SGOTM 14 - Phoenix Rising

Tested Glib version again.

Got curs 540ad! This time I built an academy in capital. Near 540ad with specialists capital is getting +40science beakers a turn at break even. Even more if you max science to 100%. So 40 turns of science between 12-50 beakers. Probably pays off for an academy. Main issue was 2 great artists. Begs the question when to go music? I did trade for gold with AI. So not sure how much this influenced. Trading world maps revealed 95% of map. Do we need to explore that much really?? Seems a bit pointless on that basis.

Need some thought on granary vs monuments in copper and sheep city. Border pop will come 4-5 turns within COL.

Also on workboat exploration. Explore to Ai border or use on a workboat?

Not sure on copper city. I am now thinking skip monument and focus on granary using copper tile and then switching to cows/sheep.

Same for NY switch from science to production and get the granary complete sooner.

Stone can micro granary build so at size 5 it completes it before growth. Stone can build the worker at size 5/6.

I found building 2 archers in capital frees up the other cities.

SHeep city could build a workboat then granary. Or granary/workboat instead. Question is do we need the monuments if we get COl soon enough. Overall I would rather be growing these cities.

My focus on turnset will be to grow all cities while getting important builds like granaries complete.

Couple of saves attached. The curs save and a test game i did to 350bc. Note Washington is 1T from size 13. ;)
 
i don't feel strongly about the GE. I do feel strongly that trading aesthetics for alpha is a bad idea
 
i don't feel strongly about the GE. I do feel strongly that trading aesthetics for alpha is a bad idea

It wouldn't be a straight swap but I agree. Just finish alpha and see what you can trade then. As for the GE, it's clear that I'm in the minority here and I'm not going to convince people otherwise. If it's the majority vote, then I'm more than happy to go along with it, that's why it's a team game in the first place!

Can I just ask for a small compromise? I'm assuming that you're going to trade for sailing ASAP, could we maybe just slow build a LH in stone city straight away instead of whipping it? Then if the GLH is still available and we have international trade routes maybe we can re-evaluate? These seem to be the two main questions that people have with regards to the GLH, so if it's still available in ten turns I think that changes things. It'd be before we need to rush TGL anyway...
 
there is only optimal and suboptimal play (and My when you say that you wouldn't normally burn GE on TGL - you know why you say this, it just isn't optimal!). I won't flame you Gumbolt, since this will be teams decision.

I will offer another view on this situation (again).

Let's say MC costs 600 beakers (I am not sure how many it is and can't check right now, so I am conservative, since I think it's over 700, but not sure).
TGL brings 18x1.25 = 22 beakers per turn.

What does this mean?
If I use GE on TGL instead of MC first ~28 turns the TGL pays back for the GE! With conservative estimate of having 9 turns later without GE rush it means that the rush will be paid back after 19 turns.

Otoh if I bulb MC I could build in advance everywhere 25% prod multiplier with 2 happy faces (3 eventually) and have yet another trade bait.

About alpha...
I don't like this double standard, on one hand we storm the TGL with GE "because every turn matters", but when we start to talk about alpha... now the turns don't matter!
I don't understand this. Either we agree we have to have everything asap and act according to it or we don't.

Still didn't hear from Gum about possible trades for Aesth. If I remember right from tests I could get for Aesth Alpha + some techs even without investing into alpha, so I expect that this trade could be really "big".
 
actually now that I think about it the example is a bit wrong. Since for the rushed TGL to pay back the build without rushing has to be longer then the payback of not bulbing MC, which isn't.

So with rushing TGL we lose around 19 T (difference between build times and payback time) x 22 beakers.
 
This example is inaccurate @Vran, cos MC is not important for us till we are closer to Curs.
I would be very surprised if we cannot trade for it, but one thing is for sure you cannot trade for GP points ;)
This way of doing the maths also doesn't count in the freed up tiles in the capital, we don't want to work hammers there unless we absolutely have to.
 
Can I just ask for a small compromise? I'm assuming that you're going to trade for sailing ASAP, could we maybe just slow build a LH in stone city straight away instead of whipping it? Then if the GLH is still available and we have international trade routes maybe we can re-evaluate? These seem to be the two main questions that people have with regards to the GLH, so if it's still available in ten turns I think that changes things. It'd be before we need to rush TGL anyway...

This is a good idea.
 
actually now that I think about it the example is a bit wrong. Since for the rushed TGL to pay back the build without rushing has to be longer then the payback of not bulbing MC, which isn't.

So with rushing TGL we lose around 19 T (difference between build times and payback time) x 22 beakers.

