Does anyone play very long using the Start as Minor Civ option?

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Cyrusfan

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I'm just wondering because in my current game I'm nearing Sedentary Lifestyle and none of the AIs have built a second city. It seems to me they might be too worried about building military units because they're at war with everyone, but I thought I should ask if others are having similar experiences.

Otherwise I suspect the build times may be messing with the AI (as Tribes are too pricy to start, or due to the lengthy build time, offer too much opportunity for the AI to decide it would rather have something else.
 
Cyrusfan said:
I'm just wondering because in my current game I'm nearing Sedentary Lifestyle and none of the AIs have built a second city. It seems to me they might be too worried about building military units because they're at war with everyone, but I thought I should ask if others are having similar experiences.

Otherwise I suspect the build times may be messing with the AI (as Tribes are too pricy to start, or due to the lengthy build time, offer too much opportunity for the AI to decide it would rather have something else.
Click to expand...

I do, and I have AIs with multiple cities. Don't think its that (there was a bug that had exactly that effect but it was fixed a couple of versions ago).

Clearly something is stopping the AIs founding cities since several people have reported it, but I have no idea what currently. AI logs would be helpful.
 
Here is an example - they aren't building 2nd city in this game either. Just turned the logging on and ran a couple of turns, here is the result.
 

Attachments

  • BBAI.rar
    6.4 KB · Views: 57
Doesn't seem to be a problem for me; all the original civs in my current gigantic 5 preset game are now utterly enormous, with Egypt at a whopping 23 cities that are all somehow not unhappy. It's turn 2,448 and we're all chugging along nicely.

Didn't seem to happen in my other games either; my first game was a 8 civ start with tons more being born through revolutions, and the initial 8 minor civs all expanded quite handily after hitting tribalism.
 
Here's a save and about an hour's worth of logging.
View attachment 326918
View attachment 326917

I've seen at least four of the guys on the scoreboard research tribalism, and three move on to Chiefdom, and it's been a long time since the first couple did. I would be surprised if anyone didn't have Tribalism yet.

Also you may notice that I can build the Mastadon and Deer wonders in my capital, but not in Utica despite having both herds there. The pedia entry suggests there's supposed to be an "or" prereq between the herd and respective myth buildings, but if I had to guess, that might be what's wrong.

I probably won't continue this game unless there's something else you want checked.
 
Are you sure they don't have a second city? If they do, and you just haven't found their second city yet, the city counter in the scoreboard will say they have only 1.
 
I've got five hunters, five rangers, and 6-8 ambushers currently on automated hunting, so I'm fairly confident that I'm seeing the area around their starter cities on a fairly regular basis. I suppose I could check worldbuilder to be absolutely sure, but I think their scores would reflect territory expansion by now.
 
There was a bug before where the AI kept building too many units as it valued those with ceretain promotions (Hunter I promotion) as value 0. That might have kept your opponents from having enough income to even consider expanding.

If you've got the latest SVN you can enter Worldbuilder and check, if they have way, way too many units you could always remove a bunch of them and see if that changes anything (some turns later of course).

Cheers
 
Eek. I checked Washington to my NE and Nidaros to my W (have to switch viewports) and they both had stacks of 30 Atl-Atls in their cities and standing next to them.

Fiddling with buttons, I accidentally assigned Sy Ara (even further to my W) to myself, and then to the barbarians. I figure it will reemerge as a civ shortly with few units, and we'll see what it does from there.
 
Cyrusfan said:
Eek. I checked Washington to my NE and Nidaros to my W (have to switch viewports) and they both had stacks of 30 Atl-Atls in their cities and standing next to them.

Fiddling with buttons, I accidentally assigned Sy Ara (even further to my W) to myself, and then to the barbarians. I figure it will reemerge as a civ shortly with few units, and we'll see what it does from there.
Click to expand...

Show Koshling an AI log with that, that is definitely a bad AI decision.
 
ls612 said:
Show Koshling an AI log with that, that is definitely a bad AI decision.
Click to expand...

Yeh, but unless the game was played entirely under an SVN after the last fix to that (I.e. In about he past 2 days) such a buildup could have occurred prior to the fix. Once they have build up defenders nothing will repurpose them - unit AI types are pretty much fixed when a unit is trained, so a defender will always stay in a defensive role, eve if it might be better moved to an attack role. I might try to change that sometime, but it's fairly fundamental in the AI structure.
 
