Replay #8 4 µ m8s <3

Just a very very slight correction to what STW said, but I think that it's not really AGG-AI that slows down the tech-tempo, but AI being in war, reducing the setting of their slider by 20% by code. AGG-AI of course is more often in war than normal AI, or at least, it takes less to keep AGG-AIs at war than it takes to keep normal AIs in war (bribe-value reduced, AIs are more aggressive from nature... ) , so I have to correct myself again, AGG-AI does reduce the tech-tempo directly, because the human having to trade less techs for them to go to war, already is the greatest reduce overall, because the 2nd greatest enhancement in tech-tempo is the human acting as a tech-broker, greatest enhancement of course all AIs having the same religion / sharing the same war so being friendly towards each other.
 
I disagree with the assessment of Trebuchets being not worthwhile. While Trebuchets are only good attacking cities, they have very good odds of surviving with CR2 versus flat cities and with CR3 versus hill cities.

I would not underestimate the engineering rush via GS bulbing both Machinery and Engineering.

For Cho-Ku-Nu rush, I agree that Engineering is not needed, but GS bulbing Machinery is certainly viable.

Sun Tzu Wu

You misunderstood me. I corrected already my statement that "trebs are absolutely worthless" , and said I do build them, and I do exactly for the reason you mentioned (CR) . However, the "very good odds of surviving" I have to experience myself yet, against the really large AI-stacks, I often experience losing at least 4-5 Trebs, that's again a number, at which we'd have to make tests to prove if they're really as good as players imagine, because 4-5 Trebs could also be 7-8 Catapults, and 7-8 Catapults are also way enough to ensure the troops have really good chances at winning afterwards. Don't forget that a Catapult is a lot cheaper than a Treb, so when only bombarding cities, they're clearly superior, assuming they have accuracy. Trebs for me have become a niche unit, I do build them, but only in very small numbers.
 
Slowing down the AI's techology rate is one way of staying ahead of the AI technologically at Deity level. The other is shrewd techology trading. One doesn't really need to feed the AIs technolgies at Deity level. They usually do quite well on their own and the player's self-interest tech trades (as opposed to feeding them technologies).

Irregardless, one of the effects of Aggressive AI is a slight decease in AI technology rate. One takes advantage of this whether or not one realizes it or not. I'm surprised that you have not acknowledged this.

Sun Tzu Wu

it was a rhetorical question
 
No. I still have 3 full videos on my harddisk, but before publishing those, I'd want to record a commentary, and those videos again wouldn't be as good as one that I'd play atm., because I've learend a lot since then. They are good, but recording the commentary would take me a lot of time, and I'm not sure, if doing a writeup isn't the superior way, because one learns better and different from reading something imho.

I will, if others agree, though write the next part about what happened again, as I think the opening phase of a game is the most important one, and I said I'd share my whole knowledge, so i think those moves derseve being mentioned, there are also things to be added and things to be repeated. I basically hoped the readers of this thread would ask more questions, because that'd make it a lot easier as it'd lead me to knowing what came to short. I think the process of decision itself be worth mentioning, though I think that I wrote a lot about that already, and explaining every choice without being asked first is difficult, as they come natural to me because of the experience I have.
 
Eagerly waiting for that next part...I will be disappointed if you build anything other than Cho-Ko-Nus and Catapults for the next thousand years ;).

I think one reason for not too many questions is that you already give very exhaustive explanations of what leads to your decisions - which is a very good thing as I'm learning a lot from that. Most games, people only say something like "Oracled Code of Laws, Libbed Military Tradition, Domination in 1350 AD" and leave you wondering HOW they exactly got to that point.
 
You play an interesting balance between risky play and solid play.
I don't think this balance (leaning on risky) is for the non-HoF player, so kids, don't try this at home!, but it's cool to see it work out for you.
I see you are yourself amazed it's working out so well, so it must be a particularly crazy strategy even for you. :)
 
After finishing this game though, would you say the Stonehenge paid off what hammers on those turns should pay off, or was it a waste, as I am now suspecting?
 
