The Falkland Islands

imperialman

Admiral
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
1,028
Location
Glasgow
With rhetoric flying back and forward over these last few months, I'm wondering about the opinion of OT'ers.

This is what made me decide to create this thread;

"Britain’s Prime Minister, David Cameron, today accused Argentina of colonialism over that countries attempts to gain control of the Falkland Islands."
http://falklandsnews.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/britain-accuses-argentina-of-colonialism/

Basic info

The Falkland Islands are an archipelago in the South Atlantic Ocean, located about 250 nautical miles (290 mi; 460 km) from the coast of mainland South America. The archipelago consists of East Falkland, West Falkland and 776 lesser islands. The capital, Stanley, is on East Falkland.

The islands are an internally self-governing British Overseas Territory, with the United Kingdom responsible for defence and foreign affairs.

Ever since the re-establishment of British rule in 1833, Argentina has claimed sovereignty. In pursuit of this claim, which is rejected by the islanders, Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands in 1982. This precipitated the two-month-long undeclared Falklands War between Argentina and the United Kingdom and resulted in the defeat and withdrawal of the Argentine forces.

The British claim to de jure sovereignty dates from 1690, and the United Kingdom has exercised de facto sovereignty over the archipelago almost constantly since 1833. Argentina has long disputed this claim, having been in control of the islands for a brief period prior to 1833. The dispute escalated in 1982, when Argentina invaded the islands, precipitating the Falklands War.

Contemporary Falkland Islanders consider themselves to be British. They gained full British citizenship with the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983, after the Falklands War. Argentina argues that the islanders do not have the right to self-determination, arguing that they are not aboriginal and were brought to replace the Argentine population that Argentina claims was expelled after the re-establishment of British rule in 1833. The United Nations have called on both countries to begin dialogue over the sovereignty claim.

Major moments in recent history

In 2007, 25 years after the war, Argentina reasserted its claim over the Falkland Islands, asking for the UK to resume talks on sovereignty.

In March 2009, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown stated in a meeting with Argentine President Cristina Fernández that there would be no talks over the future sovereignty of the Falkland Islands. As far as the governments of the UK and of the Falkland Islands are concerned, there is no issue to resolve. The Falkland Islanders consider themselves as almost entirely British and maintain their allegiance to the United Kingdom.

In October 2007 a British spokeswoman confirmed that Britain intended to submit a claim to the UN to extend seabed territory around the Falklands and South Georgia, in advance of the expiry of the deadline for territorial claims following Britain's ratification of the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention. This claim would enable Britain to control activities such as fishing within the zone, in areas not conflicting with the Antarctic Treaty. Argentina has indicated it will challenge any British claim to Antarctic territory and the area around the Falkland Islands and South Georgia.

Argentina made a similar claim in 2009, and the United Kingdom quickly protested against these claims.

In 2009, when delegates from the Falkland Islands were invited to the World Summit on Fishing Sustainability, the Argentine delegation protested and walked out of the conference. In February 2010, the Argentine government announced that ships traversing Argentine territorial waters en route to the Falklands, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands would require a permit, as part of a dispute over British oil exploration near the Falklands. The British and Falkland governments stated that Falklands-controlled waters were unaffected.

In late 2011 Mercosur decided to bar Falklands’ flagged vessels, though this has little impact as they are entitled to fly British flags also. This follows the decision from the region to deny British warships use of South American ports.


Timeline of de facto control

February 1764 – April 1767 -- France
January 1765 – July 1770 -- Great Britain
April 1767 – February 1811 -- Spain
September 1771 – May 1776 -- Great Britain
February 1811 – August 1829 -- None
August 1829 – December 1831 -- United Provinces
December 1831 – January 1832 -- United States
January 1832 – December 1832 -- None
December 1832 – January 1833 -- Argentine Confederation
January 1833 – August 1833 -- United Kingdom
August 1833 – January 1834 -- None
January 1834 – April 1982 -- United Kingdom
April 1982 – June 1982 -- Argentina
June 1982 – present -- United Kingdom
 
Almost forgot, here are the basics (from wikipedia) for each nations claim.