Sorry, I'll leave logging on all the time in the future. Here's what I've got now.
View attachment 326968
View attachment 326969
It looks like the Mongols renamed Sy Ara to Kankorum and the population dropped to 3 (had been 11) so it would be a while before they could expand. I'll be playing without the minor civ start to see if things are different that way, but it takes a while to get back to this point.
 
Cyrusfan said:
Here's a save and about an hour's worth of logging.
View attachment 326918
View attachment 326917

I've seen at least four of the guys on the scoreboard research tribalism, and three move on to Chiefdom, and it's been a long time since the first couple did. I would be surprised if anyone didn't have Tribalism yet.

Also you may notice that I can build the Mastadon and Deer wonders in my capital, but not in Utica despite having both herds there. The pedia entry suggests there's supposed to be an "or" prereq between the herd and respective myth buildings, but if I had to guess, that might be what's wrong.

I probably won't continue this game unless there's something else you want checked.
Click to expand...

Wrong log I'm afraid. It's 'BBAI.log' that I need. I'll look at the save game though and see what I can find.

Sgtslick said:
Here is an example - they aren't building 2nd city in this game either. Just turned the logging on and ran a couple of turns, here is the result.
Click to expand...

This one definately shows a probable issue, but I really need the save game to go with it - do you have it?
 
Fix on the SVN now (at least I hope so - will take a bit of playing to be sure, which you guys can do ;-p)

I found two bugs, one new and very major, one old and contributary. Both now fixed. These were:
  1. Total garrison strength was being miscalculated as 100 times weaker than it should have been!! (hence the AI felt it was perpetually very weakly defended)
  2. Some old BBAI code that is intended to ensure that the AI garrisons its beachead cities when invading a new continent, was having unintended side effects in combination with a large home continent and start-as-minors. Basically this code increase the number of needed defenders in proportion to the landmass' total (known) enemy population if the city owner has less than 4 (or one third of the total there) cities on the landmass in question. This was incorrectly kicking in on the home land mass becaue everyone has less than 4 cities for ages, and everyone is an enemy due to start as minors

I changed (2) to not apply to the home landmass and also to half the weight of enemies that are only enemies due to minor-civedness.
 
Right. Good. Well, not good but good that it's (hopefully) fixed.
Will restart again for testing.

Cheers
 
Koshling said:
Fix on the SVN now (at least I hope so - will take a bit of playing to be sure, which you guys can do ;-p)

I found two bugs, one new and very major, one old and contributary. Both now fixed. These were:
  1. Total garrison strength was being miscalculated as 100 times weaker than it should have been!! (hence the AI felt it was perpetually very weakly defended)
  2. Some old BBAI code that is intended to ensure that the AI garrisons its beachead cities when invading a new continent, was having unintended side effects in combination with a large home continent and start-as-minors. Basically this code increase the number of needed defenders in proportion to the landmass' total (known) enemy population if the city owner has less than 4 (or one third of the total there) cities on the landmass in question. This was incorrectly kicking in on the home land mass becaue everyone has less than 4 cities for ages, and everyone is an enemy due to start as minors

I changed (2) to not apply to the home landmass and also to half the weight of enemies that are only enemies due to minor-civedness.
Click to expand...

If the SVN is downloaded and installed, will it make current saves unplayable?
 
Koshling said:
Wrong log I'm afraid. It's 'BBAI.log' that I need. I'll look at the save game though and see what I can find.
?
Click to expand...

Where is BBAI.log? The log I gave you is from the location I gave the game when I turned the logging on and the Log folder indicated in the c2c FAQ only has the following:
CvXMLLoadUtilitySetMod_MLFEnumeratedFiles, init, MLF, PythonErr2, resmgr, xml

I've started new games since then so it would have been overwritten (the one I posted seems to just keep writing at the end, so I have to delete it every once in a while), but it would probably be good to know for future reference.

I'll double check that I've got level 3 logging on, but I'm pretty sure I do.
 
Cyrusfan said:
Where is BBAI.log? The log I gave you is from the location I gave the game when I turned the logging on and the Log folder indicated in the c2c FAQ only has the following:
CvXMLLoadUtilitySetMod_MLFEnumeratedFiles, init, MLF, PythonErr2, resmgr, xml

I've started new games since then so it would have been overwritten (the one I posted seems to just keep writing at the end, so I have to delete it every once in a while), but it would probably be good to know for future reference.

I'll double check that I've got level 3 logging on, but I'm pretty sure I do.
Click to expand...

Same place if yo have turned it on. To turn it on go o the 'Logs' tab of the BUG screen and set BBAI log level to 3.
 
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