You will win if you pause and come back here often
Iron is also my concern since having 3 sources of Copper significantly lowers the odds of having Iron. However this also means that other AIs have lower odds of having Copper (at this point only 2 of them do) so I'll probably be able to make a Copper <-> Iron trade (can already do it with Gandhi).
I'm not 100% sure about this but I believe that:
1. Copper location does not influence iron location.
2. The price of Gandhi's iron will be much more expensive in the future (as its strategic value grows)
Let's wait for the confirmation of a code spelunker
I don't think so either, but I believe there is some sort of geographic equalizer of strategic resources on any map, so I would assume having 3 Copper (and 1 Horse!) in a limited area reduces the chance of having also Iron. I'll skim through tachy's thread to see if there's seomething about that in there...
Not sure about that though. I know startegic resource can gain or lose value (Jumbos lose value once War Elephants become obsolete) but I'm not sure this would apply in considering Copper VS Iron (even though Iron >> Copper late game). I think from experience the AIs consider Copper like a strategic resource as valuable as Iron throughout the game (pure observation, I have no evidence to back this up)
Copper has strategic value as in for building Spearmen/Axemen/Macemen. However it has varying value as a resource multiplier for building a few Great Wonders like The Colossus, the Cathedrals for three out of the seven religions and even a Space Ship project. Thus, it makes sense that the AIs value Copper beyond the Ancient-Mediaevil Eras to pursue Cultural and Space Colony victories.
Strategic Resource placement is affected by whether the Standard Resource or Balanced Resource option is selected. Hall of Fame requires the (default?) Standard Resource option. Multiplayer requires the Balanced Resource option. In any case, the Standard Resource option places no extra restriction on strategic resource placement by the game. The Balanced Resource option will ensure that strategic resources are near every Civ, so with reasonably fast acquisition of the corresponding technology or just plain settler's luck, each Civ should be able to claim early and late Era resources via early city settling.
Does this mean that there are no probabilities deciding the map distribution of strategic resource? (the answer is probably in the forums but I haven't found it yet)
Let me be more specific: are the generating odds of a strategic-resource- tile completely uncorrelated with the presence of another strategic resource nearby? If the answer is no, then although there would be no way to predict the appearance of technologically hidden strategic resources, the chance of having another appear would decline for every other strategic resource in the area.
Other than the Standard Resources/Balanced Resources option, I believe that strategic (as well as non-strategic) resource location is solely map script driven. As I (mis)understand it, the distribution of resources is random within the parameters of the map script (assuming the Standard Resources option). The Balanced Resources option ensures some level of resource balance between the AIs (if any) and the Player(s).
I really don't know the details of how this is done. "Luke, use the source!" With the Civ IV SDK, it should be possible to get to see how map scripts determine the types and locations of resources and thus their distribution. I'm sure that starting up a thread with this topic may catch the eye of players/code divers who either have already looked at how the game determines resource distribution or may be willing to do so now.
IMO you need to grow your cities (hint hint) to pay the bills... and then get more cities. The barb city was worth keeping with Oasis+Clams, it's a decent +6F spot that pays for itself relatively quickly - now it's a 100H investment.
What the queued spies are for, I cannot fathom this early. You'd be better to set up a trap city inside your cultural borders (but close enough to Darius so that he will accept it) than paying upkeep for spies.
Other than the Standard Resources/Balanced Resources option, I believe that strategic (as well as non-strategic) resource location is solely map script driven. As I (mis)understand it, the distribution of resources is random within the parameters of the map script (assuming the Standard Resources option). The Balanced Resources option ensures some level of resource balance between the AIs (if any) and the Player(s).
I really don't know the details of how this is done. "Luke, use the source!" With the Civ IV SDK, it should be possible to get to see how map scripts determine the types and locations of resources and thus their distribution. I'm sure that starting up a thread with this topic may catch the eye of players/code divers who either have already looked at how the game determines resource distribution or may be willing to do so now.
IMO you need to grow your cities (hint hint) to pay the bills... and then get more cities. The barb city was worth keeping with Oasis+Clams, it's a decent +6F spot that pays for itself relatively quickly - now it's a 100H investment.
Weeeeeeell OK you're probably right but I just couldn't convince myself of it.
Saving those 100H now would have hurt my economy a lot for a significant amount of turns. It would have meant having a 6th city that is unconnected to my empire (so further stress on my Workers) and has no immediate production (no forests, no improved high food yield tile) while my other cities are under developped and I still don't have Currency... Sacrificing commerce for development is a good deal, but it's hard for me to consider this a "healthy" development. Had I had an available Settler at the time, I wouldn't have settled him even on a better spot because I would have thought the timing VS my economy build-up wasn't right.
Plus this would be the last City I backfill, so we're talking of losing 100 hammers in a bit of time (maybe with factories and OR?). OK it's still 100 hammers
Buuuuuut I know that most of this is noob-whining and that, in the end, keeping that Barb city would have paid-off... The idea just brutalizes my instincts too much
What the queued spies are for, I cannot fathom this early. You'd be better to set up a trap city inside your cultural borders (but close enough to Darius so that he will accept it) than paying upkeep for spies.
