giants, slow growth but physically more powerful.
  • - [JOTNAR] Giantkin trait makes citizen consume extra +2 food/population (total 5 food/population).
  • - [JOTNAR] Staedding makes cities have 3 radius, like Kuriotates' sprawling.
  • - [JOTNAR] Staedding gives +1 hammer per city cultural level.
  • - [JOTNAR] Great Wall requires 200 hammer and 500 stones.
  • - [JOTNAR] House of the Ancestors requires 100 hammer and 200 lumber.
  • - [JOTNAR] Jotnar's units are upgradeable and most do not gain increase strength from tech to reflect their nature (growing older).
  • - [JOTNAR] Mother Enningas's trait is Philosophical/Agricultural (instead of Philosophical/Financial).
  • [LUCHUIRP] Mountain Ranger and Dwarven Shadow can pass through mountains.
  • [KHAZAD] Myconid, Mountain Ranger and Dwarven Shadow can pass through mountains.
  • [KHAZAD] Myconid Caverns gives +2 food and +1 food/+1 commerce for Mushroom Gardens. No longer gives Toad.
  • [MALAKIM] Varn trait is now Financial (temporary)/Faithful/Adaptive (instead Philosophical (temporary)/Faithful/Adaptive).
  • [MALAKIM] Religious Fervor creates priests and gives +2 xp/city with state religion to them.
  • [MAZATL] City screen is no longer pink.
  • [SCIONS] Removed Archer from Scions.
  • [SHEAIM] Four horsemen of Apocalypse are spawned as Devil (instead of Barbarians) and at peace with Sheaim (and Infernals).
  • [SHEAIM] Sheaim can cast ritual to summon Devils (independent barbarian units at peace with them) at Infernal Pact.
  • [SHEAIM] Fixed Queensguard sound bug.
  • [SHEAIM] Queensguard lost Magic Resistance. Sheaim has enough early game power without it now (see Summoning Trait).
  • [SHEAIM] Favourite improvement is Plantation and gets +0.50 mana from Plantations.
  • [SHEAIM] Averax now Slavemaster/Sacred Warrior and focus on disciple units.
  • [SHEAIM] Gosea now Loremaster/Mastery of Fire Magic to give her more focus on arcane units/spell research.
  • [SHEAIM] Malchavic now Scientific/Magic Resistance for stronger early game (esp. against skeletons).
  • [BUILDING] Construction Yard gives +1 Engineer slot (instead of +2), cost 100 stone (instead of 300 stone).
  • [BUILDING] Public School is unlocked at Writing, requires Salon. It gives +1 science/population, +1 Sage slot.
  • [BUILDING] Archive is unlocked at Philosophy, requires Salon. It gives +50% science, +1 Sage slot.
  • [BUILDING] University is unlocked at Philosophy, requires Public School. It gives +5 science/city cultural level, +3 Sage slots.
  • [CIVIC] Liberty allows unlimited specialists of all kind (including Priests) and no maintenance penalty.
  • [GAME] Add Hero promotion and various hostile auras to Appocalypse horsemen.
  • [GAME] Great Prophet's Divine Intervention gives 1000 Faith (instead of 1500); the same level with Great Bard's Tale of Legend.
  • [GAME] Great Prophet's Pilgrimage gives 2000 Faith (instead of 2500).
  • [GAME] Reduce yield from lair exploration to 1/3 of previous value.
  • [GAME] Great Merchant's discover farm resource can be used in Grass and Fertile Grass.
  • [GAME] Reduces Hell Terrain spread rate to 10% of AC per tile.
  • [GAME] Reduces early techs a little bit.
    • Military tier 2 techs from 1000 -> 800.
    • Military tier 3 techs from 2500 -> 2000.
    • Ancient Chants from 600 -> 400.
    • Arcane Knowledge from 1000 -> 600.
  • [GEAR] Poisons (the gear) gets +2 Razorweed affinity; more reason to venture to the blasted hell terrains!
  • [GEAR] Poisons tech unlocks Unstable Brew (500 herbs); a fancy way to call a bomb, I know.
  • [GEAR] Tower Shield requires Defense discipline.
  • [GUILD] Magi's Circle VII Astral Mastery gives 100 xp to summon but no longer give discounts on summons and GEs.
  • [IMPROVEMENT] Pasture can be built in Plains and Field of Perdition tiles.
  • [IMPROVEMENT] Plantations can be built in Grass and Broken Land tiles.
  • [MAGIC] Damage and damage limit from Tier 1 and Tier 2 spells are reduced.
  • [MAGIC] Each school has secondary effect on their damage spells to compensate for the reduced damage.
  • [MAGIC] Reduced tech cost for Sorcery, making it faster to build Mage (and access Tier 2 spells).
  • [MAGIC] Fixed AIWeight for various dispellable promotions.
  • [MAGIC] Increased AIWeight for spells, making AI civs more inclined to use spells.
  • [MAGIC] Life's Judgement now has tripled chance for massive damage.
  • [MAGIC] Mind school's Aura of Trust, Majesty and Tyranny give +4 diplomacy bonus to Good/Neutral/Evil leaders (it was +3).
  • [MAGIC] Chaos magic's Twisted Terrain mana cost is reduced to 75.
  • [MAGIC] Chaos magic gets Frenzy hostile GE. Enemy units gain Fury (-2 first strike, -2 defensive strike, 5% chance to get Enraged from combat).
  • [MAGIC] Chaos magic's Vyrkul can cast Wonder (just for flavour).
  • [MAGIC] Death magic's Skeleton Warrior chance to create skeleton after combat is reduced to 20%.
  • [PROMOTION] Fixed Bard promotion (it gave double culture than it should).
  • [PROMOTION] Fixed Gladiator promotion (it gave no culture at all).
  • [PROMOTION] Added Dwarf Slaying, Frostling Slaying, Goblin Slaying, Lizardman Slaying to Vengeance discipline.
  • [PROMOTION] Blood Mage class no longer requires Blood Ritual spell research.
  • [RELIGION] Adjust damage and damage limit of miracles to mirror arcane spells.
  • [RELIGION] Temple of the Order gives -10% maintenance and +10 xp for Disciple units.
  • [RELIGION] Light of Lugus now works in any city, not only other civ's capital.
  • [RELIGION] Revelation deals random damage Illusion in 3-tile radius. Cost 300 Faith, requires Channelling 2.
  • [RELIGION] Crown of Brilliance will damage units around the caster each turn, as long as the promotion is there.
  • [RELIGION] FOL's Call to the Herd can be used in Plains and Sordid Fields.
  • [RELIGION] FOL's Song of Autumn gives +50% length Golden Age.
  • [RELIGION] AV's Inferno spell is moved to Infernal Possession (it targets *all* enemy units on a tile, so it's very powerful).
  • [RELIGION] AV's Rain of Fire terraform is moved to Infernal Pact (halved its effect and cost).
  • [TRAIT] Add Defender, Faithful and Raiders as selectable Adaptive traits.
  • [TRAIT] Create a set of duplicate Traits for Adaptive. This will fix trait boughts erased by Adaptive.
  • [TRAIT] Faithful gets Great Prophet whenever acquires religion-starting tech. The most obvious way is through Ancient Chants.
  • [TRAIT] Imperial requires no yield to build Constructin Yard and Command Post.
  • [TRAIT] Miner requires no yield to build Mining Guild, Shaft Mine and Deep Mine.
  • [TRAIT] Organized requires no yield to build Courthouse, Harbor and Lighthouse.
  • [TRAIT] Summoner reduces summon cost by 25% (it was 33%) and gives summoned unit +30 xp (also affect Sheaim's Planar Gate summons).
 
