SGOTM 14 - Fifth Element

well, I'm not sure what to do. Everyone, except our team leader, has accepted my PPP and I'm ready to play.

What do you propose as a way forward BLubmuz?

We all agree with each other on the way forward. You don't. If it were anyone else then we'd just roll turns.

Rule 6) is

6) Sometimes is not possible to have a clear majority on a decision. In case of a tie, the team-leader decides and his decision is definitive.

However, in this case there is a clear majority on a decision, but BLubmuz is applying a veto?

I don't want to just roll turns when our team leader has posted a bold "Stop this".

BLubmuz, can you please give your opinion on how the team should work if one player won't accept majority decisions?

On holy city forcing, I believe I countered the objections and showed that the calculation would still be successful. BL, if you're not comfortable with the formula, would a WB test prove it to you?

On stone being our third city, and "I don't understand why this point is still in discussion, the decision was took days ago" - I don't think it was decided, certainly not through a discussion. A lot of the problem is that lots of people dropped out and we had two very advanced test games, so it might have seemed like everything was set. Apologies from me for being unavailable to play and discuss during that time. Right now it seems the majority is clear that the food city should be next.

edit - sorry, it was decided

It's true that I haven't played through the draft dotmap - I put it up as a proposal for discussion - but the advantages are compelling for having an outstanding food city, rather than two good city sites. I think most of the team agrees on this site, but if there are strong objections, then perhaps we could discuss a consensus dotmap - if we can all agree that would move us forward.

Below the post after i asked to decide on a tie.
I thought this was a definitive decision.

BLubmuz said:

My choices:
Question 1: Alpha->BW (in trade) ->Curr OK
Question 2: Stone - Sugar (*1)
Question 3: Bureau and Caste now -> Slavery & Representation (and OR (*2)) later

(*1) I posted a map from my attempts. I used many choices, but this is just the perfect way to use at best our land with 10 good cities. All good, some better that others, no crappy cities. All specialized or at least the 3 LCs, the GP farm and the HE city, the remaining 5 as a good support.
(*2) Problem here. With 10 or 11 cities we can revolt to 2 civics at once, not 3 (even with one single city we need 2 turns for 3 civics change). Then we need another turn to choose a religion, which makes 2 turns of anarchy.
In all my tests i used a GA-driven GAge with MoM to do so, so i have to test what is better. But this is a matter we'll see in 30 turns from now.

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And no, Beestar, i'm not sure of your proposed trick for the holy city. In any case, by founding it first it gains 5cpt, so we know how much costs any turn we wait.

It's not a veto and nothing bold or unrespectful. It's just a decision already taken that you seem to ignore.

beestar said:

On holy city forcing, I believe I countered the objections and showed that the calculation would still be successful. BL, if you're not comfortable with the formula, would a WB test prove it to you?

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I think it's random factor you can in some way influence. But it's not guaranteed and this is enough to my taste.

On stone being our third city, and "I don't understand why this point is still in discussion, the decision was took days ago" - I don't think it was decided

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It was a tie and i was called to decide being the Captain. You can verify this reading this UT's post

It's true that I haven't played through the draft dotmap - I put it up as a proposal for discussion - but the advantages are compelling for having an outstanding food city, rather than two good city sites. I think most of the team agrees on this site, but if there are strong objections, then perhaps we could discuss a consensus dotmap - if we can all agree that would move us forward.

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Both are or can be great food cities but we have only one NE city, which i identified in the one N of the lake, because the need for a massive military can be a disturbing factor, but a factor in this game. The sugar city if not in need for military can produce 1-2 GAs and the HE will help on this. Not much, but will do. But surely will do on military.
Ut's point about the need for a defensive war is correct, but without phants and cats we cannot hope to destroy a stack of invaders. Even if we keep 8 LBs in the choke city, they can be easily wiped after 6 cats attack. The defensive war must be active defence, not turtle behind the walls. It will be defensive in the sense that we'll never try to conquer a city, it's just disturbing a cultural game.

Then another note. I'm busy these days, so often i post something with few minutes at disposal to give my opinions with no much attention to the form as i usually do.

This said, you guys are seriously trying my patience.
If anyone of you has played a game until completion we could compare the results of a long term strategy. But no one did. You asked to run tests, so can anyone please explain me why i did it and why i continue to be ignored?

