SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Yamps
Deity
Not really...
Maybe there is a source of many free workers nearby?
Getting MC very early is really powerful because of all the whipping we must do in the capital. And gems for +1 :happiness: only help the case, IMO.
We don't need to achieve all the possible objectives, as I have understood, but only one to win the heart.
I'd rather Oracle Monarchy if we went Oracle at all since capital 2E could really whip hard 6-->3. And also should if we go for early wonder, we need to catch up on production. Whipping non-stop.
If we were to make only 4 purchases (to know where they are and to know 1 heart info for each), it would cost us 7 workers. If there is a worker source nearby, I'd still expect it would be better to keep the workers and to pay with GM trade route gold. We should also assume that we'll likely have to pay for more information than the bare minimum.
While I agree that we'll want to whip a lot, MC for forges is only +1 happy for now from visible gems so it's not worth it only for that.
Just to put the idea on the table, maybe some team tries bulbing Math to help the Oracle -> Currency plan. While I dislike wasting a GS for that, could it still make sense to get early Currency? For now, I'd think that getting a GM for cash is more important. Of course, we'll be smarter when we look around more.
Yamps
Deity
Checking in.
Welcome back, friends and new friends.
Yamps introduced me into SGOTM10, we'll have real cooperation this time.
Yes, it's been years since you've joined for your first SGOTM.
Like I said in the PM, my mind was not on civ playing at all at this time, but this was too tempting to miss your invitation. Happy to play with you guys for some more civ fun! 
This time I'm undecided about the big direction because of those hidden requirements.
The only thing that I'm sure is that Astronomy and Engineering would be the key techs, hence the opening might be played similarly as SGOTM14 and 17.
Depends on the hidden requirements or more clearly, how far we need to go through the tech tree, there's 2 ways:
1. Gambling, which could the optimal or the worst. If techs like Fascism or Mass Media is not required to win the game, then we could aggressively bulb to Astronomy as SGOTM14 (likely 6 or 7 GPs), which then left no potential of GP production afterward. Moreover we are going to skip academy and CS, which also hurt the research ability afterward. GLH is not a wonder to be considered in this way, but Oracling Currency is critical.
2. Flexible approach. We still want to bulb to Astronomy, but with limited GSs (4~5GPs). Bulbing Math and then Oracling Currency could be considered, but less attractive. GLH is a wonder to be considered in this approach. Obvious, we will be much slower in learning Astronomy, probably 10 turns.
The only thing that I'm sure is that Astronomy and Engineering would be the key techs, hence the opening might be played similarly as SGOTM14 and 17.
Depends on the hidden requirements or more clearly, how far we need to go through the tech tree, there's 2 ways:
1. Gambling, which could the optimal or the worst. If techs like Fascism or Mass Media is not required to win the game, then we could aggressively bulb to Astronomy as SGOTM14 (likely 6 or 7 GPs), which then left no potential of GP production afterward. Moreover we are going to skip academy and CS, which also hurt the research ability afterward. GLH is not a wonder to be considered in this way, but Oracling Currency is critical.
2. Flexible approach. We still want to bulb to Astronomy, but with limited GSs (4~5GPs). Bulbing Math and then Oracling Currency could be considered, but less attractive. GLH is a wonder to be considered in this approach. Obvious, we will be much slower in learning Astronomy, probably 10 turns.
Personally, I don't think having 'general directions' is worth it. 2 Caravels at Optics should be able do this fairly well.
Buying the hints early is 100% not the right strategy, even if there's a source of free workers. The scenario looks like a beaker race together with good empire management to allow flexibility. Even if you knew beforehand the 3 easy solutions, they are likely adding a significant detour to Astronomy and slowing development.
Buying the hints early is 100% not the right strategy, even if there's a source of free workers. The scenario looks like a beaker race together with good empire management to allow flexibility. Even if you knew beforehand the 3 easy solutions, they are likely adding a significant detour to Astronomy and slowing development.
The possible requirements to earn hearts
Diplomatic relation
Spreading her favorite religions
Eliminate her enemy
...