I'd say it probably helped his conquests become useful faster.. but then again I am probably by far the worst player here ^_^
 
Eagerly waiting for that next part...I will be disappointed if you build anything other than Cho-Ko-Nus and Catapults for the next thousand years ;).

I think one reason for not too many questions is that you already give very exhaustive explanations of what leads to your decisions - which is a very good thing as I'm learning a lot from that. Most games, people only say something like "Oracled Code of Laws, Libbed Military Tradition, Domination in 1350 AD" and leave you wondering HOW they exactly got to that point.

Ok, for you...

I built nothing but Cho-Ko-Nu's! It's just that when the GL came along, that I just couldn't... And then the Parthenon came, and I thought... But I'll assure you, I did refrain myself from building.... Oh, cannot remember, will write the next part soon and we'll find out if (or which) wonders I skipped in this game ^^ .

Thx for you telling me, that my answers are very detailed, and that they're explaining how I "got to that point" . It's basically what I don't understand about the games people post in S&T, where's the point in telling "I ... ... .. ." if not telling about the most important, the "how" ? Maybe this is just me, being a student, but what interests me in the games of others, is what I can learn from them to improve my own games. How someone gets somewhere is trivial, as "everything is somewhere else, and you get there in a car" (^^) , but what did he think, see or feel on the way towards that? This is, what transfers HoF experience to others, it's something absolutely unique.

You play an interesting balance between risky play and solid play.
I don't think this balance (leaning on risky) is for the non-HoF player, so kids, don't try this at home!, but it's cool to see it work out for you.
I see you are yourself amazed it's working out so well, so it must be a particularly crazy strategy even for you. :)

You have to evaluate on that a little. I obviously play very controled and very efficient, and try to make the best choices, but Deity simply makes some approaches being gambles. What someone in the need to win a specific round would have to learn, would most likely be to not risk too much, but the last one is trivial. HoF obviously allows me to gamble for things, but I (also obviously) don't want to lose because of a gamble, because it'd mean losing the time I invested into playing up 'til that point.

Your observation on me being amazed myself, is correct, it was only 4 weaks before playing this game, that I still said things like "getting Oracle + Mids in an Incan game is impossible" , but CIV showed me that I was wrong :) . Civs don't always go for Oracle early, they don't always build the Mids early, and going for heavy Wonder-spam is usually not the approach players use when playing for conquest, but of course it's nice having them as Wonders usually always pay for themselves, so... :

After finishing this game though, would you say the Stonehenge paid off what hammers on those turns should pay off, or was it a waste, as I am now suspecting?

Stonehenge paid pack far more, than tha hammers I invested into it. I think, that in the end of the game, I had almost 100 cities, but in the situation that you're already familiar with, me having 4 cities:

4 Monuments = Cost of Stonehenge, so with me not losing any important sites because of the delay it caused on Settler-building, it already payed back at that moment. 1 city of course has to be subtracted, because the holy city would have had it's borderpop anyhow, but I'm going to get just so many cities in the near future of that round, that the question must not be if Stonehenge was worth it, but it should be "how many times did Stonehenge pay back for itself in Hammers" .

I thought the same about Stonehenge like you did when playing Civ for less amount of time yet, I thought "investing those hammers is at least not worth the delay it causes to settling" , but the number that's in my head is somewhere near 20, standing for the number of cities I had after conquering Lizzy's empire, and 20 monuments, that's a huge some of hammers, and while earlier settlers are great, having a monument in a new city at size 1 is also really nice, but it's the lack of early sources of culture that really decides whether stonehenge is / was or will be worth it. You can take it like you want, but building a Missionary for every city, or building a Monument, or Theaters, Libraries, whatever, all of those cost Hammers, the only good free source of Culture are Artists with Caste-System, and Caste won't be available for a long time and running Caste in a Conquest game would be like not running REP when going for Space.

So I'm very sure, that Stonehenge was more than worth it. It payed back multiple times the amount of hammers invested, and I find it to be a very nice source of early culture.

And: Almost forgot the most important thing:

Without Stonhenge, I'd have had no Prophet for a super-early Shrine in the freshly conquered holy city named "Nottingham" .
 
