SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits

Sleepless · Dec 31, 2010

One of the things we have to think about are what buildings are going to help us with the short time we have left. Tbh very little. I can't see much point with espionage buildings now. Anything we can steal we can trade for. I would rather build wealth or research than the spies for treasury stealing.

I agree with clearing the fallout on the horse island. Whether DG will take a city there though is doubtful.

Bit pushed for time today as going out in 20 mins and won't be back till next year.

So just to wish everybody a Happy New Year.

haphazard1 · Dec 31, 2010

I am finally back from my vacation to Texas, had a very good time.

Drop me back into the rotation wherever.

Looks like good turnsets from MacArine and JerichoHill. :thumbsup:

We are nearing the deadline faster than I like, so I agree we should push for longer turnsets and faster turnarounds. This will mean a bit less input from the team, but unless a major problem (wars, nukes, etc.) is encountered we should keep pushing forward.

Steam Power...we should check all our cities and build levees where they will be most useful. We have at least a couple cities which should pick up a sizable number of hammers.

I agree with Sleepless that building espionage buildings is probably not the best course at this point -- we have relatively few turns left in the game and most techs should be available by trade (although perhaps with some delays). With Caste we can run more scientists rather than spies, and keep the research flowing.

Good luck, Sleepless! And Happy New Year to everyone.

JerichoHill · Dec 31, 2010

Hey guys

HAPPY NEW YEAR DUDES!

Sun Tzu Wu · Dec 31, 2010

Sleepless said:
One of the things we have to think about are what buildings are going to help us with the short time we have left. Tbh very little. I can't see much point with espionage buildings now. Anything we can steal we can trade for. I would rather build wealth or research than the spies for treasury stealing.

For each city, we need to be building what makes the most sense for our civilization. In case of a unit or civilization-wide great/national wonder, it must be a high priority unit or wonder and should be built in a city with no pressing need of a particular building/wonder. In the case of a building or city-only great/national wonder, we must build what make the most sense for that city.

Since few of us play BtS with the same operational tactics and strategies in mind, we may not always agreed on how to play our SG. That is great, because we can learn from each other.

So far, the only thing we have used Espionage for is seeing what Gandhi is researching. That was fine until Roosevelt became the research leader.

The BtS Espionage system is far more powerful than what we have been using it for. I'm not suggesting that we devote a major amount of resources to it. Just build an espionage building occasionally, when there's nothing else more useful to build. Also, hire a spy specialist after scientists slots have been filled. Note that getting a Great Spy would be great, since that helps us produce enough different Great People that we could possibly do a Three Great Person Great Age after our Two Great Person Great Age.

> Anything we can steal we can trade for. <

I'm not suggesting that we can generate enough Espionage points to steal a Technology from Roosevelt or even Gandhi. However, you should understand that your statement above is obviously wrong. A spy can steal a Technology from an AI leader as soon as it has completed the Technology, possibly far earlier than when it would be willing to trade it. There are also Technologies that an AI Leader will never trade, such as all Technologies that unlock Space Ship parts, which is quite important in a Space Colony Victory attempt.

Espionage also has its defensive side. You can be sure that some AI leader may attempt to steal our Technologies. Investing some of our "spare" capacity into Espionage will help thwart such activities, including the sabotage of our Space Ship parts and other such Spy related nastiness.

So whether or not you want to invest in espionage point generation, espionage buildings, build spies, hire spy specialists, we may suffer for it by neglecting such things.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Dec 31, 2010

haphazard1 said:
Steam Power...we should check all our cities and build levees where they will be most useful. We have at least a couple cities which should pick up a sizable number of hammers.

Great idea. We should build a levee in every city that has a significant number of river plots connected to the city, assuming that city has enough Hammers per turn to complete the levee in a reasonable time frame. How many such river plots should we set as our benchmark threshold for building a levee? We may not always want to build a levee for a city with only two connected river plots after all.

When we get Superconductors in 4t, we will probably want to interrupt nearly all our builds to start Research Institutes. Some cities will need slavery to build Research Institutes and some other infrastructure. Do we have enough such cities to justify a switch to slavery? We probably do want to sacrifice 4-5 Population to complete a Research Institute in those cities that would otherwise take "forever" to complete it.

haphazard1 said:
I agree with Sleepless that building espionage buildings is probably not the best course at this point -- we have relatively few turns left in the game and most techs should be available by trade (although perhaps with some delays). With Caste we can run more scientists rather than spies, and keep the research flowing.