Last always available thing, a spaceship.
In almost all the requirements that I have guessed, Astronomy and Engineering are the key techs. Therefore, getting Astronomy early is likely to be the key for winning. However, if her enemy needs paratroops to reach, then it becomes a beaker race.
Diplomatic relation
Spreading her favorite religions
Eliminate her enemy
...
Last always available thing, a spaceship.
In almost all the requirements that I have guessed, Astronomy and Engineering are the key techs. Therefore, getting Astronomy early is likely to be the key for winning. However, if her enemy needs paratroops to reach, then it becomes a beaker race.
Some teams are speculating about the map type. I now realized that my description of a custom-made continents map turned into "custom continents" during the process of preparing the announcement thread. So to make it clear: I always design the maps from scratch and just afterwards I give a suggestion what it might be similar to. And I said "treat it like a continents map". This became "custom continents" somehow without me noticing this detail. Not sure if/how this will effect your plans, but I wanted to make sure you don't work with a false premise. I will post this in each team thread.
Reporting in...
Spoiler start :
I should read up on the various game threads, I don't even know what we're supposed to do in this game.
Before contemplating moves, maybe we should decide where to settle? SIP food is rather bad.
Kaitzilla checking in!
The first city is interesting to consider.
Our 1st border pop is (Settle + 3 turns) and our 2nd border pop is (Settle + 25 turns)
We start with presumably only Fishing and Hunting.
Agriculture is 9 or 10 turns to research.
What shall our 1st worker do?
All three gems are covered in forest.
I can't really see how our capital could leave out the riverside wheat.
+100% Great People Points and half price Libraries and Universities
Nothing jumps to mind except Elisabeth, Isabella, Catherine, and Willem will be in our game.
And if Willem is selling directions to the 3 women, he is probably much closer to us than they are.
The rules are also fun to ponder.
Spoiler :
Maybe 6 purchases with gold and 4 purchases with workers is optimal if 1
is said to equal 1
?Early Astronomy is likely to be key ya.
A shame we got Fishing which messes up bulbing Engineering.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952
Spoiler :
Who can say if earning hearts will be so easy?
Mobey Dick: Kill the menacing Stealth Destroyer!
Gift 3 Great People, none the same.
10,000 gold!
Or perhaps a city with 20 population, gifted to yon lady.
Build 30 forest preserves to show her you care about the environment.
Conquer that barb city with the machine guns to win her heart!
Or perhaps combinations of smaller things?
We've got 4 months to figure it out.
Thanks for the heads up BSPollux
Oh, I forgot about that!
Yes, this could be a huge edge if pulled off properly.
Ghpstage really did some amazing research on this, but getting precise numbers involves a fair amount of math along with keeping track of beg amounts and gold trades.
Imagine, 1000
gifted to Willem and retrieved the following turn in a tech trade during his long Anarchy. 
(Since we can't ever beg Willem. Nor can we trade techs the same turn we buy information from him)
I'm not sure there is any way to keep him from spending it during that 1 turn though.
Maybe make sure he is the tech leader and doesn't have any troops to upgrade before doing the Deal of a Lifetime?
The Tachywaxon .gifs made me smile.
Getting AI to disband their army even a little is hilarious.
Yamps
Deity
Some questions and comments:
@Kossin
I agree it's not best to buy all information at the first opportunity. One option would be to emphasis exploring to find out which of the ladies is easily accessible. Then it might be good to know her first option when it's easy and before we make it obsolete by chance.
@Duckweed
What's the reasoning behind Oracle -> Currency being critical? Currency is always a good tech, but if we don't have to buy our information so soon then we could delay it and research it manually.
Let's also discuss how do we intend to win after we get the 3 hearts. With vassals off, what would the fastest way be? AP is a strong candidate option so that also means that Oracle -> CoL has merit. It would secure us a minority religion and get us Caste for GP farming. It's also much easier to do than Oracle -> Currency while the cost difference isn't that big.
There's also one more issue I'd like to discuss:
Why do we have that worker? Is it because supposedly some teams need help at Immortal (which is definitely not true IMO) or is it because the game is likely to have a faster pace than on regular Immortal due to altered AI starts?