All you're proposing is an early OU or early 7 cities or a city placement of any sort. But have you verified how this work through the end?
I played not only 3 games until completion, but some 20 partial games until Lib.
I completed the first game after i've found the optimal way to settle our land, then i continued to improve the order of the cities, the number of workers, buildings and so on. Has anyone did the same?

BLubmuz said:

I think it's random factor you can in some way influence. But it's not guaranteed and this is enough to my taste.It was a tie and i was called to decide being the Captain. You can verify this reading this UT's post

The thing here is that since there was no clear consensus instead of just having one person decide, we, as a team, discussed the merits of the two sites and a majority decided that the sugar city first was the better choice.

Both are or can be great food cities but we have only one NE city, which i identified in the one N of the lake, because the need for a massive military can be a disturbing factor, but a factor in this game. The sugar city if not in need for military can produce 1-2 GAs and the HE will help on this. Not much, but will do. But surely will do on military.
Ut's point about the need for a defensive war is correct, but without phants and cats we cannot hope to destroy a stack of invaders. Even if we keep 8 LBs in the choke city, they can be easily wiped after 6 cats attack. The defensive war must be active defence, not turtle behind the walls. It will be defensive in the sense that we'll never try to conquer a city, it's just disturbing a cultural game.
Thank you, I will continue to harp on this. We will need more military techs and units than in a normal game.

Then another note. I'm busy these days, so often i post something with few minutes at disposal to give my opinions with no much attention to the form as i usually do.

We all get that way but if you take a minute to re-read your posts you may figure out a way to say what you want in a less confrontational manner

This said, you guys are seriously trying my patience.
Again see the previous comment. I think most of the team would be willing to say the same thing about you.

If anyone of you has played a game until completion we could compare the results of a long term strategy. But no one did. You asked to run tests, so can anyone please explain me why i did it and why i continue to be ignored?

All you're proposing is an early OU or early 7 cities or a city placement of any sort. But have you verified how this work through the end?
I played not only 3 games until completion, but some 20 partial games until Lib.
I completed the first game after i've found the optimal way to settle our land, then i continued to improve the order of the cities, the number of workers, buildings and so on. Has anyone did the same?

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While I believe completely that you have played several test games out, coincidentally so have I. When I played I was going for conquest so the games were somewhat not relevant to the real game. How many of your complete games were Culture? I thought that you were playing to Space VC. Again if that is the case then that may be more relevant than conquest but still not relevant enough for the team to solely rely on your opinion. You and I have both openly admitted to the fact that Culture is not our strongest VC. Dredd and WT have shown in the past that Culture is their strong VC.
As far as the Mids not being safe after T94, you have told us that repeatedly. My tests show that they are safe 6 to 8 turns later than that. So we have a difference of opinion. Just because I have a different opinion on the topic doesn't make mine wrong and I wouldn't presume to say that you're wrong either. You may very well be right about the Mids. The bottom line though is that the rest of the team is willing to take that risk. We all agree that we want the mids but we are not willing to sacrifice the rest of our plan just for the mids. If we get them then great; if we miss them then it was a poor team decision but it was a TEAM decision and we will live with it.

Just remember everyone: There is no I In Team Fifth Element!

(Well maybe there is but you get my point )


BTW: I plan to play out a full culture game starting right now to see how it goes.

unclethrill said:

While I believe completely that you have played several test games out, coincidentally so have I. When I played I was going for conquest so the games were somewhat not relevant to the real game. How many of your complete games were Culture? I thought that you were playing to Space VC. Again if that is the case then that may be more relevant than conquest but still not relevant enough for the team to solely rely on your opinion. You and I have both openly admitted to the fact that Culture is not our strongest VC. Dredd and WT have shown in the past that Culture is their strong VC.
As far as the Mids not being safe after T94, you have told us that repeatedly. My tests show that they are safe 6 to 8 turns later than that. So we have a difference of opinion. Just because I have a different opinion on the topic doesn't make mine wrong and I wouldn't presume to say that you're wrong either. You may very well be right about the Mids. The bottom line though is that the rest of the team is willing to take that risk. We all agree that we want the mids but we are not willing to sacrifice the rest of our plan just for the mids. If we get them then great; if we miss them then it was a poor team decision but it was a TEAM decision and we will live with it.

