4 cities swords rush prelude

Tested more and yes if the land is a bit more clustred and have a close AI a 3 cities set-up is very good. I made a try with a nice land with no possibility to the AI to bully me for the first 100 turns(good choke point) and still got a bit difficulties to build things in time. Had only trapping and calendar ressources around.

I found that it's better to delay construction and go for a lux tech that will get you more gold before upgrading archers. Mining, archery and pottery is needed early on with masonry. If by any chances you can't hook any mining or masonry luxs it's better to pick an extra lux tech(multiple copies if possible) before construction, especially if you have a choke point.

That makes quite a bit of possibilities. Lot of suggestions so far and many civs have certainly some great advantages for some eras as well.

We need a mega thread with all crossroads possible. Maybe a sort of collab? What do you think? Lot of works ahead.

Each guy can try a specific approach. Maybe share maps and share experiences?

Tabarnak, just so you know, you can get 1 more gold out of the "fake friendly" AIs . They will give you 209 for luxes

nice stuff here, CBs do seem pretty strong.

Having played a bit more G&K I wonder what the rationale behind the very strong archer units is, if there is any. Both CBs and Crossbows seem a lot more powerful against cities than you would expect considering siege units get +200% bonuses (a +200% catapult is at 24 while a CB is at 11 but the CB still seems to do plenty of damage). A similar picture for crossbows and trebs. And don't even get me started on where gatling guns are located in the tech tree. You can get them really early and upgrade all your archers into a frontline unit. Artillery still rocks the house but they need support, and muskets don't cut it.

Ok i made a couple more tries at immortal and finally pulled one out :x

The hurdles I have met:

A./ 9/10 Times I start surrounded by jungle or with only calendar resources which means I need IW or calendar or sailing+boat to sell luxuries and upgrade / rush buy archers. Worst case being when I had only jungle calendar resources... I join you on that point tabernak - gold is so critical
B./ often, the ennemy city is surrounded by jungle or hills which is another problem as cb need to get in very very close
C./ if ai gangs up then there is no one else to sell stuff to !
D./ if you get dow twice early by 2 different sides you are screwed
E./ I get dowed between turn 36 and 45 usually at which point it becomes a challenge to survive with enough troops to counter attack - and when u counter there is a risk of being dowed on the other side of your mal
F./ wall or extra archers !?
G./ education OR machinery after philosophy ?

I noticed that when you sell a luxury to a nearby AI they seem to be less likely to attack you. I've had France completely ignore me only to attack Sejong who was much farther away AND had a larger military than I, just because I sold them a lux. They are also much more likely to offer a DoF if you trade with them.

Going on a trip for 3 days.

I let some pictures of my game played peacefully with Byzantines(only China DoWed me on turn 188). Immortal, Pangea. I'm at turn 190. I don't know if it's good or not, first time so far into a singleplayer game. But personnally i feel good

Full Tradition, 3 left side Patronnage, 2 left side Rationalism. Running with 6 allied CS and 6 cities from my own. What is nice is that i'm almost lead with no conquest and against a runaway AI. I DoF 3-4 civs and running RAs with them.

4 cities then NC(built around turn 100, a bit late for my taste). Construction early for defence before some lux techs, slowing down progression of cities. Metal Casting--->Physics--->Education. I could skip Physics and go for Education right away, allying CS jumped my happiness bucket far enough. Also picked mostly happiness bonuses from religion.



The runaway AI :

I enjoy the approach. Tried it for first time on Immortal, had a bit of difficulty taking Byzantine's capital because the terrain was not ideal, alot of jungle and forest, I got the capital to 1 hp but had to retreat cause they raped my melees, then charged in again (had 5 CB, 1 spearman and 1 warrior), they had the time to build a second city but I took it over. Then I got attacked by Ethiopia (I swear I hate this civ, in the 4 games I played of G&K always had problems with them) and India, managed to push off the attacks with well placed citadels and alot of CB, then I made peace with Ethiopia and conquered India (Delhi had 10 wonders). After this I waited until cannons and I invaded Ethiopia with cannons/musketmen/frigates. Interesting game so far, on the other continent, Korea conquered Germany, America and is now banging on Celts. Knowing Korea was a super power forced me to go into Rationalism, stole 3 techs from them and I'm now #1 in science. (5 Tradition, 3 Commerce and 5 Rationalism) Was planning to go for domination but gave up, they have a ridiculous army, 3x my size with about 50% of it being naval, so I'm investing in science and defense.

The big difference I saw between this strategy and my usual play style is that I struggled much more with happiness, I'm always able to go into positive but this time I actually needed to put efforts into it.

