Wonder Elimination Thread

I lost nearly everything except Petra in my last game, and lost the game by 6 turns (the number of turns behind Pedro I was on finishing the final spaceship part) - getting Pisa or Porcelain Tower would have won me the game

Winning Petra and not PT - there must not have been very many hills in your Petra city. I kept playing my game - the city I lost building Petra in was already a good production city without it (desert hills but with 2 sheep and 10 river tiles) and built MP, PT, and Eiffel later. So to the naysayers from before it's crazy to say desert cities aren't good if they don't get Petra m'kay.
 
Leaning Tower: 40
Sistine: 31

Honestly, I find both of these in odd spots in the tech tree for my style of play, so I often miss both of them. Still, I miss the Sistine Chapel more, and I get along fine without it, especially when my culture comes from city states.
 
Winning Petra and not PT - there must not have been very many hills in your Petra city.

It wasn't the best I've had, but I suspect it was more a case of Catherine reaching Architecture before I did.

I kept playing my game - the city I lost building Petra in was already a good production city without it (desert hills but with 2 sheep and 10 river tiles)

I made this point several times in support of Petra in the thread, but it didn't save it. You don't build Petra anywhere you wouldn't build a city anyway, so it doesn't carry the risk people tend to imagine. Why would you? 20 production + 20 food isn't all that much by itself at the game stage when you have 20 pop, plus you need the ability to get that much pop (and the Wonder) to begin with; Petra's power lies in the ability to make a good city a great city, not to make a poor city a mediocre one. Just because the AI will build it in bad spots or those with one desert tile is no reason for the player to follow suit.

Hills are hills, sheep are sheep, and rivers are rivers and a river with a flood plain is still a river with a flood plain even though Petra has no extra effect on it. Plus, where you happen to have the site anyway, solar plants are more reliable than nuclear plants since you can't rely on uranium (unfortunately they're not as attractively-placed in the tech tree).

Leaning Tower of Pisa: 42
Sistine Chapel:25

We might as well just close the poll now - the choice between these two is simply so obvious, it's not anywhere near as close as (from recollection) the Oracle/Petra top 2 the last time the thread came up. As with every GP production booster, LT only became more powerful with BNW, and it was one of the best Wonders previously. Sistine Chapel basically is what it was and has been since at least Civ IV - essential for culture victory, simply very powerful otherwise, but it doesn't have anything like the flexibility of Pisa and is generally a little harder to get.
 
Leaning Tower of Pisa: 43
Sistine Chapel:22

Leaning Tower is easier to get, more flexible and can get you a lot of things, such as culture pop, tourism, free tech, free wonder, golden age. Sistine Chapel probably gets you maybe one or two extra policies in the long run.
 
Leaning Tower of Pisa: 45
Sistine Chapel:16

Pick a Great Person, any Great Person. Choose wisely. :newyear:
 
Leaning Tower of Pisa: 46
Sistine Chapel: 13

The tower wins thanks to flexibility. Also, I'm a bit amused that the wonder that looks like it's gonna win is the one that's famous for a major flaw.
 
How did Sistine Chapel get this far? did they just ignore it randomly?

Leaning Tower of Pisa: 49
Sistine Chapel: 4

Doubt it. Sistine is GREAT for culture games, and a grand way to say "NOPE" to other tourism civs with your huge amounts of culture.
But it's just no leaning tower.
 
NOW I get it. I thought it had something to do with game play.

Leaning Tower of Pisa: 48
Sistine Chapel: 7

How did Sistine Chapel get this far? did they just ignore it randomly?

Not really - people knew it was there and discussed it (unlike Hubble, which vanished for a long time until someone remembered it, so it's higher in the list than it likely would have been otherwise); it's just that the other Wonders that made it as far were things like Eiffel and Statue of Liberty that are worse than SC. Many of the best Wonders had gone before I joined in the poll, and Sistine Chapel probably is deserving of top 5 status - it's just that only two of the Wonders in the actual top 5 belonged there.
 
