RFCEurope 1.1

Spirictum said:

I didn't even remember this post was already in RFCE 1.1 (actually my last successful game), but I'm bringing this back because playing as Venice I've faced this again and remembered about this issue.

I would like to know if Religious Law is a civic to exclude the need of a monastery to make missionaries, or to exclude the need of a specific building to make missionaries.

I know a Protestant Seminary is another class of building (and it has its orthodox and catholic counterparts), but it's the one protestantism uses to make missionaries, different from the other 3 religions (and it's indeed funny because the islamic one can be built without the madrassa, something that's only functional because it shares the same building class of a monastery).

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Yeah, it's a mistake
With religious law you should be able to build protestant missionaries too
The other 3 major religions have their monastery building, but monasteries go obsolete by the time protestantism is founded
So protestant missionaries are tied to seminaries instead

AbsintheRed said:

Yeah, it's a mistake
With religious law you should be able to build protestant missionaries too
The other 3 major religions have their monastery building, but monasteries go obsolete by the time protestantism is founded
So protestant missionaries are tied to seminaries instead

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Alright, this is also fixed
Altough I'm still not statisfied how the monastery/seminary requirements work
To be more precise, how you have to shift to seminaries for protestant missionaries, while you have to stick to obsoleted monasteries for the other religions (so you cannot build them anymore)

AbsintheRed said:

Alright, this is also fixed
Altough I'm still not statisfied how the monastery/seminary requirements work
To be more precise, how you have to shift to seminaries for protestant missionaries, while you have to stick to obsoleted monasteries for the other religions (so you cannot build them anymore)

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Just make missionaries be built with temples. =P

That could be a solution. I rather build monastaries because of the science and cultural boost. Happiness is not worth so much.

I found the problem with the Cordobans with this SVN is that they now have 3 supercities. Cadiz, Cordoba, and Madrid-ish. I think that if Toledo was raised with the Spanish spawn and Madrid was built, that it would be more balanced. I tried this with my Vikings game, and it was a bloody even war until around 1350 when the Spanish finally took Cordoba.
I also think that Burgundy should spawn with more units. France taking even one of Burgundy's towns early game makes them nearly unstoppable.

Royal Tenenbaum said:

I found the problem with the Cordobans with this SVN is that they now have 3 supercities. Cadiz, Cordoba, and Madrid-ish. I think that if Toledo was raised with the Spanish spawn and Madrid was built, that it would be more balanced. I tried this with my Vikings game, and it was a bloody even war until around 1350 when the Spanish finally took Cordoba.

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Ummm
And where is the problem?

I also think that Burgundy should spawn with more units. France taking even one of Burgundy's towns early game makes them nearly unstoppable.

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Maybe
But if burgundy spawns with more units, it unit production should be reduced

AbsintheRed said:

Ummm
And where is the problem?

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I never see Spain survive anymore. However, if Toledo was raized and Madrid was founded on spawn, I think it would give Spain a 50 50 chance.

Here it is again, the strange Sinai situation for the byz.

At least at this stage the province is labeled OK, but it still a tremendous gap.

I had 19 Stability, Very Solid, with the byz just after Justinian's Plague and just before the Arabian spawn. I've trained a settler in Alexandria to use it on that marvelous Sinai spot (fish + salt + 2 plains-flood-plains + plains-flood-plains incense). It is my 17th city (as you start with 16 cities). Just after making the city my stability dropped to 7.

I would like to know how to count this. The Stability Guide says I lose 2 points for building a city in an OK province, 1 point for each city in an OK province and 1 for each city beyond the 16th. If I'm counting right, it would give me a penalty of 4 Stability. But I had a penalty of 12 Stability. Is that correct? If so please care to explain me because it seems so wrong.

btw in SoI the Byzantine name for that city is Tamiathis.

Isnt Al-Qahira on the hill to the SW far better?

I guess the way Egypt is set up right now is to accomodate all three major cities. Building cities closer together in RFCE is less suboptimal than in other mods due to the severe health problems that stifle growth. A little more overlap isn't as bad as cities oftentimes can't grow enough to work all tiles anyway.

