G-Major LIV

Great job V. A question, I see you planted a second city, what policy order did you use? I am going worker, Republic, right side and leaving the free settler as my last liberty policy. Do you find the second city useful? When do you plant it?
I went for the free settler first, then worker, golden age and finished with the happiness policy. I planted my second city on horses as soon as I could for quick chariots, and set the citizen to work a hill tile. Pretty much only used that city to build scouts (and a monument) while the capital was kicking out ranged units.
 
2. I actually didn't get a pantheon until I founded the Sinai city (I think this was around turn 20). I found Jerusalem fast but missed Kathmandu, and by the time I got there it had already been met and the first pantheon had been founded, so I only had 12 faith and needed 15. I did manage to get friendly with both CSes early, so they definitely had an impact, but I didn't get the full free pantheon.

Wow, maybe sub-100 SS is possible if you can meet 2 religious CSes to get that pantheon up really fast. I'd have thought you got your pantheon around turn 10, give or take a few (which is possible if you spawn near a nest of CSes.)

3. I did full Piety, no Liberty. Going all the way to Collective Rule definitely isn't necessary. The 2-in-Liberty build has potential but you probably need to have multiple Cultural allies and/or build the Oracle. I think it's worth experimenting with. Hammers were a relatively low priority for me in city locations and many of my cities only had 1-2 hammers, so the extra hammer from Republic is pretty huge.

Yes, after messing around with Liberty starts, I completely agree. In this one, full Piety seems the way to go, if you're going SS.


This means that you can found some cities very late and still have time for them to pick up the religion to buy buildings. It's nice to get the cities down for faith generation, but settling later makes policy costs lower and thus allows for faster Reformation. It's an interesting balancing act.

Yes, the balancing acts of various strategies are always interesting and game-situation dependent. Keeps the game fresh and replayable! You balanced things very well obviously. Thanks for the insights.
 
I see a lot of people going desert folklore, wouldn't religious idols be better in most games since you will want to work a hill tile with as much gold, faith and production you can either way?

That way you become less dependent on culture from CSs. I find that with Arabian start bias you will almost always have plenty of sites for pop 1 cities only working a gold or silver
 
I see a lot of people going desert folklore, wouldn't religious idols be better in most games since you will want to work a hill tile with as much gold, faith and production you can either way?

That way you become less dependent on culture from CSs. I find that with Arabian start bias you will almost always have plenty of sites for pop 1 cities only working a gold or silver

I think you are absolutely right in this gauntlet, assuming you have multiple gold and silver sources in your area-- If you're going to only go with low population cities to place your Sacred Sites, you won't get the volume of faith that you would normally get with Desert Folklore. That extra culture is valuable in this setup.

----

A couple of random observations from the couple non-SS games I've tried:

I don't know if it's an aberration, but Harald Bluetooth seems to love the Great Plains map in my 2 efforts. He exploded out to 3 cities immediately in both games, and had the largest army so my own forces could not shake down the other AIs. Throw in the fact that he was in the center of the map and pledging protection to some CSes seemingly, and he put the crimp in my war effort for sure! Haven't seen Harald on the warpath like that in games not involving possible berserker amphibious assaults. Needless to say, he won't be on my opponent list when I try again. :)

When pursuing the Greek Liberation strategy, it is helpful to take out your first AI civ well before it reaches the 90's in culture if possible. If you don't, and if Athens is in the deep woods or partly surrounded by mountains, you have to waste a LOT of turns softening him up earlier in the game taking out his units, or else your efforts will be for naught! The liberated AI capital sitting on 95 culture only needs a couple turns to outculture your Great Musician, so Athens needs to fall quickly. If you waste a lot of turns softening Alex up earlier, you might as well have built Sacred Sites much faster; at least that was my experience... :undecide:
 
I just can't conquer fast enough so I keep retrying and is hard to get a decent start, I haven't found any faith CS in 5 tries... talk about bad luck, I'm being forced to build or buy a shrine later before I lose the desert pantheon.

And a silly question, how do you create the first tourism output so early to get the culture victory ? I don't get it
 
I just can't conquer fast enough so I keep retrying and is hard to get a decent start, I haven't found any faith CS in 5 tries... talk about bad luck, I'm being forced to build or buy a shrine later before I lose the desert pantheon.

And a silly question, how do you create the first tourism output so early to get the culture victory ? I don't get it

Hi,

hard to tell what strategy you're attempting, as generating faith and conquering don't need to go hand in hand; I'll give a quick rundown on the methods to Culture Victory just to try to cover all the bases and answer your question:

1) The "Standard" Way

How to Generate Tourism: Build culture-producing buildings (amphitheater, opera house, museum etc.) and wonders (Parthenon, Sistine Chapel, etc.) and then fill them with Great Works you create with Great Artists, Writers, and Musicians, and also with artifacts you dig up with archaeologists. These Great Works generate your tourism. Later buildings like airports and hotels also significantly boost tourism.

Conquest?: Not necessary, and often detracts from your tourism creation; however, each AI civ you wipe out makes it easier to win by having one less civ to be influential over. Can't conquer them all though, as that is a domination victory :).