Spoiler :
British claim

The British first landed on the Falklands in 1690, when Captain John Strong sailed through Falkland Sound, naming this passage of water after Anthony Cary, 5th Viscount of Falkland, the First Lord of the Admiralty at that time. The British were keen to settle the islands, as they had the potential to be a strategic naval base for passage around Cape Horn. In 1765, Captain John Byron landed on Saunders Island. He then explored other islands' coasts and claimed the group for Britain. The following year, Captain John McBride returned to Port Egmont, on Saunders, to construct a fort. The British later discovered the French colony at Port Saint Louis, and the first sovereignty dispute began.

The Spanish expelled the British colony in 1770, but it was restored in 1771 following British threats of war over the islands. However, in 1774, economic pressures leading up to the American Revolutionary War forced Great Britain to withdraw from many overseas settlements. By 1776, the British had left their settlement, leaving behind a plaque asserting British sovereignty over the islands. Although there was no British administration in the islands, British and American sealers routinely used them to hunt for seals, also taking on fresh water as well as feral cattle, pigs and even penguins for provisions. Whalers also used the islands to shelter from the South Atlantic weather and to take on fresh provisions.

Luis Vernet approached the British for permission to build a settlement at the former Spanish settlement of Puerto Soledad, initially in 1826 and again in 1828 following the failure of the earlier expedition. In addition, Vernet requested British protection for his settlement should the British choose to form a permanent presence on the islands. After receiving assurances from the British minister chargé d'affaires, Sir Woodbine Parish, Vernet provided regular reports to the British on the progress of his enterprise. Vernet's appointment as Governor in 1829 was protested by the British Consul Parish, in return the Government of the United Provinces of the River Plate merely acknowledged the protest. Britain protested again when Vernet announced his intentions to exercise exclusive rights over fishing and sealing in the islands. (Similar protests were received from the American representative, who protested at the curtailment of established rights and that the United States did not recognise the jurisdiction of the United Provinces over the islands.) Vernet continued to provide regular reports to Parish throughout this period.

The raid of the USS Lexington in December 1831 combined with the United Provinces assertions of sovereignty were the spur for the British to establish a military presence on the islands.

On 2 January 1833, Captain James Onslow, of the brig-sloop HMS Clio, arrived at the Spanish settlement at Port Louis to request that the Argentine flag be replaced with the British one, and for the Argentine administration to leave the islands. While Argentine Lt. Col. José María Pinedo, commander of the Argentine schooner Sarandí, wanted to resist, his numerical disadvantage was obvious, particularly as a large number of his crew were British mercenaries who were unwilling to fight their own countrymen. Such a situation was not unusual in the newly independent states in Latin America, where land forces were strong, but navies were frequently quite undermanned. As such he protested verbally, but departed without a fight on 5 January. The colony was set up and the islands continued under a British presence until the Falklands War.

After their return in 1833, the British began moves to begin a fully-fledged colony on the islands, initially based upon the settlers remaining in Port Louis. Vernet's deputy, Matthew Brisbane, returned later that year to take charge of the settlement and was encouraged to further Vernet's business interests provided he did not seek to assert Argentine Government authority.

In 1841, General Rosas offered to relinquish any Argentine territorial claims in return for relief of debts owed to interests in the City of London. The British Government chose to ignore the offer.

A British colonial administration was formed in 1842. This was expanded in 1908, when in addition to South Georgia claimed in 1775, and the South Shetland Islands claimed in 1820 the UK unilaterally declared sovereignty over more Antarctic territory south of the Falklands, including the South Sandwich Islands, the South Orkney Islands, and Graham Land, grouping them into the Falkland Islands Dependencies.

Following the introduction of the Antarctic Treaty System in 1959 the Falkland Island Dependencies were reduced to include South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. Territory south of the 60th parallel was formed into a new dependency, the British Antarctic Territory which overlaps claims by Argentina (Argentine Antarctica) and Chile (Antártica Chilena Province).

