Bebekija
King
Go for it Soundj!
SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
soundjata
reluctant warrior
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,283
- No AI met yet.
- We are at the North end of our continent with tundra not far away (barbs
), a lot of brown land, several food resources and a whole lot of flood plains to the West.
- Lucky forest growth 1NW of the corn tile.
- Buddha was founded T7
Points to discuss:
- Research BW or Pottery? (or something else?)
- Worker movement
I'd go for BW first because BW > Pottery should be ok to build cottages in our second city (if we decide to settle in the middle of FP paradise next) and we don't need a granary too soon in Paris. Spawn busters will be required on the other hand.
(BW needs 14 turns. 9+14=23)
(worker is ready on turn 9+7=16)
T16 worker partial road 1E
T17-T21 worker farms corn
T22 worker goes to Paris
T23 lucky copper on the hill 1N2W of Paris
(maybe 
)
How many land tiles on the map?
Need some time to work on the test game. In the current one we are at the south of our continent
I refrain from posting the save until the end of my turnset and I'll pass the game at turn 23 if consensus on BW.
q.u.a.c.k (I'll find a rap song for that when I'm bored)
- We are at the North end of our continent with tundra not far away (barbs
), a lot of brown land, several food resources and a whole lot of flood plains to the West.- Lucky forest growth 1NW of the corn tile.
- Buddha was founded T7
Spoiler :
Points to discuss:
- Research BW or Pottery? (or something else?)
- Worker movement
I'd go for BW first because BW > Pottery should be ok to build cottages in our second city (if we decide to settle in the middle of FP paradise next) and we don't need a granary too soon in Paris. Spawn busters will be required on the other hand.
(BW needs 14 turns. 9+14=23)
(worker is ready on turn 9+7=16)
T16 worker partial road 1E
T17-T21 worker farms corn
T22 worker goes to Paris
T23 lucky copper on the hill 1N2W of Paris
(maybe )How many land tiles on the map?
Spoiler :
Need some time to work on the test game. In the current one we are at the south of our continent
I refrain from posting the save until the end of my turnset and I'll pass the game at turn 23 if consensus on BW.
q.u.a.c.k (I'll find a rap song for that when I'm bored)
Quack.
Yes, BW next. No vertical potential.
Fishing looks better after BW, we need more food/hammer before we build 3 cities. Fishing can also save some beakers on pottery. BW->fishing->pottery->sailing->masonary. Anyway, let's check whether the warrior can find better spot first.
T22, worker doesn't need to go to Paris, it's better to complete the road.
T23, if there is no copper, I prefer irrigating the FP.
Yes, BW next. No vertical potential.
Fishing looks better after BW, we need more food/hammer before we build 3 cities. Fishing can also save some beakers on pottery. BW->fishing->pottery->sailing->masonary. Anyway, let's check whether the warrior can find better spot first.
T22, worker doesn't need to go to Paris, it's better to complete the road.
T23, if there is no copper, I prefer irrigating the FP.
Since almost all other AIs' capital are non coastal, so the GLH should be quite safe, however, Oracle could go before 1500BC in any emperor map, so usually securing Oracle is the 1st goal. However, we need to see more surrounding tiles to spot the 2nd and 3rd city sites before running such a test. For now, you can try to see how to produce the 1st settler optimally.
soundjata
reluctant warrior
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,283
For your testing pleasure. (We are isolated)
Edit: First test
T43 settler
2 workers
3 warriors and 1 more next turn
3 forests chopped
No whip
Tech BW>Fish>Pot>(one turn from)Myst.
Tech speed would be faster if we cottage the FP obviously but that would probably ruin the whipping potential of Paname (Paname is Paris for me
)
Be careful, the test game lacks a forest on the silk tile
Edit: First test
T43 settler
2 workers
3 warriors and 1 more next turn
3 forests chopped
No whip
Tech BW>Fish>Pot>(one turn from)Myst.
Tech speed would be faster if we cottage the FP obviously but that would probably ruin the whipping potential of Paname (Paname is Paris for me
)Be careful, the test game lacks a forest on the silk tile
Ran some tests. There are 2 interesting plans.
Tech: Pottery->BW->AH
1. starts settler at size 4 and 2 pop whip it, which results in T38 settler
2. 2 pop whip granary 1st and then 2 pop whip settler, which results in T44 settler, working on 2 cottages.
I'm not very sure about which way to go, if there are strong commercial resources nearby, then 1, otherwise, I probably lean toward 2.
Tech: Pottery->BW->AH
1. starts settler at size 4 and 2 pop whip it, which results in T38 settler
2. 2 pop whip granary 1st and then 2 pop whip settler, which results in T44 settler, working on 2 cottages.
I'm not very sure about which way to go, if there are strong commercial resources nearby, then 1, otherwise, I probably lean toward 2.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Test game! 
Five trials. The research path was the same in all cases: BW-Fish-Pots-Myst. The number of beakers produced was also the same up to the moment when the settler is trained.
