SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

Manco Capac · Oct 13, 2012

OK, WDWTSTJY calculator completed (v2). I tested for naval units (which are more complicated than earth units), it works. Sea-based techs are testable now. Same for airforces and world projects.

Basically, simulations are workable for all techs in the tech tree.

That calculator will prove really strong later or other SGOTM's.
And given tech trades are a prime action in all games, it is always a useful tool.

I let you guys discuss about Walter Wolf turnset. I'm a bit exhausted now.

Walter_Wolf · Oct 13, 2012

Spoiler :

Walter_Wolf · Oct 13, 2012

PPP for partial turnset #6, T49 - T55 v4

The grand strategy from the 1st page with a few questions added.

Spoiler :

We've been discussing some of the questions I put in, and others will get discussed as the game progresses I guess.

Decathlon status:

Spoiler :

Technology

Research

T49 0%
100 % T50 - T55 while researching Meditation, and Priesthood.

T56 - Math

Diplomacy
Accept demands from Ramesses if it's not Alphabet. For the record, we already have -1 " Refused to stop trading with our WE". Trade BW for Alphabet with him ASAP.
Declare war on Brennus T49.

PPP for city builds and units orders.

Paris

T49 - build Library working Cottage, 2x PH forest, Silk and plains forest. Gives 24 hammers, Library completed T50, shulec suggested this. It squeezes out a few more coins T49.
T50 T55 build Settler working 3 FP cottages and 2 scientists. Gives a G scientist T 67/68.

Orleans

T49 - build warrior working 2 cottages
T52 - switch a cottage to sheep pasture
T54 - grows, add cotage, warrior produced, garrison, build 1T research
T55 - Eiffel finishes cottage.

Workers
Eiffel

T49 - T52 pasture sheep
T53 - T55 finish cottage 1E of Orleans

Warriors
Adam - fogbust the pigs/wine area from the current location.
Joan - unfog the north and fogbust on the "Warrior Spawnbust" sign tile 2S of deer.
Bill - Garrison Paris.
T54 Orleans warrior garrison Orleans.

Eve/Louis/Slave combo all the credits to LowtherCastle

.

T49 - Eve gets teleported 1S1W of stone tile after the DoW. Capture the worker.

T50 - Louis move 1S1W. Smell the air.
Slave 1N to check 1S of Bitracte. If clear,
Eve 1N1W to the forest,
Slave 1W to the forest where Eve is. Hope to lure a unit from the city and make louis later moves safe.
Louis move 1S if it's clear.

T51 - Louis 1S to forest. If copper is clear, go to copper.
Slave 1W, 1NW to the silk
Eve scout 1S1W.
I think it's better not to risk Eve's life by moving 1W LowtherCastle suggested. If Slave stumbles accross a unit with the 1W move, consider western escape route.

T52 - Louis pillages copper
Slave joins Louis if the "silk route" worked.

End of turn reminder
Save Game at the beginning of each turn.
Take a screenshot of the demographics and espionage screen each turn.
Check zoomed-out culture screen for Ramesess or "alien"

culture.
Check if an AI entered WHEOOHRN mode (fist icon).

Passive intelligence data:
Note sabotage building values for Brennus's cities each turn.
Note AI's score each turn.
Note AI's power ratio against us each turn (it's set to 4 decimal places in my BUFFY settings since the last SGOTM).

Stopping conditions
Meet a new AI.
Unexpected War Declaration.
Find Stone or Marble while exploring.
Something weird happens.
Barbarian warrior/archer entering our culture.

Walter_Wolf · Oct 13, 2012

There wasn't really a lot of feedback on Kaitzilla's four different path options, and the 4th seems like the strongest play (if the stars allign), so I would push the game in that direction.

I might be playing up to T55 tomorrow in about 21 - 22 hours from now.

Provided the team agrees we start the settler in Paris and run two scientists there.

T55 is the point we have to decide about the Oracle location, and might see if Ramesses is researching BW and if we can trade for it.

We can still slow build the oracle in Paris, but it slows down the research a bit.
In the hopes we get the slave safely home, the settler in Paris is a good build. A little bit of gambling can give huge benefits sometimes, and every little push forward is a huge step later in the game.

Please give some feedback

cheers

shulec · Oct 13, 2012

Looks good. I think we have effectively beaten the dead horse!

LowtherCastle · Oct 13, 2012

PPP looks fine by me.

