Stairway to Heaven #2: Pacal II of the Maya

@sampsa: isn't it a little funny that you settle 1st city on the Pig, but don't settle the 2nd city on jungle Sugar?

Yes, pure stupidity on my part.

I have to say this map is kinda rofl...

i can see one way how to do it with map foreknowledge, but no way you would guess it

Well that's encouraging

@vranasm

actually I think someone should post this map to Absolutezero I know he loves playing financial civs and I think this one would make very good educational video series...

Don't get discouraged, pomthom! Just keep the logical course. You have a good capitol and decent land around you. And you are financial. You'll find a way out of any bad spot.

Ah! This is very funny!

2240 BC:

@RagingHordes:

2000 BC re-visited

Update to 1320 BC:


Sorry for spamming your thread, pomthom.

sampsa said:

Sorry for spamming your thread, pomthom.

Click to expand...

No problem, man. Haven't looked at your posts yet because I want to be a bit further down the road before opening those spoilers.


Played 23 turns: from 3560 BC to 2640 BC (turn 34)

As forseen, by not settling on the Pigs my start is slow...

First of all I decided to pass on the Oracle. Early expansion is going to be rough, I need to be able to work proper improvements and build proper infra.

I decide to go AH before BW because I want to grow quickly to size 4 and pump out settlers (slow build the 1st ~9turns, chop the 2nd [with OF in Worker], then grow to size 6 and whip the 3rd [with OF in Worker]).

I'm not going to settle them as soon as they're out, but place them where I want to grab some land so that I can insta-settle if I see AI housewarming parties going to the spot.

With such invasive creative neighbours, I really think grabbing land will be key to possible success (even if it means suffering economically at the start of the game). What do you think?

Back to the action:




So here's our situation:


Cathy and Sury are in my face, here's a first sketch of where I'd eventually put some cities you may need to zoom to read properly):



The Horse spot is very poor but Horses might turn out to be my 1 saving grace... I'm even pondering settling on the Horses for a faster start!

No idea in which order I should settle the cities because I'm afraid I'm going to lose land. What I think I'll do is send my 2 first settlers on the Horse and Banana spots but settle only if the spots are threatened... Then settle West for my second city. Seems really weak...

Also I'm pondering between Hunting and the Wheel. I'd like to build Holkans after my first Settlers for Barb + contingency defense but I don't really need them now.

pomthom said:

No problem, man. Haven't looked at your posts yet because I want to be a bit further down the road before opening those spoilers.

Click to expand...

OK. I won't post another update before you have caught up anyway. My game is less important as I'm playing the map for the 2nd time now.

I really like 2nd city 3S of capital to share the corn. The main benefit of your settling is that you can share food (because you didn't settle on it ). Be quick with those settlers and careful that you get the spots you want. Use your scouting warriors to see their settler-parties in time.

It's so crowded that you definitely won't need Holkans vs barbs. Fogbust N and NE to avoid unnecessary embarrassment.

Forgoing the Oracle: Fair enough!
AH before BW: prolly a good move.
I think, however, you should have aimed to improve the gold first and start on the settler at size 3. You'd have lost a little production, gained a little commerce and gotten a slightly earlier city 2 (I think, yes?). Not really sure how it balances out.

@ Your initial scouting: you went too far away west.
Now. The good point is that we can see there's actually quite a bit of land in the west, whereas we spawned in the NE corner.

You're right that it'll be difficult to secure room to expand into.
2 Creative neighbours to the south is no joke. They aren't particularly peaceful, on top of that.

@ City sites:
- The east will block land along the northern coast. That's good but maybe a premature settlement. I dislike the idea of settling on the bananas, since it's a really good tile, once improved. The area isn't scouted completely, yet, so no trouble. You should remove that ALT+X fat cross for now, until you know exactly how the land is laid out.
- The south gets you a strategic resource (good), a city sandwiched between 2 creative AIs (bad), with no possibility of culture support from another city (bad), longer shared borders (bad = land target), and it may quicken the pace at which Sury expands NE (bad) and Cathy plain north (bad).
*whistling* That ain't just good. 2nd city by the horses forces you into a rush. At the latest, with horse archers. And that option could be strong. Rushing is a prime way to stabilize an unstable board. Capturing neighbouring cities also offsets most of the "bad" points mentionned above. Go, go HBR if you settle there (Chariots = gutsy!). Maybe even skipping Writing, and maybe investing in Pottery for FIN goodness.
If looking at the exact spot, I'd advise to make the most of the requirement to separate cities by 3 tiles, so that neither Cathy nor Sury can further settle the area. 1S of the horses looks like the best long-term location to me (gets sugar). The hill, 1SW of the horses is also very good and a defensive spot (good x2).
- West blocks the most land. If you want a peaceful early game, that's where I'd put my 2nd. Hoping for a peaceful early game might be naive, however.
If the aim is to block as much land as possible, then I wouldn't settle 3 tiles away but rather 4, or even 5. The plains hills north of Cathy's city is appealing but the "culture threat" will be great. Both plains between the flood plains are alright. Start with a Monument is compulsory (imo) for such a city. Monument first is compulsory for horses city too, by the way

Sooo... Active action vs peaceful prayers... Make your choice?
The Wheel, Pottery, HBR looks good to me.

Won't be easy, best of luck!

ps: If you decide to settle by the horses,
I'd strongly suggest to (re-)read Vicawoo's excellent Horse archer rush guide before executing anything.