In 1976 the British Government commissioned a study on the future of the Falklands, looking at the ability of the Islands to sustain themselves, and the potential for economic development. The study was led by Lord Shackleton, son of the Antarctic explorer, Ernest Shackleton. Argentina reacted with fury to the study and refused to allow Lord Shackleton permission to travel to the Islands from Argentina, forcing the British to send a Royal Navy ship to transport him to the Islands. In response Argentina severed diplomatic links with the UK. An Argentine naval vessel later fired upon the ship carrying Shackleton as he visited his father's grave in South Georgia.

Shackleton's report found that contrary to popular belief, the Falkland Islands actually provided a surplus by its economic activities and was not dependent on British aid to survive. However the report stressed the need for a political settlement if further economic growth was to be achieved, particularly from the exploitation of any natural resources in the water around the Islands.


Argentine claim

Argentina declared its independence from Spain in 1816, although this was not then recognised by any of the major powers. Britain recognized Argentine independence on December 15, 1823, as the "province of Buenos Aires," but like the US did not recognise the full extent of the territory claimed by the new state.

The new state, the United Provinces of the River Plate, was formed by provinces of the former Viceroyalty of the River Plate and as such claimed sovereignty over the Falklands. In October 1820, the frigate Heroína, under the command of American privateer Colonel David Jewett, arrived in Puerto Soledad following an eight-month voyage and with most of her crew incapacitated by scurvy and disease (a storm had severely damaged the Heroína and had sunk its prize, the Carlota, forcing Jewett to put into Puerto Soledad for repairs). The captain chose to rest and recover in the islands, seeking assistance from the British explorer James Weddell. Weddell reported that only thirty seamen and forty soldiers out of a complement of two hundred were fit for duty, and that Jewett slept with pistols over his head following an attempted mutiny.

On November 6, 1820, Jewett raised the flag of the United Provinces of the River Plate and claimed possession of the islands for the new state. Weddell reported that the letter he received from Jewett read:
Sir, I have the honor of informing you that I have arrived in this port with a commission from the Supreme Government of the United Provinces of the Rio de la Plata to take possession of these islands on behalf of the country to which they belong by Natural Law. While carrying out this mission I want to do so with all the courtesy and respect all friendly nations; one of the objectives of my mission is to prevent the destruction of resources necessary for all ships passing by and forced to cast anchor here, as well as to help them to obtain the necessary supplies, with minimum expenses and inconvenience. Since your presence here is not in competition with these purposes and in the belief that a personal meeting will be fruitful for both of us, I invite you to come aboard, where you'll be welcomed to stay as long as you wish; I would also greatly appreciate your extending this invitation to any other British subject found in the vicinity; I am, respectfully yours. Signed, Jewett, Colonel of the Navy of the United Provinces of South America and commander of the frigate Heroína.

Many modern authors report this letter as the declaration issued by Jewett claiming the islands for Argentina. Weddell did not believe that Jewett was acting with the interests of the United Provinces in mind but, rather, had merely put into the harbour in order to obtain refreshments for his crew, and that Jewett's assumption of possession was chiefly intended to secure an exclusive claim to the wreck of the French ship Uranie, which had foundered at the entrance of Berkeley Sound a few months earlier. Weddell left the islands on November 20, 1820, noting that Jewett had not yet completed repairs to the Heroína.

In 1823, the Argentines granted land on East Falkland to Luis Vernet, who first travelled to the islands the following year. That first expedition failed almost as soon as it landed, and a second attempt, in 1826, sanctioned by the British (but delayed until winter by a Brazilian blockade), also failed after arrival in the islands. In 1828, the Argentine government granted Vernet all of East Falkland, including all its resources, with exemption from taxation if a colony could be established within three years. He took settlers, including British Captain Matthew Brisbane, and before leaving once again sought permission first from the British Consulate in Buenos Aires. The British asked for a report on the islands for the British government, and Vernet asked for British protection should they return.

On Vernet's return to the Falklands, Puerto Soledad was renamed Puerto Luis. The Argentine government appointed Vernet governor in 1829, to which the British objected as an Argentine attempt to foster political and economic ties to the islands. One of Vernet's first acts was to curb seal hunting on the Islands to conserve the dwindling seal population. In response, the British consul at Buenos Aires protested the move and restated the claim of his government. Islanders were born during this period (including Malvina María Vernet y Saez, Vernet's daughter).

