ParkCungHee
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2006
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- 12,921
Someone saying, in a private interview, that homosexuality is a sin is a discriminatory activity, and is probably illegal under Swedish law?
The state of Christian fundamentalism in Sweden
- Thread starter Loppan Torkel
- Start date
Loppan Torkel
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2004
- Messages
- 4,756
Show me in what way I played a martyr. I've stated what's obvious to anyone that isn't a total bigot - Religions are judged by different scales and Christianity is the religion to criticize if you want to avoid any backlash. It's a one-sided story where most join the choir and the rest remain silent, sometimes while making vague insinuations.
Governmental support is not anything unique to the SA here in Sweden, most other religious organizations receive it as well. It's not discrimination to have a religious belief, and they, just like any other, are also rightly entitled to have rules for membership. I mean all of the Abrahamic religions states that homosexuality is a sin and Dalai Lama has stated - "From a Buddhist point of view, [gay sex] is generally considered sexual misconduct." so I guess that Buddhism joins the other too. There are many sins in the Bible, Torah and the Koran. This would be one among others.
Everyone is free to chose whether to support these organizations or not, and while some do a lot of charity, they may still be religious at the core.
Ah, I was fooled since you were replying to a post comparing racism to homophobia.
Well, for the record, I donate to various charities, none of which are religious. The last time I donated to a religious charity was last year, when I put some money in my church's collection bag (on the roughly once-annual occasion I still attend church). I didn't become less religious on realising the homophobic undercurrent in my church, but I felt more justified in becoming less so.
Ingvina Freyr
wants a Steamfree option
Yes, I wanted you to explain yourself, because if you are going for personal attacks then you should at least have the guts to do it openly and not hide behind insinuations.
So, you've formed a judgment on me based on one other thread in an off-topic discussion forum?
I better refrain from discussing any lighter issues in the future then. I mean if having a favourite beer or plans for the summer is not something serious people should have. I knew the people behind "Kalla Fakta" value themselves highly, but reading between the lines it seems you do too just for watching the show. But stating already known facts calling it news is not investigative journalism, it's sensationalism. You should spend your time better, try turning off the TV completely.
aelf
Ashen One
Because Christianity is the 'turn the other cheek' religion. You don't get to act morally superior about that and bleat about persecution at the same time.
Brian Shanahan said:
No it doesn't. I'm not arguing that gays aren't being discriminated against, I'm just arguing that making the claim that one group or another isn't being persecuted because some dood isn't being fed to the lions in Diocletians freaking Rome is kind of ******ed. Obviously, the 'queers' aren't being persecuted because they aren't having hot pokers shoved up their arses or something. They should be grateful that we've extended our protection to their lives. See what I've done there?
Brian Shanahan said:
Some members of the SA in a private conversation revealed that they thought that homosexuality was a sin, and that God could help homosexuals. Big freaking whop.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
In the countries with hate speech laws, is it tolerated to openly discriminate against gays?
Brian Shanahan
Permanoob
No the fact that the SA had anti-gay practices written into their rule book is probably against Swedish law, and if not it should be.
Brian Shanahan
Permanoob
Did you even read the article, specifically about the ethics document issued in 1996 containing homophobic edicts? It's not about a few private beliefs. It is about a whole organisation run and orgainised in such a manner as to deliberately discriminate against a whole section of society.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
GhostWriter16
Deity
The Salvation Army is a Christian Organization, and so is simply following the Bible. What you are suggesting is a form of religious persecution.
Ajidica
High Quality Person
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2006
- Messages
- 22,204
I understand it doesn't apply to Sweden, but look at Reynolds v. US. The government is under no obligation to respect religous beliefs if it conflicts with a law. (Case upheld the banning of polygamy)
Brian Shanahan
Permanoob
And what's worse is that people are now swallowing that bunch of tripe (actual packet and tripe is supposed to be tasty but I digress), and are now coming on here defending the organisation, saying that it's the private view of a few members.
Gah, sometimes I hate it when my pessimism about the lack of intelligence of this species is amply demonstrated.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
I love this discussion as it firmly puts Christianity where it belongs. Historically the only reason Homosexuality has been barely mentioned for much of the history of Europe is due to the Christianised affect that has caused it to remain a footnote.
Moderator Action: I had to start somewhere...
/facepalm
Ok, we get a LOT of complaints about problems in OT w/ posters, behavior, etc.... a lot of complaints that we do nothing or why do we let "so and so" go on and on.
This thread is a great example of a lot of the dysfunction. I avoided it because I had a hunch I wouldn't like what I would see. BUT, someone had to go and report a post and in investigating that 1 post I spent ~ 40 minutes going through this, writing this missive, etc...
So, what's wrong here? TBH, there isn't one out and out horrific post. But there is a string of semi-nasty, snide, sarcastic back-and-forth comments. So, what do I do? Infract them all? Split them off? Because I have a life to get back to I end up, in this case, raising my hands in surrender and just locking the thread.