  • "[SHEAIM] Four horsemen of Apocalypse are spawned as Devil (instead of Barbarians) and at peace with Sheaim (and Infernals)."
Aren't the devils at war with the infernals? Or are the horsemen an exception to this?
 
Aren't the devils at war with the infernals? Or are the horsemen an exception to this?
I made the Devils at peace with both Sheaim and Infernals. Having them at peace with Sheaim but not with Infernals is not making any sense. That they are independent barbarians are enough to reflect some divisions in Hell.
 
Wow !! That's a badass changelog :smoke:

Really a huge step in the right direction on polishing this mod, can't wait to play the next version !
 
I do think making High Priests more powerful is the way to go. They are similar to archmages and the culture cost to get the tech to get HP's are enormous. Faith is much harder to get and store then mana and archmages are absolutely amazing late game which is when we will see HP's. Thus, HP's have a hard time using their spells and feel even harder to get then archmages for nowhere near the effectiveness. HP's can heal and provide passive healing, but so do priests for a fraction of the cost.

I still think yields are too low for stone and wood. Almost every civ needs ways to get lots of lumber and stone for their buildings and so lumbermills and quarries end up dominating most of the improvements built, making any civ without access to many hills and forests very weak. Which in turn makes nature mana OP since it can just make the yields or terraform lands to get forests/hills. Either increase the yields for stone and wood or lower some of the building costs. Civs like Mazatl who cannot build lumbermills have even more problems.
 
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First of all : Thanks for the huge list of changes you propose... most of them being very very good... I'll comment on them in a late post :D

Priests do have the chance to gain extra xp per turn from Channeling promotions. If you unlock Healer's Circle, you can buy Potion of Clarity which will give instant xp for the priest. Priests can also cast and attack at the same turn (but this strategy costs lots of faith...). Lastly, Altar of Luonnotar is very helpful in getting high level priests.

If the general feeling is High Priests are underwhelming, I am more inclined to increase their usefulness (by providing new, powerful, miracles for High Priests) rather than reducing their minimal level.