Obviously, we need to focus far more on research now than espionage and increasing hammer rate for future Space Ship building cities, but when a city can't build another research multiplying building, wealth multiplying building, health/happiness providing building as needed, commerce building (Courthouse, Harbor, Customs House), hammer multiplying buildings and hammer buildings (Levee, Mining Inc. Executive) as makes sense for the city to build:

1) We should seriously consider building an Espionage building with a somewhat lower priority than everything else that the city actually needs.

2) Build a Spy as needs (defensive and offensive) for such units change.

Also, hire some spy specialists (4 Bpt + 4 Ept), especially when not running Caste System and we have no more room for another scientist (6 Bpt).

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Dec 31, 2010

Sleepless said:
I agree with clearing the fallout on the horse island. Whether DG will take a city there though is doubtful.

We should build a city on "Horse Island" north of Capital with Horse in the BFC. De Gaulle will likely accept the new city, because his prospects for a better second city are dismal.

If De Gaulle doesn't want the city, we might be able to "sweeten" deal by adding an obsolete Technology.

If De Gaulle still doesn't want the city, at least it is close to our Capital and thus won't cost much when we switch to free market. We can even make it grow via Sid's Sushi and add more Hammers via Mining, Inc. However, I'm 99% sure De Gaulle will accept such a city. It is over seas, if that matters to the AI.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Dec 31, 2010

This may cost some Wealth per turn to support in regard to our moderately sized military and future more modern military needed to eliminate Stalin, but it may well be a worthwhile change.

This will also limit Confucian Missionary production to cities that contain a Confucian Monastery.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sleepless · Jan 1, 2011

Looking at the amount of turns left and the requirement for lots of buildings goes down considerably. Without a ton of working out every payoff for every building in each and every city I think we should concentrate on the main cities. Especially ones which will build space parts.

Not over keen on mass whipping during a golden age. The loss of production and regrowth time wouldn't to my mind be worth the quicker RI's. With Caste/SP and Golden Ages grass workshops are 2f5h tiles so most cities apart from the new ones have reasonable production. Once we convert to FM/Corporations perhaps slavery will be a good use then. But how many of our ciites will we spread mining/sushi to. Its not just the cost but the executives needed as well.

Also when do we change from SP to Corporations? Must admit to being a bit worried about the cost so will go my planned tech route unless anyone objects.

Otherwise we should go Med/Steel/RR adopt FM and spread corps.

Sleepless · Jan 1, 2011

Well very short turnset as looking for some advice.

Churchill is just about to declare on DG. I guess the only thing we can do is bribe him to peace with Biology. The other option is to try and give DG a city now but what one will he take?

Have been building hermitage in a few places for failure gold later. Timed GPs so next one from Paris then capital guess remainder will come from Sugar/Pig after that.

Note also adopted Caste and next turn Superconductors in. Did 1 turn at 0% research to get some money in the bank from Wall Street etc. Also do we want to go for Mining/Sushi now or wait a few more turns? That will make sure of our tech path.

Spoiler :

plan on playing a lot more turns tomorrow i.e about 20 hrs.

Ozbenno · Jan 1, 2011

Sushi now might be a good idea, then to Industrialism. If we want to war against Stalin/Mao, go Assembly Line. We could also gift DeGaulle some units but I suppose he still has closed borders.

haphazard1 · Jan 1, 2011

Took a look at the save...looks pretty good, overall.

I think we should go ahead and grab Medicine for Sushi and start spreading it. This is going to take some time for us to get the full benefit of the extra food through growth, so we should get that started. We should also make sure to get Sushi into our border cities with France and Mao ASAP, so the extra culture will help us. The costs of leaving State Property will hurt

, but more food and specialists will help offset that.

Assembly Line after Medicine, and start getting the factories up everywhere. Then push through to Railroad for Mining Inc and start that spreading around -- again, it will take time. Industrialism for aluminum and marines to kill Stalin. Then off to the starship techs, I guess.

If we can get DeGaulle to accept a junk city and take Lyons, that would help. We need to think about getting Fission and gifting/trading it around, so we can then gift Ecology to the AIs for them to handle the fallout in their lands. Obviously this has risks with an AI Manhattan Project, and clearing fallout will boost their tech rate and power even more (how ARE they keeping up with us with all the fallout in their lands?). But I think it is the only practical way to clear all the fallout in a reasonable time.

Good luck with more turns, Sleepless!