Case 1. Worker warrior worker settler
T38 settler. One mine. Four forests chopped. Paris size 3.
Case 2. Worker warrior-to size-2 worker finish-warrior settler-at-size-3
As above except that we have started a second mine and there is more overflow from the settler. Therefore this is strictly superior to the above.
Case 3. Worker warrior-to-size-2 settler finish-warrior worker
T32 settler. T44 second worker.
Two forests chopped and a third partially finished for the next worker. I assume here that the worker finishes the chop and then moves off with the settler.
Case 4. As above but train the second worker before finishing the warrior.
T32 settler. T38 second worker. Three hammers in the warrior are lost to decay.
Case 5. Worker warrior-to-size-3 settler finish-warrior.
T34 settler. T41 Second worker. Two forests chopped.
IMO, Case 4 is the best choice. Getting the settler out early increases our research rate and our general development. And three decayed hammers is a small price to pay for getting the second worker out six turns earlier.
Edit: xpost with Duckweed
Edit2:
Case 6: as Case 4 but revolt to after the settler is trained and whip the second worker.
T32 settler. T35 second worker. T37 second warrior. No hammer decay.
In this case, it is better to skip Fishing and head straight for Pottery, especially as the second city will probably go somewhere on the flood plain to the west. That should connect the two cities immediately.
Five trials. The research path was the same in all cases: BW-Fish-Pots-Myst. The number of beakers produced was also the same up to the moment when the settler is trained.
Case 1. Worker warrior worker settler
T38 settler. One mine. Four forests chopped. Paris size 3.
Case 2. Worker warrior-to size-2 worker finish-warrior settler-at-size-3
As above except that we have started a second mine and there is more overflow from the settler. Therefore this is strictly superior to the above.
Case 3. Worker warrior-to-size-2 settler finish-warrior worker
T32 settler. T44 second worker.
Two forests chopped and a third partially finished for the next worker. I assume here that the worker finishes the chop and then moves off with the settler.
Case 4. As above but train the second worker before finishing the warrior.
T32 settler. T38 second worker. Three hammers in the warrior are lost to decay.
Case 5. Worker warrior-to-size-3 settler finish-warrior.
T34 settler. T41 Second worker. Two forests chopped.
IMO, Case 4 is the best choice. Getting the settler out early increases our research rate and our general development. And three decayed hammers is a small price to pay for getting the second worker out six turns earlier.
Edit: xpost with Duckweed
Edit2:
Case 6: as Case 4 but revolt to after the settler is trained and whip the second worker.
T32 settler. T35 second worker. T37 second warrior. No hammer decay.
In this case, it is better to skip Fishing and head straight for Pottery, especially as the second city will probably go somewhere on the flood plain to the west. That should connect the two cities immediately.
I went for another test with Fishing->Pottery->BW->AH->Mys till T51, 0 forest chopped
had to go for T38 settler this time due to the delayed BW.
Good tests, Abegweit. Chopping forests gives faster 2nd city, but slows down the research and leaves less forests for capital.
had to go for T38 settler this time due to the delayed BW.
Good tests, Abegweit. Chopping forests gives faster 2nd city, but slows down the research and leaves less forests for capital.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
I have to disagree. On the contrary, a faster second city accelerates research. You immediately gain 1 Comm net and the difference just gets bigger as time goes on. I've attached my opening played through T51 to match yours. At this point both my cities are bigger than yours and I am producing 7 more comm. Orleans has just finished its gran. Paris is well into one but has stopped to build a worker. Orleans will probably start a settler when it reaches its happy cap in a couple of turns. This probably is not optimal. Maybe Paris should have been allowed to grow to size 5.
It's true that 3 forests in Paris are dead but that's what they are for. There are still plenty left to chop out the Oracle.
Tech path was BW-Pots-AH-Fishing-Hunting-Myst, due in one turn. I probably should have skipped Fishing.
I agree that you managed a better economy by skipping fishing.
However, the major problem is still the forests.
We are going to chop at least 3~4 forests to Oracle if without Marble, which leaves a handful forests for numerous late wonders, which can only be hurried by forests. This game is a long-lasting one and that's why I prefer to save forests and try to pop whip instead. Those forests can easily get multiplied by Math+forge bonus at least.
Now come to the comparison
1. The test game has some errors -- the sheep tile has no forest, the city center is GH, hence the hammer yield in the 2nd city is not much different.
2. As you see, even without the 3 forest chop, the commerce and hammer yield in my game is similar to yours. I had a granary in capital and 1 more warrior, which is similar as 2 pops.
Therefore, the major benefit of your game is the 1 more pop in 2nd city.
However, the major problem is still the forests.
We are going to chop at least 3~4 forests to Oracle if without Marble, which leaves a handful forests for numerous late wonders, which can only be hurried by forests. This game is a long-lasting one and that's why I prefer to save forests and try to pop whip instead. Those forests can easily get multiplied by Math+forge bonus at least.