@Kaitzilla
I second shakabrade's suggestion of moving the worker 2S to check for more sea food before we decide on settling. Like he said, if nothing there, then let's settle 2E. After that, work boat first while researching Agriculture is the most obvious option.
@Kossin
I agree it's not best to buy all information at the first opportunity. One option would be to emphasis exploring to find out which of the ladies is easily accessible. Then it might be good to know her first option when it's easy and before we make it obsolete by chance.
@Duckweed
What's the reasoning behind Oracle -> Currency being critical? Currency is always a good tech, but if we don't have to buy our information so soon then we could delay it and research it manually.
Let's also discuss how do we intend to win after we get the 3 hearts. With vassals off, what would the fastest way be? AP is a strong candidate option so that also means that Oracle -> CoL has merit. It would secure us a minority religion and get us Caste for GP farming. It's also much easier to do than Oracle -> Currency while the cost difference isn't that big.
There's also one more issue I'd like to discuss:
Why do we have that worker? Is it because supposedly some teams need help at Immortal (which is definitely not true IMO) or is it because the game is likely to have a faster pace than on regular Immortal due to altered AI starts?
@Kaitzilla
I second shakabrade's suggestion of moving the worker 2S to check for more sea food before we decide on settling. Like he said, if nothing there, then let's settle 2E. After that, work boat first while researching Agriculture is the most obvious option.
Yamps
Deity
Oh, I forgot about that!
Yes, this could be a huge edge if pulled off properly.
Ghpstage really did some amazing research on this, but getting precise numbers involves a fair amount of math along with keeping track of beg amounts and gold trades.
Imagine, 1000
(Since we can't ever beg Willem. Nor can we trade techs the same turn we buy information from him)
I'm not sure there is any way to keep him from spending it during that 1 turn though.
Maybe make sure he is the tech leader and doesn't have any troops to upgrade before doing the Deal of a Lifetime?
The Tachywaxon .gifs made me smile.
Getting AI to disband their army even a little is hilarious.
Hmm, there's also a cost to put Will in anarchy. If we were to use spies, we'd have to have at least one spy (40 hammers) and enough espionage points. There's also the potential opportunity cost if we wait for bulk information purchase. Good to have in mind as an option, but we'll see.
Currency is not absolutely required in the way to Astronomy, but it still speeds up the process. We only need to buy 3 requirements to decide how the game might be wrapped. Therefore, the earlier we know the requirements, the sooner we could revised our plan to the right path. If you have time you could read the opening of our SGOTM14, which is the optimal opening in all our SGOTMs. We actually Oracled CoL in that game. However, our original plan was Currency. CoL was for religion and mainly for fast culture border pop, where we don't need it in this game.
The more I think, the more I feel that we should go for the 1st way.
As the description said, the worker helps for faster opening.
Regarding Continents...
That's good enough for me. For the rest, the map could be anything but there should be at least 2 continents... good enough for GLH+Astronomy.
There's probably a way to tell how far WvO is using Espionage after some turns.
@Yamps
Spies do not cause Anarchy; Willem could be converted with techs. If you meant to steal back the gold, then we would need Willem to be reduced to a single city.
This is easily achievable with a trap city and some warring
.
Cost: 3 base
*discount = 1
~~~
I could be wrong, but with those 3 gems lying around, I don't think we have to adopt a crazy bulb strategy to get a good Astronomy date. For instance, replacing 2 GS bulbs by 1 GM trade mission is likely better to cut down on low slider issues we had a tendency to get in the past. Fail gold is also important if possible. Sure we lose a few turns but also a lot of flexibility.
An early Mathematics is good though
Regarding the gems, I'm wondering where we should fit in Bronze Working. The important techs to get early:
*Mining > Bronze Working
*Agriculture
*Pottery
*Writing
That's good enough for me. For the rest, the map could be anything but there should be at least 2 continents... good enough for GLH+Astronomy.
There's probably a way to tell how far WvO is using Espionage after some turns.