The thing is, there are units capable of 3 movements right off the bat: Hippus mounted units, Austrin recon units (in future patch), Elohim monks to name a few. Not to mention there are Mobility promotion, Hasted These units/civs will be OP if Blitz gives them full exp.
it seems I wasn't clear enough:
-re High priests
Healer circle is only available to good and neutral : My evil svartalfar need to get the xp the hard way, and svartalfar are not vampires
the channeling "free" xp is very slow : my adept take 50+ turns to get 12 xp, and I didn't notice any gain on priests (maybe 1xp every 5-10 turns ?) 1 xp is not much. In vanilla FFH (and other modmods) 1xp is quite good as the xp needed to level are much less. In MoM, the xp cost are great, and the "free xp" is slow and doesn't compensate for increasing HP level from 6 (in vanillla FFH) to 10, and for pushing lvl 10 to 200 xp or so.

IMO healer circle "clarity" should be for enabling your priests to get xp quicker and give a bonus toward good/neutral civs for their priests (maybe accelerating the way to get HP) ... not a way to penalise evil civs by making good civs get HP easily (only through buying xp) while evil get them very slowly. Healer circle should not be the only way to be sure to get HP.

Pleae note that Altar of the Luonnatar is also NOT available to evil civs.... and that most XP-granting buildings (training yard / warrior thingy...Etc) do not give XP to disciples
Evil civs thus have disciples that start with LOWER xp than available to good civs and CANNOT get the healer circle (unless you were not-evil and converted to AV after unlocking healer circle).

re : Cast and attack : not all priests can cast an attack spell (unless on forests, leaves Priests cannot attack using spell) ; and Faith attacks cost much much more than mana attacks (about 5 times more).

Finally, I think that being obliged to select the Priest chapter guild to get those priests and High priests should be enough a requirement. I shouldn't have to have both the Healer circle AND the Priest chapter to have a reasonnable chance to have HP.

-re Blitz :
My point was the following :
there was one mechanic that was strong (blitz) but expensive and rare (the promotion comes late, and is not available to all discipline), and which "might" be OP in certain conditions... which you rendered underpowered (currently I'm leaving the orthus axe to a crow.... so that my units don't lose xp)

and The MAIN POINT of blitz was not to kill multiples units per turn... (even if that is one interesting aspect), it was the possibility to gain xp multiple time per turn... (so you nerfed one of the main interest of blitz)

most units that can get blitz (or Orthus axe) do not not have 3 mvt, or are often capped at 3: melee, recon, some mounted...etc.
Some of those units can get 3 mvt or more... by chosing not to increase damage ! (boot of mobility instead of an attack boost, mobility 1, which comes late, instead of combat, the dagger recon discipline instead of the trap recon discipline, the avenger? class for priests...etc)
Mounted aslo have 3str : they are less strong than melee, and against animals have no recon-bonus : I removed my Orthus axe from my Nyxin... because it earned less than 1 xp/turn as a mean, even when attacking every time possible, as compared to 2-3xp/turn for the other Nyxins.
Some units can get 4 mvt or more (austrin recon mounted with mobility), or even 6 mobility (Hippus horses with mobility and right class)

However, very few of these units effectively attack 3 times in a row... (unless against very very weak units):
- Most often, there are not 3+ units that you can attack every turn
- often, your 4-6 moves are translated into 2-3 attack rounds max : you might need to move to get to the ennemy ; the ennemy might be on a hills, on desert, on ice, on forest, on jungle : all of those take 2 moves, or even 3 for 1 attack.
- often, unless against much weaker units, even if you COULD attack, you SHOULD NOT attack 3 times in a row: your blitz unit has been damaged against the defender (in city, on hill, on forest, .... or because RNG, or because strong defender).

so, taking into accoun the fact that to break even with other units, one needs to kill 3 times more ennemies than other units.
the "break-even" for XP is very rare.

Thus, to be a slight advantage for XP for the unit, a blitz units SHOULD attack 4 times in a turn.
this means that 1 unit get 4 xp in place of 4 units getting each 3 xp.

and I hope to have been able to demonstrate that if 3 kill in a turn is rare, 4 kills in a turn is even rarer

Most of the times, due to your nerf, the blitz unit gain xp much more slowly than non-blitz unit.

So will the nerf you imposed, blitz is a LOSS for 80% of the units of the game, and it becomes viable for 10% (assassins with 4 moves, or very high leveled units that are never damaged... but with 4 moves(rare) ) and interesting for less than 10% (hippus tier IV units, Mounted units with +affinity promotion and movement discipline/class...etc)

IMO, even before, Blitz was not OP, save for those less than 10% units of the late game.
AND even then it was not really OP : xp gained for too-easy battles was 1xp !!!! while 90%chances battles could give you 2-3xp, and 4-6 with a GC...
so a blitz unit that could attack 3 times in a row would not get much more xp than a unit that takes some slight risks.
(maybe MOM version of giving 3xp for every battle as long as you have more than 30 xp, and as long as you have odds higher than 80%, changed that).


From what I remember of Kael"s teaching, a good design is a design that is OK for the majority, bad for a few cases, and good/OP for another few. I think the previous blitz was like that : bad for a few cases : Khazad melee, ok for most of the people : melee with mobility, recon, horses, assassins (can kill a lot, but get reduce xp due to too easy fights) and good/OP for a few: high level recon with cannibalize in savage land, High level Hippus.