Thanks, Seraiel, for the answer! :)
I see your point and agree with you. It's hard not to agree, your game is such a big success!
It was really cool to get a GProf just in time. Lizzy wouldn't have been able to build a Shrine for you this early, so it all worked out marvelously in the end!
Well, enjoy working on the next update. Subscribed! :thumbsup:
 
Time for the next update!

So 'til now, everything worked out in a way, that's absolutely amazing. Getting Stonehenge was really nice, and it turned out to be as nice as thought, which is very very nice, due to the number of cities that come along with the game being on a Huge map. Getting the Mids, without enforcing their build too much, is as nice as getting to 3 cities that are in decent locations, it's probably even nicer, but: Getting Oracle at about 1000 BC and being able to select Machinery as a tech, is the absolute game-breaker, while getting a a "Super-Shrine" (Shrine on Huge map) will again show to be a game-breaker in the future!

So let's go step by step:



This is only very slightly later than from what you know already. I decided that even though I built tons of buildings, that getting the Library was a must, because I had very bad experiences with games where I wasn't able to aquire an academy lately. This screenshot is also to show the amazing power of a Shrine on a Huge map at this time already, because +9 GPT are really much, and that Shrine is only at the beginning of the power it'll gain throughout the round.
The score and position don't say too much. Most interesting information is coming from the scoreboard atm.: Espionage tells, that Lizzy will reach Alpha soon, making peace with her not attractive, but as the tech-screen tells that... :



Lizzy has a tech to bribe others against me and as... :



She's got Spears on top. That's 3 good reasons for peace.



------------------------

Time to become a Jew, to improve relations with neighbour Lincoln. I also gift all Civs the small techs that you could see on the prior screenshot (Priesthood, Polytheism, Monatheism for which I trade and yes, even Alpha, because Civs are always willing to trade Alpha, Monarchy and Scientific Method) resulting in this diplomatic situation in 1050 BC:



Little better already. Most important though is, when will that Iron finally go online?



Right, De Gaulle has also heard of the Bling that the germans got from the chinese, anyhow, no deals with someone wanting to DoW me already, sry. What I wanted to show is / was:



This is only 1 turn later of what you saw already, giving some information about the tempo at which I play at that moment...



Uuuhhh. With Americans Peter means Lincoln in this case. Sry Peter, no possibility for this atm., I cannot risk getting bad relations with Lincoln atm., I'm trying to kill Lizzy.



The log, giving away some really valuable information. De Gaulle DoWed Pacal instead of me, which is lol lol lol. They're both bad-boys, and they're ment to fight the others, now 2 bad AIs are in wars with each other... Really valuable though, is that Judaism is spreading like a plague atm.. With having gotten a scout in the beginning, I was able to reaveal big parts of the map. It "infecting" 2 Civs that didn't have a religion until that time, is again lucky though, and important: Pacal build the GLH. GLH is the most commong reason for the commonly known "runaway AI" , so I'll have to watch out from now on.

I have to make another stop at AIs converting to Judaism though:



This screen is showing, that the Jews are becoming a dominant religion in this game. Washington, Lincoln Roosevelt and Frederick have all become Jews, and because you play CIV yourselves, you know what this means: Yes, I'm having the really strong tech-partners on my side now, and they're spreading my religion towars their cities (for me! ) now! I don't think that there was any better developement possible. It's near perfect from my opinion, because there are still enough other Civs having different religions. Roosevelt, Washington, Frederick and Lincoln are all my neighbours, so it's not only that the Srhine will greatly gain in power now, I'll also be safe from any attacks or diplomatic difficulties until the round will be very far advanced! Take a look yourselves:



This is awesome information! I'm basically safe from all directions, and there's even space to peacefully expand to in the south!

But best of all, I don't even have to settle that space myself!





Now come on, these things are really awesome. The space that's still available to settle is getting less, but it's the AIs doing the heavy lifting for me in this round, while I'm on a straight path towards war atm. :) .

So while I work hard on getting up the most necessary infrastructure, AIs are settling the cities I'm going to conquer from them, and while they are improving them for me so that they'll be in a nice status once I'll arive, they're also spreading my religion, greatly stabilizing and increasing my economy :) .



