Six-Months War; Take 4

Tyo · Nov 25, 2012

From: The Ottoman Empire
To: All Concerned

With the latest statement by the rebels, it is clear they do not care how it comes about, only that its autonomy is granted. While we understand the Spaniards' concerns, it does not appear that changing administration over until the talks are finalized will be required.

Now, on to the more pressing concern of actually discussing the amount of autonomy the Arabs will be allowed. The Sultan has taken it upon himself to make the first draft:

Treaty of Mecca

The nation of Hedjaz will be released from direct Ottoman control to the limited autonomy of the Arabian People of Hedjaz.
Hedjaz will remain a protectorate of the Ottoman Empire, required to pay annual tithes of 5 EP per year.
Ottoman citizens are automatically eligible to become citizens of Hedjaz at any time. Likewise, Hedjaz citizens are automatically eligible to become citizens of the Ottoman Empire at any time.
Hedjaz is free as a nation to do the following:
1. Create its own military.
2. Completely govern its own people, so long that required annual tithes are paid in full.
3. Appoint its own ruler, but this ruler must first be approved by the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire.
The autonomy of Hedjaz is limited by the following:
1. Hedjaz may not interact with foreign nations and countries. All concerns dealing with foreign powers will be handled by the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire; if Hedjaz has any concerns of its own dealing with a foreign power, Hedjaz must seek the Sultan, who will then listen and act the way he sees fit on the matter.
2. Hedjaz cannot have a military exceeding the strength of a quarter of the Ottoman Empire's military.
3. Hedjaz is permanently obliged to join all conflicts as an ally of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire and use its resources to assist the Ottoman cause. This includes but is not limited to war, diplomatic tension, and rebellions inside the Ottoman Empire.
4. The Ottoman Empire reserves the right to set up military outposts and forts in Hedjaz. Hedjaz has no authority in these outposts; they are under full Ottoman jurisdiction.
5. In times of peace and stability, the Hedjaz military is not allowed to leave Hedjaz borders unless otherwise stated by the Sultan. The Ottoman military, however, may come and go as the Sultan pleases.
6. If Hedjaz is under intense rebellion, the Ottoman Empire reserves the right to stabilize the region by any means necessary. Even if it means completely rejoining the Empire. "Intense rebellion" is defined as at least half the country is occupied by rebel forces or at least a quarter of the country along with its capital.
As compensation for this year's unjust attacks on Ottoman soldiers, Hedjaz must pay 80 EP to the Ottoman Empire in addition to the annual tithes, due in eight years.

TheLizardKing · Nov 25, 2012

Justo said:
OOC: Why not make the cost based on the nations current "tech level" so to speak. E.G. Lets say Soviet Russia wanted to develop a basic fighter with 1 stat in each of the 4 areas. The cost of this would be 25 EP for each of those base stats. But lets say we wanted to put 2 points into Engines. Since we've never developed fighter engines before such a jump would be quite expensive and require quite a bit of R&D. The 4 base stats(1st Point) would cost 25 each(since that's not a major step) while the cost to make the second Engine point would actually be 50 EP making the final design cost 150 EP.

But once I have my base 1-1-1-1 Fighter the cost of designing level 2 components decreases to the standard 25 EP. Obviously going to level 3 would see the cost rise to 50 EP for each level again until we've developed level 2 components.

This would ultimately make it more cost effective for most countries to develop in steps rather than rushing really advanced designs while at the same time still allowing advanced designs for those willing and able to bear the cost.

You could even make it that if you've already got a certain level of development that those stats become cheaper. E.G. Once I've got my 1-1-1-1 Fighter the first stat point in each area only costs 10 EP, the second stat point costs 25 EP, the third stat point costs 50 EP etc. This might be over complicating things though.

I would like a system like that, but I'd fear that ultimately it'd get a bit too confusing for me to manage. (I have never done anything like that)

Another thought I had, along similar lines, was limiting the new designs to be within something like 3 points of the highest-point UU in that catagory. If a fighter was to be 3-3-3-3, for a total of 12 points, the "best" design one could possibly make would have a total of 15 points. That was UU ability and price would grow steadily.