I think I have worked a safer solution for the slave. Here it is:

On each turn the slave scouts ahead before moving Eve to that tile. The scouting moves are:

T50 1W
T51 1NW
T52 1W

This is all relatively safe terrain, in all likelihood, because it's withing Brennus borders but Brennus has no interest in that area, most likely, unless a settler is passing through to the SW.

Notice that the T52 1W scourting move, along with Louis, allows us to see every single tile surrounding the silks, so we're not gambling at all. That's why I like this better. It slows the slave down by one turn, but in my T64 Orleans Oracle, I took that into consideration. It works, just barely.

If you decide to do it this way, the worker will be 1 turn behind Louis. I'd go ahead and scout ahead with Louis on T52, because barbs are less likely to encroach if Louis goes in and back out immediately. THen the slave catches up in the jungle, as needed.

Kaitzilla · Oct 13, 2012

Walter_Wolf said:
There wasn't really a lot of feedback on Kaitzilla's four different path options, and the 4th seems like the strongest play (if the stars allign), so I would push the game in that direction.

I might be playing up to T55 tomorrow in about 21 - 22 hours from now.

Provided the team agrees we start the settler in Paris and run two scientists there.

T55 is the point we have to decide about the Oracle location, and might see if Ramesses is researching BW and if we can trade for it.

We can still slow build the oracle in Paris, but it slows down the research a bit.
In the hopes we get the slave safely home, the settler in Paris is a good build. A little bit of gambling can give huge benefits sometimes, and every little push forward is a huge step later in the game.

Please give some feedback

cheers

2 Scientists in Paris? Why not just play a One city challenge then?
So who builds the spy? What happens if Slave dies on the way back? Option 4 is way too tech-heavy in my opinion.

We held up on another settler in Paris to go warrior->library because it led to a faster Oracle. #4 goes even more tech heavy to go for a slower Oracle and delays a settler even more.
I would argue that another coastal city could be building spies, a scout workboat looking for the next AI, or a library to work on Great Scientist while the capital continues working cottages.

WastinTime · Oct 13, 2012

PPP looks good.

Yet another reason I like Oracle in Orleans is that we have a GS coming in Paris which could end up being an early prophet.

mabraham · Oct 13, 2012

I like the PPP generally, but I agree with...

Kaitzilla said:
2 Scientists in Paris? Why not just play a One city challenge then?
So who builds the spy? What happens if Slave dies on the way back? Option 4 is way too tech-heavy in my opinion.

We held up on another settler in Paris to go warrior->library because it led to a faster Oracle. #4 goes even more tech heavy to go for a slower Oracle and delays a settler even more.
I would argue that another coastal city could be building spies, a scout workboat looking for the next AI, or a library to work on Great Scientist while the capital continues working cottages.

We definitely want an academy about the time we get CS and switch to Bur, but the benefits of getting our 3rd and 4th city established sooner are also appreciable, if less tangible. For example, getting the corn-fish site settled can probably grow on the improved corn, putting some hammers on a library and workboat so that we 2-pop whip the library and finish the WB from the overflow, regrow to size 4 and then spam the scientists for the GSci. Meanwhile Paris is still free for settlers or workers and keeps growing the cottages (which offsets some of the loss from later academy; and the benefit of the early academy only accrues when we are running science, anyway).

Kaitzilla · Oct 13, 2012

Tachywaxon said:
OK, WDWTSTJY calculator completed (v2). I tested for naval units (which are more complicated than earth units), it works. Sea-based techs are testable now. Same for airforces and world projects.

Basically, simulations are workable for all techs in the tech tree.
That calculator will prove really strong later or other SGOTM's.
And given tech trades are a prime action in all games, it is always a useful tool.

I let you guys discuss about Walter Wolf turnset. I'm a bit exhausted now.

Very sexy app! :goodjob:

Maybe a small note that the human player does not count as a contact for the AI and thus should not be counted.

That must have taken ages to put together and code read.

bcool · Oct 14, 2012

I like option 3

Walter_Wolf · Oct 14, 2012

Sorry for the confusion. The majority seems to not like the latest plan.

I suggest we go ahead with the PPP v3 T49 - T56 from a few pages back.

That would be kaitzilla's plan 3.

There wasn't much feedback on that one, so please provide some now.

Playin g time as stated yesterday.

Kaitzilla · Oct 14, 2012

mabraham said:
I like the PPP generally, but I agree with...