Only a very small factor in a round, now...



This is a beautiful screen imo, with which I can end this post. Iron online, cities fully improved and connected.

Now to sum this all up: All of this (end of last post with oracling Machinery until now) happened in exactly 14 turns!

Interested in what you're going to say to this.
 
Flabbergasted about so many things. You make it sound too easy. I love the fact that you mention things that I would never think about like the wars happening, the settling of cities by AI, the judaism spreading, etc.... Can you explain to me a little more how the score thing works. I never figured that thing out. You got machinery and your score increased with 60 or so. I thought the score was based on size, army, resources and techs.

And thx for mentioning that Stonehenge itself is a very usefull wonder. If you are industrious and have a good production start I almost always build it. I am somewhat allergic to monuments. In my last few games I have started to build them more and 1 pop whip them but the instant culture is just so strong.

Next round pls. Bring out the :popcorn:
 
In that game, 2 AIs researched it, but I stopped both before they could reach Rifling, as I knew that an AI getting Rifling create the need for me, to have a lot larger numbers (or it'd create the need for me to even tech further) .
They usually slightly delay Rifling itself also... not always, though, and you have some AI's with relatively high Military or Production flavours, that indeed may go for Replaceable Parts quite early.
 
I'm a bit surprised about the Library and researching Aesthetics, I would have expected you to go full-out war, meaning producing only Cho-Ko-Nus and going for the techs which would extend your warring capability (Construction, Civil Service) in the near future. I know that an Academy can be very strong, but so is starting conquering sooner and not facing Longbows for a longer time. I guess with so many fast-teching AIs (though not in this game) you will be able to trade for these techs before long anyway but I still can see reasons for beelining them.
 
I'm still having power today, so I want to publish the next part of the writeup right now too. It's very educational, so I hope you won't hate me for it, I really will try to keep it interesting ;) .

------------------

So 775 BC, only 14 turns after having Oracled Machinery. Iron is connected, De Gaulle and Pacal are in war, fighting each other and Brennus is still in WHEOOHRN. The number of the cities of the we have is still very limited, the cities itself are however are well developed:





Showing the lol-amount of :culture: that the capital is generating, and also demonstrating the power of using clever overlap. Bejing is going to be the city getting the Library, and it'll be the city having to employ the Scientists, therefor, it needs all Food it can get. Working the Gold would only hurt that Food, so being able to work it from Shanghai is a big advantage. Getting the first GP(s) from the capital, is almost always the right choice, as that city can simply start so much earlier on the GP-generation, that it's something one should do. In this specific case, there are even more reasons: The city is also getting 6 :gp: from Wonders already, which is as much as 2 Scientists would give, so GP-Generation is basically multiplied by factor 2 already.



Ganghzou is a city not having really many good tiles until now, therefor, it fulfills the role of a Worker-pump. At least it can be whipped 2 -> 1 with having a Granary, and getting a Barracks or producing Cho-Ko-Nu's without one doesn't seem very attractive with still having the need for more Workers. Having been able to work the hill it's founded on, would have been an advantage, and the mistake that happened in this case was, not recognizing that that hill is / was the only hill in the surrounding land, so 1S would have been very slightly better for this city. Anyhow, it's not gonna play a really important a really important role, so very very slight mistakes.



This city is important, it's the 2nd most important city named Nottingham! One could argue about it being the most important city because the Shrine is generating an amazing amount of Gold already, and the amount is still rising, due to AIs being so nice to spread that religion for me. Here it showed, that gifting Monotheism to the AIs even had further good effects than it only giving diplomatic bonuses, because the AIs wouldn't have been able to spread Religion as effectively without running OR. The city is still very small, but it only got a Granary recently, and it has double (weak) Food, so is not in a bad situation.

This is the tech-situation:



Important: Currency would be available already. There's no way I'm going to trade it from Peter now, as I wouldn't think of sacrificing my Machinery monopole for it, but this might change in near future.

Screen is from 700 BC, so as you've guessed probably, we are already moving.

