Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

No, that not.
But it add more leader and with the Culture update Nations are nothing more then Names.
All that remains important is the Traits from the leader and what base Culture you get.
 
@Koshling,
Savegame as requested.

Something else that I noticed when I went into WB, Those AI with FB seem to accrue Culture at a faster rate than the AI and me with Republic or better.

This poses the question, Does Afforess have two or more separate Culture rates in place?

Some of the AI cities with FB had 10s of thousands of Culture points will my cities only had hundreds or a few thousand even though I have many Culture buildings and Wonders.

And the Hittite has Republic but yet the city I took acts like he has FB too.

JosEPh
 
bill2505 said:
is this http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=381219
compatible with this mod
Click to expand...

Maybe but the religions would be off.

On religions, I think they are working fine now. I still need to do some work on the obsoleting of some bits. It is the ones that obsolete that automaticaly spread to all nations. Unfortunately the AI does not make use of religions unless they found it or it is their favorite. This causes them to lag more than they should since their favorite wont appear for thousands of years into the game.

I notice Praetyre dropped Shamanism from his list. I belive he claimed that Druidism and Shamanism are the same religion but in game they represent plant based and animal based ideas. The names may not be the best.
 
With the addition of Goods, there are a ton of new items added to the Buildings list on the left side in the City view interface. This list is getting quite huge. Is there some way that list can be categorized? Maybe clicking on the "Buildings" title changes it to show only "Goods" or "Culture" etc? Not sure if that is possible.

Edit: Noticed in the SVN thread discussion of making Goods into Resources. That should address the issue I mentioned here.
 
Shamanism is excluded from the list because it is effectively a cover-all representation of primordial beliefs not specific to any culture, though the iconography certainly strongly suggests Amerindian folklore. Aboriginal, Polynesian and Maori folklore is not, to the best of my extremely limited knowledge of the subject, distinctive enough from this nature-based tradition to merit an entirely seperate religion to represent it, especially given that these religions are nonexistant outside of a single geographical culture, unlike, say, Sikhism and Judaism, which may have similarily small numbers but a significant diaspora and historical role as outsiders and ancillaries to their societies caste systems.

I do not recall stating that Druidism was identical to Shamanism. The closest statement that comes to mind is me recommending that Shamanism be available to all cultures but European ones, given Druidism is effectively Iron Age European Shamanism with the addition of a centralized clergy.

Part of what inspired me with having wonders-which-start-religions was the Planetfall (SMAC) mod, which had a wonder which, when built, caused an entirely new faction (the Cult of Planet) to take over the city in which it was built. This, along with the angelic and demonic pact technologies from FFH2, also inspired my suggestion of a "Skynet" type technology (the "super technology" of the Transhuman Era) that caused all Robotic Units to defect to a new AI faction and head on their own way, though not necessarily violently depending on how you and the other players handled the situation. I figure if you can spawn whole new factions with technologies and wonders, religions should be a cinch.

Aside: This is probably impossible to do without some serious modding, but I'd *love* (as a long term goal, mind you, there's still the Galactic Age to do) to see "cultural" techs (for instance, Polytheism, Monotheism, Literature, Philosophy, Papacy, Perspective, Impressionism, Dada, the whole "sports" line, Marxism and Fascism) paid for by :culture: rather than :science:. Would create that much more incentive to boost :culture: output, and add a real reward to it outside of Cultural Victory games. It would also be cool to see special requirements for techs like Globalization (such as contact with every player in the world and trade routes with more than half of them).
 
JosEPh_II said:
@Koshling,
Savegame as requested.

Something else that I noticed when I went into WB, Those AI with FB seem to accrue Culture at a faster rate than the AI and me with Republic or better.

This poses the question, Does Afforess have two or more separate Culture rates in place?

Some of the AI cities with FB had 10s of thousands of Culture points will my cities only had hundreds or a few thousand even though I have many Culture buildings and Wonders.

And the Hittite has Republic but yet the city I took acts like he has FB too.

JosEPh
Click to expand...

Joesph, I've taken a look at this but it turns out it's not really a good test case for fixed border changes. Reason is that almost none of your issues here are fixed-border issues (some WOULD be if there weren't pure culture issues that mean it doesn't matter anyway).

There are two areas of conflict I looked at where you have isolated cities recently captured, which I'll discuss below.