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Actually i played 2 space games on different maps and started by a certain point (few turns after the Oracle, IIRC) a Culture game.

I don't see possible to tech that far without mids and GLib. This is NOT a normal culture game, in that we NEED those techs compared to that:
please correct me if i'm wrong, but in a normal Culture game you tech like crazy until Lib, take Nationalism for it, then tech slowly PP to gain 1C from Village/town. Thus even the OU is pretty useless, if not for the few culture it gives.
But we need:
Astro (Galleons)
Chem (Frigates)
PP>RP>GP (needed also for Chem)>Rifling, thus all the path to Banking. At that point we *can* also try Economics, to gain the GM or we can skip it.
Provided the WOZ is a "measly" Rifle, an alternative can be MS (after Chem) for Grens. They are less powerful than Rifles, but they have a 50% attack bonus vs Rifles, so we can have a 14 vs an actual 18 instead of a 14 vs 14.
MS is surely less expensive than RP+Rifling, which we can research slowly with the culture slider full on.

This is to make clear that we need 5 expensive techs (or 3 if MS) more than a normal Culture game. We can slow tech some of them if we have 'mids and hire many artists, but we need to go at full research without 'mids.

So, this the ROI of those 3 turns of delay the REX: the ability to start many turns earlier to raise the culture slider. I can test the details once the real game is arrived to a certain point, to try the best options, but for now it's not worth the effort.

I'm still sure my follow-up to the opening is improvable, but not on its strategic lines, only in minor details like MM, buidings to prioritize or use of the whip.
Those strategic lines are:
- cities placements and order of settling
- workers and military builds
- research path
- ability to squeeze the best out of the trades
- relations with the AI, not including the offer of our axxes.

So i spoke.

Well stated.

Here is where I'm at:

I played out the planned TS of Dredd and then moved on. I got Mids on T98. GLib in NY on T113. T118 7 cities and all techs that the AI have. Now at T138. 9 cities. Researching DR done in 6 turns to get 3rd religion. finished paper already. Got one shrine. Tao in Stone city. (BTW Dredd send the GS to the stone city site for Barb spawn bust and the Confused Mission to the SE. Mission can spread to Boston and then as soon as Alpha in, GS bulbs Philo and Tao is in stone city( 3rd LC) automatically. No need to calculate anything!

More as I play this out but not likely tonight.

Guys, okay, I see what happened here.

We had a tie on where to settle the third city (Blubmuz and UT in favour of Stone, Beestar and pnp in favour of 'sugar'). At this point only four people were actively commenting in the thread. In post 469, BLubmuz broke the tie to choose Stone. Afterward, (posts 472, 474, 477), pnp and I reopened the discussion by asking "If we don't want Pyramids, do we need to settle Stone City third?". WithTea and MZD came back into the conversation here.

I can see why BLubmuz feels he broke the tie, and made a decision, but is frustrated we're still arguing about it. I apologize because I missed the tiebreaking detail in his post 469.

The more recent vote summary from Post 484 adds input from WithTea and MZD, but to be fair I think they missed the original vote (sorry guys )

I believe we should respect the original voting process and tiebreak procedure, so can I suggest we settle the Stone-Gold city next?

I am still happy to fight out dotmap locations and I will argue strenuously for my site D, but I respect the earlier vote and BLubmuz's tiebreak on the third city location.

unclethrill said:

Well stated.

Here is where I'm at:

I played out the planned TS of Dredd and then moved on. I got Mids on T98. GLib in NY on T113. T118 7 cities and all techs that the AI have. Now at T138. 9 cities. Researching DR done in 6 turns to get 3rd religion. finished paper already. Got one shrine. Tao in Stone city. (BTW Dredd send the GS to the stone city site for Barb spawn bust and the Confused Mission to the SE. Mission can spread to Boston and then as soon as Alpha in, GS bulbs Philo and Tao is in stone city( 3rd LC) automatically. No need to calculate anything!

More as I play this out but not likely tonight.