Asoka researched Calendar, which is something, because we're having Calendar resources and Asoka trades techs with only 20% of the Civs knowing them, so it'll be easy to aquire it. Pacal having Construction and De Gaulle CoL is something that could not be prevented, because many opponents means many Civs researching many different techs simultaniously. Good though is:

Lincoln just researched Monarchy, and even with Mids, I'll trade it from him, because I've found that aquiring every tech that possible, assuming the trade is good, is something valuable, because the Civs are trading like idiots anyhow (note to @ Tachywaxon: I know Civs trading is only a dice-roll, but in my games, I've almost always seen Civs trade anything possible for anything available immediately) , and getting Monarchy for Metalcasting in this case means, having more Tradegood for giving away something that's no Monopoly, and it means that Lincoln can be so nice to build Forges in my future cities.



------------------



700 BC. Basically giving away some information on the path of research on and what the cities are producing or respectively showing, that it's really time to get go to war, and conquer some additional cities. We do want to have the HE asap, so we need a lvl 4 troop, we're in the best phase to start wars forever (we have Cho-Ko-Nu's, the AIs have Axes + Swords at most) .



Showing what we are expecting. Beautiful cities, with little to no resistance. Mostly unchopped Forrests, which will not change, because AI is really bad at chopping forrests if not being in war. London itself is a monster of city, it's got a river and 4 strong sources of Food, so is rich in production and rich in Commerce. This city is gonna play a major role in the round, because it't basically strong enough to fulfill multiple roles at once.

This is btw. what really happened in that round, I was already making plans with the cities and thinking about the next target, with not even having the Cho-Ko-Nu's for the first :lol: .

It's explaineable to make plans for a positive scenario though. Doing so maybe is still a little early, though the war against Lizzy isn't so far away.

Bejing again:



Library finished and 2 Scientists hired. Chances to get a Great Scientist are small with this much of GP-Pollution, but it's still the best choice taking this city for it, and cutting on GP-generation to create more Cho-Ku's would be a really bad tradeoff, because getting an Academy is just so extremely important.

------------------

Excursion:

Posting this goes back towards me having written with one of you, and I also was asked similar questions in previous Replay:

Topic is: How to greatly enhance your games by calculating whips!

Now you're probably :hmm: :

Here is the example:



From looking at the screen we know, that 1 Cho-Ko-Nu is 90 :hammers: on epic speed. A whip on this tempo is 44 Hammers, but in this scenario, we have the Mids and are running PS, and on top, we're building Forges in all cities city that are producing troops (and we'll not change on running Police State for a long time, so take the following values as fixed) :

44 :hammers: (value of whipping away 1 pop) * 1.5 (150%) = 66 H / pop (when building a unit, otherwise would be 55 H due to PS not being applied) .

Remembering the base value (30 on Normal, 20 on Quick, 90 (!) on Marathon and 44 for Epic) , is the work you have to do, past that, all you and me need, is a calculator, or not even that, because doing all this can easily be done by mental arithmetics and by having a memory.

Now we said that 44 H is the base, and that 66 H is the value of 1 pop with applying the modifiers from our example:

Cho-Ko-Nu is costing 90 :hammers: , so what would be a rough value for the Hammers that must not be exceeded, if wanting to whip 2 pop, something that is regarded as generally superior by many of the best players, because whipping 2pop while getting a heavy overflow into the next unit ontop, basically reduces whips by 3 times if compared to 1pop-whipping?

Super, super simple. If one pop is 66 Hammers, every time more than 66 Hammers are needed it'll cost 2pop. 90 H (cost of unit) - 66 H (hammers per pop) are between 23 and 24 H (I suspect a rounding issue there about which I'm not 100% sure atm. ) , so that is the value to remember for this unit, and also the answer to the previously formulated question. Whenever 23 H aren't exceeded, it'll be a 2pop-whip, really all that is needed is to learn is the value of 1pop, because it scales with speed, and the way to getting an answer towards the formulated question, (which amount of Hammers must not be exceeded for the whip to be 2pop), is to simply apply multipliers, and then subtract that value from the cost of the unit.

