The Sword of Osman

Worker was unguarded cos I knew there were no barbs around except dead ones.

So Oracle completes as soon as we get mono?

Hopefully we not rushing axes before we have barracks. Have we got a barracks in Istanbul?

Really good turnset.

One that we've made ... Writing is a pre-requisite for Theology. I'm sorry - I've just noticed this myself.

Paradigm Shifter ... I personally don't think that we have time to build a Barracks. It's already 1000BC and our stack's not complete or in position. If we were Aggressive and could give them Cover promotions with the +2XP from a Barracks, I'd probably go for it, but I'd rather have an extra 1.5 Axes than the opportunity to produce 2XP Combat I or CR I units out of Istanbul.

To make matters worse ...



... we are going to need to mix in some Spears to our stacks.

OK so in terms of tech'; we need to bee-line Writing, and in terms of production we need to build a couple of Spears to mix in with our Axes. Basically though, production to be; unit builds.

What should we do with the Settler in the meantime? We've got a really food-poor spot in Oasis-Stone in the south east, or Gold along the north west river, or we can just leave him sleeping.

In terms of invasion, I'm thinking of the Wheat-Spices south of our Sugars first.

I'm happy to hear everyone's thoughts, and hoping to play in 24 hours.

ParadigmShifter said:

Worker was unguarded cos I knew there were no barbs around except dead ones.

Click to expand...

I spotted that. Didn't mean to insinuate anything negative

What's you guys' thoughts on postponing Oracle until we get Writing? I'm nervous on account of the fact that two other buttholes have Marble and we don't....

On the plus side we will get loads of cash (at least some) if we fail but, keeping with variant, I really wanna get Theo before GPr...

For my money, we have to go for it. I think it was hardly a no-risk approach from the outset, but it's 1000BC and we need Divine Right by 620AD.

So holding off on Oracle until we have writing in the bag? How many turns away is it, Cam? You know?

EDIT: I haven't re-checked my save cause my disk is at work but I'm extremely nervous of losing Oracle... Just so everyone knows ;(

If we delete a few Warriors we run 90% - 100% and with a focus only on tiles, we can possibly bring it back by a couple of turns.

I'm not that confident myself, but we'll give it a shot, unless we're happy to go with Metal Casting or something like that.

In hindsight, there was no need to get Meditation so early ... I was more preoccupied with the Great Prophet bulb than the Theology slingshot.

This certainly puts our war plans a little on hold due to the cost of the army and the need to generate to get Writing asap.

Yeah I wondered why we were researching meditation when really we only needed poly.

I think we are going to lose the Oracle...

As I see it, we have 2 choices;

Grab the Oracle in Irdine and manually tech what we need to beeline DR.

OR, Shoot as hard as we can to get Writ in time and possibly use funds from failed Oracle to upgrade Warriors and continue to War straight away.

I feel a little disappointed if we do lose Oracle BUT it could be worth it if we can take out one of our opponents. Other thing, without Oracle, it's going to take a while to get a GPr to assist with bulbing DR while we will be losing speed re teching against the AI.

Duplicate post, server issues...

Do you have a preference?

I think Writing will take around 7 turns (sorry - I'm away from my computer), but as you note, it'll be increasingly unlikely that we'll get it given that religious tech' are obviously quite well known, and we have two AIs in much better positions than we were/are to get this fairly popular Wonder built. It'd be handy if one of the AIs gets Alphabet and is prepared to trade us Writing, but I'm not sure that we've got too many 'trading chips' ourselves to hand back in return.

On 'Plan B' : Unfortunately right now I can't tell how many turns it would take to bulb two Great Prophets if we can get some religion into our cities and build some Temples to run Priests, but I suspect they'll be tough to get before we hit our deadline. Maybe slow-tech'ing Theology, trading for Monarchy, and bulbing one Great Prophet from running Priest(s) for a big slab of Divine Right might be within the bounds. I am admittedly concerned that without The Oracle slingshot that we'll run out of time.

If we don't build Oracle now, I'm convinced we are going to lose it. Finishing it and then carrying on with our army is probably best IMO. That way we also get our hands on a free tech (duh!). The GPr that will pop thanks to Oracle points usually doesn't take too long, esp if we hire a priest. I vote we do it, choose the best tech from Oracle that we can use now and go to war.

Well, the choice I see is Metal Casting (most expensive tech') versus Monarchy (pre-req for Divine Right). Typically I'd choose Metal Casting and back-trade at some point for Monarchy, although at the rate things are going, we can't bank on anything much going right, including the AI's willingness to trade us a tech' we need!

FiveRings? Are you still with us?