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So you're telling this is the way to have Tao in our 3rd LC. There can be a problem: in my tests Confu will not autospread to Wash (accurately, will not some 6-7 times out of 10). But his let 2 more problems open:
- we'll lose some 5-6 turns of an Holy city founding it in our 4th city and not running a religion.
- turn 98 is NOT safe for 'mids, according to 2 out of 10 tests. Turn 95 is.

In any case, the sugar city is better placed on the hill. I hate to place cities on hills, but that makes the NE city far better and, first of all, the city on the hill is the true choke in case of desperate need for defence, being conquer that city the only way to move further N.

edit:Xposted with Beestar
good to hear, let's hope this will have the game moving again.
About your site D, i already expressed my opinions: site D in itself is the best possible one for the NE.
Pity we must use that city as our military city if in need, so the NE city must go in a less productive city faraway from the possible front. If you analyze the site 1N of the lake, you can see that if we farm instead of cottage it, it can run as many specialists as your site D. Pigs, wheat, clams, the lake and farms can make a great NE city. And it can borrow the PH from Wash if needs to build structures and Wash is not busy in priority buildings. It can also share a silk with the city NE, between itself and the ivory city.
Trust me, this is the best possible use of our land.

And the sugar city can hire many specialists too if we're not in need of military and probably pop 1 or even 2 GAs. Try it out.

BLubmuz, we've had a second vote over the last few days, perhaps you should catch up on the thread. The votes for city site demonstrate a clear majority for sugar city first.

So I'll ask again, can you please give your opinion on how the team should work if one player won't accept majority decisions?

BLubmuz said:

But we need:[/COLOR]
Astro (Galleons)
Chem (Frigates)
PP>RP>GP (needed also for Chem)>Rifling, thus all the path to Banking. At that point we *can* also try Economics, to gain the GM or we can skip it.

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I'm not sure that I agree. If we are going to win fast, then I think we should aim for cuirs and galleons, not rifles and frigates.If we minimise trades to the AI this will slow their tech pace compared with your mass-trading approach. In this case galleons may be sufficient, and we'll need many less beakers.

We can slow tech some of them if we have 'mids and hire many artists, but we need to go at full research without 'mids.

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We should definitely go full research until we complete our techs (except NEpic city running artists), and then switch 100% to culture. We'll get most of our beakers from cottages, lots of which will be multiplied through a bureau capital, perhaps with Oxford. We need a high science slider to do this. Rep will have some impact but remember that those beakers don't get multiplied like the capital's cottages.

So, this the ROI of those 3 turns of delay the REX: the ability to start many turns earlier to raise the culture slider. I can test the details once the real game is arrived to a certain point, to try the best options, but for now it's not worth the effort.

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If it were simply 3 turns without any other cost then it may be worth it. But that doesn't take into account the opportunity costs, for example delaying the high-food site by 15 turns means that we found a few other cities 15 turns later, and/or run 15 turns less of full artists. There are other opportunity costs too (e.g. forests chopped, worker turns spent on roads), and it's just not accurate make a judgement on the assumption that 'mids costs only 3 turns.

[this is the real power of my 7-cities-by-turn-93 BW plan, and to me everything else looks like a huge opportunity cost]

Wonders are always like this - they have benefits, but you must weigh the benefits against the significant costs. BL you really like to control these comparisons on your terms, and it results in poorer play for the team.

Can anyone explain me why i tested 3 games until completion and one pops out a dotmap he never used and that was a good map? If you do so i can maybe be convinced.

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This is not a logical argument. "I tested more so I'm right" is not the way to convince the rest of us that you have properly weighed costs against benefits.

I give up. You win BLubmuz. Do it you way cause I don't care any more.

BLubmuz said:

So you're telling this is the way to have Tao in our 3rd LC. There can be a problem: in my tests Confu will not autospread to Wash (accurately, will not some 6-7 times out of 10). But his let 2 more problems open:
- we'll lose some 5-6 turns of an Holy city founding it in our 4th city and not running a religion.
- turn 98 is NOT safe for 'mids, according to 2 out of 10 tests. Turn 95 is.

In any case, the sugar city is better placed on the hill. I hate to place cities on hills, but that makes the NE city far better and, first of all, the city on the hill is the true choke in case of desperate need for defence, being conquer that city the only way to move further N.