@Yamps
Spies do not cause Anarchy; Willem could be converted with techs. If you meant to steal back the gold, then we would need Willem to be reduced to a single city.
This is easily achievable with a trap city and some warring
.Cost: 3 base
*discount = 1~~~
I could be wrong, but with those 3 gems lying around, I don't think we have to adopt a crazy bulb strategy to get a good Astronomy date. For instance, replacing 2 GS bulbs by 1 GM trade mission is likely better to cut down on low slider issues we had a tendency to get in the past. Fail gold is also important if possible. Sure we lose a few turns but also a lot of flexibility.
An early Mathematics is good though
Regarding the gems, I'm wondering where we should fit in Bronze Working. The important techs to get early:
*Mining > Bronze Working
*Agriculture
*Pottery
*Writing
Yamps
Deity
@Yamps
Spies do not cause Anarchy; Willem could be converted with techs. If you meant to steal back the gold, then we would need Willem to be reduced to a single city.
This is easily achievable with a trap city and some warring
No, I forgot that civic switches by espionage don't cause anarchy.
I didn't think you meant techs because it's not clear that he'd have possible options for civic/religion conversion when we want it.Btw, if we play it his way, how would that work in respect to this rule:
We'd have to bribe him to cause a civic switch and then ask for information on the next turn. AI teams play after the human team, so when we get to the next turn, would he still be in anarchy since he hadn't played yet? In that case, we'd not have to bribe him for two turns of anarchy.
Regarding the war, it's a good point to take advantage on him. We just have to make sure to have at least +1 when we want our information.
@team
The save is up.
Are we going to make some tests immediately or are we moving the worker to the deer tile to have a look before we get to that?
Yamps
Deity
I agree we should get Currency rather early, but I'm not sure about using the Oracle for that. Would we have to bulb Math? Also, maybe we could get the GLH and use Oracle for something more easily accessible than Currency, i.e. CoL.
No, I forgot that civic switches by espionage don't cause anarchy.
Btw, if we play it his way, how would that work in respect to this rule:
Turn (X)
Buy information
Turn (X+1)
(Cause Anarchy)
Buy back gold
I'm guessing it's safer to wait the turn to cause the Anarchy so that other AIs don't trade for his gold.
~~~
I'm unavailable to even launch the game for several days. I will try to comment here and there. gogogo team!
Checking in, albeit a little late.
Initial thoughts:
Initial thoughts:
- The tile 3S1W of our Settler has no reason to provide 2
. Hence, this is either adjacent to another island or is a leftover edit/mapmaker mistake.
- We should scout 2S with the Worker to clarify the above.
- With our current map info, I'd favor settling 2E of the current location. Pericles' Creative trait means relatively swift access to the Deer. This coastal location is also very strong, since a Galley and two Workboats can be built and access the island almost immediately. This will be our 4th or 5th city, I think, and I can see OF from a Settler build being used to build our early navy.
- I prefer to have the capital fuel early expansion, hence the Gems can be left for later cities. In any case, the timing of TW + Mining + BW needs to be carefully considered, especially if we are also targeting early wonders.
- I'm not sure about a grand plan right now. However, I do think we should anticipate the need to spend ~2000 (+/– a Worker or two) to buy all 9 hints, since there are 3 possible victory conditions for each leader, and the third hint may provide an easier victory route.
- Currency is a low priority Oracle target if we intend to build the GLH.
I know that bulbing Math is a big waste of a GS, however, with Phi trait, we are able to produce enough GSs. The difference of Oracle from GLH was already proven in SGOTM14 by PD and OSS, around 10 turns to learn Astro+Eng.
The reason why I favors aggressively bulb more now is that the disadvantages could be largely corrected by knowing the tasks earlier.
[*]I'm not sure about a grand plan right now. However, I do think we should anticipate the need to spend ~2000
The map makers' judgement won't be dramatically wrong, so usually the #1 number tasks are likely all we need to know.
Not really, having Math helps GLH as well. Again, Whether GLH is useful in this game mainly depends on how far we need to go through the tech tree.