FURTHER: the NERF is not proportionnated with any other modifier of xp gain !
- a GC gives 20% xp boost !
- the "clever" promotion, at level 8, also give 20% boost !!
comparatively, blitz is a 66% decrease !!!!!!

THAT SAID:
I can agree with nerfing a bit the xp gain for blitz : (indeed, you can get much more xp in some cases).
however getting 1/3 is too low: when you kill 1 unit you get 1, instead of 3-4 xp, you get 1 (1.33 rounded down) :
while reducing by half could be considered ok, I still think it is too low (see proportionnated), and even attacking 3 times in a row, would not give a real increase in xp as 3 * 0.5 rounded down is 1 so you'll still get 3 xp instead of 9, or maybe 6 instead of 12 (but 4xp battles are rare).

so i'll propose 2/3rd : it means a reduction of 33% of xp (1.7 times the increase granted by GC or clever) ; it also means that 2 battle a turn gives you 4xp instead of the normal 3 for 1 kill (slight advantage) and in the few case that people can get 3 attacks a turn, you"ll get 6 xp... twice the benefits, for thrice the risk.

I appologize for the wall of text and I hope to have made a convincing demonstration.
 
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Future change log (updated first post):
  • [AMURITES] Cave of Ancestors gives +2 xp/mana node for arcane units built in the city.
  • [AMURITES] Arcane Lacuna gives +2 xp/mana node for all arcane units.
  • [ARISTARKH] Nexus of Knowledge is unlocked at Writing.
  • [AUSTRIN] Theme: wanderers, indeendents.
  • - [AUSTRIN] Wanderer trait now gives Mobility 1 and Sentry 1 to recon units. It also increases the chance for recon units to get good result when exploring dungeons.
  • - [AUSTRIN] Austrin Settlement: -50% maintenance, +2 trade routes.
  • - [AUSTRIN] Starts with Exploration and Cartography.
  • - [AUSTRIN] Deidra now Trader/Expansive (no longer Adaptive).
  • - [AUSTRIN] Sorah and Ecks now Defender (temporary)/Exotic/Adaptive (lost Emergent).
  • - [AUSTRIN] Austrin cities has 6 population cap, capital has 8 population cap.
  • Good ! I still think that the cities will be too small to really be useful with regard to MoM-specific effects: cost of buildings, effects of districts based on city pop, lack of need for happies, so many techs/guild-techs become less interesting, (meaning that the price is the same for half the benefits) : IMO Austrins should get compensation for this small city size, and I think that -50%maintenance is not enough. (maintenance on small cities is already not much)
    [*][CALABIM] Changed Burning Blood to give Enraged after combat (20% chance) instead of each turn.
    [*][DURAL] Theme: scholars, agnostics, builder.
    [*] - [DURAL] Added Archer to Dural.
    [*] - [DURAL] City screen is no longer pink.
    [*] - [DURAL] Dural gains Agnostic civ trait.
    [*] - [DURAL] Dural automatically gets all religions' first tier tech upon obtaining Priest Chapter.
    [*] - [DURAL] Lost Museum. College is renamed as Learning Hall and now Pagan Temple UB for Dural.
    [*] - [DURAL] College of Theology is unlocked at Priest Chapter.
    [*] - [DURAL] Various religious schools are unlocked at Priesthood, except Esus' unlocked at Cult of Esus. Their benefits are reduced.
    [*] - [DURAL] Students require their respective school. All students have 4 str.
    [*] - [DURAL] Professor requires College of Theology and Dogma, has Assimilate Mind (science after combat), +2 Mind mana affinity.
    [*] - [DURAL] Courthouse UB gives -20% maintenance and +2 science.
    Good / what benefit is there to have the students ? if it's only to have 4 different ways to cast "+20culture" I'm not sure if it's really interesting.
for Professor's promotion/effect, I would have used a less evil-sounding name : Field Analysis, or Learning Mind / Assimilating Mind..etc
  • [ELOHIM] Corlindale's Peace is non-repeatable if Corlindale is saved by Angelic Charm (or any kind of immortality).
  • [ELOHIM] After casting Peace and survive, Corlindale will automatically pacify any hostile units in 1-tile radius.