Out of 7-8 attempts at archers rush I failed only once, against Wu (she rocks! ) and her mad GG. Losing in average 1 archer.
Because you have to act so fast the terrain is the key. It's possible to finish one neighbor off very quickly, but if the second was spawned in non-approachable spot, you're in trouble. Heading away in different direction might be pointless.

BTW, if you're competing Atilla at who's gonna get Egypt first at turn 82, you'd better win!

Tabarnak said:

I found that it's better to delay construction and go for a lux tech that will get you more gold before upgrading archers. Mining, archery and pottery is needed early on with masonry. If by any chances you can't hook any mining or masonry luxs it's better to pick an extra lux tech(multiple copies if possible) before construction, especially if you have a choke point.

Click to expand...

For sure. Even Trapping ones. AH on the way is not bad at all. Sea resources would suck here big time. Other than that, luxes first, all the rest second.

Tabarnak said:

We need a mega thread with all crossroads possible. Maybe a sort of collab? What do you think? Lot of works ahead.

Each guy can try a specific approach. Maybe share maps and share experiences?

Click to expand...

You sound very much like my boss. Will we get payed?

Makaz said:

Ok i made a couple more tries at immortal and finally pulled one out :x

The hurdles I have met:

A./ 9/10 Times I start surrounded by jungle or with only calendar resources which means I need IW or calendar or sailing+boat to sell luxuries and upgrade / rush buy archers. Worst case being when I had only jungle calendar resources... I join you on that point tabernak - gold is so critical

Click to expand...

Only sea resources are the worst case. You spend the gold on boats instead of archers. Calendar is not that horrible. 6-7 turns won't make so much difference if you're fast enough. 80's are still ok. Em... I think. And you mean BW, right?

B./ often, the ennemy city is surrounded by jungle or hills which is another problem as cb need to get in very very close

Click to expand...

Usually there is more than one possible target. If there is only one, you're screwed. No trades and have to deal with whatever terrain he has. This approach will work better on pangaea, of course. And scouting is crucial even more than gold. I let starting warrior find a potential victim and scouts were looking for trading partners and goody huts.

C./ if ai gangs up then there is no one else to sell stuff to !

Click to expand...

True. But isn't Civ about playing the map? Let's not get carried away and forget about that. You can't take too serious a 'scientific' approach that pretends to find the best possible opening. We make an assumption that everything fits. But if something doesn't, you pick another path.

D./ if you get dow twice early by 2 different sides you are screwed

Click to expand...

Depends. If you manage to fend off one of them, and there is no reason for not being able to with bunch of archers, you get penalty free war. They stop coming at you or ask for peace after some time. Try to keep defense for a while and if you see there is no more enemy units approaching your cities, it's usually a sign you can move forward.

E./ I get dowed between turn 36 and 45 usually at which point it becomes a challenge to survive with enough troops to counter attack - and when u counter there is a risk of being dowed on the other side of your mal

Click to expand...

That's true. There is always a risk involved. I lost a city once, because all my troops were occupied with another annoyance. Had to go and take it back. While it sucks and is sort of a set back, losing peripheral city is not translated into loosing the game. In a way it's even good to have extra city as target, which keeps enemies away from your major ones.

F./ wall or extra archers !?

Click to expand...

Depends on terrain, I guess. With lots of forests and such, probably walls. Archers are no good if they can't move and see. Other than that archers are THE best.

G./ education OR machinery after philosophy ?

Click to expand...

That's a good one. More testing is needed.

@Tabarnak
Let us know when you finish that game. I have hard time benchmarking too. Feel so clueless..

The Pilgrim said:

Yeah. Since puppets get freebies from Tradition just like your native cities, that's basically the case.

Click to expand...

Just checked, that's wrong.

I got 3 cities and complete Tradition tree on Emperor (some weird religion strategy used). I puppeted another civ city and nope - no Monument or Aqueduct there. After I built fourth "normal" city - Monument and Aqueduct appeared there.

The Pilgrim said:

...I have hard time benchmarking too. Feel so clueless..

Click to expand...

They kind of dropped the ball on this one ... Its very hard to measure/compare performance between different play thoughts ...


Something like per turn & accumulated beakers, food, production, gold, ,culture, faith ,happiness ... graphs that you could compare between play troughs (and thus be able to evaluate various strategy effectiveness ) would've been only fitting for such a complex strategy game ...

stealth_nsk said:

Just checked, that's wrong.

I got 3 cities and complete Tradition tree on Emperor (some weird religion strategy used). I puppeted another civ city and nope - no Monument or Aqueduct there. After I built fourth "normal" city - Monument and Aqueduct appeared there.

