SGOTM 13 - ChokoMisfits

I have limited experience with tiny island starts to confirm or refute haphazards experiences. Can anybody else weigh in on this?

We know the AI have plenty of land. Just not us early on so plenty of hammers from whipping are our only real option till we expand. The reasons I'm not keen settling on the corn are:

a. Capital loses out on a potential 5 food. 2 from corn and 3 from l/house clam.
b. No second city on island.

Well I've tried both CoL and Currency from Oracle and not over keen on either (currency due to the math requirement) so agree MC would be the one to go for.

What we do have to remember is the AI with the GLh will have a huge boost early on. Especially as they probably settle the GM.

Guess it won't be close to us either for attacking. :)

So with the limited information we have. Our early aims should be.

Sip. Aim for MC from Oracle. Explore and if possible make sure we get the +1 navigation bonus.
 
OK, it looks like we have general agreement on settle in place, tech Fishing while working corn, stop when the borders pop to assess the new map info.

The remaining open question is what to build during those initial turns. A warrior will have to be finished after the first WB to avoid hammer decay, and this will delay the following build (second WB or worker?) by 3 turns. A barracks will allow us to maximize our early growth path (WB or worker), but will start to decay by T60 (50 turns after we stop working on it). It will make a good target for a 2-pop whip by that time, with overflow going into a WB, a lighthouse, or whatever.

The warrior delays by 3 turns on our early growth path, but will be useful as garrison for our 2nd city.
The barracks avoids the early delay, but will need to be finished (likely whipped for overflow) by T60, when we might be busy with other priorities.

Third alternative is to build whatever, and just let the hammers decay. I am not entirely happy with this, as the earliest hammers we ever get ought to be useful for something. :( But it is a possible choice.

I favor the barracks, with the idea that we whip it before T60 with overflow for something we need (maybe an exploration WB?). We will probably want the barracks eventually when we start building military, it provides a small Power rating boost, and it seems the least-useless of our choices.

Let me know what you think. If everyone agrees, I will plan to play through the border pop later tonight (about 8 hours from now) and then upload the save for further discussion. If we are lucky, there are some more resources for the second city hidden in the fog. :please:
 
Yep I would go for barracks. Possibility they'll be wasted but we don't want to be building a warrior instead of a worker/settler/wb etc. Good luck with the turns though not alot can go wrong. I'd probably play till fishing is in though.
 
Honestly, I think the hammers will be "essetially" wasted no matter what you do with them.

Warrior: By skipping three turns of workboat, we lose +6F in three turns. If we delay worker, we lose +6F from the corn being improved three turns later. The warrior will not be needed until Orleans is approaching its happy cap, which will possibly come around 1400 BC at the earliest (Unless heavy whipping.)

Barracks: Will we delay a lighthouse or exploration workboat to whip the barracks? There will be either loss of food or strategic benefit (best city sites, possibly continental; meeting the AI) from delaying these. The barracks will not really be needed until well into AD years.

Waste due to decay. We are talking 9 hammers. I don't want to trade those hammers for early food, which mean an earlier chance to work PHF or mines. I think we can lose more trying to avoid losing these hammers.

Build a warrior for nine turns, and let the hammers be lost to decay until we are ready to finish the warrior.
I think we should build a warrior for nine turns. After we switch to a workboat, take if off the build queue so we don't revert to finishing it when we don't want to. Then finish the warrior sometime after we build the Orleans settler. Possibly, even after WB three or four, or the lighthouse. If we have any of the nine original hammers left, great!
 
Build a warrior for nine turns, and let the hammers be lost to decay until we are ready to finish the warrior.
I think we should build a warrior for nine turns. After we switch to a workboat, take if off the build queue so we don't revert to finishing it when we don't want to. Then finish the warrior sometime after we build the Orleans settler. Possibly, even after WB three or four, or the lighthouse. If we have any of the nine original hammers left, great!

We're putting 10 Hammers into either a Warrior or Barracks 1 Hpt for 10 turns. I tend to agree with shulec that we may never get a good bang for these 10 Hammers, so if necessary let's just write them off as the price to grow to Population 2 while completing Fishing.