  • [ELOHIM] Meelais now Scientific/Devout instead of Scientific/Emergent, to focus on Empyrean's scientific side.
  • [ELOHIM] Oracle of Sirona gives +10% GPP instead of +25%
  • [GRIGORI] Cassiel is now Philosophical/Organised (temporary)/Adaptive (instead Philosophical/Industrious (temporary)/Adaptive).
  • [ILLIANS] Auric is now Aggressive, instead of Defender.
  • [JOTNAR] Theme: giants, slow growth but physically more powerful.
  • - [JOTNAR] Giantkin trait makes citizen consume extra +2 food/population (total 5 food/population).
  • - [JOTNAR] Staedding makes cities have 3 radius, like Kuriotates' sprawling.
  • - [JOTNAR] Staedding gives +1 hammer per city cultural level.
  • - [JOTNAR] Great Wall requires 200 hammer and 500 stones.
  • - [JOTNAR] House of the Ancestors requires 100 hammer and 200 lumber.
  • - [JOTNAR] Jotnar's units are upgradeable and most do not gain increase strength from tech to reflect their nature (growing older).
  • - [JOTNAR] Mother Enningas's trait is Philosophical/Agricultural (instead of Philosophical/Financial).
  • Nice for Jotnar : two questions:
  • does that mean 5food consumed per pop per turn ? or 5 food per pop for before growing city size ? in case of the Former, I'm really wondering how Jotnar will grow enough in the early game to be worth something in mid game
  • what is the effect of ageing ? (I hope it is someting like +3 str +2FS per ageing promotion.... or maybe more)(because it needs to be balanced with +2/+4 str early-mid game (100-150 turns), +6+12 at 200-300 turns, and +14+30 at 400-500 turns !
    [*][LUCHUIRP] Mountain Ranger and Dwarven Shadow can pass through mountains.
    [*][KHAZAD] Myconid, Mountain Ranger and Dwarven Shadow can pass through mountains.
    [*][KHAZAD] Myconid Caverns gives +2 food and +1 food/+1 commerce for Mushroom Gardens. No longer gives Toad.
    [*][MALAKIM] Varn trait is now Financial (temporary)/Faithful/Adaptive (instead Philosophical (temporary)/Faithful/Adaptive).
    [*][MALAKIM] Religious Fervor creates priests and gives +2 xp/city with state religion to them.
    I hope you didn't take this into account to keep HP level cost so high (bad joke)
    [*][MAZATL] City screen is no longer pink.
    [*][SCIONS] Removed Archer from Scions.
    [*][SHEAIM] Four horsemen of Apocalypse are spawned as Devil (instead of Barbarians) and at peace with Sheaim (and Infernals).
    [*][SHEAIM] Sheaim can cast ritual to summon Devils (independent barbarian units at peace with them) at Infernal Pact.
    [*][SHEAIM] Fixed Queensguard sound bug.
    [*][SHEAIM] Queensguard lost Magic Resistance. Sheaim has enough early game power without it now (see Summoning Trait).
    [*][SHEAIM] Favourite improvement is Plantation and gets +0.50 mana from Plantations.
    [*][SHEAIM] Averax now Slavemaster/Sacred Warrior and focus on disciple units.
    [*][SHEAIM] Gosea now Loremaster/Mastery of Fire Magic to give her more focus on arcane units/spell research.
    [*][SHEAIM] Malchavic now Scientific/Magic Resistance for stronger early game (esp. against skeletons).
    I didn't see healer circle available to evil Sheaim... cannot evil civs have access to evil potions ?
    [*][BUILDING] Construction Yard gives +1 Engineer slot (instead of +2), cost 100 stone (instead of 300 stone).
    [*][BUILDING] Public School is unlocked at Writing, requires Salon. It gives +1 science/population, +1 Sage slot.
    [*][BUILDING] Archive is unlocked at Philosophy, requires Salon. It gives +50% science, +1 Sage slot.
    [*][BUILDING] University is unlocked at Philosophy, requires Public School. It gives +5 science/city cultural level, +3 Sage slots.
    [*][CIVIC] Liberty allows unlimited specialists of all kind (including Priests) and no maintenance penalty.
    [*][GAME] Add Hero promotion and various hostile auras to Appocalypse horsemen.
    all very good points based on previous balance discussions !
    [*][GAME] Great Prophet's Divine Intervention gives 1000 Faith (instead of 1500); the same level with Great Bard's Tale of Legend.

