Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

Do we want the current version of Subdued Animals
1) moved into core with the only the options controlling the spawn rate and what happens to the subdued animals

OR

2) make it completely modular again?​

Looks like I got a bit slack on keeping this modular given the XML problems reported elsewhere.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
Do we want the current version of Subdued Animals
1) moved into core with the only the options controlling the spawn rate and what happens to the subdued animals

OR

2) make it completely modular again?​

Looks like I got a bit slack on keeping this modular given the XML problems reported elsewhere.
Click to expand...

What are the pro's and con's for each?
 
Both will take a couple of days to do. Both will get rid of many of the dependent XML problems reported by makotech222.

Core Pro: Since I can no longer change the code behind the mod, it is in the dll, moving the XML into core means that all of it would be in core. Others would be able to edit stuff. The units infos file would be much bigger.

Core Con: not modular so people would be stuck with the art and animals in game even if they set the spawn rate to zero.

There is a task on my to do list to make a smaller set of animals which still allow all the buildings but reduce the total graphics requirement. So that just like the wolf currently stands in for all wild canines, there would only be one crocodile standing in for all crocodiles, alligators, caimans and the gharials. Only one bear, big cat and so on.
 
For my two cents, I think the the maintenance cost for them needs to be drastically reduced.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
Both will take a couple of days to do. Both will get rid of many of the dependent XML problems reported by makotech222.

Core Pro: Since I can no longer change the code behind the mod, it is in the dll, moving the XML into core means that all of it would be in core. Others would be able to edit stuff. The units infos file would be much bigger.

Core Con: not modular so people would be stuck with the art and animals in game even if they set the spawn rate to zero.

There is a task on my to do list to make a smaller set of animals which still allow all the buildings but reduce the total graphics requirement. So that just like the wolf currently stands in for all wild canines, there would only be one crocodile standing in for all crocodiles, alligators, caimans and the gharials. Only one bear, big cat and so on.
Click to expand...

Well i will leave it up to you, but i really know where you are thinking, and you want modular, so that others and even other mods can use it, i know you!!!:p
 
Is there any reason why some animal enclosures can be build with menagerie and others need to have carnival to be built?
 
Yeah, I vote for modular too.

For various reasons, one being; that you still have a lot more planned for them in the future. Also, as a modmod, it should be easier to edit them once the new battle system is put in place. Also, some day you plan on making them their own faction, so they can spawn inside cultural borders, to make them more useful after turn 200 or so, when the entire world is settled. ect ect.

It just seems to me, that if you put it in the core, then you're pretty much stuck with what you can do, but as a modmod you can continue to improve and advance the system.
 
Taxman66 said:
For my two cents, I think the the maintenance cost for them needs to be drastically reduced.
Click to expand...

The current maintenance cost for all subdued animals is zero. There is a cost for units in excess of what your civics etc allow but that is done in the dll. If you want them not to count towards the number of units you have that will need to be done in the dll, I can't do that.

JJOne said:
Is there any reason why some animal enclosures can be build with menagerie and others need to have carnival to be built?
Click to expand...

Yes. History mostly - mod and real. You can't have a nocturnal enclosure until you have electricity and change day into night so to make te animals awake when the visitors are available.

strategyonly said:
Well i will leave it up to you, but i really know where you are thinking, and you want modular, so that others and even other mods can use it, i know you!!!:p
Click to expand...

Since the code for subdue animals was moved into the dll and since we moved to the new spawn system subdue animals can't be used by anyone not using the C2C dll. This means there is no need to keep it modular for use in other mods.

GT Ranma said:
Yeah, I vote for modular too.

For various reasons, one being; that you still have a lot more planned for them in the future. Also, as a modmod, it should be easier to edit them once the new battle system is put in place. Also, some day you plan on making them their own faction, so they can spawn inside cultural borders, to make them more useful after turn 200 or so, when the entire world is settled. ect ect.

It just seems to me, that if you put it in the core, then you're pretty much stuck with what you can do, but as a modmod you can continue to improve and advance the system.
Click to expand...