Click to expand...

I do remember puppeting a second city when I've only had my capital -> it got the free monument ... Do not remember the aqueduct situation ...

stealth_nsk said:

Just checked, that's wrong.

I got 3 cities and complete Tradition tree on Emperor (some weird religion strategy used). I puppeted another civ city and nope - no Monument or Aqueduct there. After I built fourth "normal" city - Monument and Aqueduct appeared there.

Click to expand...

Hm... Now I'm confused. Looking at that closely, I assumed that maybe they become free if they survive. And if they are destroyed upon capture, then you'll get them in native city. But's it's even weirder.


Any ideas? I've checked Rammy's SP's. 1 Tradition.
We need vexing et. al. here.

peddroelm said:

They kind of dropped the ball on this one ... Its very hard to measure/compare performance between different play thoughts ...


Something like per turn & accumulated beakers, food, production, gold, ,culture, faith ,happiness ... graphs that you could compare between play troughs (and thus be able to evaluate various strategy effectiveness ) would've been only fitting for such a complex strategy game ...

Click to expand...

I meant the values, not the parameters.

peddroelm said:

They kind of dropped the ball on this one ... Its very hard to measure/compare performance between different play thoughts ...


Something like per turn & accumulated beakers, food, production, gold, ,culture, faith ,happiness ... graphs that you could compare between play troughs (and thus be able to evaluate various strategy effectiveness ) would've been only fitting for such a complex strategy game ...

Click to expand...

If you resign you can check the replay graphs, they have bpt information among other things

Pilgrim: From what I can tell you get the free building in the youngest (not sure if it depends on date of construction or date of conquest) available non-puppet city. You probably did the same I did: pop free monuments while the city was a puppet but get the finisher after you annexed it.

alpaca said:

If you resign you can check the replay graphs, they have bpt information among other things

Click to expand...

The endgame graphs/statistics are very poorly done(lack a ton of crucial information) and I fail to see the point of them not being accessible from the game interface at any point in the game (for your own civ ..) ...

alpaca said:

Pilgrim: From what I can tell you get the free building in the youngest (not sure if it depends on date of construction or date of conquest) available non-puppet city. You probably did the same I did: pop free monuments while the city was a puppet but get the finisher after you annexed it.

Click to expand...

At some point I thought it is determined by the time of settling... but, look at above screenshot. Lampang is a puppet, it wasn't annexed. I had three cities of my own, all with free monuments and aqueducts and two puppets, one with free aqueduct.
In other game I've got two cities setup, then puppet one, then settle two more of my own. Got free monuments in all four native cities and aqueducts in first three + a puppet. It didn't have a monument from the previous owner, so the theory you get these building if they haven't survive upon capture doesn't apply either. I'm puzzled.

I would like to see a video walkthrough of the approach discussed in this thread. Does anyone plan on doing that?

The Pilgrim said:

At some point I thought it is determined by the time of settling... but, look at above screenshot. Lampang is a puppet, it wasn't annexed. I had three cities of my own, all with free monuments and aqueducts and two puppets, one with free aqueduct.
In other game I've got two cities setup, then puppet one, then settle two more of my own. Got free monuments in all four native cities and aqueducts in first three + a puppet. It didn't have a monument from the previous owner, so the theory you get these building if they haven't survive upon capture doesn't apply either. I'm puzzled.

Click to expand...

If I understand correctly, these buildings appear free is they DID survive the conquest, so:
- No one seen free Monument in puppets, as culture buildings are always destroyed.
- Free Aqueducts could be in puppets, but only if they were there before the conquest.

To check this, someone need to conquest city with aqueduct before the tradition finisher and check if it become free on opening it.

Any way, the behavior looks like a bug for me.

Ok, I think I figured it out. Puppets do get free buildings but not retroactively. They can get them if they are already captured when you pick Legalism or finisher. If you capture them after that, they won't, even when you have less that 4 cities. In such case cities that are settled next will enjoy the freebies. As for aqueduct that becomes free, I still can't say. Following the same logic - probably not. Although I was granted free monument in puppet that was in the process of building a monument. . I believe this is not what the devs meant and wonder what was it.

Dactyl said:

I would like to see a video walkthrough of the approach discussed in this thread. Does anyone plan on doing that?

Click to expand...

Sure! It's already in my plans. I only need to sharp some things here and there and it will be online as soon as i can find enough spare time to play

Question about settled gs :

When do you decide to not settle gs? Bad habit here, i have 2 gs smoking and chilling with some nice girls into my capital(yes they are free to do this ). I guess for now that it's better to settle them ASAP.