    [*][GAME] Great Prophet's Pilgrimage gives 2000 Faith (instead of 2500).
    I'm a bit at a loss. those GP "miracles" are too small for me. Culture give permanent bonus, while faith give transitory bonus (mostly), 1000 faith is in fact not so much... it's only 2 "greater heal"... or 3 "forest fist" (or whatever the name of the FoL priest spell)
    [*][GAME] Reduce yield from lair exploration to 1/3 of previous value.
    [*][GAME] Great Merchant's discover farm resource can be used in Grass and Fertile Grass.
    [*][GAME] Reduces Hell Terrain spread rate to 10% of AC per tile.
    [*][GAME] Reduces early techs a little bit.
    • Military tier 2 techs from 1000 -> 800.
    • Military tier 3 techs from 2500 -> 2000.
    • Ancient Chants from 600 -> 400.
    • Arcane Knowledge from 1000 -> 600.
    • all very good points based on prevous balance discussions
    [*][GEAR] Poisons (the gear) gets +2 Razorweed affinity; more reason to venture to the blasted hell terrains!
    [*][GEAR] Poisons tech unlocks Unstable Brew (500 herbs); a fancy way to call a bomb, I know.
    [*][GEAR] Tower Shield requires Defense discipline.
    [*][GUILD] Magi's Circle VII Astral Mastery gives 100 xp to summon but no longer give discounts on summons and GEs.
    [*][IMPROVEMENT] Pasture can be built in Plains and Field of Perdition tiles.
    [*][IMPROVEMENT] Plantations can be built in Grass and Broken Land tiles.
    Good ! 100xp is a lot ;)
    [*][MAGIC] Damage and damage limit from Tier 1 and Tier 2 spells are reduced.
    [*][MAGIC] Each school has secondary effect on their damage spells to compensate for the reduced damage.
    [*][MAGIC] Reduced tech cost for Sorcery, making it faster to build Mage (and access Tier 2 spells).
    i'm really interested in playing to see those changes
    [*][MAGIC] Fixed AIWeight for various dispellable promotions.
    [*][MAGIC] Increased AIWeight for spells, making AI civs more inclined to use spells.
    [*][MAGIC] Life's Judgement now has tripled chance for massive damage.
    [*][MAGIC] Mind school's Aura of Trust, Majesty and Tyranny give +4 diplomacy bonus to Good/Neutral/Evil leaders (it was +3).
    [*][MAGIC] Chaos magic's Twisted Terrain mana cost is reduced to 75.
    [*][MAGIC] Chaos magic gets Frenzy hostile GE. Enemy units gain Fury (-2 first strike, -2 defensive strike, 5% chance to get Enraged from combat).
    [*][MAGIC] Chaos magic's Vyrkul can cast Wonder (just for flavour).
    [*][MAGIC] Death magic's Skeleton Warrior chance to create skeleton after combat is reduced to 20%.
    [*][PROMOTION] Fixed Bard promotion (it gave double culture than it should).
    [*][PROMOTION] Fixed Gladiator promotion (it gave no culture at all).
    ok... nice things
    [*][PROMOTION] Added Dwarf Slaying, Frostling Slaying, Goblin Slaying, Lizardman Slaying to Vengeance discipline.
    I have an issue with Vengeance discipline : there are many promotions already, all dispersed. It would be good if we could add some promotions that have broader applications:
  • examples : Elf slaying : +25% vs elf, darkelf, and fairy (aos-si) ; need either elf slaying or dark-elf slaying (is an evolution of those)
  • Barbarian slaying : evolution of goblin slayin/frostling/orc/lizardman slaying : +25% against any of those
  • Compact enforcer: +20%against Angels, Demons, Avatar (need any of Angel slaying I, Demon slaying I)
  • Monster-Hunter : +20% against werewolves, vampires, undead (need undead slaying I)
  • Deconstructor : +20% against Golems, constructs, ignore city walls.
  • Goliath bane: +20% against Giants, cyclops, beast units
  • Hero-killer: +20% against units with Hero promotion, target units with hero promotion
  • Immortal killer : target units with immortal promotion/phoenix blood,/immortal +30%against units with phoenix blood/immortal promotion
  • ??: +10% against living units
  • ??: +10% against non-living units
  • ??: +15% against good units
  • ??: +15% against neutral unit
  • ??: +15% against evil units
  • Witch Hunter : +20% against units with channeling I, II, III, and against illusions and summons (ie: arcane & disciple + amurite), target disciple & arcane first
  • Rage: +15% attack str, -10% defense str, cannot fortify....
  • [*][PROMOTION] Blood Mage class no longer requires Blood Ritual spell research.
    [*][RELIGION] Adjust damage and damage limit of miracles to mirror arcane spells.
    [*][RELIGION] Temple of the Order gives -10% maintenance and +10 xp for Disciple units.
    [*][RELIGION] Light of Lugus now works in any city, not only other civ's capital.
    [*][RELIGION] Revelation deals random damage Illusion in 3-tile radius. Cost 300 Faith, requires Channelling 2.
    [*][RELIGION] Crown of Brilliance will damage units around the caster each turn, as long as the promotion is there.
    [*][RELIGION] FOL's Call to the Herd can be used in Plains and Sordid Fields.
    [*][RELIGION] FOL's Song of Autumn gives +50% length Golden Age.
    [*][RELIGION] AV's Inferno spell is moved to Infernal Possession (it targets *all* enemy units on a tile, so it's very powerful).
    [*][RELIGION] AV's Rain of Fire terraform is moved to Infernal Pact (halved its effect and cost).
    [*][TRAIT] Add Defender, Faithful and Raiders as selectable Adaptive traits.
    [*][TRAIT] Create a set of duplicate Traits for Adaptive. This will fix trait boughts erased by Adaptive.
    [*][TRAIT] Faithful gets Great Prophet whenever acquires religion-starting tech. The most obvious way is through Ancient Chants.
    all are good, question about Faithful : it was already the case, but if you "buy" faithful trait, you don't get some of those GP...
    [*][TRAIT] Imperial requires no yield to build Constructin Yard and Command Post.
    [*][TRAIT] Miner requires no yield to build Mining Guild, Shaft Mine and Deep Mine.
    [*][TRAIT] Organized requires no yield to build Courthouse, Harbor and Lighthouse.
    [*][TRAIT] Summoner reduces summon cost by 25% (it was 33%) and gives summoned unit +30 xp (also affect Sheaim's Planar Gate summons).
those are also nice ones !
 