MC bulb - Our capital will be focused on food and beakers. Same for many of our other cities. Forges really are an after thought. Whipping will be the way we build our army. I agree with Mylene MC will be a cheap tech to trade once all the Ai have it. We will only need it come 200-300ad maybe.

Your maths on Glib fails to take account of great people points. That and lost commerce from city whipped for light house.

With chopping Glib may be 8-9 turns but NE will still be 10-11 turns.
GE on Glib. Glib 1 turn NE 5 turns with chops. 14 turns spare to build wonders or whatever.

The early bonus on Glib will over double our GPP in our capital from 12-28 and 5 turns later to 51 GPP a turn if we run 2 scientists constantly.

GLH approach will be at 12gpp a turn for 9-10 turns and 28 for a further 11 turns.

So you lose (28-12=16) 16*6=96gpp
(51-12=39) 3*39=117 gpp
23*10=230 gpp
Extra 443 great people points by rushing Glib.

So net gain of 443 great people points compared to a GLH strategy. That is 1-2 extra great person in the time it takes the capital to catch up. I have assumed 2 scientists in capital all the time. In reality the capital will be growing more under Glib approach compared to GLH.

Now those 443 points convert into an academy or a GS to bulb a tech like MC for free. You really need to look beyond the 18 beakers a turn you see. Cause in reality those extra great people could give us 2 extra trading techs. Bigger trading chips gives us more gold from the Ai too in trades.


I need to check if finishing alphabet delays Lit by much. 2 turns of alphabet will reduce the excess gold we have. We need to be careful here. I will run science at 0% when teching myst and poly. I will put the beakers into currency.

I would aim to trade for hunting/IW/alphabet/Myst/sailing/poly/med. This would involve 2 trades i guess. Trading alphabet may not get all of the above techs. That is another worry.

I gotta go out but will do some final testing tonight and either play tonight or more likely tomorrow.
 
it's not that the turns don't matter, it's that if you trade away aesthetics for weak techs and lose the monopoly, the ai may flip it around and then you can't trade it for anything. Obviously, those other ai without alpha have been researching something. Monarchy, theo, col etc etc
 
ok I played full test up to cuirassiers with settled GE. I made there couple of mistakes on the road

- biggest one - i didn't switch into bureau right after aquiring CS, but more like 10 turns later

- I settled 2nd GE instead of using him on TM in critical phase

- nothing I could influence, but I got unwanted Great Artist on 2% chance :-(

640 AD. I guess that is around 5-6 turns later then best Gumbolt's save.

I have 9 cities (captured the barb city not so long ago)

Don't have barracks/slavery everywhere, am not in slavery and obviously have not forges (the GE was settled).

Tough to say how the save would stand if I didn't made the dumb mistake with CS :-(
 
Good to see a test save V. Shame about your CS thing.

How much wealth did you use?? I used practically none! The biggest issues we both had was lack of stables and barracks built. I needed to focus a bit more on that.

I liked fact you had capital at size 15. I didn't like the size of your marble city at size 5. I got it up to size 10. Irrigating that city early on really does help. The 8th city will take a while to become useful as it is still quite small. I might not of built it. I think you would of got to curs quicker with 6-7 larger cities.

Overall the settling of the GE is not huge as we plan to run scientists in our capital and use farms mostly. I guess it helps with wealth. I probably should of settled 1-2 of the artists really. GE on TM wonder would of been a good move.

I think my 540ad date with better city/worker micro would not be hard to beat. I played pretty quickly and probably made lots of mistakes.
 
Okay final plan!

City builds

So capital
Finish granary 1T, archer, Glib (Use GE), NE. Run 1-2 scientists when not building archer/granary.

Gem city - Finish granary, archer, workboat for sheep city. Try for a GS here before washington. Could be close.

Sheep city. T1 switch to monument/workboat/granary

Copper city - Switch to monument/granary/workboat.

Stone city - granary/start LH/ chop worker in between. We need this worker.

Marble city - finish granary.

Unit movement
- Send archer from sheep city to copper city.

Scout with warrior in Aztec land. Should we keep him and try and worker steal on barbs?

Whipping
I have no plans to whip at present unless it is going to take a granary 20+ turns to complete. I will always try to chop instead.

Great People

GE for Glib.

GS for academy.

GA - settle in capital.

workers.
Work farms near wash and near marble city. Work farm near Gems city (east of) after deer .

Chop forest for NE.

Work copper/cows/sheep. Could really use a forest chop if we can spare a second worker.

Overall this plan is based on a bulbing strategy possibly going towards curs.

Only dilema is alphabet over aesth. I'll sleep on it.