Of course you're right about the spies, I just queued them by default before posting here because I didn't know what to build.
About the trap city inside my borders I'm not sure I get what you're referring to. You mean gifting a city that's actually inside my borders to farm espionnage steals? I don't even know where I would put that and what rules apply for Darius deciding if he would accept or not.
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Played 10 turns: from 800 BC to 550 BC (turn 93)
Not much happened, I played up until Currency.
Made these deals:
Spoiler:
(hooking up a 2nd Gold in 2 turns)
So now that IW is in the bag..... DO WE HAVE IRON??? [drums]
NOOOOOOO it's a big fat fail. Oh well, at least soundjata is happy now
Anyhow I built 2 more Workers, continued my Cottage frenzy, chopped a Granary in Alexandria, and just whipped a Settler.
I also got my first GS and built an Academy in Thebes.
NB: I just queued 1 more Worker and 1 more Settler but I don't know if necessary/too early (I have 8 Workers for 5 soon to be 6 maybe 7 jungle/desert cities).
So here's our situation:
1. Techs
Here's the score:
What should I do about all the little techs? I hate trading for these and waste WFYABTA chips... However Mysticism is becoming very blocking tech-path-wise. I can research it in 1 turn at 60% .
What should I tech next? Gandhi is litterally flying away... (he's built the MoM in 675 BC btw. I'm not an expert but that sounds early.)
2. Cities
I've grown a bit in 10 turns and I now produce more Gold at 100% than I lose at 100% .
Am I ready for an other city? I'm thinking 1S of the Gold won't be too tough because it has improved tiles to work including the Gold.
Cities:
Spoiler:
Here I am farming the GL 1S of lake:
3. Iron Man
Quoting nobody: "having no Iron is a prolem if you intend to Cuir rush".
This opens up the possibility of a Construction war on Joao, who happens to have a city sitting on Iron just 2 tiles away from my borders... What say you?
Ideally, the trap city would be as close to your capital as possible but no more than 9 tiles away from the target's closest city (diagonal counts as 1.5 tiles).
This way you reduce both distance and culture discounts. Plus your spies don't have a long way to walk.
Orange will require 2 border pops (500, 5000) before you start accumulating culture discount on the trap city so I'd say it's not really great in that regard.
Purple would be ideal, but if distance is too great then it doesn't work of course. You'd need to gift him an extra city in the middle.
Ideally, the trap city would be as close to your capital as possible but no more than 9 tiles away from the target's closest city (diagonal counts as 1.5 tiles).
This way you reduce both distance and culture discounts. Plus your spies don't have a long way to walk.
Slight correction on the distance requirement. It is 9.5 plots or less from the target AI's nearest city. Although it probably no longer applies in this game, a target AI will accept any city as a gift, if it has less than four cities.
Close as possible to one's Capital ideally is 3 plots away orthogonally. Not sure how "trap" cities in the capital's ring 3 would compare. Note that the capital should have ring 3 culture to allow culture spread missions in the trojan horse (trap) city which may be used to increase the city culture espionage discount.
Note that it is very important to allow your culture to build up in the trap city, before giving it to the AI target Civ; with 0 culture, you will not get a city culture discount at all; even 1 culture can provide a -50% city culture discount; a few turns with one's state religion is the easy way to build up culture. This may also allow one to get the -15% state religion discount; one gets an additional -25% for owning the corresponding holy city. The state religion discount does not apply if the target AI has the same state religion though.
Two more comments about trojan cities are they are usually overwhelmed by one's own culture such that even adjacent plots are safe from the AI's culture (after the gift turn though) and you may need to station your own military there to help keep the trap city from revolting too much (some espionage discounts are lost when the city is revolting). Obviously, stationing one's own military in the trap city requires open borders.
OK I think I'll change my EPP to Gandhi and gift him the Trojan for these reasons:
- He's obviously running away in tech, having managed to settle a lot of cities
- He has a city nearby so will accept the Trojan
- He is a Buddhist and I am most likely to become a Hindu (as per my neighbours Jo' and Dar') so I will get the -15% off in steals from the Trojan city (without having to bother with temporary religious conversions)
Is changing my EPP from Darius to Gandhi now too much of a waste?
With regards to setting up the poisonous gift, I have the following questions:
- How much must I accumulate before gifting the Trojan and what influence does accumulated pre-gift have regarding spy missions?
- kossin mentioned "accumulating" culture discounts, I guess this means the discount will increase as my capitole's culture increases? I tested briefly the Trojan on an other game and the discount was only -5% when I had just gifted it.
- Once the Trojan is set-up, do you know what is the optimal number of spies that should be posted in it?
- I have a Settler that's available. Should I found the Trojan now or concentrate on development first since I still have very decent spots to settle (and my economy can handle it) ?