Re: Blitz
Yes, blizt makes the unit gains less exp per attack but let's look at the other side of the promotion: it allows a unit to attack more than once, which is very beneficial for players.


Re: Miracle and Faith
  • Do you think Miracles (especially direct damage spells from priests) cost too many Faith? Personally, I always swimming in Faith, especially if I have several Incense around. Yet, if the general consensus is the miracles are too expensive, I can reduce them a bit.
  • Faith can be used to pop Sacred Knowledge. When you have lots of Faith, go to Science/Religion screen and click on the Sacred Knowledge you'd like to buy. If you have the required amount of Faith, you'll get that Sacred Knowledge instantly. It's the same with using GB's Tale of Legend to increase your empire culture and then buy guild tech.
  • This make Faithful quite useful since popping the GP will earn the player 2nd Sacred Knowledge *and* be able to cast Tribute to... GE, for further Faith. Good start to get Religious victory.

Re: Priests
The only priests do not benefit from Altar, Potion of Clarity etc are AV Priests. Maybe I will make some AV religious buildings to grant xp to disciple units following AV. Infernal Effigy, maybe.
I will make miracles unique for High Priests. Atm, The Empyrean has Crown of Brilliance for their HP. The Ashen Veil has Inferno, etc. will make some more.


Re: Vengeance
The flavour of this discipline is "good against specific type of units". Thus, their promotions are mainly "% vs xyz". The limitation on "xyz" are:
  • A type of unitcombat (% vs disciple units)
  • A type of promotion (% vs units with Channeling I, II, III would be three separate promotions)

Re: Healer's Cirle
I am still reluctant to open Healer's Circle to Evil leaders. Maybe I will make Poisons tech unlock a type of healing potion; not as potent as the ones from Healer's Circle and maybe with temporary side effect.


Re: Jotnar
  • Previous discussion argues that it is better to adopt general unit mechanism (unique roster, get +2 from techs etc) to Jotnar but I want to give them something really special. So, current changelog is a placeholder until I can finish their unit roster.
  • Age gives certain promotions, which increase Jotnar unit's strength and overall efficiency.
  • Jotnar population consume 5 food per turn, making their cities rarely grow bigger than 8; but unlike Austrin's it is possible to make Jotnar cities grow bigger with proper enchantments.

Re: Aristarkh
Definitely needs some rework, especially for boring early game.
 
thanks esvath for your comprehension :D

why do you say that only AV priests do not benefit from Altar/ Potion of clarity ?
OO and FoL do not either... when you start with an Evil civ ! (unless there is an easy way to chose "Neutral" ? )(changing religion to switch alignement is much harder, more costly and more penalizing than in normal FFH).

For Faith, I was under the impression that "buying" the faith-tech was too expensive (you always pay it full-cost, even if you already accumulated 2/3rd of it cost in "automatically-removed-faith"). (and I can't remember the way to check the advancement of your research on faith-tech. for me it always marks the "full price" even if it has already been 20+turns at 50faith/turn. (so I produce 100, but 50 got for my use and 50 for the faith tech) (this mechanic always make me feel that I'm cheated of half my faith...)

re Blitz: I find that attacking multiple times per turn is beneficial, but it's not worth 2/3 of the xp gain (and sometimes it's loss is even greater due to rounding error)
(I cannot see any situation were I desesperatly and absolutly need to remove those 1-2 extra units in that current turn, that I wouldn't be able to alleviate by using that 2moves to occupy the critical place and survive the turn by defending).
The only slight gain of Blitz is the following : a BARD with headhunter contract : the culture and gold gain is doubled or tripled.
otherwise, just killing units while losing xp is a big NO.
I'd rather use 3 units and get 9 xp !
I think that you overestimate the worth of Blitz.
I don't disagree that it's powerful and beneficial to the player; But it's rarely worth 2/3 of futur xp gain.
(at least with the Orthus Axe I can send it to another unit when I want my unit to be able to gain xp)

re-Vengeance: can't the promotion give +% vs multiple units /unit type ? do we really need multiple promotions to allow that?
because, if yes, I think the ideas I gave should be possible (save, maybe the living/not-living).
(and I'm sure that you can give the promotion against unit_Type : old axeman had 20%vs warrior (unit_type).
IIRC, there was a way to target good/evil/neutral ?? I think I remember seeing it somewhere.

Further, for me the flavor of "vengeance discipline" was the following : how to get promotion that are tailored to the unit-target.
I could really see for example an improvement of Shock II which would give: "+40% against swordmen":and you build the promotion as "+40% against..." and you get all the unit_type that are illustrated with a sword (melee or recon).
get an improvement of ShockII which is "+40% against spearman" : the list in the promotion counts all unit_type which are represented with a lance
an improvement over Formation II, which is "+40% against light cavalry" : lists all light cavalry ...Etc
(but I'm sure that this would clutter a bit the promotion tree).
However shock/anti-recon/formation have quite large number of targets;
conversly, anti-dark-elf has no value once you killed the svart civ... so I find that it's worth is limited, save maybe for cannon-fodder troops that you don't expect to use after that war. But the reasonning issue here is that the unit supply limit works AGAINST the use of cannon fodder troops.
 
