So demanding things is fair then?
SGOTM 21 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
So demanding things is fair then?
Dhoomstriker
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A few points:
- We don't technically need the Cow to be Pastured for a while, since we're going to be at Size 2 for quite some time (until Turn 64), and working either the Crab or the Cow would give us the same amount of Food... and, we certainly don't want to stop working the Gems Mine
- When we finally hit Size 3, we can simply work the GH Mine in place of a Cow Pasture... not AS great, but a few turns of doing so would mean that Worker 1 will be Chopping at Corn City faster... which translates into more Food from Corn City's Granary OR a shot at Chopping out The Oracle, should we get Meditation or Polytheism in trade
- Worker 2 can do the Cow Pasturing after Chopping out The Great Lighthouse
- Since we can't beg anything from Willem, I'd rather get Mysticism for Bronze Working, then get Animal Husbandry from Math after Willem learns Writing on his own... we're still getting the tech, but then we can hopefully get something better in trade for Math than "just Mysticism"
- Mysticism gives us a 20% boost on teching Masonry
- IF and only if we take Mysticism in trade, research on Masonry can be delayed for 2 turns while we dump Flasks into Currency at a 0% Science Rate, and then, by knowing Mysticism, Masonry becomes a 2-turn tech... we just need Masonry 4 turns from now, since we'll whip a Lighthouse 3 turns from now and we need to capture the overflow Hammers on the 4th turn
- It's possible that we could still get Masonry in trade in 2 turns or part of Masonry in trade after 3 turns... although the key turn to trading Math to Willem is right after Willem learns Writing, which is listed as being 3 turns, but that number varies over time as an AI plays around with its Commerce Sliders, so don't rely on that time being 3 turns from now
- As long as Elizabeth is not Shaka's Worst Enemy (it could change at any time, so please check the F4 GLANCE screen every turn, or at least on a turn when you want to make a trade),I think that we should gift her Math on T57, to give her a chance at researching some post-Math techs, too EDIT: We should wait to gift Math to Elizabeth until after we have traded Math to Willem, and then we might still hang on to Math if we haven't gotten Animal Husbandry in trade yet, as Elizabeth will immediately trade us Animal Husbandry as soon as she learns that tech
- If an AI Demands a tech, I would suggest giving it to that AI. A swing of +2 Attitude (+1 for giving into the Demand and not getting -1 for Refusing the Demand) will help with any of the AIs at this point... with any luck, Shaka will Demand a tech due to us not trading with him, since AIs seem to trigger the Demand/Request a tech mode only after you haven't been trading with them for X turns (where X is usually one of 5, 10, or 15)
- As BSPollux says, Requesting or Demanding anything from Willem is one of the few ways to INSTANTLY LOSE the game.
That's what he and Deckhand meant when they wrote that we cannot Bug from Willem... it means no Demanding anything and no Requesting anything, so we cannot make a trade with Willem where only he puts something on the trading table
- As a general habit of mine, since I don't like Requesting or Demanding anything by accident, I always put a tech on my side of the trading window first and only then put something on the AI's side of the trading window. That way, if I misclick, the worst thing that I did was give away something to an AI, instead of making the AI potentially hate me
- Worker 1 can thus do:
T56 Move to G Road that is 1E of Surfin' Turf (2E of G Cow), partial Farm, and STOP
T57 Move to the GH Riv For that is not Roaded and that is NW of the G Riv Gems Mine (SE + S of the G Corn)
T58 + T59 partially Chop that Forest and STOP
T60... At this point, we decide if we're going to try for The Oracle, in which case we don't complete the Chop and move 1NW GH For to Chop that Forest, giving us two Forests which are already pre-Chopped; if we don't try for The Oracle, then we can simply complete the two partial Forest Chops into our Granary to get the Granary in time to start with a half-full Foodbox at Size 2
- We don't technically need the Cow to be Pastured for a while, since we're going to be at Size 2 for quite some time (until Turn 64), and working either the Crab or the Cow would give us the same amount of Food... and, we certainly don't want to stop working the Gems Mine