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5-6 turns of a holy city are negligible, especially in the early game when we have virtually no multiplier. Having said that, as I said in my earlier post, I will accept the Stone city next, let's just move on.

About adopting a religion, in the long run we want to be in a neighbour's religion, not Confucianism. This is the best way to avoid having to spend hammers on a defensive war.

We're in big trouble if the defensive value of a hill becomes critical to our strategy. We have to play good diplo to avoid spending hammers on a stack of catapults or 8 longbowmen(!!). After all, if we' have to build up a military big enough to defeat the enemy stack, then we might as well have just gone for Conquest in the first place.

I'm still keen on Site D ... having the BEST food possible for National Epic is important. We can argue about that next turnset.

A preface to this post: I say this all in great humility, being new to FE, SGOTM, and probably the least skilled player on the team. However, the reason I joined in the SG is to learn, and without voicing my opinion I won't be able to do so. What I don't want you all to think is that I'm trying to play devil's advocate in an already tense situation. Anyhow, here I go:

Imo an effective culture game will have LCs containing either 1.Wonders 2. mass cottages or 3. specialists. Maybe a mix of all three, but definitely one of those things. All will also have temples and atleast one stupa/mandir/synagoge/etc.

Washington will have the most wonders contributing to culture. Sistine's, Taj, Hermitage, atleast 2 of these 3. It will also have a cathedral or two, a fair amount of cottages/calendar resource tiles, and will be running bureau. This is by far the easiest LC, and probably will beat the others by a few turns with minimal effort and MAX 1 GA bomb. Probably none though.

New York has 8 cottageable tiles, unfortunately two are plains. 10 or more cottageable tiles would be best, but tough luck. This LC will probably need an extra GA bomb or two due to only 8 cottages, and not being productive enough to handle much more than temples, maybe a uni, a cathedral, and perhaps Taj/Hermitage.

So, as I see it LC3 is our #1 issue on the table. Not the mids. Not the GL. Not even military. Not for this TS at least.

We have GOT to get the best possible GPfarm as LC3. Period. It is the most important part of a culture game since it will catch itself and NY up to Washington with GA bombs. Again, I say this all in humility being a less skilled player, but until someone offers a valid reason we shouldn't be prioritizing our NEpic city I will maintain this position. Mids ASAP are not worth delaying our GPfarm.

I do not see a spot better than the sugar city. I'm not sure what site BL is referring to north of the lake, maybe I'm missing something, but that is not enough food to support enough specialists for our purposes.

Yes, stone and mids ASAP would be nice, but getting our gpfarm up and having it get maybe 1-2 workers/settlers for our REX as well as a granary and library built before Lit so we can chop out the NEpic is ESSENTIAL!

I know that what I perceive as the best culture strategy has clashed with some of the rest of the team previously, and I am willing to see others reasoning. However, one thing I believe is worth me making an argument over and that is prioritizing the GPfarm.

Next issue, and again I approach this subject with great humility as the new FE member.

I have hesitated to mention this since BL graciously invited me to the team, and is a better player than I, and also because I thought it best that veteran teammates work things out. However, I think the time has come for me to chip in.

BLubmuz, I hope it is just the language barrier causing confusion, but you are at times seeming more a dictator than a captain. I think the consensus regarding Dredd's PPP is clearly the green light, and the same for our next city site to the SW of Washington and not the stone site.

There. My 2 cents. I am going to once again step back and let veteran team members resolve these issues.

First i think that Beestar addressed what happened in his second last post.

If Dredd has played right after that that would have been the team decision according to the team rules. Only his delay caused that vote. More on that later.

Then, Dredd continues to hope we can kill the WOZ with cuirass, not using frigates to protect the galleons. But he must explain us what can happen if our loaded galleons are sink by privateers when in sight of the target or what can happen if the WOZ is a rifle or an infantry. I gave already the results of my WB tests on this matter. No need to comment further.

If we go full research until we have all the tech we need, we're wrong. We have probably time to research the last tech or two with the slider 100% on culture, to have the WOZ killed few turns before the victory. Obviously this must be carefully planned once we know what the WOZ is and where he is.