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 1, 2011

Sleepless said:
Churchill is just about to declare on DG. I guess the only thing we can do is bribe him to peace with Biology. The other option is to try and give DG a city now but what one will he take?

Chuchill's SOD is in our Culture right now, so can't we just cancel Open Borders with him? That would force-move Churchill's SOD to just outside our border with him. Even if Churchill has a navy with Galleons moving his SOD to De Gaulle's shore, it would take an extremely long time to get there.

We have +5 Diplomacy with Churchill so it should be no problem to Open Borders with Churchill again, after we have relocated De Gaulle to a crappy City (Perhaps one to our northern Snow areas where the AIs may never find him till they get Satellites [virtually never]).

A really crappy City would be 11 north of Capital. A land locked location with only an snow hill as a workable plot. Not sure De Gaulle would accept it though.

The "Horse Island" north of Capital might be too accessible to Churchill via a navy, but ...

1) Churchill might not be willing to fight over a crappy tundra city anyway.

2) We can give De Gaulle another crappy City far from "Horse Island" as protection against De Gaulle being too vulnerable on "Horse Island".

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 1, 2011

We still have Confucianism missing from seven of our cities. Surely, we can quickly build Confucian Missionaries in our three of our most Hammer heavy cities in 1-2 turns. The production boost that Organized Religion would provide in these seven cities would be well worth the Hammers spend on Confucian Missionaries. Natural religion spread is too slow and unpredictable in my opinion.

Why aren't we building Confucian Missionaries?

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 1, 2011

We need to send out a Galleon and Explorer/mounted unit to both the north and south arctic regions. They should work their way from west to east starting at CopperRice or there abouts. We may need a Caravel and Explorer in the south to sail through Churchill's cultural waters, assuming we close borders with him.

Fortunately, the land mass we share with Churchill, Mao Zedong and Roosevelt is the only one with land locked arctic regions. Also, we know the land locked southern arctic region, not controlled by Churchill, has no Fallout.

Alternatively, we can hope that the AI leaders eventually search these areas for us and trade their World Maps with us, thus getting the same information without dedicating exploring units for this purpose.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 1, 2011

I counted 10 Sid's Sushi resources and 5 Mining, Inc. resources that appeared to be unclaimed in the northern and southern arctic regions. Two of the Sid's Sushi and none of the Mining, Inc. would difficult/impossible to claim due to known AI cultural in the area.

Eight more Sid's Sushi and five more Mining, Inc resources would be a great boost to all Sid's Sushi and Mining. Inc. locations. This would provide 0.5 x 8 Sid's Sushi resources = 4 Fpt and 1.0 x 5 Mining, Inc. resources = 5 base Hammers. These benefits will almost certainly go unused, unless we settle these sites.

These are locations that are marginal to crappy, but they will benefit all cities we spread the corresponding corporation to.

These cities will cost some maintenance, but not as much if they stay small. We can prioritize them and settle them one by one when running free market. We can stop settling them once we determine we can getting less benefit than the cost, including hammers for the Settler and its transport.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 1, 2011

haphazard1 said:
I think we should go ahead and grab Medicine for Sushi and start spreading it. This is going to take some time for us to get the full benefit of the extra food through growth, so we should get that started. We should also make sure to get Sushi into our border cities with France and Mao ASAP, so the extra culture will help us. The costs of leaving State Property will hurt , but more food and specialists will help offset that.

Assembly Line after Medicine, and start getting the factories up everywhere. Then push through to Railroad for Mining Inc and start that spreading around -- again, it will take time. Industrialism for aluminum and marines to kill Stalin. Then off to the starship techs, I guess.

I agree, except I'd prefer Industrialism before Steel -> Railroad, so we can start building marines to take out Stalin sooner, before he can get Optics -> Astronomy. There's also the chance that Steel may not be quite available for trade after we complete Medicine -> Assembly Line.

haphazard1 said:
If we can get DeGaulle to accept a junk city and take Lyons, that would help. We need to think about getting Fission and gifting/trading it around, so we can then gift Ecology to the AIs for them to handle the fallout in their lands. Obviously this has risks with an AI Manhattan Project, and clearing fallout will boost their tech rate and power even more (how ARE they keeping up with us with all the fallout in their lands?). But I think it is the only practical way to clear all the fallout in a reasonable time.

I believe that De Gaulle might accept almost any city we offer to give him. He will now accept any city we have; its just a matter of price; we may have to pay him to take a crappy city (I vaguely recall desperate AI leaders accepting crappy cities as gifts).