------------------

Now you'll all want a break, so all we're doing 'til the end, is looking at some nice pictures: (No, not Tachywaxon XD ) :

First, Freddie comes towards us, and we cannot tell, if he's on Drugs, or not *lol* :



Then, Brennus DoWs Asoka XD . Yay XD :



As being a stupid pain in the neck (our reason for having the need to annihilate him too) , Asoka of course comes crying for help immediately:



And while we are waiting for Asoka to bribe the whole world against hate-guy Brennus, Lizzy gets...



A GS! :hmm: . Maybe Lizzy could be so nice to build an Academy for us in London?

Yes, the war is coming closer, here is the preview:



440 BC, a Great Engineer gets born O_o :



I use him to rush-build the Parthenon, other option would have been bulbing Feudalism, which sort of isn't attractive to me, because with having Cho-Ko-Nu's, Longbows are nothing compared to a 50% enhanced GP-production.

The military buildup continues and can be seen in the Power-graph:



I'm basically chopping the land clear and whip the cities as much as possible, with not sacrificing my long-term developement too much. The limiting number unfortunately still is, the very small number of the Workers that's available :/ .



Ok, now the Cho-Ko-Nu's are really rolling. (To those not getting the "Choo Choo" message on the screen, shown is the "CHOO-CHOO-NUUUU-Train" there XD. ) (Screenshot btw. also showing what I told, I'm chopping as many tress as possible and am whipping all cities except the capital down to minimum size. )

The tech-situation got slightly worse dumbass Washington teched Machinery. Trading it to Asoka for Currency though is not attractive, because it'd cause Asoka to offer that tech on the free market, so the "monopoly" is somehow still "safe" , meaning that no CIV can get Machinery by trade atm. (read Civ Illustrated #1 if you're interested to read at which threshold a certain Civ is willing to trade a tech openly) , and with having only 4 cities, the benefit from Currency wouldn't be so great anyhow.

I btw. gifted maths to various Civs to further improve diplomatic relations, but with having the Cho-Ko-Nu's you see on that screen...

I realize, that the resistance that Lizzy is opposing, is actually a lot smaller that I would have expected (see preview on the war from before. ) , and I ask myself, what the heck I'm waiting for O_o . Explanation for me building so many troops and waiting so long, was having had really bad experiences in the game I played before that, a game using AGG-AI as an option, a game where I encountered stacks that were 120+ units big in size pre-Liberalism, but the time now is 395 BC, so it's still really really early...

Read the next part, to finally read about what you're all waiting for, a war that won't end until the end of the round. It's gonna get bloody (again) , I'm gonna demolish every Civ on the map in a time that you and me find amazing ourselves, and I'll do my best, that it'll get funny too :) .

Hope you found this post to at least be interesting, and that calculating whips didn't screw your head :crazyeye: .

Questions or critique welcome as always.

Sera
 
Once again excellent! I'm always astonished at how naturally it seems to come whereas I can't apply strategies like that without being 900% focused.... oh well!
On a minor note you circled the wrong Great Scientist when Lizzy got one and you showed the log...
 
small correction. Pacal DoWed DeGaulle, not the other way around. So DeGaukle was probably after you. not that he was ever a threat.
 


Topic is: How to greatly enhance your games by calculating whips!

Now you're probably :hmm: :

Here is the example:





Do you realize that there is a yellow tick mark showing the 1-pop whip ammount? There is no need to calculate. The picture shows you can build for 3 more turns and still whip 2. On the 4th turn, you've gone too far.
 
Do you realize that there is a yellow tick mark showing the 1-pop whip ammount? There is no need to calculate. The picture shows you can build for 3 more turns and still whip 2. On the 4th turn, you've gone too far.

:eek:

Learn something new everyday. :goodjob:


Let's see, 1pop whip on Epic speed is 45:hammers:

50% bonus makes it 67.5:hammers:
Have to round down I think so 67

A 90 :hammers: Cho-ku-nu can then be two pop whipped if you are under 90-67=23 so you can make them have up to 22:hammers: and still 2pop whip.
Anymore and you can only 1pop whip.


@Seraiel - Those are eye-wateringly good screenshots! So crisp and well thought out :D
Not just simple .jpg's I'm sure.
 
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