Now come to the comparison
1. The test game has some errors -- the sheep tile has no forest, the city center is GH, hence the hammer yield in the 2nd city is not much different.
2. As you see, even without the 3 forest chop, the commerce and hammer yield in my game is similar to yours. I had a granary in capital and 1 more warrior, which is similar as 2 pops.
Therefore, the major benefit of your game is the 1 more pop in 2nd city.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
I agree that fishing should be skipped. Hunting too.I agree that you managed a better economy by skipping fishing.
The level is Emperor. I would prefer to get an early lead on the AI. Then we have no issue about needing to save forests. BTW, there are still ten. One of them had to go in order to build a cottage anyway. Earlier you said that we need research. This means growing cities instead of whipping them. Given that our capital is short of food, this is even more imperative.
The commerce is not similar at all. I am netting 22 and you are doing 15. This is because I have five cottages and am working them all.
The major benefit is a 50% faster research rate and no whip anger. Also I am much closer to a having a third worker and a third city than you are.
Perhaps even more important, I have played both approaches forward by teching BW-Pots (or vice-versa)-AH-Myst-Poly-Priest. Because BW first leads to larger cities and more research, it gets the Oracle about four turns earlier. I have T62 vs. T66 but I think that both results could be improved by a turn or two.
If we don't prioritize TGL, I prefer BW->pottery->AH->Mysticism
Here's my test file.
T52, the pop is 5+2, 2 trees in Paris chopped. 2 granaries are almost done, 2 warriors, 2 workers.
The granary in Paris can help whip settler and overflow to wonder, so we can keep more trees for the future wonders. The 6->3 whip is also better than 4->2 whip.
I just pray that AIs don't complete TGL before turn 80.
Here's my test file.
T52, the pop is 5+2, 2 trees in Paris chopped. 2 granaries are almost done, 2 warriors, 2 workers.
The granary in Paris can help whip settler and overflow to wonder, so we can keep more trees for the future wonders. The 6->3 whip is also better than 4->2 whip.
I just pray that AIs don't complete TGL before turn 80.
soundjata
reluctant warrior
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,283
Nice tests Ducks, keep em going
The debates I can see so far:
Chop Paris or don't chop Paris?
This should be solved by a comparison of Oracle dates.
One extra chop is justified if we can get TO one turn sooner (especially if we plan to complete it nearby the 1500 BC line)
BW>Pottery or Pottery>BW?
It would be really handy to get a consensus here, and allow another turnset including ~10 turns of exploration. So as to get a better accuracy on the test game.
Could someone present a general framework for this debate? Is it simply an "early research" vs "early production" debate, what are the trade-offs and the consequences of finding lucky copper sooner or a gold mine in the FP region?
The debates I can see so far:
Chop Paris or don't chop Paris?
This should be solved by a comparison of Oracle dates.
One extra chop is justified if we can get TO one turn sooner (especially if we plan to complete it nearby the 1500 BC line)
BW>Pottery or Pottery>BW?
It would be really handy to get a consensus here, and allow another turnset including ~10 turns of exploration. So as to get a better accuracy on the test game.
Could someone present a general framework for this debate? Is it simply an "early research" vs "early production" debate, what are the trade-offs and the consequences of finding lucky copper sooner or a gold mine in the FP region?
@all
Please use the new save for tests as there are major mistakes in soundjata's save.
@Abegweit
The commerce difference is temporary, once my cities grow to the same size in a few turns, they will be similar. I could manage T60 Oracle with total 4 forests chopped, or T63 with total 3 forests chopped. I believe that you might do better, but won't be too much different. The saved forests will get amplified by later bonus and speed up some important wonders.
Please use the new save for tests as there are major mistakes in soundjata's save.
@Abegweit
The commerce difference is temporary, once my cities grow to the same size in a few turns, they will be similar. I could manage T60 Oracle with total 4 forests chopped, or T63 with total 3 forests chopped. I believe that you might do better, but won't be too much different. The saved forests will get amplified by later bonus and speed up some important wonders.
soundjata
reluctant warrior
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,283
@ Duckweed
I tried to reproduce your previous save (-1960) but I can't . Almost there...
Your approach (no chop before TO) is seducing but T60 is not 100% safe.
Aren't you willing to sacrifice a couple of forests if that meant 2 turns earlier Oracle?
Back to testing
Edit: A couple of warriors (only) at T60, isn't it dangerous?
If we were able to skip AH for some time, that would put less restrain on our tech pace toward Priesthood/sailing/Masonry.
I tried to reproduce your previous save (-1960) but
I can't . Almost there...Your approach (no chop before TO) is seducing but T60 is not 100% safe.
Aren't you willing to sacrifice a couple of forests if that meant 2 turns earlier Oracle?
Back to testing
Edit: A couple of warriors (only) at T60, isn't it dangerous?
If we were able to skip AH for some time, that would put less restrain on our tech pace toward Priesthood/sailing/Masonry.