1) In the area around Kalakh, the original owner (Assyrian) retains control of a ring around your captured city. He does have fixed borders (which would indeed cause this) but in this case it would happen anyway! The reason is that the Assyrian city Arbel, to the south of Kalakh, has Influential culture. That gives it a culture range of 7. The furthest point from it in the ring around your captured city is the corner point NW of Kalakh. If you hover there you'll see that Assyrian is still the dominant culture there. Because this tile is also within the cultural influence of an Asyrian city (it's within 7 of Arbel) that means that the Assyrians get to keep it ANYWAY, regardless of fixed borders. If Arbel had two steps less cultural power then the fixed borders would indeed make the difference with reagrd to that tile, but as it is no ownership would change at all here even if the Assyrians did not have fixed borders. You are simply being out-cultured here (presumably largely because this is the Assyrian heartlands, and they have been builidng up culture there all game long). To counteract this you need to attack the high culture cities first really.

2) In the area around Kanesh a similar thing is happening. Here the opponent does not have fixed borders, but does have cultural dominance (Hattusas is influential and Akuwa is refined, either one of which would suffice to isolate Kanesh.

Culture rate depends only on buildings and civics - there are no separate rates for the AI as such. If you can point me at a specific example where you think the rate is anomolously high on that save game I'll take a look. However, I suspect this is just down to difficulty level since the AI always plays at noble (so can build stuff cheaper than the player at a higher difficukty level, and hence likely builds up cultural buildings faster).

Net of all this is:

i) This is not really a good illustration of a fixed borders issue. However, I still believe there IS a fixed border issue, but I'm still in need of a good test case before I try to change the way it operates.

ii) One could argue that there are issues with the way cultural tile ownership works, irrespective of fixed borders. For example, maybe capturing a city should cause a large local influence swing, in the same way that wining battles does, but substantially larger (and city size and/or culture level dependent). That would probably cause a lot more tiles near your border (and therefore likely bridging to the captured area) to flip, at least in non-fixed-border cases (and we could then work on the fixed border cases also).

Having realised this isn't simply a fixed borders issue (at least in your example), I'm not proposing to make any immediate changes . However I am ready to do so if someone can provide me with a good example of a fixed borders issue in the form of a save game, and (in the case of the non-fixed-borders problem) am also happy to add city-capture influence if people think I should (but that needs a wider sample of opinion first).

Feedback (most) welcome...
 
When you capture a city does it lose it's stored culture?

What happens if I get a Gov't Civic that has FB, like Fascism? Do I get my tiles back?

I always try to build culture in my cities. That said as I go into WB I see that my Culture points are nowhere near most of my neighbors. In fact as the game progress The Incan is flipping tiles 2 tiles into my borders! And I have no way to get them back because he has FB. I'm building the highest producing culture bldgs and wonders in that city and it just doesn't faze it. The only reason my city hasn't flipped to him is the 9 tile square that every city retains no matter what (which is also relatively new as this didn't used to be the case). His Capital has over 65K in Culture while my Capital barely has 20K.

I'm not a fan of FB as I prefer the original BtS way. I just wish that FB would be an Option not a feature. Just like REV, Vassal, and others. And I never use Realistic Culture either as I don't like it's mechanics. Give me back the Option to have Culture like vanilla BtS please! :please:

JosEPh :)
 
JosEPh_II said:
When you capture a city does it lose it's stored culture?

What happens if I get a Gov't Civic that has FB, like Fascism? Do I get my tiles back?

I always try to build culture in my cities. That said as I go into WB I see that my Culture points are nowhere near most of my neighbors. In fact as the game progress The Incan is flipping tiles 2 tiles into my borders! And I have no way to get them back because he has FB. I'm building the highest producing culture bldgs and wonders in that city and it just doesn't faze it. The only reason my city hasn't flipped to him is the 9 tile square that every city retains no matter what (which is also relatively new as this didn't used to be the case). His Capital has over 65K in Culture while my Capital barely has 20K.

I'm not a fan of FB as I prefer the original BtS way. I just wish that FB would be an Option not a feature. Just like REV, Vassal, and others. And I never use Realistic Culture either as I don't like it's mechanics. Give me back the Option to have Culture like vanilla BtS please! :please:

JosEPh :)
Click to expand...