- When we finally hit Size 3, we can simply work the GH Mine in place of a Cow Pasture... not AS great, but a few turns of doing so would mean that Worker 1 will be Chopping at Corn City faster... which translates into more Food from Corn City's Granary OR a shot at Chopping out The Oracle, should we get Meditation or Polytheism in trade
- Worker 2 can do the Cow Pasturing after Chopping out The Great Lighthouse
- Since we can't beg anything from Willem, I'd rather get Mysticism for Bronze Working, then get Animal Husbandry from Math after Willem learns Writing on his own... we're still getting the tech, but then we can hopefully get something better in trade for Math than "just Mysticism"
- Mysticism gives us a 20% boost on teching Masonry
- IF and only if we take Mysticism in trade, research on Masonry can be delayed for 2 turns while we dump Flasks into Currency at a 0% Science Rate, and then, by knowing Mysticism, Masonry becomes a 2-turn tech... we just need Masonry 4 turns from now, since we'll whip a Lighthouse 3 turns from now and we need to capture the overflow Hammers on the 4th turn
- It's possible that we could still get Masonry in trade in 2 turns or part of Masonry in trade after 3 turns... although the key turn to trading Math to Willem is right after Willem learns Writing, which is listed as being 3 turns, but that number varies over time as an AI plays around with its Commerce Sliders, so don't rely on that time being 3 turns from now
- As long as Elizabeth is not Shaka's Worst Enemy (it could change at any time, so please check the F4 GLANCE screen every turn, or at least on a turn when you want to make a trade),
- If an AI Demands a tech, I would suggest giving it to that AI. A swing of +2 Attitude (+1 for giving into the Demand and not getting -1 for Refusing the Demand) will help with any of the AIs at this point... with any luck, Shaka will Demand a tech due to us not trading with him, since AIs seem to trigger the Demand/Request a tech mode only after you haven't been trading with them for X turns (where X is usually one of 5, 10, or 15)
- As BSPollux says, Requesting or Demanding anything from Willem is one of the few ways to INSTANTLY LOSE the game.
That's what he and Deckhand meant when they wrote that we cannot Bug from Willem... it means no Demanding anything and no Requesting anything, so we cannot make a trade with Willem where only he puts something on the trading table- As a general habit of mine, since I don't like Requesting or Demanding anything by accident, I always put a tech on my side of the trading window first and only then put something on the AI's side of the trading window. That way, if I misclick, the worst thing that I did was give away something to an AI, instead of making the AI potentially hate me
- Worker 1 can thus do:
T56 Move to G Road that is 1E of Surfin' Turf (2E of G Cow), partial Farm, and STOP
T57 Move to the GH Riv For that is not Roaded and that is NW of the G Riv Gems Mine (SE + S of the G Corn)
T58 + T59 partially Chop that Forest and STOP
T60... At this point, we decide if we're going to try for The Oracle, in which case we don't complete the Chop and move 1NW GH For to Chop that Forest, giving us two Forests which are already pre-Chopped; if we don't try for The Oracle, then we can simply complete the two partial Forest Chops into our Granary to get the Granary in time to start with a half-full Foodbox at Size 2
Dhoomstriker
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I edited my message above, so please be sure to read all of the points written there.
It doesn't seem fair to other teams, who may be further along than we are, to suddenly change the rules.
Besides, and here's the most important part for our team: Willem is CAUTIOUS toward us, so Demanding/Requesting anything from him will give us a -1 Attitude hit with him. -1 Attitude is NOT worth it. So, the discussion should be irrelevant... don't plan on Demanding or Requesting anything from Willem.
I'm not sure why you're changing your mind now.
It doesn't seem fair to other teams, who may be further along than we are, to suddenly change the rules.
Besides, and here's the most important part for our team: Willem is CAUTIOUS toward us, so Demanding/Requesting anything from him will give us a -1 Attitude hit with him. -1 Attitude is NOT worth it. So, the discussion should be irrelevant... don't plan on Demanding or Requesting anything from Willem.