Not really - people knew it was there and discussed it (unlike Hubble, which vanished for a long time until someone remembered it, so it's higher in the list than it likely would have been otherwise); it's just that the other Wonders that made it as far were things like Eiffel and Statue of Liberty that are worse than SC. Many of the best Wonders had gone before I joined in the poll, and Sistine Chapel probably is deserving of top 5 status - it's just that only two of the Wonders in the actual top 5 belonged there.

Care to elaborate on what your top five would be? I agree that Eiffel ended up way overrated: it's really not that much tourism and doesn't benefit well from multipliers or anything. It's just +12, 5 happiness, and call it a day.
 
Care to elaborate on what your top five would be? I agree that Eiffel ended up way overrated: it's really not that much tourism and doesn't benefit well from multipliers or anything. It's just +12, 5 happiness, and call it a day.

There's several obviously stronger wonders than Eiffel and SoL that are just penalized for opportunity cost on high difficulty. I think this has been a very conservative round of voting. I mean what is Hanging Gardens if not the same effectual great people bonus as Leaning Tower.

A new day, a new round of helping put this thread to rest:

Leaning Tower of Pisa: 50
Sistine Chapel: 1

One more vote
 
Okay, I'll put the Sistine Chapel out of its misery. It's a good wonder, just not the greatest

Leaning Tower of Pisa: 51
Sistine Chapel: -2 = ELIMINATED
 
Angkor Wat
Pentagon
CN Tower
Terracotta Army
Parthenon
Cristo Redentor
Red Fort
Taj Mahal
Statue of Zeus
Kremlin
Great Firewall
Great Wall
Great Mosque of Djenne
Himeji Castle
Great Lighthouse
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus
Pyramids
Brandenburg Gate
Great Library
Hagia Sophia
Sydney Opera House
Alhambra
Globe Theater
Big Ben
Borobudur
Prora
Broadway
Uffizi
Louvre
Porcelain Tower
Forbidden Palace
Hanging Gardens
Temple of Artemis
Stonehenge
Notre Dame
Colossus
Chichen Itza
Machu Picchu
Petra
Neuschwanstein
Hubble Space Telescope
Statue of Liberty
Eiffel Tower
Sistine Chapel
Leaning Tower of Pisa
 
Care to elaborate on what your top five would be? I agree that Eiffel ended up way overrated: it's really not that much tourism and doesn't benefit well from multipliers or anything. It's just +12, 5 happiness, and call it a day.

In my experience, there are only three Wonders in the game that will make-or-break it regardless of victory condition (as opposed to Sistine Chapel, which is basically essential for one victory condition, but won't help you unless you play to a fairly specific strategy): Petra, the Hanging Gardens, and the Temple of Artemis (the latter two in combination pretty much = game won unless something gets in the way, like an invasion of that city. I played an OCC culture game with all three Wonders in Palenque yesterday; my first BNW Immortal win).

In all these cases, the reason they're so critical is that they set you up for grabbing other things you need, including other Wonders whose effects are on the face of it more powerful; this is why the early Wonders are really the strongest. Petra is of course amazing, but there's no point having all those extra-productive tiles without the food to quickly grow a population that can work them quickly. I made the case in the G&K Wonder Elimination thread that the Hanging Gardens is the best Wonder in the game, and still consider that that's the case - in G&K I don't recall it coming with a built-in National Epic (i.e. maintenance-free Garden), not only earlier than you'd otherwise get a Garden but with the built-in food boost needed to populate the guilds so you can make use of it.

A lot of people think of it as just a food trade route substitute, but that's no more true than that Statue of Liberty is a factory substitute just because it provides the same resource in much the same quantity. It's additive with food trade, or depending on strategy can be used to use that trade route to earn money that can buy universities etc. earlier - and you need quite a specific, resource-intensive set-up to have two coastal cities, granaries in both, a cargo ship and a spare trade route by the time you would normally build HG (plus a National Epic, of course, to make sure the comparison factors in everything the Wonder produces). Petra can, usually quite late, get you 20+ production a turn in a city. Statue of Liberty gets you much the same much later. With a production city with as few as three mined hills, Hanging Gardens can be giving you 9 production a turn before you even hit Currency and start building Petra (how are you building it? With +9 production a turn...).