Not really. having it in core makes it easier for more people to work on and any additions can be modmods in their own right on top of what we have. Putting them in core reduces the load order problems.
 
After the trouble noted the other day in the main C2C thread, and as I'm going through all modules right now and finding doing it for the slightest thing to be fairly overwhelming, and since we have concerns about our load times floating about (even though it wouldn't make THAT big an impact here...) I was going to strongly suggest to move this, AND anything else that's become fairly core to C2C concept - Hydro I'm looking at YOU - into the core.

After some current projects are complete, its conceivable MOST modules can be moved into the core and simply made game options if they are something some wouldn't want to play with.
 
Thunderbrd said:
After some current projects are complete, its conceivable MOST modules can be moved into the core and simply made game options if they are something some wouldn't want to play with.
Click to expand...

Doesn't quite work unless you have a way of replacing the MLF stuff with options. Also we would need a better set of start up options, probably similar to the Any Fun Mod has.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
Doesn't quite work unless you have a way of replacing the MLF stuff with options. Also we would need a better set of start up options, probably similar to the Any Fun Mod has.
Click to expand...

I have such a way. It's exactly what I'm working on now and its quite functional... my next update will include this functionality for traits and it will not be much from there to add the same ability to the rest of our primary info file types.

And I'll be looking into figuring out if we can make things a bit easier for option categorization so that the list isn't all one big splay either. But it could be best if AIAndy can get back to us and help us with the startup screen mod we were discussing at one point that lets us save all the option selections and load them in as a group.
 
@DH:

Hmm, it sounds like the pros outweigh the cons then... I mean, how bad of a con is having some extra icons in the game even if it is turned 'off'?
 
@Dancing Hoskuld

Here is a Fruit Bat. While there are many species I generalized it to just this group. They live in the tropics from Africa to Asia to even Oceania. Thus Here is a species that could be in the Pacific ocean range.

I sent you a button for a Myth of the Bat once. If you need the button again I can send it to you. Other building that make sense are Enclosure - Nocturnal. Also you may want to have it give Myth of the Sky, Myth of Rodent and Myth of Bird. Yes I realize they are neither birds or rodents but people have made that mistake in the past. Likewise you may want to have new special myth; Myth of the Vampire! ;) You might also want a Myth of the Werewolf for Wild Canines and Hyenas.

-----

Also please do not forget about these other ones. They ind of got burred in the thread.

- Ethiopian Wolf
- Fennec Fox
- Arctic Fox
- Dingo
- Dhole

Thanks! :goodjob:
 

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Hydromancerx said:
You might also want a Myth of the Werewolf for Wild Canines and Hyenas.
Click to expand...

FWIW I understand the belief in lycanthropy (werecreatures) to be largely due to the symptoms (and contraction method) of rabies...
 
I'm not sure if my following comments/observations belong here or in the general thread or the ideas/discussion thread. If desired I'll repost there.

I'm on a northern small continent/large island (about 20 good city sites, or 25 city sites if I wanted to maximize land space). On this land mass, there are no elephants, no cows, no bison, co camels, no llama and no donkeys (although there are 2 horses). I encountered 1 barbarian donkey very early on (via Wanderer) and was damn lucky to subdue it. If I hadn't, I would now be completely unable to produce the animal assitant workers. As it is I can only build them in one city. This is extremely annoying.

I see no reason why subdued animals couldn't be a buildable unit so that farms/flocks/herds/kennels could be established in other cities. Yes, I realize that would obsolete the 'National #### breader' buildings, but I think you could just change what they do instead.

Additionally, I think there should be more animal assisted workers (Musk Ox, Water buffalo, *HORSE* come to mind). Perhaps there could even be some differences between them. Horse and Elephants might work faster, but take more to build (Horses are expensive/valuable) or in maintenance (elphants obviously).


Secondly, this land mass produced an overabundance of lynx and red fox, a decent amount of moose, eagles, hawks, wolverines and skunks. A few pigeons, a few snakes, one couple horses, one donkey and one musk ox (on a single tundra hill); and not a single other type of animal... including no wolves of any sort. Seems a bit silly... particularly the no wolves/dire wolves.
 