Vernet later seized the American ship Harriet for breaking his restrictions on seal hunting. Property on board the ship was seized and the captain was returned to Buenos Aires to stand trial. The American Consul in Argentina protested Vernet's actions and stated that the United States did not recognise Argentine sovereignty in the Falklands. The consul dispatched a warship, the USS Lexington, to Puerto Luis to retake the confiscated property.

By 1831, the colony was successful enough to be advertising for new colonists, although a report by the captain of the Lexington suggests that the conditions on the islands were quite miserable. The captain of the Lexington in his report asserts that he destroyed the settlement's powder store and spiked the guns, however it was later claimed that during the raid the Argentine settlement at Puerto Luis was destroyed. Upon leaving to return to Montevideo, the captain of the Lexington declared the islands to be res nullius (the property of no one). (Darwin's visit in 1833 confirmed the squalid conditions in the settlement, although Captain Matthew Brisbane (Vernet's deputy) later insisted that those were the result of the attack by the Lexington.) Vernet having returned to Buenos Aires in 1831 before the Lexington's attack resigned as governor. An interim governor, Esteban José Francisco Mestivier, was appointed by the Argentine Government, who with his family arrived at Puerto Luis aboard the schooner Sarandí in October 1832. Mestivier's appointment again drew protests from the British consul in Buenos Aires.

The Sarandí, under the command of its captain, José María Pinedo, then began to patrol the surrounding seas. Upon its return to Puerto Luis on December 29, 1832, the Sarandí found the colony in an uproar. In Pinedo's absence there had been a mutiny led by a man named Gomila; Mestivier had been murdered and his wife raped. The captain of the French vessel Jean Jacques had meanwhile provided assistance disarming and incarcerating the mutineers. Pinedo dispatched the mutineers to Buenos Aires with the British schooner Rapid. Gomila would be condemned to exile, while six other mutineers were executed.

On January 2, 1833, Captain John Onslow arrived and delivered written requests that Pinedo lower the Argentine flag in favour of the British one, and that the Argentine administration leave the islands. Pinedo asked if war had been declared between Argentina and Great Britain; Onslow replied that it had not. Nonetheless, Pinedo, heavily outmanned and outgunned, left the islands under protest. Argentines subsequently claimed that the population of Puerto Luis was expelled at the same time, though sources from the time appear to dispute this, suggesting that the colonists were encouraged to remain under Vernet's deputy, Matthew Brisbane. Later that year, Manuel Moreno, representing the United Provinces before Britain, protested the occupation, which the British rejected six months later. The British did not answer other formal protests that were made annually until 1849.

Back on the mainland, Pinedo faced court martial; he was suspended for four months and transferred to the army, though he was recalled to the navy in 1845.
 
When I was in Argentina 3 years ago one of the things I was instructed to not to do is to refer to the Islas Malvinas by their British name. To do so would be very impolite and maybe even dangerous. So I got used to it..

In the end I think it should be up to the people who live there.
 
Too often, "the people who were there first" is taken to be synonymous with "the people who were there when Europeans first showed up".

It doesn't matter if some Argentines were living there before the British showed up, it's who's there now that matters.
 
The Argentinians can cry loudly about that, and that's about the only thing they can do, if they don't want another war. They shouldn't have lost the last one, now they have to accept the consequences.

Also, the islanders themselves clearly want to be a British colony, so let them. What right does Argentina have to deny them the right for self-determination under these circumstances? It's absurd.

(And yes, I know the Argentinians want the oil that might be near the islands, but greed doesn't make right).
 
Utterly ridiculous. Loyal British citizens on land that is rightfully British land.

To expect any British to even consider this would be like expecting any American to actually consider relinquishing sovereignity over Hawaii because Japan or China decided they wanted it.

Stuff the Argentine claims and if they interfere in any way with the operations or day to day lives of the islands or its legitimate surrounding territory/seabed/etc then use that swanky new carrier to impose your will. If it were up to me, I'd loan you one of ours til yours is ready.
 