We definitely want an academy about the time we get CS and switch to Bur, but the benefits of getting our 3rd and 4th city established sooner are also appreciable, if less tangible. For example, getting the corn-fish site settled can probably grow on the improved corn, putting some hammers on a library and workboat so that we 2-pop whip the library and finish the WB from the overflow, regrow to size 4 and then spam the scientists for the GSci. Meanwhile Paris is still free for settlers or workers and keeps growing the cottages (which offsets some of the loss from later academy; and the benefit of the early academy only accrues when we are running science, anyway).

Heh, I don't really see a way to compromise here.

We have to pick a plan.

So far I count:

Plan#4 5 likes
Plan#3 2 likes
Plan#2 as fallback for Plan#3 1 like
Plan#1 0 likes

So Plan #4 is in the lead if I'm reading the tea leaves right

I guess my main opposition to #4 is my feeling that one cottaged capital tops out at 400-500 bpt and we need a whole continent to really reach space and all 10 goals quickly.
Our teching really opens up once we make contact with the other continent because trading techs is superior than teching alone on Emperor difficulty.
I can see the argument that a small empire might be better for achieving contact with the other continent than a large empire, but a large empire is better placed to capitalize on gains.

My experience is more into smashing things than of unreal teching speed. Tell me that founding our 3rd city around 1000BC(T75) is ok and I'll consent to Plan #4.

mabraham · Oct 14, 2012

Walter_Wolf said:
That would be kaitzilla's plan 3.

There wasn't much feedback on that one, so please provide some now.

Plan 3 also looks fine to me. I could live with plan 3 and starting a settler T50 in Paris, but I assume the worker is needed for the Oracle push. T63 is fine for the Oracle (the earliest I ever saw a non-Ind AI build one was T64). Presumably building this worker in Paris will free up the slave somewhat, but those decisions will be outside the scope of this turn set.

Kaitzilla said:
Heh, I don't really see a way to compromise here.

We have to pick a plan.

So far I count:

Plan#4 5 likes
Plan#3 2 likes
Plan#2 as fallback for Plan#3 1 like
Plan#1 0 likes

So Plan #4 is in the lead if I'm reading the tea leaves right

I guess my main opposition to #4 is my feeling that one cottaged capital tops out at 400-500 bpt and we need a whole continent to really reach space and all 10 goals quickly.
Our teching really opens up once we make contact with the other continent because trading techs is superior than teching alone on Emperor difficulty.
I can see the argument that a small empire might be better for achieving contact with the other continent than a large empire, but a large empire is better placed to capitalize on gains.

My experience is more into smashing things than of unreal teching speed. Tell me that founding our 3rd city around 1000BC(T75) is ok and I'll consent to Plan #4.

I can't promise that, as I don't think I've played a non-SGOTM in years. But I see the fast Bur capital as our primary way to get fast access to Edu (Oxford), Optics (AI contacts), maybe Theol (AP) and maybe Music (GArtist for GAge). It will need support in the midgame and later. At about that point we hope to start to leave the AIs behind. Ideally, we bribe wars on the other continent when we're done trading with them, and arrive late with tanks (or something) to Dominate.

Maximising the tech rate now (i.e. plan 4?) gets to the Bur point faster, but growing faster (i.e. plan 3?) gets to the support-the-capital point faster. The former happens before we need the latter, so I think the general principle of getting stuff that is clearly good ASAP supports some variation on plan 4 over plan 3. But I can live with plan 3.

LowtherCastle · Oct 14, 2012

A more detailed comparison of Option 3 and Option 4

Code:

T64     Option3 Option4
        ------- -------
Beakers           +65
wkrsbuilt  2        1
Settler  +9h            
Gpps              +42      
chops      3        2  
               
Summary
food              +11                
hammers  +39       
beakers           +65
gpps              +42
wkr-t    +19
horses    +2t      
academy            +7t


Summary in words:
On t64, Options 3 yields:
Oracle 2t faster
settler 1 turn sooner
+19 worker-turns
horses at least 2t sooner (depending on how the 3rd worker is used)

Option 4 yields:
+65b
academy 7t sooner (7t * 12cpt * 50%bonus * 80%slider = 33 raw beakers)
+14 cottage turns (14c * 75%bonus * 60% slider = 6 raw beakers)
+1 chop in Orleans
+42 food-hammers in Paris (Option3 works +14 sci-turns instead of cottage-turns)
some risk of losing Slave, delaying the Oracle by 2 turns

Explanation: On T64, Option 4 can complete a settler in 5t, or 1 turn slower than Option 3. On T64, Option 3 will require 11t to complete a GS, or 7 turns slower than Option 4.

In the final analysis: The difference boils down to 15 worker-turns, starting T62, and 18f-h in Paris in exchange for ~110 beakers and an extra chop in Orleans. This leads to the un-analyzed question of how many workers we require on T64, to improve pigs+corn and anything else.