Dhoomstriker
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I'm not sure what knowing that number does for us in terms of calculating whether other AIs know a tech or not.
What I can tell you is that in the test game, since Willem is building The Great Wall (which already got built in the real game), it's hard to tell what he will trade... so, I will give Willem The Great Wall via the World Builder will and advance the game 1 turn to do some testing:
- If Willem knows 2 AIs, all 2 of those AIs must know Masonry for him to be able to trade Masonry to us
- If Willem knows 3 AIs, only 2 of those AIs must know Masonry for him to be able to trade Masonry to us
So, we just need one other AI that Willem knows to learn Masonry. If Willem has met a 3rd AI, then we have yet another chance for one of Shaka or that AI to learn Masonry over the next 2 turns (or over the next 3 turns to get part of Masonry in trade).
Willem will trade either of Meditation or Polytheism if 1 out of 3 AIs that he has met also knows said tech. (The same is true of 1 out of 2 if he has only met Elizabeth and Shaka.)
Hmmm, I suppose that we should hold off on gifting Math to Elizabeth until AFTER we have traded it to Willem, rather than trading Math to Elizabeth on T57, since Willem will give us more trading value for Math if it is still a monopoly tech (i.e. if we haven't traded Math to anyone else yet).
If we do manage to have Animal Husbandry, Masonry, and a Religious tech all on the table for Math, but can only get 2 of those techs, remember that Animal Husbandry is the tech NOT to take, because Animal Husbandry is a non-monopoly tech, meaning that we can easily get it in trade from any other AI who researches it. Of course, partial research into Masonry and the number of AIs who Willem has met who also knows some of those techs influence the exact values, so it's possible that we'd get all 3 techs in trade for Math, but realistically, Animal Husbandry is the easiest tech to get in trade from any AI, so if we can't get Animal Husbandry from Willem, we can avoid gifting Math to Elizabeth after trading Math to Willem until she learns Animal Husbandry, and then trade Math to Elizabeth for Animal Husbandry. That case will only arise if Willem actually has both Masonry and a Religious tech to put on the table at once, and partial research into Masonry might still let us get all 3 techs for Math anyway.
Remember that there is a some important micro to perform in the game after Sailing is learned (Lighthouse in X-opolis and Galley in Gems City).
Dhoomstriker
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This wording also changes the ability for players to sell Resources to Willem for Gold per Turn, as doing so would be taking Gold (cash) via a diplomatic action.
I'd prefer that we just stick with the original ruling but clarify that Begging refers to Demanding or Requesting of in any form. It's easier to understand and less likely for players to get stuck in other traps (such as some teams believing that they cannot sell Resources for Gold per Turn while other teams believing that they can, so then some teams would do it and it wouldn't be fair to disqualify them, but the teams who didn't do it would have lost out on an opportunity).
Dhoomstriker
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Even if some teams missed the Turn 60 comparison date, we can at least try to hit it, if for no other reason than to help compare our position against that of other teams. Of course, efficient whipping can mean a lower Score, so the numbers aren't always directly comparable anyway.
This turnset is the most complicated one to date, especially with us having to be careful not to complete Forest Chops just yet (otherwise we may kiss The Great Lighthouse goodbye... one Chop being completed too soon can mean a diference of delaying The Great Lighthouse by a couple of turns, ouch!).
In the real game, Willem and Elizabeth both know Polytheism, but both of them do not know Meditation. Both of them also do not know Priesthood
We can tell because:
I'm working with the test game now to see how to best use our overflow Flasks in terms of tech rates.
Unfortunately, if we gift Willem Bronze Working in the test game (his current tech choice, if you look at the F6 TECHs screen via the World Builder and select his name, and use a Great Spy to perform an Infiltration Mission on him so that we could also see his Research the next turn), he will Revolt to Slavery but still pick his next tech even when in Anarchy.