You'll probably want to settle 2 more cities asap to increase your military production. 1 west & 1 east could be fitting: block the coastline! Capturing cities is strong but backfilling is stronger (cheaper).

4 cities and a workforce of 4-6 dudes could make it happen.
Settle more and you should get Writing before HBR (to offset higher maintenance). The 5th city could (should?) be timed with the discovery of HBR. Maybe use it to complete the western block.

To get there:
Cottages, cottages, cottages.

BornInCantaloup said:

- Forgoing the Oracle: Fair enough!
- AH before BW: prolly a good move.
- @ Your initial scouting: you went too far away west.
- 2 Creative neighbours to the south is no joke. They aren't particularly peaceful, on top of that.
- The east will block land along the northern coast. That's good but maybe a premature settlement.

Click to expand...

Agree with these.

BornInCantaloup said:

- The south gets you a strategic resource (good), a city sandwiched between 2 creative AIs (bad), with no possibility of culture support from another city (bad), longer shared borders (bad = land target), and it may quicken the pace at which Sury expands NE (bad) and Cathy plain north (bad).*whistling* That ain't just good. 2nd city by the horses forces you into a rush. At the latest, with horse archers.

Click to expand...

This is less clear to me. I see nothing wrong with the horse spot I mentioned (3S cap) and would not start with a monument there (cause unnecessary border tension, I happily allow them to steal mediocre tiles from my BFC). Sury expanding to the sugar/banana jungle is not the end of the world, is it? Is there anything special N of Cathy? I like to allow AIs expand to weak/slow spots. It's pretty hard NOT to become a land target of them eventually, right?

BornInCantaloup said:

If looking at the exact spot, I'd advise to make the most of the requirement to separate cities by 3 tiles, so that neither Cathy nor Sury can further settle the area. 1S of the horses looks like the best long-term location to me (gets sugar). The hill, 1SW of the horses is also very good and a defensive spot (good x2).

Click to expand...

Those spots are so slow that I wouldn't consider them. I accept the possibility that you know better.

sampsa said:

This is less clear to me. I see nothing wrong with the horse spot I mentioned (3S cap) and would not start with a monument there (cause unnecessary border tension, I happily allow them to steal mediocre tiles from my BFC). Sury expanding to the sugar/banana jungle is not the end of the world, is it? Is there anything special N of Cathy? I like to allow AIs expand to weak/slow spots. It's pretty hard NOT to become a land target of them eventually, right?

Those spots are so slow that I wouldn't consider them. I accept the possibility that you know better.

Click to expand...

Interesting.

@ settling 3S of capital.
This is a stronger city than the ones I suggest. Granted! Acess to corn is very good.
However, that leaves room for further AI cities:
- 3S or 3S1W of the spot; if Sury settles there, that's 2 cities pressuring our own.
- 3W or 3W1N or 3W1S of the spot, a location for Cathy to settle. If Cathy also gets the southern spot, that's 2 of her cities pressuring our own.
Reducing culture pressure is the reason why I suggest a lesser location: less opposing cities = less culture pressure. Also, opposing cities would be 4-5 tiles away instead of 3.
Monument aims at controling the tiles. One can't work the tiles he doesn't control.
Khmer and Russian cities will soon produce 5 culture/turn and will (likely) go beyond or get close to 10 culture/turn in the BCs. Having a 2 culture/turn monument asap is a high stake to me.
Border tensions will catch up with the player wherever he settles, indeed. But therefore: better prepare for it. Hence the hill city has my preference, despite having no food.

You're right the southern spots (hill and 1S of horses) would be slow to develop. However, they would access the horse tile, which is a strong tile (strong enough to get Monument and Granary). So they're not pure junk cities.
Finally, less AI cities = less cities to capture.

I think it's worth it to sacrifice a little in development to get a better map position... but I may be wrong on that matter


Finally,
North of Cathy are fish tiles. Good with libraries.
Losing the sugar to Sury is, indeed, not a big deal, provided Sury is an early target. Otherwise Sugar, dyes & bananas are a formidable resource cluster.

Well yeah there is no way that city (3S of cap) can culturally fight vs creative AIs. Holding most 1st ring tiles would be ok. But the main function of the city is to:

- claim horses for good
- borrow corn to grow
- work 5(!) cottages for bureau cap

and it seems to do the job brilliantly.

So that would be my 2nd city and 3rd to the west, probably to a tile where it can borrow pigs.

I have very limited experience in HA rushing on Deity (well did it once vs Pacal, but it was a dogpile war), so really no idea how well that would work.

Indeed, cottage sharing is a strong argument. That vs holding more tiles.

However, sharing the corn and then sharing the pigs is just the same as settling a no-food city Not so good, although growth can be monitored more easily that way.

It seems to me that Mutal can handle 2 food tiles and that sharing that food isn't of the utmost importance.

I may be wrong on that account. Not sure. This is somewhat hard to judge for me I'm thinking WAR when I advocate settling South of the horses. Maybe that sheds some light on my reasoning.

Both food resources can't be simultaneously given away (until cap is in max size), that is true. But it does add a LOT of flexibility.

Mutal can handle food, sure, but sharing it speeds up growth in auxiliary cities --> they will grow cottages sooner. And those cottages are given back to Mutal when Mutal wants them. Right?

Even if you want war, to me 3S of cap looks like the best spot to claim horsie.