Seems like smth is terribly wrong with barbarians.:huh:
Just got to a barbarian city, which had an insane amount of Ogres in it.
After attacking my units for like 10 minutes they then stepped out of the city with more than 300 (three hundreds!) Ogres...
 
Here goes
upload_2016-10-27_17-32-55.png
 
why do you say that only AV priests do not benefit from Altar/ Potion of clarity ?
OO and FoL do not either... when you start with an Evil civ ! (unless there is an easy way to chose "Neutral" ? )(changing religion to switch alignement is much harder, more costly and more penalizing than in normal FFH).
Darn. I forgot about Evil FOL or OO players xD
Maybe Prophecy of Ragnarok should give xp for disciple units then? 30xp, since it is early wonder?

Or maybe Temple district give 10xp for disciples?

Yes, this is a known bug. Unfortunately, it is a bug in the DLL file and I don't know how to mod DLL.
For temporary fix, use worldbuilder to delete the Ogres and their city. They only spawn in one city.
 
Good / what benefit is there to have the students ? if it's only to have 4 different ways to cast "+20culture" I'm not sure if it's really interesting.
Forgot to answer this one.
You can use the students to spread their religion to your cities. Then, you can build their respective school in that city, for various benefits.

re-Vengeance: can't the promotion give +% vs multiple units /unit type ? do we really need multiple promotions to allow that?
Can't do this, code limitation. Only vs one promotion or vs one unitcombat.

Vengeance is more specialised discipline. You are good against something but that's it. For more general promotions, choose Skirmish. Ambush is good at, well, ambushing (hidden, haste, first strike).
Again, overall, I think recon promotions are less useful in general than melee. Recon promotions are either very specific (Vengeance) or not boosting combat ability (Ambush). Melee promotions, OTOH, are more useful in general situation.
 
ambush not boosting combat ??? +5str is not boosting combat ? I'm wondering..
true, there is hidden and haste...etc... and you are right that they are not really useful. but I rarely need to take them.
combat V +Drill + ambush + disciple of aeron, +poison I,II,III (to get both +2str and poison bomb), then (already 10 promotion) + cleverness + hero, and then heroic attack 1&2 ... and then a filler promotion : haste or reduced terrain, or hiding.. and then 16th promotion : second class....Etc
this is already enough. I can get useful promotion until level 16. where do the "combat promotion" come into play ?

but I agree that vengeance is a bit too specific. It really would be nice to have some less specific but still specific promotions :D

as for melee promotions being more useful than recon promo, I would like you to explain, because I'm sure I'm missing something here.
 
I'm currently looking at getting Eidolon.
they suck.
the only advantage they have over my "mundane" tier III Defender melee unit (svartalfar) is that they have "march" ... and are opened to demonic promotion
but they come at a costlier tech, are also melee (not like paladin that are disciple) and do not get sword and towershield... and do not get the double movement in forest of elves.

give me my culture back !! they are worthless !
(IMO they are underwhelming ; like paladins (which at least get medic/demon slaying..etc). Even HP, which are 1 tech lower are 11str (1less) and can cast spells.
Druids are 10str... +3nature affinity : so they have at least 13 as a base and can cast spells, and 2mvt !!

Eidolon need some love !)
 
Calavente you really need to stop making judgments based on singular experiences with one civilization. Eidolons might not be good for elves but they are godsends for other evil nations. You say druids have nature affinity. So what? If an evil civ does not like playing with nature mana, then druids are also a waste of culture and time.

All you are doing is just boasting about the strength of Svartalfar recon units and horsehockyting on anything that is not as powerful. Well no fudging horsehocky. You're playing a recon focused civ. You've clogged up this thread with multiple posts about this and it is frankly getting annoying.
 
Yes, this is a known bug. Unfortunately, it is a bug in the DLL file and I don't know how to mod DLL.
For temporary fix, use worldbuilder to delete the Ogres and their city. They only spawn in one city.
It is easier to modify .cpp, .h, .inl, .rc files. To modify DLL files you need to enter debug in civilization 4 and run line by line and modify the line your currently on. The line with the spawning of bard most likely needs to be deleted. I could run you through the process to get to the line by line part.....
 
I don't know if it's a bug or if i've being doing something wrong, but i just can't cast Hallowing of the Elohim. According to civilopedia, i have all the requirements and i still can't see the spell under the miracles tab, nor in anywhere else.
Also, the stunned effect does not seem to be working properly. The enemy stack actually gets the effect, but it does not prevent them for acting.
Just got a stack of goblins attacking my monk (with ki strike promotion), their stack got the effect after the first attacker, but still, all the stack managed to attack my monk.
 
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