Play tomorrow once home from work. GMT 7pm.
 
i cannot understand how trading aesthetics for alpha and mysticism is a dilemna. The worst case scenario is we self-tech alpha and then trade aesthetics to the other 3 AIs for a bunch of techs. To the contrary, the worst case with trading for alpha is that the AI tech brokers it, gets a bunch of good techs, and all we get is alpha.
 
i cannot understand how trading aesthetics for alpha and mysticism is a dilemna. The worst case scenario is we self-tech alpha and then trade aesthetics to the other 3 AIs for a bunch of techs. To the contrary, the worst case with trading for alpha is that the AI tech brokers it, gets a bunch of good techs, and all we get is alpha.

I will see what trades are like. On test game we were offered 3-4 tech to trade aesth. I need to check live save before I play.

I can understand your worry on Aesth and Ai tech brokering it. I can also understand Vranasm frustration too on slowing down our tech approach.

I will probably start in a few mins now. (edit)
 
Okay this went really badly.

The spear showed up 2 turns in. I got the archer in the city. Turn later spear beat the archer. 2 other archers followed up.

Turn later spear and 2 archers defeated my axe and warrior. The spear lead the assualt and the copper city fell. When the 3 Ai barbs showed up there was little I could do. Perhaps I should of attacked the spear on the forest or reported back. Perhaps I should of paused when the units turned up. :(

The copper city has been destroyed.

Absolutely gutted. :(

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 725 BC to 600 BC:

Turn 86, 725 BC: Good Witch of the South adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 87, 700 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 87, 700 BC: Sidney Reilly (Great Spy) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 87, 700 BC: Atisha (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 88, 675 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have discovered Hunting!
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have trained a Archer in Sweet Sheep. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Good Witch of the South's Golden Age has begun!!!

Turn 89, 650 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Copper Junction!
Turn 89, 650 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Copper Junction!
Turn 89, 650 BC: TOPEKA has grown to size 7.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Marble Town has grown to size 2.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Good Witch of the South will trade Polytheism
Turn 89, 650 BC: Wicked Witch of the South will trade Polytheism
Turn 89, 650 BC: Wicked Witch of the West will trade Meditation, Polytheism
Turn 89, 650 BC: Good Witch of the West will trade Meditation, Polytheism
Turn 89, 650 BC: Wicked Witch of the North will trade Meditation, Polytheism
Turn 89, 650 BC: Good Witch of the North will trade Meditation, Polytheism
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have discovered Meditation!
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Good Witch of the West has founded Calcutta in a distant land.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Barbarian's Spearman (4.00) vs Dorothy's Archer 2 (Deer gems) (5.25)
Turn 89, 650 BC: Combat Odds: 17.8%
Turn 89, 650 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 89, 650 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 89, 650 BC: Dorothy's Archer 2 (Deer gems) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 89, 650 BC: Dorothy's Archer 2 (Deer gems) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 89, 650 BC: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 89, 650 BC: Dorothy's Archer 2 (Deer gems) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 89, 650 BC: Dorothy's Archer 2 (Deer gems) is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 89, 650 BC: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 89, 650 BC: Dorothy's Archer 2 (Deer gems) is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 89, 650 BC: Dorothy's Archer 2 (Deer gems) is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 89, 650 BC: Barbarian's Spearman has defeated Dorothy's Archer 2 (Deer gems)!
Turn 89, 650 BC: While defending, your Archer 2 (Deer gems) was destroyed by a Barbarian Spearman!