Lord of Elves · Nov 25, 2012

From: Second Spanish Empire
To: Ottoman Empire
CC: Everyone Else
We understand this proposed "Treaty of Mecca" to be entirely unnecessary given the fact that all the involved parties to the exception of the Ottoman Empire and Germany have found the Spanish proposal adequate. We believe it is entirely preferable that in order to ensure there is no further violence or instability that for the duration of any protectorate in the Hedjaz, that protectorate ought to be administrated by a foreign third party, and neither a Turkish authority nor an Arab one. To that end, we believe our own proposal is best.

ZeletDude · Nov 25, 2012

To: The Austro-Hungarian Empire
From: The Kingdom of Italy
CC: The German Empire, The Second Spanish Empire, Whomever else it may concern.

The Kingdom of Italy is proud to announce the Treaty of Istria, signed in the year 1923 between the Kingdom of Italy, and The Austro-Hungarian Empire. For perpetual peace, and stability in the unstable Balkans.

The lands of Istria, Trento, and South Tyrol will be handed over to Italian authority, and The Austro-Hungarian Empire will forever forswear their rights to these lands.
Italian forces will evacuate Dalmatia.
Italy will stop all aid sent to the Balkan rebels.
A Slav state will be set up in Southern Serbia

Signed by, Vittorio Emmanuele III, King of Italy, Egypt, and Protector of Albania and Antonio Salandra, Prime Minister of The Kingdom of Italy

Birdjaguar · Nov 25, 2012

Justo said:
OOC: Why not make the cost based on the nations current "tech level" so to speak. E.G. Lets say Soviet Russia wanted to develop a basic fighter with 1 stat in each of the 4 areas. The cost of this would be 25 EP for each of those base stats. But lets say we wanted to put 2 points into Engines. Since we've never developed fighter engines before such a jump would be quite expensive and require quite a bit of R&D. The 4 base stats(1st Point) would cost 25 each(since that's not a major step) while the cost to make the second Engine point would actually be 50 EP making the final design cost 150 EP.

But once I have my base 1-1-1-1 Fighter the cost of designing level 2 components decreases to the standard 25 EP. Obviously going to level 3 would see the cost rise to 50 EP for each level again until we've developed level 2 components.

This would ultimately make it more cost effective for most countries to develop in steps rather than rushing really advanced designs while at the same time still allowing advanced designs for those willing and able to bear the cost.

You could even make it that if you've already got a certain level of development that those stats become cheaper. E.G. Once I've got my 1-1-1-1 Fighter the first stat point in each area only costs 10 EP, the second stat point costs 25 EP, the third stat point costs 50 EP etc. This might be over complicating things though.

I like this idea; would a spreadsheet make tracking it easier?

Tyo · Nov 25, 2012

From: The Ottoman Empire
To: Second Spanish Empire

Considering that the only other parties that have stated their favor for your proposal is the United Kingdom and Saudi Arabia, we think that you're severely exaggerating the extent of how many approve of your proposal. Also, if the rebels hold true to their promises, stability of the region is pretty much assured.

From: The Ottoman Empire
To: Hussein bin Ali, Arab Leader

We find our proposed treaty fair. Your people get autonomy, and we can be compensated for the unfortunate events of the year and we can all put it past us. Of course, the treaty is negotiable.

Lord of Elves · Nov 25, 2012

Tyo said:
From: The Ottoman Empire
To: Second Spanish Empire

Considering that the only other parties that have stated their favor for your proposal is the United Kingdom and Saudi Arabia, we think that you're severely exaggerating the extent of how many approve of your proposal. Also, if the rebels hold true to their promises, stability of the region is pretty much assured.

Great Britain, Saudi Arabia (on behalf of the Crescent alliance, including Persia) and Italy have spoken in support of our treaty. Given that to the exception of yourself and German Empire these are all the concerned parties, the majority of those involved find the Spanish proposal to be the best possible arrangement. We are skeptical that the continued subordination of the Hedjaz to the Sultan of Rome will result in anything but further instability and violence. The Hedjaz must come under the administration of a neutral, extra-regional power until it can be released as a sovereign entity without detriment to the regional stability.