One wants at least 1 culture in the "trap" city. If cultural pressure is so strong that the city is often in disorder that might be enough. As long as the player has more than 1 culture and the AI has 0 culture, the city culture discount will be at (absolute) maximum of -50%. In a a practical sense to ensure getting a good city culture discount for a relativiely long time, it may be wise to accumulate about 100 culture in the "trap" city before giving it away. Note that as the AI accumulates culture, the city culture discount will decrease to -25% when player city culture = AI city culture. Also note that with at least 100 culture, the Spread Culture mission can help keep the city culture discount near -50% in 5 or more culture increments at very little cost in espionage points; note that the Spread Culture mission provides 5% of the total culture in the city = (city culture of all Civs totalled together) / 20.
The optimal number of Spies depends on one's temporal sensivtivity to acheiving one's ultimate goal, presumably stealing technologies and one's rate and tolerance to losing Spies to detection/compromise. A single spy will have a significantly greater mission success percentage than a stack of Spies (rougly 15-20% better chances - for example 79% rather than 62%). Some players recommend 5 or more Spies to ensure effectively about 99% chance of at least one succeeding. The more espionage points spent, the lower spy detection rate becomes and the higher the mission success becomes. The lower one's mission success is, the more spies one will want to stack to get say a 99% effective mission success over all. Take the mission failure % and convert to a probabilty. For example, 30% -> 0.3 probability; 4 spies will have a 0.3 * 0.3 * 0.3 * 0.3 = 0.0081 probability = 0.81% of failure. (Note that the last spy will have better odds, but we can ignore this now for simplicity.) Thus, one wants at least four spies stacked. This will be more or less than four depending on the % failure with stacked spies; also more spies will be needed, if one has a lower tolerance for failure, say 0.01% = 0.0001 probabilty, which may be reasonable for stealing a time critical technology. To account for spy detection prior to the mission, one may want 0-5 additional spies inversely dependent on one's espionage point spending level versus one's opponent. So against an enemy that has done a lot of espionage spending and/or if the player has spent very little espionage points, add 3-5 spies to the four that need to survive. One may need more than 5, if the espionage spending ratio is strongly in favor of the AI.
For the first technology steal, one can have a stack of spies waiting five turns in the "trap" city prior to giving the city away. Stealing a technology on the same turn, avoids non-mission spy detection altogether which only occurs IBT (in between turns = effectively the AIs part of the turn).
I'd suggest settling the "trap" city ASAP to accumulate as much culture there as reasonably possible. Spread one's state religion there immediately, especially when the target AI has a different state religion. Building culture, caste system artists and owning Stonehenge or The Sistine Chapel for the 2 culture per turn per specialist are all quick ways to get culture in the "trap" city prior to giving it away. If one is desperate for culture, use the culture slider.
While waiting for the culture to accumulate, build units when not able to build culture and whip units (spies are a good choice) until the city is down to 1P on the turn one decides to give it to the target AI.
Square 3 distance penalties from the Capital (minimum city distance from the capital):
3 orthogonal plots away (3-N, 3-E, 3-S, or 3-W): +4%
2 orthogonal & 1 diagonal plots away (same as above plus 1 plot to either right angle - i.e. 3-N+1-E or 3-N+1-W, etc.): +4%
1 orthogonal & 2 diagonal: ? (did not test this yet)
3 diagonal (3-NE, 3-SE, 3-SW, or 3-NW): +5%
An orthogonally poisitioned "trap" city is best, since player culture from the capital will reduce the workable plots to the city center and maybe a few ring 2 plots. A diagonally positioned "trap" city is not as good, since that may allow a few workable ring 1 plots and several workable ring 2 plots.
The above assumes a capital with ring 3 or ring 4 culture. Note that the Spread Culture mission will not be possible with a ring 3 capital and the last 2 of the above four position types.
OK I'll use my available Settler to set-up the Purple spot as a future Trojan:
If I need time to accumulate some I'll start now ; the spot won't be a total drag before it is gifted because it can work shared tiles. Don't know if I'll accumulate 100:culture though...
Will also switch my EPP on Gandhi because he seems to be a better tech'er this game and my #1 contender for Lib. I might be able to found Taoism which would allow me get an even greater discount.
Nobody has commented on my lacking Iron, not sure how this influences my immediate decisions... Will play a few turns, maybe this will clear a bit more fog.
The purple plot is fine, though 1-W will leave the AI with fewer workable tiles. That may happen when your capital gets to cultural radius 4. The "trap" city will be trapped in your culture. Ideally, one can found a city to keep which will also pressure the "trap" city cultural from the opposite direction than from the capital. Thus, the "trap" city will be surrounded by the culture of these two cities.
To generate culture in the "trap" city, again spreading your state religion would be the easiest. Owning the Stonehenge would instantly add 1 Cpt, though probably not possible intem your current game. A Caste System Artist would greatly accelerate the culture rate with Code of Laws and the Spiritual trait makes it easy to switch between Slavery and Caste System every 5 or more turns.
By founding Taoism, I presume you plan to use your Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy?
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than I lose at 100% 
steals from the Trojan city (without having to bother with temporary religious conversions)
must I accumulate before gifting the Trojan and what influence does accumulated 