It may be better to build a Warrior while growing the first 10. As shulec suggests, if we complete the Warrior near the time of the 1st Settler build (maybe before to reduce decay) and any Hammers are still left that is the best we can hope for. If finishing the Warrior just before our 1st Settler build allows another Population growth, that will help make the Settler build faster though it will emerge a few turns later. The extra Population and working Citizen can be a huge boost. (Frankly, I think our first Settler build should start no sooner than Population 3 or even 4; Whipping our 1st Settler would be ideal in my opinion, but probably not possible as soon as we would like.)

Also, shulec might be right about not really needing Barracks until the ADs, but I'd like to think we can be ready for our first battles by 1000 BC. That is primarily dependent on where Iron is when we complete Iron Working. We will probably need Iron Working to connect Iron to build Axemen and Spearmen who would normally just require Copper.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Yep I would go for barracks. Possibility they'll be wasted but we don't want to be building a warrior instead of a worker/settler/wb etc. Good luck with the turns though not alot can go wrong. I'd probably play till fishing is in though.

Let's not rush the beginning of our game. It's what will make or break our chances of a first place win.

I prefer to stop at Cultural Boundary 2 (BFC pop) or earlier if the map is different than we expected. I'd like us to do some more game testing after our Warrior completely explores our island. We probably want to see the SE end of our island first, then go north, in case there's more up there to explore than we expected. Would be nice to see the full BFC of our second City site ASAP.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Well, we have a couple votes for barracks (Sleepless and I) and a couple for warrior (shulec and Sun Tzu Wu). Although shulec really thinks it doesn't matter as the hammers will just decay.

shulec is probably right. But I will go for the barracks, since it will decay later. The hammers will probably still be lost, but there is at least some chance -- if rather small -- that we will finish the barracks before the hammers decay. I do not see any chance of finishing the warrior before the hammers are lost.

Off to play some turns, will stop when the capital's borders pop. The warrior will be moved to check the SE city site first, then up to the north to see whatever is there to see. If anything really unexpected happens (contact with an AI, etc.) I will stop immediately.
 
OK, 8 turns played to pop the borders...and we have some interesting stuff! :D



Marble and stone are available on islands nearby. :D And the second city site has fish in the BFC! :woohoo:

Some of the nearby islands are a bit bigger than expected, and have some hammer potential from hills or forests. More exploration is needed, but so far this is looking very promising. :)

Save is uploaded for your detailed examination. Session turn log (for completeness only, no surprises here):

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 4000 BC to 3800 BC:

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Paris has been founded.

Turn 7, 3825 BC: The borders of Paris are about to expand.
Turn 7, 3825 BC: The borders of Paris have expanded!
 
OK, a couple more thoughts based on minor info:

- There appear to be 933 land tiles on the map. Total tiles is of course unknown at this time. Once we have our second city out we can try to determine some things from the distance maintenance and get an idea of the height/width of the map.

- We appear to have 2 cultural AI opponents, possibly 3 if the AI owning the Great Lighthouse is cultural. (Given the rival best GNP of 24 (6 from the GL's culture per turn), this is possible but not certain.) I base this on two AI capitals being ahead of us on the greatest cities list; we should be winning any ties (or losing them, but that would put us off the top 5).

- Rival best Power rating is 14k, worst 11k, average 12.667k. So for 6 AIs that is 76k total. The odd figure here is the worst rating at 11k; my understanding is that Emperor AIs start with Hunting (2k) and Archery (6k) techs, plus 2 archers (2k each) for a total of 12k. Hmmm. :confused: Maybe the civs which would have Hunting anyway get an archer and a scout? Need to check this against the test save, see what units the AIs all started with. But it looks like maybe the map-maker changed the AI's starting units?

Just minor stuff, but I can't stop myself from digging for clues in what little data we have. :lol:
 
Marble, Stone, Fish, Crab, Copper?