I've recorded this turnset, and will upload on YouTube soon-ish.

In short, took Metal Casting from The Oracle, settled a 'bold' city near both Egypt and Mongolia to claim the riverside Gold upstream, and started the war versus Mongolia.

We've taken a minor city (Beskbalik) with some casualties, and have a SoD of 10 units (mix of Axes and Spears) parked outside the Mongol capital (Karakorum), which has 5 Archers and a Chariot ... we have a couple of Axes a couple of movement turns away from the stack. I give us about a 40% chance of taking the city if we went for it now, but would like to defer to the roster on what to do.

Some screenshots in the meantime;

Had a brief, quick look at the save. Even more marble to the West!!! AWESOME!! Now, to help me understand a little better, can you elaborate why you vote no on the Mansa trade? I know he is a tech whore but still, that's a fair enough trade, don't you think?

In other opinions, it looks like there is another city to the West that requires our swift hand of destruction if we are going to wipe Kublai off the face of our Earth. What are your thoughts on the feasibility of this?

woopdeedoo,

Thanks for looking at the save. I'm struggling with YouTube, but I'll try to get a report done, be it by video or 'text + graphics'!

If Mansa was prepared to throw Alphabet into negotiations, maybe we could at least look at it, however I have two thoughts;


As for Kublai - it looks to me like a border-line proposition if we can take Karakorum with our SoD there, but unless we tear through his defences and have 'say' half a dozen surviving units, we might need to settle for peace and refocus on the game variants for a while.

Yes, I am here, but still not WITH you, as I was away from my computer and internet for three days - and hoped you won't go forward so fast....
I have read thru the thread, I see Cam's question there - thank you for asking, Cam! - and I am saying with this post: yes, I'll take my turns, but I'd like to have a careful look at Cam's save at least - I would have looked at W's too, but if you insist on the three-day rule, then I'll have to make a shortcut.
So that I don't forget it, though, I'd like to ask Cam what was the reasoning behind identifying Ram as Industrious - I am in this game to learn, guys, sorry if this is a stupid question!
Well, I'd also consider it very important to ask whether you look at the game as something you HAVE to win or you can take a loss well. I see from your comments I have made quite a few mistakes and don't want to place you in the situation where you fail because of me AND regret it. I can very well leave it to you only to crush them all... I have learnt at least two important things from the game so far, no: three, actually: (1) you have to cut off slack, no matter how you have played and loved to play before; (2) the big overflow cum low starting hammers trick, (3) I need to get winning quite a lot at the level where I enter a game like this one, before I actually enter it.
Anyway, if there's a single one among you, even, who won't live thru having a hard game or even losing it because of me, now is the time to let me know. I don't like losing myself, so I'll understand and won't take it badly at all.

"Losing"? Who said anything about losing???

Take your turns when you're ready. I just wasn't sure if you've dropped out, but pleased that you've posted.

The variant rules are a bit more difficult than I anticipated I must admit (on the basis of our start, I thought that this game was going to be a 'total shoe-in'!), and the team mistake (of which I'm as guilty as anyone, if not more so) over our Theology slingshot hasn't helped. We're on a bit of an uphill battle to make this 'Divine Right' variant I suspect (without doing any sums), but if we get a Priest or two going in Edirne, then 'maybe' we can Great Prophet bulb our way there.

I think with this game that it was pretty well 'Axe Rush' someone or be stuck with few cities for quite a while. Under more normal circumstances we'd find four or five nice city spots rather than be jammed in by the AI with very few food friendly sites around, but really, an Axe Rush was (I believe) the right approach here. I do think that we were a bit slow in getting that together though, I must admit. Whether we can take Karakorum in the next turn or few turns is 'a coin flip' in my opinion, as going two-for-one is quite likely. If we do take this city, I think we'll be in a fair position to take on Alexander and Ramesses thanks to Catapults and War Elephants (then again, my capacity to predict the future can be a bit questionable at times).

(Ramesses II is Industrious - it's one of his two traits, regardless of which personality he has.)

Anyway, I'm still trying to upload these videos (six clips) of my turnset which may or may not be of interest. I'll include links if I can ever get them up.

As for you (FiveRings) resigning from the team for fear of letting us down or something like that ... ... even if we do happen to fall short (of which I'm hopeful we won't) I think we should 'dust ourselves off' and 'get back on the horse' with another Monarch game. We can't have you fluffing around on Prince forever, you know!

[Edit]

Eventually got the videos uploaded ... as a video playlist.

Bamboozled myself with a forest chop that I thought was a whipping error (in video 3 iirc) and contradicted myself with concerning frequency.

[/Edit]

Cam_H said:

(Ramesses II is Industrious - it's one of his two traits, regardless of which personality he has.)