Your proposal does not satisfy these conditions. Nor are we at all impressed by the Sultan's intention to make the free people of Hedjaz pay tribute as if to a Mongol khan for the privilege of their own sovereignty.

arya126 · Nov 25, 2012

Lord of Elves said:
Great Britain, Saudi Arabia (on behalf of the Crescent alliance, including Persia) and Italy have spoken in support of our treaty. Given that to the exception of yourself and German Empire these are all the concerned parties, the majority of those involved find the Spanish proposal to be the best possible arrangement. We are skeptical that the continued subordination of the Hedjaz to the Sultan of Rome will result in anything but further instability and violence. The Hedjaz must come under the administration of a neutral, extra-regional power until it can be released as a sovereign entity without detriment to the regional stability.

Your proposal does not satisfy these conditions. Nor are we at all impressed by the Sultan's intention to make the free people of Hedjaz pay tribute as if to a Mongol khan for the privilege of their own sovereignty.

Although Norway is completely aware that she has no business in this conflict, King Haakon VII feels compelled to note that The German Empire does hold rather more influence than others, such as Spain. He also feels compelled to note that Spain is hardly neutral in these talks, proven by their alliance with Saudi Arabia and their clear bias in favor of the rebels, not to mention their attempt to expand their own interests by making Hedjaz their own protectorate. They insist that there will be time to transition and in that time Spanish rule must take over, but in fact that would likely destabilize the region more because those ruling the region would change more often than is safe.

Somehow, the fact that the Ottomans are quite capable of negotiating with the rebels on their own has flown completely over your head. The Treaty of Mecca and the admission by the Ottomans that the treaty is negotiable proves this. So, the King of Norway is asking why you are still sticking your nose where it doesn't belong? It clearly is causing more problems than it solves.

Lord of Elves · Nov 25, 2012

We are absolutely flabbergasted (what a fun word) that the foreign office in Madrid continues to receive telegrams from Oslo despite the fact that Norway's embassy in Madrid was abolished only a year previously. In the interest of full disclosure, the site of the former Norwegian embassy is now a supremely excellent brothel, and we encourage any discerning gentlemen to have a look the next time they are in Madrid's prestigious red light district. That said, Generalissimo Estardo has authorized me (Foreign Minister Juan Yague Blanco) to inform His Majesty the King of Norway that he is a hack and an imbecile, and that it is hardly possible for him and his impossibly-sized nose to be less welcome anywhere than in Spain. Good day.

Feel free to interpret what part of this is IC and OOC loosely.

arya126 said:
So, the King of Norway is asking why you are still sticking your nose where it doesn't belong? It clearly is causing more problems than it solves.

Good advice. You should follow it sometime.

Justo · Nov 25, 2012

TheLizardKing said:
I would like a system like that, but I'd fear that ultimately it'd get a bit too confusing for me to manage. (I have never done anything like that)

Another thought I had, along similar lines, was limiting the new designs to be within something like 3 points of the highest-point UU in that catagory. If a fighter was to be 3-3-3-3, for a total of 12 points, the "best" design one could possibly make would have a total of 15 points. That was UU ability and price would grow steadily.

OOC: Well provided you go with the first system I suggested you only need to know the stats of the latest or most advanced design of a country to determine the price. The reality is that only a few countries are going to be constantly bringing out new designs. Most other countries will be building or buying the planes that these few countries develop.

I'm not a big fan of your proposal. It ultimately limits how customized designs can be. If that were to be the case than most designs would be pretty well similar and might as well be standardized. That said I don't mind the idea of cost being based on the current global tech level since once nations know that it's feasible to do something that by default makes something easier to design. It also helps limit the potential of one nation getting far beyond the rest of the field since their improvement costs will be higher than the nations playing catch up.

Birdjaguar said:
I like this idea; would a spreadsheet make tracking it easier?

OOC: A spreadsheet would probably make things easier. In the grand scheme of things though most nations are likely to have only 1 up to date design better than all the others and given that only 8 or so nations are going to be constantly making new designs(and selling off production rights etc to smaller nations) it's not going to be particularly unmanageable.

Otherwise the current tech level for each nation could simply be detailed within each of the UU areas.