We end up w/ a bunch of rude post, people who are chippy with each other and several staff who spend precious time having to deal w/ people who can't just be a bit more mature. And, in the end, it hurts us all. The forum suffers due to people treating each other like crap. The staff sighs a little and loses a little bit of enthusiasm. Decent posters are turned off.
Etc....
I don't have an answer but I have some suggestions:
1. Don't create threads with openings that are baited. Snarky titles or heavily tilted editorial or OP are indicative of someone intentionally looking to antagonize. Actually th title of this thread was OK, but it seemed clear after a while what the OP was after.
2. Don't "rain on the parade". If you don't like a thread or a topic, don't post just to indicate how much you think it sucks or warrants your mockery or to argue w/ Poster X who you love to argue with. Just leave it. Having read through this stuff, I can easily say I came up w/ many, many snide comments I'd of love to fired off. But, I made a choice to avoid it.
3. Don't threadjack. If you see you and another poster have 6 posts in a row, its time to take a break from the thread.
4. How many of you have the capacity to LET IT GO? To be the bigger person? Guess what, you're probably not going change someone's views on homosexuality or the SA in Sweden by upping the ante of snark in your retort.
I realize these aren't rules and I can't compel you to follow them. But if, you do give a rat's about this place, spend some time looking in the mirror.
Anyway, I support the Salvation Army - one of the few bastions of decency in the corrupt deMOCKratic We$t, for daring to stand against the oppressive totalitarian hedonist We$tern society. However, the Old Europe is dying now, and soon all the last vestiges of Medieval decency - for only in the Middle Ages Western Europe was at least somewhat decent - will be swept by the corporate $$$ "culture" and Muslim immigration
/sigh
/facepalm
Ok, we get a LOT of complaints about problems in OT w/ posters, behavior, etc.... a lot of complaints that we do nothing or why do we let "so and so" go on and on.
This thread is a great example of a lot of the dysfunction. I avoided it because I had a hunch I wouldn't like what I would see. BUT, someone had to go and report a post and in investigating that 1 post I spent ~ 40 minutes going through this, writing this missive, etc...
So, what's wrong here? TBH, there isn't one out and out horrific post. But there is a string of semi-nasty, snide, sarcastic back-and-forth comments. So, what do I do? Infract them all? Split them off? Because I have a life to get back to I end up, in this case, raising my hands in surrender and just locking the thread.
We end up w/ a bunch of rude post, people who are chippy with each other and several staff who spend precious time having to deal w/ people who can't just be a bit more mature. And, in the end, it hurts us all. The forum suffers due to people treating each other like crap. The staff sighs a little and loses a little bit of enthusiasm. Decent posters are turned off.
Etc....
I don't have an answer but I have some suggestions:
1. Don't create threads with openings that are baited. Snarky titles or heavily tilted editorial or OP are indicative of someone intentionally looking to antagonize. Actually th title of this thread was OK, but it seemed clear after a while what the OP was after.
2. Don't "rain on the parade". If you don't like a thread or a topic, don't post just to indicate how much you think it sucks or warrants your mockery or to argue w/ Poster X who you love to argue with. Just leave it. Having read through this stuff, I can easily say I came up w/ many, many snide comments I'd of love to fired off. But, I made a choice to avoid it.
3. Don't threadjack. If you see you and another poster have 6 posts in a row, its time to take a break from the thread.
4. How many of you have the capacity to LET IT GO? To be the bigger person? Guess what, you're probably not going change someone's views on homosexuality or the SA in Sweden by upping the ante of snark in your retort.
I realize these aren't rules and I can't compel you to follow them. But if, you do give a rat's about this place, spend some time looking in the mirror.
Moderator Action: Okay, we've had our timeout. People can continue the discussion, but no more low-quality posting
timtofly
One Day
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 9,445
I have one question. Can someone be anti-philosophy? If a group of people have peacefully had the same philosophy for 150 years does that make it wrong? Why is it just in the last 20 years have people spoken out against it? Why did no one challenge and prevail 150 years ago? Now you may not like this philosophy, but one may form their own group and establish their own philosophy and "discriminate" whomever. There are plenty of other groups that do have the same philosophy as said discriminated group, so why single out and "attack" one group that does not?
Brian Shanahan
Permanoob
Both moralities and philosophies change over time, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse. But in the specific case of tolerance of other sexualities, over the last 150 years we have improved immensly in general morality. However most of this has been very recent and as a result there is still an undercurrent which is trying to drag us back down to the dark ages on this issue.
Oh and you'll find that I attack (and hard) any person or organisation which is involved in discrimination whether it'd be that I'd otherwise support or abhor their aims. This is something which is non-negotiable, you cannot discriminate against others, if you wish to be part of any civilised society.
As Bonhoeffer said:
First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.
point being that if you do not stand up for the rights of others, you'll find that pretty soon you'll be the one carted off to the KZ.
Ingvina Freyr
wants a Steamfree option
So why not stand up for the SA:s right to a different opinion?
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