If we want Stone soon, we may need to settle on it, since our 2nd City site will preclude city sites adjacent to Stone; 1N + 2E of Stone appears to be water (thus no city site).

Nearby Marble and Stone makes almost any Great Wonder with a Stone or Marble Hammer multiplier possible to build. Mining -> Bronze Working is even more enticing with the possibility of nearby Copper (presumably added by the scenario designer).

Fish and Crab ensures us all three Seafood. We shall be Healthy and a Harbor will provide more Health and Commerce.

Exploration?

We should try to send out a Work Boat ASAP, probably after 2 Work Boats for the first two Clam. A third Work Boat can explore north and/or south or spiral around our Capital?

We also need to decide when to send our circling globe pair of Work Boats seek out the AI's lands and beyond. I'd say early as responsibly possible for trading advantages.

Commerce, Commerce, Commerce!

I believe we must dominate all AIs in Commerce, even the one with The Great Lighthouse.

Technology path:

After Fishing, Pottery looks good with all the discounts and that leads to Writing, but ...

Mining -> Bronze Working seems to be the obvious next two Technologies, since we need Mines, Chopping and Slavery plus Copper would be a nice boost. Pottery could follow to build our whipping Granary, usually my first target for the whip, since it allows our Population to grow back nearly twice as fast. Following by Sailing, Mysticism, and maybe Writing. Are there other Technologies we should consider, like Masonry for The Pyramids; it would be tough to beat the AI even without Stone, but might be worth testing.

EDIT: We probably should focus on getting Marble connected (Masonry). I would favor settling on Marble (third city) for instant connection and that city could at least share the Capital's Clam for growth. We could build The Oracle so much that way in our second city.


Precise whipping?

We can whip Settlers with with just 1-2 turns of initial building, 3 Pop whip (3 x 45H = 135H). With a Granary, how long does it take to regrow to Population 6? Do we grow to Population 8 (beyond Happiness Cap) to 4 Pop whip and get up to 44H overflow into the next build. It is even possible to use whipping overflow to quickly build Great Wonders like The Colossus or even The Pyramids with Stone connected. Something to think about. Haphazard whipping will not do; we need very precise and measured whipping and probably build swapping with a Great Wonder to win 1st place.

More game testing?

haphazard1, can you please update your test game with the new real game data? We need to consider the new possibilities and maybe do some more game testing.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Marble, Stone, Fish, Crab, Copper?

If we want Stone soon, we may need to settle on it, since our 2nd City site will preclude city sites adjacent to Stone; 1N + 2E of Stone appears to be water (thus no city site).

We need some WorldBuilder testing, but we may be able to settle adjacent to the stone. The usual 3-tile spacing rule does not always apply if the two cities are separated by water. But I am not 100% certain of the exact rules, so we will need to do some testing.

Note that the stone is on a grass hill -- this normally does not happen on non-edited maps (except maybe Fantasy lands). So it would not be a 3 hammer city center tile. :( (Probably intentional.) We might want to settle on it anyway to avoid the worker turns to build a quarry, but we will have to run some tests.

Nearby Marble and Stone makes almost any Great Wonder with a Stone or Marble Hammer multiplier possible to build. Mining -> Bronze Working is even more enticing with the possibility of nearby Copper (presumably added by the scenario designer).

Fish and Crab ensures us all three Seafood. We shall be Healthy and a Harbor will provide more Health and Commerce.

The seafood health will be very welcome. The fish especially will be excellent for the second city, with its higher food value. This should accelerate our development plans, as the second city will now grow much faster. We will need to fit a WB into our build queues for it, but it will be well worth it. :)

Exploration?

We should try to send out a Work Boat ASAP, probably after 2 Work Boats for the first two Clam. A third Work Boat can explore north and/or south or spiral around our Capital?

We also need to decide when to send our circling globe pair of Work Boats seek out the AI's lands and beyond. I'd say early as responsibly possible for trading advantages.