Food is the most important resource in the game, and the most flexible (food always = science, but depending on how you allocate citizens can also equal production, city growth, gold, and/or science or culture specialists); the food Wonders are indisputably the best there are, even if they don't look exciting enough to win polls like this.

For the other two of my top 5 Wonders? The two still in the poll here. I'd rank the top five along the lines:

1. Hanging Gardens
2. Petra
3. Temple of Artemis
4. Leaning Tower of Pisa
5. Sistine Chapel

Angkor Wat
Pentagon
CN Tower
Terracotta Army
Parthenon
Cristo Redentor
Red Fort
Taj Mahal
Statue of Zeus
Kremlin
Great Firewall
Great Wall
Great Mosque of Djenne
Himeji Castle
Great Lighthouse
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus
Pyramids
Brandenburg Gate
Great Library
Hagia Sophia
Sydney Opera House
Alhambra
Globe Theater
Big Ben
Borobudur
Prora
Broadway
Uffizi
Louvre
Porcelain Tower
Forbidden Palace
Hanging Gardens
Temple of Artemis
Stonehenge
Notre Dame
Colossus
Chichen Itza
Machu Picchu
Petra
Neuschwanstein
Hubble Space Telescope
Statue of Liberty
Eiffel Tower
Sistine Chapel
Leaning Tower of Pisa

Past the first few departures this is really quite a bizarre list, isn't it? I really don't get the love for Chichen Itza - I've had the experience others who downvoted it mentioned; I build it rarely, but when I do there seems to be little correlation between it and my overall success. Shame to see Great Mosque so low - it is weaker relatively speaking than it was in G&K since Borobudur does much the same thing, and with a Hagia Sophia's-worth of free faith-spreaders to boot, but in absolute terms it was better than Hagia Sophia in G&K and it's better than Hagia Sophia now, purely for the ongoing output from GM + free Mosque - certainly it shouldn't be so far behind it in the poll.
 
In my experience, there are only three Wonders in the game that will make-or-break it regardless of victory condition (as opposed to Sistine Chapel, which is basically essential for one victory condition, but won't help you unless you play to a fairly specific strategy): Petra, the Hanging Gardens, and the Temple of Artemis (the latter two in combination pretty much = game won unless something gets in the way, like an invasion of that city. I played an OCC culture game with all three Wonders in Palenque yesterday; my first BNW Immortal win).

In all these cases, the reason they're so critical is that they set you up for grabbing other things you need, including other Wonders whose effects are on the face of it more powerful; this is why the early Wonders are really the strongest. Petra is of course amazing, but there's no point having all those extra-productive tiles without the food to quickly grow a population that can work them quickly. I made the case in the G&K Wonder Elimination thread that the Hanging Gardens is the best Wonder in the game, and still consider that that's the case - in G&K I don't recall it coming with a built-in National Epic (i.e. maintenance-free Garden), not only earlier than you'd otherwise get a Garden but with the built-in food boost needed to populate the guilds so you can make use of it.

A lot of people think of it as just a food trade route substitute, but that's no more true than that Statue of Liberty is a factory substitute just because it provides the same resource in much the same quantity. It's additive with food trade, or depending on strategy can be used to use that trade route to earn money that can buy universities etc. earlier - and you need quite a specific, resource-intensive set-up to have two coastal cities, granaries in both, a cargo ship and a spare trade route by the time you would normally build HG (plus a National Epic, of course, to make sure the comparison factors in everything the Wonder produces). Petra can, usually quite late, get you 20+ production a turn in a city. Statue of Liberty gets you much the same much later. With a production city with as few as three mined hills, Hanging Gardens can be giving you 9 production a turn before you even hit Currency and start building Petra (how are you building it? With +9 production a turn...).

