SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Kaitzilla · Jan 11, 2015

Duckweed said:
We don't need to upload so often, especially in the opening. If nothing special, you could upload when you are ready to hand over.

Ok, I can hold onto the save then and just post a screenshot instead.
When I play I like to inch forward with consensus rather than boldly forge ahead.

Worker 2 south and post screenshot ok with you?

Duckweed said:
We can't steal the worker, so there's no urgency of locating William. The major task of the scout is purely scouting along the coast, either westbound or northbound is fine.

That makes sense.
No urgency because it is just a Scout.

Duckweed · Jan 11, 2015

shakabrade said:
I never considered it a critical wonder. This isn't supposed to be an Archipelago map. The earlier the GLH, the more opportunity cost from delayed great people, which is the main opportunity cost when going for early Astro. I don't want super-safe 2000BC GLH. Although, GLH adds 2GPP, which is actually on track with our goals but we can keep ignoring that cause we probably don't want our capital to outrun other cities with GPP.

If we can get it later, as I mentioned around 1000BC when we have other cities to produce settlers and workers, that is still losing couple of turns from Astro, but is adding a lot in case of a long game. So, Duckweed, 50% or 15%, that's what defines the date of our GLH. If its merit is comparable to early Astro only at 500BC, then we have probably lost it and don't need to try and go for it. If it is 1000BC, we can make an attempt.

1000BC is not a safe date for GLH in immortal. T60~T65 might be. I'm fine to give it a try if we don't delay the necessary setup of GP farms and Oracling Currency. However, I doubt that we could do it.

Duckweed · Jan 11, 2015

Kaitzilla said:
Ok, I can hold onto the save then and just post a screenshot instead.
When I play I like to inch forward with consensus rather than boldly forge ahead.

Worker 2 south and post screenshot ok with you?

No problem, we like screenshots and many lurkers too.

We did much less of micro adjustments in SGOTM19. Mostly we just focused on the big directions and micros largely relied on the active player. Usually a PPP contains a save plus some screenshots to emphasize the key achievements.

Kaitzilla · Jan 11, 2015

Ok, nothing found.

Real Game, Turn 0

Time to decide where to settle our Capital, 1st tech choice, and direction of scout.

I like city 2E, Agriculture, and exploring north up the coastline.
Our 1st Warrior can scout west of the cows using hills.

shakabrade · Jan 11, 2015

Kaitzilla said:
Ok, I can hold onto the save then and just post a screenshot instead.
When I play I like to inch forward with consensus rather than boldly forge ahead.

Worker 2 south and post screenshot ok with you?

If you think you have found something interesting, you can pause. Are barbs, on? If they, are, after T5 one-move scout.

I'd like to see T0, T3 and T5 demographics to see who is coastal.

Duckweed said:
1000BC is not a safe date for GLH in immortal. T60~T65 might be. I'm fine to give it a try if we don't delay the necessary setup of GP farms and Oracling Currency. However, I doubt that we could do it.

It is if AIs aren't coastal. Happens even on Deity.

Edit:

Kaitzilla, green light!

Duckweed · Jan 11, 2015

OK.......

Kaitzilla · Jan 11, 2015

Actually, the Scout moves need some more thought.
What if our 1st build is a Workboat and not a Warrior?

In that case, we might want to send scout to explore around cows, head north+northeast+east to explore the northwest + gems, then head north up the eastern coastline. :hmm:

Let me make a test game and test some stuff since we will probably be settling 2E.

You guys don't delay the 1st tech choice a few turns to earn +1 :science:

from rounding errors do you?
I never learned how to do it (game forces me to pick a tech 1st turn) and my last team (who know how to do it) had a bad experience with it. :cringe:

Duckweed · Jan 11, 2015

Yes, the 1st build should be a WB, still it does not matter which direction you prefer.

You could delaying the tech choice by leaving the tech choice unslected by clicking the tech again and leave it unchosen, you just have to do it every turn since the game force your to choose a tech every turn.

And we need to run some tests until the 3rd settler is ready since it's likely that our 2nd city would be the Cow/Crab/Gem site.

shakabrade · Jan 11, 2015

Kaitzilla said:
Actually, the Scout moves need some more thought.
What if our 1st build is a Workboat and not a Warrior?

In that case, we might want to send scout to explore around cows, head north+northeast+east to explore the gems, then head north up the eastern coastline.

Let me make a test game and test some stuff since we will probably be settling 2E.

You guys don't delay the 1st tech choice a few turns to earn +1 from rounding errors do you?
I never learned how to do it (game forces me to pick a tech 1st turn) and my last team (who know how to do it) had a bad experience with it.

I am for WB first. Since we can.

I delay it always to get the bonus from meeting people with the tech, or to delay a decision before I scout the land, which is actually the main reason.

You select the tech at the start of the turn and then you deselect it by clicking on a tech progress bar. Next turn, again. On T5 you select your tech and that's your choice.
I usually don't make tech decisions prior to T5 at all.

Edit: xpost with Duckweed

Me and Yamps prefer North to see the food status of those gems, so it matters for us.