[/Edit]

Click to expand...

I thought the traits are part of the personality of the leader.

Now, my understanding is that we run 0% science till we get that monastery in Ista, where we can better use the bulbs, is that correct?

I guess that we are facing the "to be or not to be" question re Kara attack. I have never attacked with less than 2.5 to 1 forces, and also never with negative odds. I see I can upgrade an ax and two spears, iirc, to CR, but this won't change much the unfavorable odds. Anyway, I attack next turn, or I place part of the soldiers on the forests that provide 4 of the 6 hammers Kara can produce, move towards Kara with the Axe that's close, and the upcoming Axe in Ed, as well as with the Spear in the conquered city.

Then I have a question for you, wizzes: does stack attack give us better chances or not? I saw Cam is attacking in singles, I always do the same - can save part of the army, if the gods are against me, you know...

Now, attack on Kara is in my turns, whether right the next one or later, so: if we take it, are we going for the next, Western town of the Khan, or trading for ceasefire, or what? Looking at the Ista monastery being built, I guess Cam's thinking about consolidation. Looks good to me - especially that I anticipate very few soldiers left after the attack on Kara, but wanted to check with you (I can still see some advantages in erazing Sal's towns that are close to us for the money of it).

Do we have some ideas about what we are gonna do if the attack on Kara fails? Or you'd prefer me to stop after that and give time for reassessment?

Please, let me know what are your thoughts, preferably within the next 8 hours.

One of four opinions on the roster ... but here goes;

I'd possibly throw 'the kitchen sink' at Karakorum ... if we take it comfortably then consider continuing the war effort, if we lose most troops then think about settling for peace, if everything dies - we won't die wondering 'what if?'. We do have a couple of Axes on the way, and they might be able to 'tip the balance'.

The Jewish Monastery in Istanbul is specifically to get a Jewish Missionary down to Edirne (although +10% doesn't hurt), which should allow Edirne to build a Jewish Temple and run a Priest to hurry our Great Prophet points. Now that Ankara has Buddhism, a Buddhist Monastery there would (a.) give it extra and (b.) allow it to build a Buddhist Missionary to spread Buddhism to Edirne so we can build a Buddhist Temple and run another Priest (we need farms though for lack of ) - so that's one for consideration.

On technology - I'm 'thinking' that we should just start on Theology, and use our bulbs on Divine Right (use Metal Casting to get Monarchy in a trade and maybe Maths {> Construction} at some later point also in a trade). It 'sort of' depends on how our war with Mongolia pans out.

I doubt if there's much difference between 'stack attack' as opposed to picking the group and going in for individual battles ... the computer will pick the best attacker and the best countering defender regardless.

Just on random personalities: The traits, the unique unit, and the unique building correspond to the 'facade' ... the behaviour is unknown. For instance, if the computer shows Julius Caesar but it's actually Isabella, then the leader will still be Rome, have access to the Praetorian and the Forum, and be Imperialistic and Organised, however the leader will behave in a manner that has a strong religious bent, keen to spread their State religion with lots of Missionaries entering nearby foreign lands in the Classical and Medieval Eras, take particular umbrage at any tribe that doesn't share its religion, and is a touch on the demanding side.

Thanks, Cam, that's very helpful! I might have missed the point on Ed temple and priest, maybe I depend too much on religion spreading by itself... I have come across references to THAT character of Isabel, but have never come across any systematic review of all leaders' characters, have you?

OK, I'm a bit scared to let the comp decide on who gets to attack - I have seen it definitely in Rome, and ould think the same applies here too, that the computer makes second-best decisions at the best - so I'll take the responsibility on myself on this. Ususally, I get the weaker cats in action first, but I go with the best unit first, so, if you have some useful tips on how to make the best out of the situ, I'd appreciate to have the opportunity to learn!
I'm waiting for W and PS to share their thoughts - and any outside advice is more than welcome, too! - before I go, and at this moment my understanding is that you favor an outright attack. Still, my guess is that my action would depend very much on what we get before acting: if there's one more archer in Kara, then I might go for the delay-cum-brinignig more troops (I have had occasions of stupid attacks from the city defenders, too, well, why not?: this is a basic principle in strategic games, I mean, to let the opponent err). If not, I'll bet it all on this one attack.
OK, so that you don't read it from my previous posting that I'm very sensitive to critique - which I am, but NOT to a well-argumented critique! - I don't mind getting references to my mistakes - I'm learning!! and I am actually thankful to be able to learn from my mistakes. This is to say: don't skip over what you think is not good in my actions, but DO let me know what you think I SHOULD have done and WHY.