Food is the most important resource in the game, and the most flexible (food always = science, but depending on how you allocate citizens can also equal production, city growth, gold, and/or science or culture specialists); the food Wonders are indisputably the best there are, even if they don't look exciting enough to win polls like this.

For the other two of my top 5 Wonders? The two still in the poll here. I'd rank the top five along the lines:

1. Hanging Gardens
2. Petra
3. Temple of Artemis
4. Leaning Tower of Pisa
5. Sistine Chapel

Pretty solid logic there. You're right about the timing of something being crucial to how useful it is. I saw that a lot in this thread and it broke my heart a couple times. The arguments of Trade Route ~= Hanging Gardens is a bit of a flawed one, isn't it? Having to get the second city complete with Granary and then keeping the ship / caravan going is a really good point that a lot of people missed here.

Those early Food wonders really do snowball, I suppose. More food becomes more citizens, which is more science, production, gold, etc, which is a victory.

Past the first few departures this is really quite a bizarre list, isn't it? I really don't get the love for Chichen Itza - I've had the experience others who downvoted it mentioned; I build it rarely, but when I do there seems to be little correlation between it and my overall success. Shame to see Great Mosque so low - it is weaker relatively speaking than it was in G&K since Borobudur does much the same thing, and with a Hagia Sophia's-worth of free faith-spreaders to boot, but in absolute terms it was better than Hagia Sophia in G&K and it's better than Hagia Sophia now, purely for the ongoing output from GM + free Mosque - certainly it shouldn't be so far behind it in the poll.

It's hard to put your finger precisely on what the extra-long Golden Ages are doing for you, but it must be something good, right? I can sort of get that it's good for very tall, super-happy empires that can get a lot of Golden Ages, but it's really not that fantastic over all.

The Great Mosque is kind of situational in my books, although I do think it got killed off a bit before its time. The combination of it with a Great Prophet, allowing the GP to get a spread in before becoming a Holy Site is kind of neat. A lot of the religious wonders got oddly mistreated, as though they're not well understood.

I was a bit surprised by the scorn heaped on all the Wonders that work best for Wide play. I guess a lot of people here stick to very very tall games and never expand all that much. CN Tower disappeared quite early, and in a similar vein I guess the bottom 5 are as much of a shock to me as anything else.

If I had to do my bottom 5, I'd go with something like Terracotta Army, Himeji Castle, Red Fort, Angkor Wat, and Statue of Zeus. None of those finished very high, but that CN went out before Himeji kind of shocked me. How would you rank your bottom five?
 
I made the case in the G&K Wonder Elimination thread that the Hanging Gardens is the best Wonder in the game, and still consider that that's the case - in G&K I don't recall it coming with a built-in National Epic (i.e. maintenance-free Garden), not only earlier than you'd otherwise get a Garden but with the built-in food boost needed to populate the guilds so you can make use of it.

Yes, free garden was in G&K - which is where HG went from 10 food to 6. Like you, I don't consider the arguments that an extra trade route is just as much/more a food bonus to be valid. Quite simply, food trade routes are a priority, so I will have the same number with or without an extra slot from Colossus. Extra slots go to external TRs. Only HG and ToA are a true food bonus: more than I can get without them. And all three of these are on a good tech path.

It's fitting that you also listed ToA and Petra, because that is where the early garden power really comes into play, modifying the GE points from those two wonders (if you can get both or just one with HG) so you can pop a Great Engineer before your scientists take over, if you want. Therefor granting the same "free" GE for a bonus-wonder as Leaning Tower.

Reading back over the early votes, what surprises me is the dislike for Mausoleum. Even with just two quarries, 4 gpt plus ~4000 for great ppl for 185 hammers (probably 161 with marble boost) is nice. Also if I'm only aiming for 3 cities then Mausoleum can usually fit in between teching Masonry (for the wonder production bonus) and teching another wonder like HG, without disrupting my growth, even on Immortal.
 
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