You're absolutely right. Argentina inflaming this by making ridiculous claims is very destabilizing.

If you meant ME calling for a new war, you're totally off base. I'm calling for defending sovereign territory with a show of strength. Peace through superior firepower.
 
You're absolutely right. Argentina inflaming this by making ridiculous claims is very destabilizing.

If you meant ME calling for a new war, you're totally off base. I'm calling for defending sovereign territory with a show of strength. Peace through superior firepower.

Agreed. It's often said that if the British navy had a fleet carrier in '82 then Argentina wouldn't have tried to invade. Carriers are a good deterrent as was shown in British Honduras.
 
So the Argentinian claim is based on the fact they held those islands briefly for a month nearly 200 years ago?

And this is supposed to override the wishes of the people who live there now?
I´d actually be interested in hearing a pro-Argentinian argument. I just can't see anything to take them seriously.
 
It's still a very warmongering-like stance.

I don't see how. I see one nation making sovereignty claims against another nation's territory to be the warmongering-like stance.

Again, if the PRC decided they think Hawaii is PRC territory and began interfering with shipping and whatnot in Hawaiian waters and suggesting that the USA turn the territory over to the PRC, what exactly do you think the USA should do about it?

  • Acquiesce to their 'suggestion' and turn Hawaii over the the PRC.
  • Enter good faith negotiations with the PRC to resolve the issue.
  • Force all PRC forces/entities/whatever interfering with 'shipping and whatnot' in Hawaiian waters the hell out of Hawaiian waters using whatever means are necessary (this is that peace through superior firepower thing... the show of overwhelming force and willingness to use it should be quite sufficient to make the other back down.)
Really, do you think we should even entertain the first two? This is precisely what Argentina is doing to the UK. If so, then I suppose if someone showed up on your door and demanding you let them have your home, you'd just happily go along with that?
 
If there were Argentinian-identified people who seek independence or a return to Argentinia on the Falklands, it would be a different matter, but as it is there's hardly anything going for Argentinia.
 
I don't see how. I see one nation making sovereignty claims against another nation's territory to be the warmongering-like stance.

Well, it's pretty clear they aren't willing to risk another war over it. They've pretty much given up on *that*

There are tons of border disputes around the world, it doesn't help to suggest that there should be a war over every single claim.. especially when the 2 parties already fought a war and don't really want to fight another one.

edit: I wish we had an Argentinian on here to give us the other side of the story because everyone on here clearly supports the British pov
 
Well, it's pretty clear they aren't willing to risk another war over it. They've pretty much given up on *that*
Then they should shut up, because past living history suggests they WILL go to war over this. You may not remember it, but I remember seeing British ships ablaze and the cost in lives the Brits had to pay to save their citizens from the occupation of a foreign power.
it doesn't help to suggest that there should be a war over every single claim..
And I never suggested that, once, at all. Re-read my posts because you're either deliberately misrepresenting me or not understanding me. I am suggesting preventing war by showing the other side precisely just how far 'our' side is willing to go to protect its territory.
 
As the timeline below shows, Les Malouines were born french, so they should be french. Ok let's make a deal: We'll drop our claim to Les Malouines, if the Argentinians give us Messi, and the British keep Bekham for themselves ;-)


Timeline of de facto control

February 1764 – April 1767 -- France
January 1765 – July 1770 -- Great Britain
April 1767 – February 1811 -- Spain
September 1771 – May 1776 -- Great Britain
February 1811 – August 1829 -- None
August 1829 – December 1831 -- United Provinces
December 1831 – January 1832 -- United States
January 1832 – December 1832 -- None
December 1832 – January 1833 -- Argentine Confederation
January 1833 – August 1833 -- United Kingdom
August 1833 – January 1834 -- None
January 1834 – April 1982 -- United Kingdom
April 1982 – June 1982 -- Argentina
June 1982 – present -- United Kingdom
 
I am suggesting preventing war by showing the other side precisely just how far 'our' side is willing to go to protect its territory.

It's unnecessary. All it will do is antagonize the other side and raise tensions.

That's the last thing we want, really.
 
Top Bottom