I agree we need exploration early. In several of my test games I was able to get some local exploration around the capital with the third WB, as I did not actually need the third clam tile for an extra 5-7 turns. This depends on build orders of course, but even a few extra turns can be enough for the WB to circle an island.

For the circumnavigation WBs, as early as we can spare them is best. This will probably have to be after 3 WBs (2 for capital, one for second city) and maybe even 4 WBs (third clam at capital). More testing needed.

Technology path:

After Fishing, Pottery looks good with all the discounts and that leads to Writing, but ...

Mining -> Bronze Working seems to be the obvious next two Technologies, since we need Mines, Chopping and Slavery plus Copper would be a nice boost. Pottery could follow to build our whipping Granary, usually my first target for the whip, since it allows our Population to grow back nearly twice as fast. Following by Sailing, Mysticism, and maybe Writing. Are there other Technologies we should consider, like Masonry for The Pyramids; it would be tough to beat the AI even without Stone, but might be worth testing.

Our tech path definitely needs some thought. I favor Mining/BW after Fishing, as we will need the whip to build anything large -- galleys, granaries, etc. Whipping is also very useful for early improvements at the second city -- a monument (needed to pop borders for the fish) and lighthouse can be 1-pop whipped quickly, with plenty of time for the whip anger to wear off as the city grows. Monument in the second city means Mysticism fairly early, plus we can not leave the Oracle too late.

EDIT: We probably should focus on getting Marble connected (Masonry). I would favor settling on Marble (third city) for instant connection and that city could at least share the Capital's Clam for growth. We could build The Oracle so much that way in our second city.

I am skeptical that we can get a third city down on the marble in time to help with the Oracle. We would need a galley plus a second settler, which is quite a lot of hammers. Plus we would need Masonry for the marble itself, even if we settle on it.

Precise whipping?

We can whip Settlers with with just 1-2 turns of initial building, 3 Pop whip (3 x 45H = 135H). With a Granary, how long does it take to regrow to Population 6? Do we grow to Population 8 (beyond Happiness Cap) to 4 Pop whip and get up to 44H overflow into the next build. It is even possible to use whipping overflow to quickly build Great Wonders like The Colossus or even The Pyramids with Stone connected. Something to think about. Haphazard whipping will not do; we need very precise and measured whipping and probably build swapping with a Great Wonder to win 1st place.

I agree that carefully planned whipping will be needed to control overflow. As you noted, using overflow allows whipping to contribute to wonder production without the usual penalty. But we need to watch our happy cap carefully -- so far we have not seen any happiness resources. Our charismatic monuments will help, but hopefully we can find some luxuries somewhere.

More game testing?

haphazard1, can you please update your test game with the new real game data? We need to consider the new possibilities and maybe do some more game testing.

I will try to update the test map tomorrow. The additional information adds a lot of possibilities to our planning.
 
I want to carefully consider every wonder build attempt we make. I do not want to deviate our tech path or settling to try to grab at wonders that are not essential. I certainly like building wonders for fail gold. I almost wonder if these resources are put here as more of a distraction than to help us out.

I certainly agree that we need to prioritize getting the oracle and colossus.

I think we need to check out the marble and stone islands ASAP to see if either has excess food and hammers to support Wonder building. If so, Orleans should not be settled on the home island.
 
I want to carefully consider every wonder build attempt we make. I do not want to deviate our tech path or settling to try to grab at wonders that are not essential. I certainly like building wonders for fail gold. I almost wonder if these resources are put here as more of a distraction than to help us out.

I had put mostly the same regarding wonder distractions before the site went down and lost my post. The aim is domination/conquest. Let the AI build them for us. We can always gift/sell resources to help them on our way. Let them build wonders instead of resources

What we do need to ensure we find is a strategic resource. Ivory/Pults would be great wouldn't need anything more so not really worried about AI out teching us. Emperor level enough troops (lots of suicide cats) would be enough to see us home early without to much problem. Lots of production more than commerce plus we'll get lots of gold from capturing cities. :)

The difference is if we need Astro although we can look at that later. Probably bulb towrds Lib would be quickest.