2) Build Sacred Sites

How to Generate Tourism: Get a religion and choose the beliefs that let you build sacred buildings with faith (Mosques, Pagodas, and/or Monasteries). Then go down the Piety Social Policy Tree until you get Reformation. Choose the Sacred Sites reformation belief and you will generate 2 Tourism per faith building.

Conquest?: Same as above-- Not necessary, and often detracts from your Sacred Site creation; however, each AI civ you conquer, makes it easier to win.

3) Using Liberty and AI Liberation

(100% credit goes to Vadalaz for figuring out this possibility!)

How to Generate Tourism: You generate tourism generally in one way at one time-- Have a Great Musician do a Concert Tour in a civ that has less than 100 culture, when no other AI civs are remaining in the game.

Conquest?: Here is the process: Conquer an AI civ before it gets to 100 culture; Then wipe out all the other civs but one; Then gift the sub-100-culture capital to the last remaining Civ. Hopefully that civ will liberate the sub-100 culture AI civ and bring it back into the game. You then quickly destroy the liberator civ before the sub-100 culture civ gets over 100 culture. You have a Great Musician (obtained as reward for completing the Liberty SP tree) do a Concert Tour in the sub-100 culture civ. The tour creates a default value 100 Tourism Points even though you are generating no tourism. If that civ is still under 100 Culture and is the only AI civ left in the game, you win!

I usually call this the Greek Liberation strategy as Greece is one civ that will reliably liberate a capital gifted to it more often than not. Gifting other civs that sub-100 culture capital often will not get the city liberated and thus the strategy is moot.

---

That's it, in a nutshell. Hope it answers your questions.
 
I think you are absolutely right in this gauntlet, assuming you have multiple gold and silver sources in your area-- If you're going to only go with low population cities to place your Sacred Sites, you won't get the volume of faith that you would normally get with Desert Folklore. That extra culture is valuable in this setup.


I had one solid game with Religious Idols pantheon. I quit before the end because it was going to be slower than my best time, but it looked like a ~t115 finish. So you can get good results with it, but I think that Desert Folklore is a must if you want to break records. The potential faith volume is just so high.


I just can't conquer fast enough so I keep retrying and is hard to get a decent start, I haven't found any faith CS in 5 tries... talk about bad luck, I'm being forced to build or buy a shrine later before I lose the desert pantheon.

On this map/difficulty level, you should typically be getting your pantheon from ruins. Faith CS are awesome but getting the free pantheon from them can't be counted on. Faith ruins start to show up at turn 20. You should be able to get enough ruins to find one of these 100% of the time. I try to get 3 Scouts fast and really get out there, and I build more Scouts if some of my starting ones hit upgrade ruins (Archers have better things to do than wander around). Make sure to be really thorough about exploring the eastern forest -- there are tons of ruins out there and the AI never finds them.
 
Hi,

hard to tell what strategy you're attempting, as generating faith and conquering don't need to go hand in hand; I'll give a quick rundown on the methods to Culture Victory just to try to cover all the bases and answer your question:

1) The "Standard" Way

How to Generate Tourism: Build culture-producing buildings (amphitheater, opera house, museum etc.) and wonders (Parthenon, Sistine Chapel, etc.) and then fill them with Great Works you create with Great Artists, Writers, and Musicians, and also with artifacts you dig up with archaeologists. These Great Works generate your tourism. Later buildings like airports and hotels also significantly boost tourism.

Conquest?: Not necessary, and often detracts from your tourism creation; however, each AI civ you wipe out makes it easier to win by having one less civ to be influential over. Can't conquer them all though, as that is a domination victory :).

2) Build Sacred Sites

How to Generate Tourism: Get a religion and choose the beliefs that let you build sacred buildings with faith (Mosques, Pagodas, and/or Monasteries). Then go down the Piety Social Policy Tree until you get Reformation. Choose the Sacred Sites reformation belief and you will generate 2 Tourism per faith building.

Conquest?: Same as above-- Not necessary, and often detracts from your Sacred Site creation; however, each AI civ you conquer, makes it easier to win.

3) Using Liberty and AI Liberation

(100% credit goes to Vadalaz for figuring out this possibility!)

How to Generate Tourism: You generate tourism generally in one way at one time-- Have a Great Musician do a Concert Tour in a civ that has less than 100 culture, when no other AI civs are remaining in the game.

Conquest?: Here is the process: Conquer an AI civ before it gets to 100 culture; Then wipe out all the other civs but one; Then gift the sub-100-culture capital to the last remaining Civ. Hopefully that civ will liberate the sub-100 culture AI civ and bring it back into the game. You then quickly destroy the liberator civ before the sub-100 culture civ gets over 100 culture. You have a Great Musician (obtained as reward for completing the Liberty SP tree) do a Concert Tour in the sub-100 culture civ. The tour creates a default value 100 Tourism Points even though you are generating no tourism. If that civ is still under 100 Culture and is the only AI civ left in the game, you win!

I usually call this the Greek Liberation strategy as Greece is one civ that will reliably liberate a capital gifted to it more often than not. Gifting other civs that sub-100 culture capital often will not get the city liberated and thus the strategy is moot.

---

That's it, in a nutshell. Hope it answers your questions.

I really appreciate this.

Thank you! Thank you very much.
 
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