E.G.
Fighters

Spoiler :

Obviously if a nation has multiple designs within the same areas the highest tech stat for each component is considered the current tech level. So if Japan had a second fighter with 1-2-2-3 its overall tech level would be 2-2-2-3 and so forth.

arya126 · Nov 25, 2012

I think the above system....might work. It would certainly encourage nations to follow trends in their units, such as the historical trend in early WW2 of Japanese having faster plans but American planes being more reliable and sturdy. However it would provide a rather steep gameplay disadvantage to nations that don't already have a UU in place for one type of unit or another (or sometimes any at all), and thats not entirely fair considering that not everybody had control over their nation in the last game where most of these designs originate form I believe.

Grandkhan · Nov 25, 2012

How much does it cost to develop a new infantry unit? The Lion Battalions and things don't have stats, so I'm not sure how much creating a unit like that would cost.

Agent 89 · Nov 25, 2012

To: Spain, Those Involved
From: Germany

Spain has attempted to twist our original agreement of an Ottoman protectorate into a Spanish protectorate and eventually an independent state. Given this breach in diplomacy, we feel the need to remind those foreign states involved in the matter that they are only involved through the grace of the Sultan. The Hedjaz continues to be the sovereign territory of the Ottoman Empire, and ultimately it is their decision how to handle the situation. Naturally, a peaceful, diplomatic solution involving all regional powers is preferable. However, it is not necessary, especially when those powers seek to twist an agreement which received general support to meet their own wants.

Per our earlier agreement, the Hedjaz will become an autonomous protectorate of the Ottoman Empire. There is no precedent for the "transition government" you propose (although that proposal seems to have morphed into a full fledge Spanish protectorate), so the Ottomans will oversee the process. The Treaty of Mecca is a suitable framework for peace, although as the Sultan has stated, there is room for negotiation.

thomas.berubeg · Nov 25, 2012

The Pointe

Pointe-Saint-Charles (or, Colloquially, The Point) is culturally one of the most interesting neighborhoods in Montreal. When Quebec was part of Canada, The Point was an attractive prospect for poor Irish and Scottish Immigrants, as the close proximity to the Lachine Canal and the Montreal Docks offered jobs which required minimal training and expertise. While the Majority of the Anglophone population of Quebec left with the Independance, rightly feeling that they would find better welcome in the rest of Canada, most of the inhabitants of the Point were disadvantaged and therefore unable to leave.

Factory on the Lachine Canal

Most of the inhabitants of the Point were resigned, because of their Anglophone status, to live a quiet life, forgotten, toiling day by day for little to no improvement in their lives. While this may have been the case, with the Quebecois Government focusing primarily on the Francophone population, the fact remains that the Point experienced an unexpected rebirth and revival from an unanticipated source. The oddity of the neighborhood, its status as one of the only fully Anglophone neighborhoods, made it an attractive target for Immigration from the African American population fleeing the Confederacy during the Great War. As English speakers, they naturally congregated to an area where they felt even a slight familiarity.

While one might think that this wave of poor immigrants would serve as an anchor for the point, ******ing any economic growth, these people brought with them a rich cultural heritage. While the “Gangon” Style of music can officially trace its roots to Avenue St. Laurent, most of the major players and events in its development can be traced to the point. Coleman Hawkins, The saxophone player who accompanied the eponymous Marie-Eve Gangon, made his home in the Point, and his success would Inspire many other aspiring musicians. While Gangon and her band would gain notoriety in the higher circles of Quebecois High Society and move to Quebec City in 1923, Montreal would remain the capital of Gagnon style, and the Point its true home, with such artists as Bessie Smith, Janet Macmillian, and Louis Smith Roberts calling the Point home.

Gangon singer Bessie Smith

The African-Quebecois and Irish Populations in the Point capitalized on this success, opening a large number of nightclubs, dance halls, and brothels. The influx of money into the neighborhood spurred its development, and eventual integration into greater Quebecois culture, as the Inhabitants of the Point adopted French so as to truly be able to get as much money from their customers as possible. Today, the Influence the Point has had on modern Quebecois language and culture is undeniable, with many english words and expressions adopted into Quebecois French traceable directly to the Point.

L'usine, one of the nightclubs that sprung up in the point in the early 1920s

Lord of Elves · Nov 25, 2012

From: Second Spanish Empire
To: Germany
CC: Concerned Parties
We do not understand this as an interest in negotiation. We have proposed an arrangement which has proved satisfactory to all the concerned parties to the exception of yourselves and the Sultan of Rome. No attempt has been made by either Germany nor the Ottoman Empire to address the concerns of the other involved parties as expressed in our proposed arrangement, but instead merely to make the arrangement of a compromise in Arabia as comfortable as possible for Ottoman political concerns. It seems that the Sultan of Rome will do what he pleases regardless of the concern for the regional peace and stability as expressed by the powers which attended the Doha Conference.