Turn 90, 625 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Copper Junction!
Turn 90, 625 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Deer gems!
Turn 90, 625 BC: TOPEKA can hurry Archer for 1⇴ with 18ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sweet Sheep can hurry Monument for 1⇴ with 22ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 21 turns.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Good Witch of the South will trade Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 90, 625 BC: Wicked Witch of the South will trade Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 90, 625 BC: Wicked Witch of the West will trade Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 90, 625 BC: Good Witch of the West will trade Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 90, 625 BC: Wicked Witch of the North will trade Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 90, 625 BC: Good Witch of the North will trade Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 90, 625 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Spearman (4.27) vs Dorothy's Axeman 4 (Washington) (8.75)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Combat Odds: 0.8%
Turn 90, 625 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 90, 625 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 90, 625 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Axeman 4 (Washington) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 27 (62/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 27 (35/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Axeman 4 (Washington) is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Axeman 4 (Washington) is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 27 (8/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Axeman 4 (Washington) is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Axeman 4 (Washington) has defeated Barbarian's Spearman!
Turn 90, 625 BC: While defending, your Axeman 4 (Washington) has killed a Barbarian Spearman!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.03) vs Dorothy's Warrior 3 (TOPEKA) (3.30)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Combat Odds: 38.5%
Turn 90, 625 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 90, 625 BC: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 90, 625 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 90, 625 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Warrior 3 (TOPEKA) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (72/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Warrior 3 (TOPEKA) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Warrior 3 (TOPEKA) is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (52/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Warrior 3 (TOPEKA) is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (32/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Warrior 3 (TOPEKA) is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (12/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Warrior 3 (TOPEKA) is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Dorothy's Warrior 3 (TOPEKA)!
Turn 90, 625 BC: While defending, your Warrior 3 (TOPEKA) was destroyed by a Barbarian Archer!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Archer (2.61) vs Dorothy's Axeman 4 (Washington) (2.75)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Combat Odds: 71.2%
Turn 90, 625 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (62/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Axeman 4 (Washington) is hit for 15 (29/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Axeman 4 (Washington) is hit for 15 (14/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Dorothy's Axeman 4 (Washington) is hit for 15 (0/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Dorothy's Axeman 4 (Washington)!
Turn 90, 625 BC: While defending, your Axeman 4 (Washington) was destroyed by a Barbarian Archer!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Copper Junction (Dorothy) has been captured by the Barbarian State!!!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Copper Junction has been razed by the Barbarian State!!!

Turn 91, 600 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Deer gems!
Turn 91, 600 BC: Deer gems can hurry Archer for 1⇴ with 13ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Good Witch of the South will trade Monarchy
Turn 91, 600 BC: Wicked Witch of the South will trade Monarchy
Turn 91, 600 BC: Wicked Witch of the West will trade Monarchy
Turn 91, 600 BC: Good Witch of the West will trade Monarchy
Turn 91, 600 BC: Good Witch of the South/Wicked Witch of the South is the worst enemy of Wicked Witch of the North/Good Witch of the North, Wicked Witch of the East/Good Witch of the East.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Wicked Witch of the East/Good Witch of the East is the worst enemy of Good Witch of the South/Wicked Witch of the South, Wicked Witch of the West/Good Witch of the West.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Good Witch of the South will trade Monarchy, Monotheism
Turn 91, 600 BC: Wicked Witch of the South will trade Monarchy, Monotheism
Turn 91, 600 BC: Wicked Witch of the West will trade Monarchy, Monotheism
Turn 91, 600 BC: Good Witch of the West will trade Monarchy, Monotheism
Turn 91, 600 BC: Wicked Witch of the North will trade Monotheism
Turn 91, 600 BC: Good Witch of the North will trade Monotheism
Turn 91, 600 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Good Witch of the North, Good Witch of the South, Wicked Witch of the North, Wicked Witch of the South
 
could have happened to anyone, but you could stop...

you didn't saved in paused!! so everyone pause this.

There is couple of problems now on hand.

Archers from SW. We could attack the 1.9 one with 96% odds, but if we lose too much health the further one will eat us.

More dangerous is the situation around gems city, since our Archer is not on road and will not be fortified when he arrives in the city.
I think we almost have to whip the archer and stack there both, we probably will get pillaged on the wheat.

The axe build in stone city will be abandoned, we probably should switch into archer right away.
The same sheep city.

We need to get the archers out of our cities before infra.

I would let this at least 24 hours for rethinking the strategy though.

That's just initial reaction to situation.
 
there is another danger with the archer if he decides to go straight after sheep city if he sees us bunkering gems.

I think we are almost forced to whip the archer, move archer on gems and cross fingers if the archer attacks archer on gems to win, but more probable is the barb archer moving on wheat with the attempt going towards sheep.

We probably have to attack it, luckilly it is injured and we should have better odds probably.
 
btw that combat log is one big lol too... losing war on 38% odds. Spearman that on 0.8% odds takes 56 HP from axe...

this is really bad joke from civ again.
 
Everything barb wise that could go wrong did go wrong!! I probably should of paused when the 2 barb archers arrived.

The barb archer left the barb city pretty much on T1. I think overall we left ourselves too undefended really.

If we had 80 gold left when the barb spear came back i could of perhaps attacked the spear. Overall we had some seriously bad odds. When the archer reached the city the barb spear was on it's border.

I couldn't believe the barb spear beating the axe!! Wow!!

Overall have I killed this game?? Oh we do have iron where we placed Topeka.

Tes I should of saved in pause mode but I was so depressed i forgot.
 
Yip no worries Gumi, Barbs in a competitive game are a bit stupid to begin with as it brings in a lot of random factors -.-

We got punished for our early fail in spawn busting, sadly. Like "woodie" running off.
 
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