I still like the idea of a second city on the island for 2 reasons.

a. It has the fish it can use as its own food.

b. We don't need a galley to settle.

Played around a little bit with worker size 2. Settler size 3. Build galley/wbs in Paris whilst growing. Settled 3rd city on marble with masonry circa 1500BC. Oracle about 1275BC.

Note Mids were built in 1500BC this game. So big possibility of early wonders going well early.
 
We need some WorldBuilder testing, but we may be able to settle adjacent to the stone. The usual 3-tile spacing rule does not always apply if the two cities are separated by water. But I am not 100% certain of the exact rules, so we will need to do some testing.

I think this is right, if you are on a different land mass the 3 tile rule doesn't count.

Intriguing having stone and marble but they may just be a distraction. As Sleepless says, we need to win by domination so this should be our focus, wonders may help but we need to be careful...
 
Yep put that in my lost post you can settle 2 tiles away if there is water inbetween. ie sw - w of Paris would support a city
 
I want to carefully consider every wonder build attempt we make. I do not want to deviate our tech path or settling to try to grab at wonders that are not essential. I certainly like building wonders for fail gold. I almost wonder if these resources are put here as more of a distraction than to help us out.

I certainly agree that we need to prioritize getting the oracle and colossus.

I think we need to check out the marble and stone islands ASAP to see if either has excess food and hammers to support Wonder building. If so, Orleans should not be settled on the home island.

shulec, you are right. I didn't mean we should build more than one Great Wonder. I just meant we have more viable options for building a Great Wonder with both Stone and Marble accessible via Ports. Of course building Great Wonders for Failure Wealth is a great way to finance our early economy.

Yes, The Colossus is still our best Great Wonder build, even if we can't connect Copper in time to help build it. Getting an extra Commerce per Water tile Civ wide seems worth the price as long as we can continue to REX.

Our main focus must remain Domination. Conquest is likely to be much more difficult to achieve.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I agree with Sleepless on still liking the idea of settling city #2 on the home island as planned. Doing so allows us to get the second city early -- considerably earlier then we can get a galley built and a settler for a city elsewhere. Plus the fish resource will make city #2 even stronger, at least once we get a monument up and expand borders. A whipped monument should be the first build in city #2.

The marble and stone will definitely have value for us, but we should not allow them to distract us from our goals. Rapid early expansion, preferably grabbing some military resources and some luxuries, should be our early target. It will boost our economy and production potential, and whatever land we can claim early is land we do not have to take from an AI later.

But the stone and marble will be very handy. With stone we can plan for an early Moai city without spending a fortune in hammers to build it, and Oxford will be half priced later. Marble will boost our Heroic and National epics once we decide where to build them. And maybe we will find time/hammers for a world wonder or two as well.

For your testing and planning enjoyment :D, I have updated the test map to reflect our new knowledge of the world. This version is currently at turn 8, and is as close a match as I could manage. If you spot anything off, please let me know so it can be corrected. There might be small differences with coast vs ocean in a couple places -- I did not check every visible water tile for evidence of land just out of sight.

Also, note that the total land available on the test map is considerably larger than the real map: 1312 total land tiles vs. 933 (35-40% more total land tiles). The test map is a Big-n-Small, standard size, average sea level. My first thoughts are that the real map is either smaller than Standard, or is using high sea level. We can try to determine more once we have a second city out, as distance maintenance can be used to get a general idea of the overall map dimensions. But the total land tiles is something to keep in mind as a significant difference from the real map.
 

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Thanks for the updated test map haphazard1.

Out for a few drinks/meal today so don't expect I'll be at my best to play optimally tonight. :)

Saying that we should plan on the best time for the worker/settler and what tech path.

We do need some exploring workboats out as well quite early. I am having a problem fitting a granary into Paris early as well. It needs to build a workboats, worker, settler, lighthouse, galley, settler (prob an idea to look at part building second settler whilst whip unhappy then using overflow from galley to finish settler). Of course a galley is able to explore our current position as well.

So many decisions. :)
 
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