Doshin · Jan 11, 2015

Kaitzilla said:
For some reason our Wheat appears that it will give us +6 like a Corn.

Grassland Wheat is a mapmaker edit. Usually Wheat is on a Plains.

Kaitzilla said:
You guys don't delay the 1st tech choice a few turns to earn +1 from rounding errors do you?
I never learned how to do it (game forces me to pick a tech 1st turn) and my last team (who know how to do it) had a bad experience with it.

The game will force you to pick a new tech at the beginning of each turn. Simply deselect this, and we can avoid committing until T5.

-----

In terms of scouting directions, either way is fine with me, but if one side of the map is strewn with Hills and Forests I would go to these first. On flatland, Scouts have 2-movement points, and can retreat if they encounter a Barbarian, when they start to appear. Only Panthers and bad luck (getting trapped by multiple barbs) will cause the Scout to die.

Screenshots are always appreciated. I think we are a picture heavy team, and I remember Kaitzilla that you were the main photographer for Kakumeika.

Yamps · Jan 11, 2015

Wow, I've been out for a couple of hours and you've sure been busy... :crazyeye:

Time for some catch up. :coffee:

Deckhand · Jan 11, 2015

shakabrade said:
I usually don't make tech decisions prior to T5 at all.

How much do you gain from rounding errors?
How much from meeting a civ?
How much do you lose from neglecting to select a tech on T5? (one turn's worth)

Yamps · Jan 11, 2015

Our first build should be a work boat and that one probably won't explore much since there are crabs to improve.

For scouting, it would be good to know if there's more food near those 2 northern gems for easier planing later on. That's why I agree with shakabrade about that. Other than that, I don't have a strong preference about exact directions.

@Duckweed regarding CoL vs Currency

It's largely a matter of timing. You're saying we could get enough GP in a given period of 100 turns or so, based on your past games. What's not clear to me is that maybe we could shorten that period with GM and a lower total number of great people if we don't have to burn the first GS.

There's also that issue of hiring 2GS for 17 turns in the early game instead of whipping or working production tiles. That's a development cost which has to be compared with earlier Math and Currency benefits. EDIT: okay, it's actually half as long with Philosophical. Still something to consider though, just to be sure.

I do agree we should get Math asap on our own, definitely before Alphabet. I also think you're right about delaying the GLH or not building it at all.

shakabrade · Jan 11, 2015

Deckhand said:
How much do you gain from rounding errors?
How much from meeting a civ?
How much do you lose from neglecting to select a tech on T5? (one turn's worth)

One in four games I'd say that I get the tech one turn sooner because of research bonus applied to the sum of beakers in 5T. Don't know the numbers.

You lose nothing, I guess.
I get a basic idea what to do. Should I research Animal husbandry, or just mine that pigs hill, for instance. Two pig hills would make me go for AH. Only one in vicinity, probably not. If you have another food source, of course. It is used for stuff like that. Regarding research, I pay attention to do binary research and not lose to rounding for at least 50T. That can get you 3-4 tech one turn sooner and snowball bla bla.
That's is something I don't know that I am doing each turn, but I am. It is quite easy prior to multipliers. Multipliers mess up the maths and then I give up.

kossin · Jan 11, 2015

Deckhand said:
How much do you gain from rounding errors?
Most usually, nothing. Sometimes, a few beakers (when it works you typically get 1 extra).
How much from meeting a civ?
Standard number of AIs: 4% per AI having said technology
How much do you lose from neglecting to select a tech on T5? (one turn's worth)
5 turns' worth technically, because it gets dumped into the cheapest tech available (usually Hunting - generally not what you'd want to open with).

It's detailed in the War Academy somewhere.

Kaitzilla · Jan 11, 2015

Turn 0, Test Game
It should have TEST GAME signs all over the place.

I'll try to update the accuracy as time goes by.
I'd recommend only testing Worker+City+Unit Movement plans on it, else you will go crazy.
When the game gets too complicated, will probably stop using it.

Kaitzilla · Jan 11, 2015

Duckweed said:
You could delaying the tech choice by leaving the tech choice unslected by clicking the tech again and leave it unchosen, you just have to do it every turn since the game force your to choose a tech every turn.

shakabrade said:
You select the tech at the start of the turn and then you deselect it by clicking on a tech progress bar.

Doshin said:
The game will force you to pick a new tech at the beginning of each turn. Simply deselect this, and we can avoid committing until T5.

Ah, so that's how you do it.

Just got to pick your tech to research first, then click on the tech progress bar at the top of the screen and it unselects.

Thanks Shakabrade, Duckweed, and Doshin.
I never knew that. :goodjob:

I got to leave for the rest of the day, but I'll play 3 turns tomorrow morning if everyone likes settling 2E and sending the Scout north.
Test Game indicates that Workboat first flows pretty well with 3 :hammers:

Turn1-Turn3 and 27 :hammers:

Turn4-Turn12 working the Deer.