You don't get your tiles back automatically, though you can take them by claiming them with military units if you have FB yourself. The point I'm making about this game (and most of what you say above) is that it's not actually FB that's doing it. If you could turn FB off it would make precisely no difference - the issue is much more one of culture generation. I'll take a look at the Incan capital to see if there is any obvious reason he has so much more culture than you and report back, but wishing for a no-FB option is clutching the wrong straw here I'm afraid as it's just not that which is causing your problems.

On your specific question about what happens when you capture a city: a city does not lose its stored culture, BUT that [a city's stored culture] ONLY governs its maximum range of cultural impact. TILES accrue culture from cities each turn and capturing a city does not reset the cultural impact that city has had on a tile up to that point, so if a tile is massively in the previous owner's culture before the capture it still will be afterwards (its just that you'll gradually start eroding it since the captured city will radiate YOUR culture to the nearby tiles from that point on, but it may take a LOOONG time for that to tip the balance). This is what my suggestion (ii) above would go some way to addressing (it would give an immediate one-off culture hit in your favour in the captured cities influence range)

Edit - a captured city DOES lose its culture, but that doesn't really change the big picture - the info above about how tiles accrue it isn't changed by this fact.

I took a look at the Incan capital and a few other cities in your game. The reason the Incan capital is so high is mostly down to him having the holy building for a religion that gives +culture for each city with the religion (your religions are all plus gold ones as far as I could see, apart from a recent capture which has not yet had time to build up). In more general terms the other differences are down to a couple of things:

1) Population - bigger cities have more specialists, and a lot of the Incan culture is currently coming from specialists
2) Civic choices - you're not getting much culture boost from your current civics. That doesn't mean they are a bad choice - obviously since you are capturing cities you are being warlike, so the big cultuer choices like Liberal, adn (especially) Pacifism wouldn't be options really
3) Your also missing an obvious booster building in your capital - a museum
 
OK, another question for someone: Why is that if i use an invisible unit it takes over one Fort, but the one next to that one i cant?

IE: In my game attached: I have an Assassin(savedgame) next to a few forts of Dutch town of Amsterdam, i can put my unit on one fort and it becomes MINE, but the one next to that one i try to make it mine and it will not convert? Move the Assassin to each close fort and you will see what happens:


Also attached, i remember someone saying that making forts extend your borders, that is definitely correct, see attached 3rd pic).
 
strategyonly said:
OK, another question for someone: Why is that if i use an invisible unit it takes over one Fort, but the one next to that one i cant?

IE: In my game attached: I have an Assassin(savedgame) next to a few forts of Dutch town of Amsterdam, i can put my unit on one fort and it becomes MINE, but the one next to that one i try to make it mine and it will not convert? Move the Assassin to each close fort and you will see what happens:


Also attached, i remember someone saying that making forts extend your borders, that is definitely correct, see attached 3rd pic).
Click to expand...

Off the top of my head I would guess it's a ZOC bug since forts have ZOCs. I'll take a look at your save game tomorrow.
 
Question for the other modders, how do you want me to get some of the stuff i am working on to you guys, without getting it to the SVN, and not have everyone else see it before putting it there, i like surprises.

I currently HAD 10 projects i was working on 6 of which have failed. Well its getting late here again, off to two hours sleep.
 
strategyonly said:
Question for the other modders, how do you want me to get some of the stuff i am working on to you guys, without getting it to the SVN, and not have everyone else see it before putting it there, i like surprises.

I currently HAD 10 projects i was working on 6 of which have failed. Well its getting late here again, off to two hours sleep.
Click to expand...

Why can't it go on the SVN? I would assume that anyone accessing our mod via the SVN would realize its the modder's version and in turn may not be complete or even make it into the release version.

Then again if you don't want it on the SVN you can always PM us with links to game font.

I just assumed the SVN was there for us to quickly share files with each other without having to post files on file hosting sites or forum attachments anymore.

EDIT: Is there a way to make the SVN "temporary" only assessable the modding team?
 
Praetyre said:
Aside: This is probably impossible to do without some serious modding, but I'd *love* (as a long term goal, mind you, there's still the Galactic Age to do) to see "cultural" techs (for instance, Polytheism, Monotheism, Literature, Philosophy, Papacy, Perspective, Impressionism, Dada, the whole "sports" line, Marxism and Fascism) paid for by :culture: rather than :science:. Would create that much more incentive to boost :culture: output, and add a real reward to it outside of Cultural Victory games. It would also be cool to see special requirements for techs like Globalization (such as contact with every player in the world and trade routes with more than half of them).
Click to expand...