Tyo · Nov 25, 2012

From: The Ottoman Empire
To: Second Spanish Empire

If we did not care for the stability of the region, we would not be discussing this right now. We would order the rebellious Arabs shot. We wouldn't consider giving them any autonomy. And so what if we do? This is a domestic concern. All the Spaniards can say in this matter is advice. We make the decisions regarding our domestic concerns, and we have decided. The rebels' willingness to lay down their arms and our willingness to come to a negotiable compromise is all that is needed to assure regional stability so long as both parties do their parts right.

TheLizardKing · Nov 25, 2012

I added a bit to the front page about infantry UU's, and also (non-related) about disbanding units.

Orders are still due on Tuesday, and I'm not going to be around at all tomorrow, or for at least half of the day on Tuesday. So if you have questions, today is the day to ask.

To: The Ottoman Empire, Spain, Other Powers
From: Hussein bin Ali, former Emir of Mecca, Arab Leader

We are not paying reparations to anyone, nor are we going to allow for the status quo to continue. We laid down arms with the understanding the our autonomy would be given to us by the Spanish or on our own. We will not allow ourselves to be put under the thumb of the Sultan, while he claims we are "independent". We will fight to the last, rather than let the Turks attempt to gain more footing in the Hedjaz.

EDIT: In regards to the proposed UU system; from what I understand it to be, it would be a nice system to use, but I fear that my execution of it would lack, and it may also create some inconsistencies with players. A poor nation like Uruguay, would then never be able to really develop it's own nice fighter, for instance, even if it got the money to do so, on it's own. I'd have to then make it so that any technology you have, even traded ones, means you could up your tech level, though I feel like this could be gamed in one way or another. The other problem is, for each section of UUs, be it fighters, bombers, warkers, whatever, I'd have to have a preceding list of 40 or so names for each nation, which wouldn't be feasible, at least I don't think

It is a good idea/system, I just worry it may be a bit overkill. If the public consensus is that, or another system should be used, I'll happily change it, and see how far I can go with it. I'm not going to reject popular changes, if it's what the people want.

Gem Hound · Nov 25, 2012

ZeletDude said:
To: The Austro-Hungarian Empire
From: The Kingdom of Italy
CC: The German Empire, The Second Spanish Empire, Whomever else it may concern.

The Kingdom of Italy is proud to announce the Treaty of Istria, signed in the year 1923 between the Kingdom of Italy, and The Austro-Hungarian Empire. For perpetual peace, and stability in the unstable Balkans.

The lands of Istria, Trento, and South Tyrol will be handed over to Italian authority, and The Austro-Hungarian Empire will forever forswear their rights to these lands.

Italian forces will evacuate Dalmatia.

Italy will stop all aid sent to the Balkan rebels.

A Slav state will be set up in Southern Serbia

Signed by, Vittorio Emmanuele III, King of Italy, Egypt, and Protector of Albania and Antonio Salandra, Prime Minister of The Kingdom of Italy

Signed by: Archduke Charles the First of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Prime Minister János Hadik of the Balkan Republic, and Minister-President Heinrich Lammasch of the Balkan Republic

TheLizardKing · Nov 25, 2012

What's the government of the Slav state? Is a king being installed? A Republic?

Gem Hound · Nov 25, 2012

TheLizardKing said:
What's the government of the Slav state? Is a king being installed? A Republic?

They will be ruled by the old king of Serbia.

Six-Months War; Take 4

HANDS HIGH TO THE SOUND

Let's talk Michelle.

Suede-Denim Secret Police

The Lion

Hanafubuki

HANDS HIGH TO THE SOUND

Suede-Denim Secret Police

Squad Leader

Suede-Denim Secret Police

Emperor

Squad Leader

Telvanni Master Wizard

King

Wandering the World

Suede-Denim Secret Police

HANDS HIGH TO THE SOUND

Let's talk Michelle.

Deity

Let's talk Michelle.

Deity

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