Doshin · Jan 11, 2015

The availability of Stone will also influence our planning, since with it the Pyramids become a feasible build and arguably more attractive than the GLH if we are bulbing heavily. For a Philosophical leader, the number of specialist turns required to generate a GP are as follows:

GP1: 17
GP2: 34
GP3: 50
GP4: 67
GP5: 84
GP6: 100
GP7: 117
GP8: 134

Assuming that the first GP is unaffected by the Mids (being used to bulb Mathematics) then the value of the Mids will be determined by GSs #2 and onwards, the final number being dependent upon the hidden objectives/overall trajectory of the game.

Beyond Maths, a minimum bulb path to Astronomy and Engineering would need 4GSs (Optics, Astronomy x2, Engineering) and .75GS for a GA (assuming this is generated in a wonder city, with 12GPPs per turn coming from specialists, and 4GPPs from the wonder).

4.75GPs: 310GP turns = 930B

The return here is not phenomenal (say Stone + OR = 930B / 223H = 4.17), but this will research Machinery and another tech for us. Since we will likely be the team dictating the tech path, we should be able to start warring 3–5 turns sooner, while also switching into Police State for cheaper warring. I would say this already outranks the GLH, which can then be captured.

The need for further GPs (e.g. one leader has three hidden objective necessitating Physics/Biology/Electricity) increases the Mids value:

5.75GPs: 423GP turns = 1269B
6.75GPs: 553GP turns = 1658B

And so on. The actual beakers will be a bit higher, assuming we have at least one Library in the capital (and maybe more, given Pericles' traits). In a game where we generate 8 great people in total, 1658B / 223H = 7.4, which is a good return.

Anyway, this is mostly speculative at the moment. Without Stone the value of the Mids plummets.

shakabrade · Jan 11, 2015

Doshin said:
The availability of Stone will also influence our planning, since with it the Pyramids become a feasible build and arguably more attractive than the GLH if we are bulbing heavily. For a Philosophical leader, the number of specialist turns required to generate a GP are as follows:

GP1: 17
GP2: 34
GP3: 50
GP4: 67
GP5: 84
GP6: 100
GP7: 117
GP8: 134
Assuming that the first GP is unaffected by the Mids (being used to bulb Mathematics) then the value of the Mids will be determined by GSs #2 and onwards, the final number being dependent upon the hidden objectives/overall trajectory of the game.

Beyond Maths, a minimum bulb path to Astronomy and Engineering would need 4GSs (Optics, Astronomy x2, Engineering) and .75GS for a GA (assuming this is generated in a wonder city, with 12GPPs per turn coming from specialists, and 4GPPs from the wonder).

4.75GPs: 310GP turns = 930B
The return here is not phenomenal (say Stone + OR = 930B / 223H = 4.17), but this will research Machinery and another tech for us. Since we will likely be the team dictating the tech path, we should be able to start warring 35 turns sooner, while also switching into Police State for cheaper warring. I would say this already outranks the GLH, which can then be captured.

The need for further GPs (e.g. one leader has three hidden objective necessitating Physics/Biology/Electricity) increases the Mids value:

5.75GPs: 423GP turns = 1269B
6.75GPs: 553GP turns = 1658B
And so on. The actual beakers will be a bit higher, assuming we have at least one Library in the capital (and maybe more, given Pericles' traits). In a game where we generate 8 great people in total, 1658B / 223H = 7.4, which is a good return.

Anyway, this is mostly speculative at the moment. Without Stone the value of the Mids plummets.

I actually thought the same, but there is one player in a team who almost hates Mids and finds them too expensive even with stone.

If we find stone somewhere close, and it also turns out we won't be REXing and warring very early, count me in team Mids. I like their research to war transition. But they are really expensive and all three conditions will hardly be met.

Yamps · Jan 11, 2015

shakabrade said:
I actually thought the same, but there is one player in a team who almost hates Mids and finds them too expensive even with stone.

Hmm, I wonder who would that be... :mischief:

@Doshin

The return here is not phenomenal (say Stone + OR = 930B / 223H = 4.17), but this will research Machinery and another tech for us. Since we will likely be the team dictating the tech path, we should be able to start warring 35 turns sooner, while also switching into Police State for cheaper warring. I would say this already outranks the GLH, which can then be captured.

Duckweed's estimate was also around 1000 beakers for the GLH:

How much GLH could offer before we could capture it with Galleons + trebs. Assume T60 GLH and 10 cities around T110, GLH could offer 2 trade routes * 1~2C * 6 average cities * 50 turns = 600~1200 C. Are those gain better than 200H plus 2 earlier cities plus earlier start of war to take cities from AIs? Moreover, if the three tasks that we know could be completed in similar time, we could also start to farm workers or even take cities from William.

The question is the same, what's the early development cost and when do we start GP farming with GLH/Mids vs without? The value of those wonders after the global war check point is less important, since we'd be able to capture them.

Another point to reiterate, it is possible to bulb Engineering with a GS even though we have Fishing. We'd still have to get all those other distracting techs on our way to Astro. Still, heavy GM farming before Astro and Engineering would help as well.

SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

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Procrastination at its finest

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