I think that's a really neat idea. It makes much more sense for culture to be used to gain culture tech than by science. Seems like a very difficult mod though and as you said, maybe impossible. I'm not sure about religions being discovered from that though. But all the arts and music ones yeah.
 
Hydromancerx said:
Why can't it go on the SVN? I would assume that anyone accessing our mod via the SVN would realize its the modder's version and in turn may not be complete or even make it into the release version.

Then again if you don't want it on the SVN you can always PM us with links to game font.

I just assumed the SVN was there for us to quickly share files with each other without having to post files on file hosting sites or forum attachments anymore.

EDIT: Is there a way to make the SVN "temporary" only assessable the modding team?
Click to expand...

SVN (as hosted by Sourceforge) is readable by anyone as part of the deal with Sourceforge for free hosting.
 
Could you place add the Ability to build Seed Camp to Worker?
I ask for this because its painfull that you could do this with the Gatherer but then after you researched Sedentary Lifestyle you can't build them any more till you have researched Agriculture.
 
Vokarya said:
1. Great Doctors are hard to come by (no specialists, no advances). Could there be some advances that spawn Great Doctors? I was thinking Ancient Medicine, Medicine, and Cloning to spawn Great Docs.
Click to expand...

Hydromancerx said:
Good idea. I am not sure how that's done But I am sure someone on the team knows how.
Click to expand...

@Hydromancerx

It can be done very easily. There is a tag for it. ;)

Just change this in CIV4TechInfos.xml
Code: 
			<FirstFreeUnitClass>NONE</FirstFreeUnitClass>

to this
Code: 
			<FirstFreeUnitClass>UNITCLASS_DOCTOR</FirstFreeUnitClass>

I already tried this. I chose these techs.

  • Ancient Medicine - Classical Era
  • Anatomy - Medieval Era
  • Battlefield Medicine - Renaissance Era
  • Medicine - Industrial Era
  • Modern Health Care - Modern Era
  • Smart Drugs - Transhuman Era

I chose one tech per one era.
For prehistoric/ancient/galatic/future era, I couldn't find techs that seemed to fit for it.

Attached file is xmls for this. It is modular. Just put them in any subfolder in Asset/Modules. (I put them in your Tweaks folder. :mischief:)
 
strategyonly said:
OK, another question for someone: Why is that if i use an invisible unit it takes over one Fort, but the one next to that one i cant?

IE: In my game attached: I have an Assassin(savedgame) next to a few forts of Dutch town of Amsterdam, i can put my unit on one fort and it becomes MINE, but the one next to that one i try to make it mine and it will not convert? Move the Assassin to each close fort and you will see what happens:


Also attached, i remember someone saying that making forts extend your borders, that is definitely correct, see attached 3rd pic).
Click to expand...

The odd behaviour with the forts is basically because the BTS code doesn't cope properly with invisible units that can attack. Essentially there are a couple of problems:

1) Capturing a fort with a hidden nationality unit effectively reveals your nationality (because the fort changes owenership), yet it doesn't cause war! This is silly. Hidden nationality units should not be able to capture forts or cities (they already can't capture cities)

2) Because your unit is invisible it can coexist with enemy units that can't see it. Part of the does-it-capture-the-fort logic checks that the unit moving is not one that can coexist with units (even if there aren't any there as in your case) in the fort. If it can coexist no capture takes place. In your game the fort nearest the city is captured because the wardogs in the city can see you in that plot (so you can't coexist there). However they can't see you in the more distant fort, so you can coexist there and do not capture

Solution - prevent fort capture by both hidden nationality AND invisible units (this one happens to be both). Unless anyone objects I'll do this today...
 
Anyone noticed that engineers give far less production than priests if you have wonders that boost priests? Priests can give 4 hammers and 1 commerce while engineers give 2 hammers.

Is late-game research really supposed to be based on having your cities that have fusion reactors build research causing each to produce something like >40k research, easily surpassing the rest of your cities combined? Fusion reactors could really be reworked IMHO since they make cities without them almost useless. Money doesn't matter, the cities can get to legendary culture really fast with the 50k culture per turn the cities can produce etc. Fusion reactors are such massive game-changers that the one who gets them first can get an absolutely unbeatable lead.
 
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