Above the answers to Dredd, now to Meow:
- A LC can hardly be the GP farm. The hammers for the cathedrals and other culture buildings needed in a LC will not pair with the need to run as many artists as possible.
Also, having an early wonder which can multiply its culture in 1000 years will help.
- Every LC will have temples, monasteries and cathedrals for any religion we have in our empire. This is the first rule for a Cultural VC. Unis and theaters will help too.
- usually the Hermitage (which worths 2 cathedrals) is built in the less cultured of the 3 LCs, almost never in the Capital.
- What you all keep forgetting is that:
1) the NE is a NW which we can build when we like to.
2) at present we don't have the tech to build it
3) the pyramids can be built once in a game and all the AIs have the tech to build them. If they do, they're gone forever. Then you must explain to me how we can couple the need for culture and the need for research. If you read any of Jesusin's reports about his games, you can see that they are a key wonder for his games. And he's not forced to tech as far as we are in this game.

Last, i'm tired af all this discussion. Now it's almost a month i've posted the last TS.

Do not take in any account my opinions, play on with your fine plans. I'll stay at the window.

Nicely said Meow. Don't be afraid to post your opinion! This is a team game and we all have strengths and not-so-strengths. It's unlikely that anyone in this team is a "better player", but it's likely that everyone here has their own strengths. There is very little to lose by posting your thoughts up, and if you don't speak up is that the team doesn't receive any insights you might have. I would be particularly interested in your opinion on risks vs reward. For example: Would you accept massive risks to perhaps get the gold (or fail miserably)? Would you accept high risks to get in the top 3? Would you prefer to play a low risk game and come in the top half, but have no chance of getting the gold?

Note that the level of conflict within the team for this SGOTM is way higher than I've experienced before, so please don't think that this is representative. I acknowledge that I probably am not at my most diplomatic at the moment, with everything going on in my life, so I take at least part of the responsibility for this. I'm trying to remain logical, but I may well be failing to be diplomatic. I have a very high appetite for risk and I think people have learnt to take this into account when evaluating my strategies.

I agree that Washington is LC1 and the NEpic city is LC3. I think the location of "LC2" is still very much up in the air. There is a site with 11 cottages, most riverside, but at the cost of significant overlap with other cities:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10837981&postcount=344
11 cottagable (6 riverside) +2 riverside shared with Washington
2 hills (perhaps + resource)
1 food resource
plenty of forests

BLubmuz said:

Do not take in any account my opinions, play on with your fine plans. I'll stay at the window.

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I'll take that as a green light, and I'm playing my set now.

Highlights:

Turn 71: Christianity founded in a distant land.
Turn 72: met "South" Mali + Zulu. Opened borders. Mansa founded Buddhism.
Turn 74: met "East" Viking + India. Rangar founded Hinduism. Will not open borders at "cautious".
Turn 74: Barbarian city founded in the North. I think this is actually good, because Barb cities stop random barbs from spawning, so the north is completely barb-busted.
Turn 76: Our northern archer defeats a barb archer.
Turn 77: South adopts OR, East adopts HR. Barb warrior moves within 1 tile of GS, who retreats.
Turn 78: Alphabet in. Zulu (South) converts to Judaism. Washington completes settler. NY grows to size 4.

Also: South is worst enemy of East. We are doing really well with GNP (gold production) compared with the AI. This increases my confidence that we can out-tech them if we don't trade too much, and get away with Galleons for troop movement.

Things to consider: What do we want to do with espionage points?

Attached: techs to trade, diplo situation, GNP chart

c-c-c-c-combo post!

more screenies attached, demographics and a full-res view of the north with the new barbarian city and the GS under threat.

MeowZeDung, you are up next. Your turn to have a look over the save, and post up your thoughts on our next moves so that the team can consider them. I've attached the test game to this post, updated to reflect my moves. Mess around with this as much as you want.

the GOTM server is down so I have attached the REAL SAVE to this post.

DO NOT MESS AROUND WITH THIS SAVE - IT IS THE OFFICIAL SAVE.

Looking good.

Nobody else has Alpha? Awesome.

Diplo will be tricky but mastering it will pay big dividends. As expected, the AI teams are fragmenting into different religions. At least we're not anyone's worst enemy.

Do NOT let that GS die!!!