Taxman66 said:
I'm not sure if my following comments/observations belong here or in the general thread or the ideas/discussion thread. If desired I'll repost there.

I'm on a northern small continent/large island (about 20 good city sites, or 25 city sites if I wanted to maximize land space). On this land mass, there are no elephants, no cows, no bison, co camels, no llama and no donkeys (although there are 2 horses). I encountered 1 barbarian donkey very early on (via Wanderer) and was damn lucky to subdue it. If I hadn't, I would now be completely unable to produce the animal assitant workers. As it is I can only build them in one city. This is extremely annoying.

I see no reason why subdued animals couldn't be a buildable unit so that farms/flocks/herds/kennels could be established in other cities. Yes, I realize that would obsolete the 'National #### breader' buildings, but I think you could just change what they do instead.

Additionally, I think there should be more animal assisted workers (Musk Ox, Water buffalo, *HORSE* come to mind). Perhaps there could even be some differences between them. Horse and Elephants might work faster, but take more to build (Horses are expensive/valuable) or in maintenance (elphants obviously).


Secondly, this land mass produced an overabundance of lynx and red fox, a decent amount of moose, eagles, hawks, wolverines and skunks. A few pigeons, a few snakes, one couple horses, one donkey and one musk ox (on a single tundra hill); and not a single other type of animal... including no wolves of any sort. Seems a bit silly... particularly the no wolves/dire wolves.
Click to expand...

1) Where animals spawn is currently based on Earth latitude and longitude locations of animals before humans started messing with them. Additionally some will only show up if their resource is available (cow, bison, camels and horse for example). Some predators only show up if any of their prey resources are available. Grizzly Bears require Deer or Bison for example.

2) Having subdued animals buildable unbalances the game a bit. Although I did start work on doing so with the Tamed Animals mod by SaibotLieh.

3) Water Buffalo can make assisted workers, the three are Elephant, Mule and Water Buffalo. Horses and Camels are for war units. I too have had games without these set of workers due to lack of the animals. Which is why you should get out there, explore and bring back exotic animals. ;)

3) It takes a lot of games to figure out if I have the balance right but Lynx and Fox are too common and getting them means you are not getting something else. Wolves are common everywhere at the moment so you were just unlucky - they have at least two spawn definitions one prey resource based the other terrain based, so you were just unlucky.
 
I strongly disagree with (the first #3). I see absolutely no reason why horses shouldn't also be useable for workers. I'd be willing to bet in the history of man there were/are more horse assistance than mules, donkeys, elphants combined. If you're sea locked and don't have the right resources or spawning animals you will be shut out.

I see your point about buildable subdued animals... however, there should be ways to spread domesticated animals to other cities.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
3) It takes a lot of games to figure out if I have the balance right but Lynx and Fox are too common and getting them means you are not getting something else. Wolves are common everywhere at the moment so you were just unlucky - they have at least two spawn definitions one prey resource based the other terrain based, so you were just unlucky.
Click to expand...

Well once you apply the new Canine units I converted Wolves (and Dire Wolves) should not spawn in the Southern Hemisphere anymore. The Dingo (Australia), Ethiopian Wolf (Africa), etc should cover the different regions of the southern hemisphere.
 
Taxman66 said:
I strongly disagree with (the first #3). I see absolutely no reason why horses shouldn't also be useable for workers. I'd be willing to bet in the history of man there were/are more horse assistance than mules, donkeys, elphants combined. If you're sea locked and don't have the right resources or spawning animals you will be shut out.
Click to expand...

Actually there are more oxen assisted but they aren't in the game either. In fact people used any semi-wild animals for ploughing fields etc. - OK, I'll get rid of the lot and replace them with an "assisted Worker" which any one can get but are built faster with the correct resources. It will make it easier to maintain and make things a bit more boring.

Taxman66 said:
I see your point about buildable subdued animals... however, there should be ways to spread domesticated animals to other cities.
Click to expand...

There are discussions happening on this topic at the moment. The discussions are about plants also and include the idea of evolving domestication. Though the latter will be more relevant to the extended nomadic start game.
 
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