2phunkey4u said:

btw in SoI the Byzantine name for that city is Tamiathis.

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Tamiathis is the greek name for Damietta
But Pelusim on that spot was also important for Byzantium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelusium

ezzlar said:

Isnt Al-Qahira on the hill to the SW far better?

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I'm not sure to which tile you're pointing, but any movement south removes my coastal access, something I surely value most (and lose my fish too). It's possible to make a settler in both Alexandria and Jerusalem to make Damieta and Cairo (to get those sweet flood plains and marble), but if I lost another 12 Stability, imagine what would happen when the arab spawned? I continued this game, and upon spawning my stability dropped to -9 (after I conquered their capital of course).

And congratulations Absinthe, now it's harder to use this lame strategy of conquering the only city. I had to do this before the flip (they would conquer Tyre or Jerusalem if I didn't), so after the flip they spawned 4 HA. I was lucky cuz I could kill 3 and hurt 1. The one left conquered Tyre, and one of mine flipped, but then I conquered tyre and ended the arabs once and for all, with -11 Stability.

The situation of byzantine start has improved a lot, with the plague earlier it's easier to handle things. With 5 galleys it's easier to mobilize your defending troops, so I didn't lose a single city to sassanids nor to southern slavs. But I got lucky as Sinope, Caesarea, Tarsus, Antioch and Edessa didn't catch the plague.

But can you explain me why the 12 stability drop? I would like to know how to do these countings, because it seems a shot in the dark by now.

Are you sure that this stability loss is permanent?
There are some temporary stability modifiers, which will change back to normal stability over time
What would be your stability if you have found a city in a stable province, instead of the OK one?

Yes it was permanent. In the following turn I got to 9 Stability because I had an improvement pillaged in the turn I founded the city (so I had 21 SP in the turn before the founding).

After a long time (crushing Arabs, accepting vassalage from Bulgaria and recovering to 12 Stability with manor and court houses) I founded Kalamata in Morea and got 1 Stability (from 12 to 13)

I don't have the save of that time anymore, but I may WB this. I will check the outcome.

EDIT: Well, it seems the problem is with founding the first city. In 500 AD I put a settler in Egypt and the same 12 SP were lost, then I founded Kalamata and no points were lost or gained. I reloaded and found first Kalamata, it took me 8 SP (I tried Tiberias too and the same result). After this founding a city in Egypt only removes the 4 SP I mentioned before.

So it seems that for the first city the Byzantine lose 8 Stability Points

EDIT 2: It's a free -9 Stability on the expansion column, look at it:

Thanks!
It's probably related to the Byz cities being preplaced, maybe they are counted incorrectly in the stability system
Maybe this part of the code refreshes only after the first city is founded?
Will look into it, but it's good news after all
Apart from this "display bug", stability works correctly

PS: Can you check it out with another civ?
Just to be sure, that this only appear for Byzantium with it's preplaced cities
(I'm not near Civ ATM)

I've just tried with the French an no problems. I founded Paris and got two SP, and the following cities each gave me 2 points in the expansion column (the fith in Picardy only gave me one, bu I think this is correct).

Want me to try with other civilizations? I think they all must be working correctly, because losing so much stability in the first city would be a disaster with any civ and someone would come here complaining about it

AbsintheRed, every civ except the Byzantines founds, flips or conquers their cities so no one else would have this bug

civ_king said:

AbsintheRed, every civ except the Byzantines founds, flips or conquers their cities so no one else would have this bug

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Wow, I would never have thought this is the case
What a great info to say to the modder

To be a little less sarcastic:
I'm not totally sure that it's connected to cities being preplaced, that's why I asked

Spirictum said:

I've just tried with the French an no problems. I founded Paris and got two SP, and the following cities each gave me 2 points in the expansion column (the fith in Picardy only gave me one, bu I think this is correct).

Want me to try with other civilizations? I think they all must be working correctly, because losing so much stability in the first city would be a disaster with any civ and someone would come here complaining about it

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Thanks for checking!
No need to try it with other civs