LowtherCastle · Oct 14, 2012

Pros and cons

The 3rd wkr will allow us to send 1 wkr to City3, allowing 2 wkrs to connect the horses and build the two Orleans river mines rapidly.
Connecting the horses sooner protects us from a possble earlier invasion by Brennus.
The 110 beakers allows us to get Sailing or whatever 2-3 turns sooner.
Faster research leads to faster GLH, Pyramids, possibly preventing us from losing them.

Since we plan to slave harvest Brennus, the worker build in Paris could prove redundant if we can get by with only two workers for now. In my tests, I often had captured a 2nd slave by T62 or so.

Note also that in the test save, Brennus does not have that horse tile, so he settles differently from what he's likely to do in the real game. That horse city will be great for slave harvesting because the horses will be completely exposed to us and nearby.

bcool · Oct 14, 2012

Okay so option 4 you are not planning on working the 2 scientists after you finish Math, you immediately switch to producing the settler with max food/hammers.

If so I guess option 4 is okay, but we might have to abort if the worker slave doesn't make it home.

I'm okay with that.

LowtherCastle · Oct 14, 2012

bcool said:
Okay so option 4 you are not planning on working the 2 scientists after you finish Math, you immediately switch to producing the settler with max food/hammers.

It's one option. I showed it for purposes of comparison.

LowtherCastle · Oct 14, 2012

Walter_Wolf said:
PPP for partial turnset #6, T49 - T55 v4

Orleans

T55 - Eiffel finishes cottage.

Workers
Eiffel

T49 - T52 pasture sheep
T53 - T55 finish cottage 1E of Orleans

Walter, I've got a much better idea for this. We don't need the cottage. We only use it one turn anyway. Instead:
T53 move 1W to forest grass hill (Orleans-1N)
T54-T55 road

This will allow Eiffel to pre-chop that forest 2 turns instead of only one, assuming BW by T58. The significance is that if Slave never arrives, the Oracle is only delayed 1 turn. Furthermore, on T56-T57, Eiffel can road the sheep, so that the horses can be connected sooner.

I never did like cottaging that fp because I see us working fish, sheep, and two mines or older cottages anyway.

Walter_Wolf said:
Eve/Louis/Slave combo all the credits to LowtherCastle .

T49 - Eve gets teleported 1S1W of stone tile after the DoW. Capture the worker.

T50 - Louis move 1S1W. Smell the air.
Slave 1N to check 1S of Bitracte. If clear,
Eve 1N1W to the forest,
Slave 1W to the forest where Eve is. Hope to lure a unit from the city and make louis later moves safe.
Louis move 1S if it's clear.

T51 - Louis 1S to forest. If copper is clear, go to copper.
Slave 1W, 1NW to the silk
Eve scout 1S1W.
I think it's better not to risk Eve's life by moving 1W LowtherCastle suggested. If Slave stumbles accross a unit with the 1W move, consider western escape route.

T52 - Louis pillages copper
Slave joins Louis if the "silk route" worked.

See Post #886 for a less risky path for Slave.

Kaitzilla · Oct 14, 2012

bcool said:
Okay so option 4 you are not planning on working the 2 scientists after you finish Math, you immediately switch to producing the settler with max food/hammers.

If so I guess option 4 is okay, but we might have to abort if the worker slave doesn't make it home.

I'm okay with that.

Option #4 would not stop working the scientists on T63 to produce a settler. Nor would it whip the settler complete. On turn 63, it only needs a few more turns to complete the Great Scientist and would be kind of silly to stop working scientists so close to an Academy.

Thus, the settler would come out much later in plan #4 than in plan #3.

Fundamentally, plan#4 vs. plan#3 trades :hammers:

for

. A worker and most of a settler is traded for much faster Math and better chops.

LTC's alternate Eiffel micro of a road instead of finishing the cottage might be an acceptable hedge to Slave never making it home. It would allow one worker to double chop Oracle in a decent time, assuming we don't need that extra cottage to barely get Math in time for T64 Oracle.
The two unknowns right now complicating planning are Slave making it home and us getting Bronze Working in a trade.

I feel that we are running out of time for me to drag this out even longer. I will capitulate to the teching home-run swing and consent to plan#4 if the team still likes it.

Good luck Walter_Wolf!
I think we are down to good and very good options, so I'll stop arguing now and support what you choose.
Just make sure to play through a test game once to make sure the micro you choose works ok.

SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

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