Gifting Fission sounds reasonable, since the alternative is gifting Assembly Line -> Industrialism -> Plastics and Steel -> Railroad -> Combustion. We certainly don't want to give those Technologies away.

Although only the Space Colony Victory is enabled, it appears that The United Nations is available and thus U.N. Resolution #1284 (Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty - Cannot Build Nuclear Weapons) is available. What puzzles me is the U.N. Election (Diplomatic Victory) also shows up in the Resolutions tab, so perhaps The United Nations can't be built after all (The whole Victory Conditions/Resolutions tab may false information).

Sun Tzu Wu

Sleepless · Jan 2, 2011

Agree on the Conf missionaries though I have only played a couple of turns and instead of pushing out a couple of settlers/hermitage for failure cash should have spread it a bit more. Against that the 10% science boost for FR would be better once we have most of our RI's up but will concentrate on getting a few out this turnset.

Like the idea of closing borders with Churchill as I doubt DG will accept Horse Island plus we haven't cleared the fallout. Have to see if we can give him some ice ball somewhere then take Lyons ourselves.

. Will try and gift him horse island once fallout cleared.

I'm currently using a blimp to clear some of the fog/check for fallout though the closed borders with Churchill will stop most of that. We have a caravel running round so will build an explorer for that and see what tiles we need to clear.

Have to see what GPs we get for the Golden Ages might have to spend a few turns in normal mode but shouldn't be to long before we can run another.

So tech path Superconductors - medicine - (adopt Free Market/sids sushi when able to do it without anarchy) - AL - Indust - Steel - RR. Note lot of Sushi round Stalin so the sooner the better for him

haphazard1 · Jan 2, 2011

I like the idea of getting rid of Stalin sooner rather than later, assuming we can do so safely. When I looked at the save, only two of his cities were visible and they only had very weak units (non-gunpowder). I assume his grens are in the third city?

While marines would be ideal for the amphibious assault, the non-gunpowder units can easily be taken down with what we have now and infantry should be sufficient to wipe out grens even with an amphib penalty. So I do not think we need to wait until Industrialism to wipe out Stalin -- Assembly Line and infantry should be plenty strong enough. We just need to make certain we have enough units plus a few extra for possible bad luck. Plus sufficient ships to move them all, of course -- we have a fair number of galleons running around moving settlers and such, but we might want to build a few more ships as preparation. We could include some frigates (or whatever) for bombarding defenses to improve the attack odds as well.

No shrine for our widely-spread religion.

Do we have a temple/wonders to allow a priest of two in any of our GP generating cities? I know we are planning to use GP for golden ages, but if we happened to produce a great prophet the extra gold could be quite useful.

Sleepless · Jan 2, 2011

Big big ouch but not totally unexpected after closing borders with Churchill. He went to cautious and has just declared on us!!! As soon as I closed borders I knew I should have tried to beg 1 gold before hand but didn't think of it. Don't think it would have worked either but that would have given us a ten turn peace deal. Something to remember in future.

I had started moving a few troops towards him before hand and banked some cash for emergency upgrades if we needed them. My suggestion on how to deal with him is:

Change tech towards AL. We have enough cash to run at 100% science. Change to Nationalism and draft from our cities near his SOD. That will give us enough troops to hold and once we have Inf kick his butt a bit. Or a lot.

Downside we will lose the bureacracy bonus from capital so that might add an extra turn to AL not sure. We could also change to Theo for better drafted/built troops especially as alot of our cities don't have barracks? Also possibly go into slavery as we can put a turn in to rifles then whip.

Spoiler :

As an extra we have a GA in Paris. To run the next Golden Age if I move the next GP from Capital near Paris or use the GE if we get an artist and once its near Paris as we can get will it use those 2 rather than the Merchant in Capital? Can get next GP in 2 turns so we can stay in a Golden Age.

ianw1610 · Jan 2, 2011

His stack of doom is painful to look at... Unpromoted Redcoats have strength 17.5 against Gunpowder and Mounted units right?! Ouch!!! (and Churchill's Redcoats are heavily promoted)...

If we get an Engineer or a Scientist next, I'd pair with the Artist for a Golden Age. If we get a Prophet, build the Shrine. I wouldn't use our existing Engineer in the pair, as we need it for Mining Inc, and we can't be certain to generate another one (the extension of the Golden Age can always wait a few turns)......

SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits

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