That said, there is also the argument that the sooner that we put Writing in Willem's hands, the sooner that he can learn SOME useful tech for us, be it Iron Working or whatever, rather than having him waste 3 turns of research on a tech that we already know.
It's certainly going to be easier to plan when to get Polytheism if we just trade Writing to Willem on the current turn. Let me think about it a bit more while I look at Science Rates for you.
EDIT:
This turnset is the most complicated one to date, especially with us having to be careful not to complete Forest Chops just yet (otherwise we may kiss The Great Lighthouse goodbye... one Chop being completed too soon can mean a diference of delaying The Great Lighthouse by a couple of turns, ouch!).
In the real game, Willem and Elizabeth both know Polytheism, but both of them do not know Meditation. Both of them also do not know Priesthood
We can tell because:
Spoiler :
Oh, and we need to take Sailing this turn if we don't want to delay The Great Lighthouse.
I'm working with the test game now to see how to best use our overflow Flasks in terms of tech rates.
Unfortunately, if we gift Willem Bronze Working in the test game (his current tech choice, if you look at the F6 TECHs screen via the World Builder and select his name, and use a Great Spy to perform an Infiltration Mission on him so that we could also see his Research the next turn), he will Revolt to Slavery but still pick his next tech even when in Anarchy.
That said, there is also the argument that the sooner that we put Writing in Willem's hands, the sooner that he can learn SOME useful tech for us, be it Iron Working or whatever, rather than having him waste 3 turns of research on a tech that we already know.
It's certainly going to be easier to plan when to get Polytheism if we just trade Writing to Willem on the current turn. Let me think about it a bit more while I look at Science Rates for you.
EDIT:
We must learn Masonry over the course of the next 4 turns to avoid delaying The Great Lighthouse. 3 turns of putting Hammers into a Lighthouse that total less than 30 Hammers, 1 turn of whipping said Lighthouse, and then we'll need to know Masonry by the start of the following turn for the overflow Hammers to get captured in The Great Lighthouse itself.
Dhoomstriker
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Sweet! It looks like our Gold reserves will help us out beautifully, as it would be nice to spend only 3 turns on 2 techs and it looks like we can do almost exactly that! We'll need 1 turn of 90% Science to make it happen.
The timing pushes our hands in terms of the second round of tech-trading, so we might as well force it to happen next turn, rather than waiting for Willem to research Writing after roughly 4 turns (3 turns + 1 turn of Anarchy), which would be too late for us to get Polytheism in order to get Priesthood in time for the first Forest Chop.
Also, I highly suggest that you play out the PPP in the test game first; there are a lot of subtle details, such as having to move Worker 3 and manually load him into Galley 1 before Galley 1 moves on T58, then unloading him when our Galley has no movement points remaining on T59.
I did have to fudge things in the test game in terms of techs (getting Sailing from Willem and Mysticism + Archery from Isabella, taking Masonry away from Sury, and giving Polytheism to Willem). I also had to do some playing around to get the right Foreign Trade Routes (two of Isablla's Cities got made to be part of a separate continent and I Opened Borders with her, since we determined from the DEMOGRAPHICS screen that Elizabeth is on another continent... if Elizabeth settles another City at any time, the total number of Foreign Trade Routes could go up, but since that may not happen, I had to destroy one of Isabella's Cities on the main continent when settling City 4).
Suggested PPP (for Folket to play)
T56, 1760 BC
Trade:
Sailing + Archery from Elizabeth <-> Writing + Bronze Working
Trade:
Mysticism from Willem <-> Writing + Bronze Working
Science Rate to 100%
Research: Masonry
C1: Switch Barracks -> Lighthouse (3 overflow H + 6 base H = 9 H)
C2: Switch Granary -> Galley (6 H)
C1: Deer, Crab, G Riv Farm, GH Riv Mine (growth in 2 turns barely)
C2: 2 Gems, Wheat, GH Mine
C3: Crab, Gems
W1: Move to the G Road that is 1E of City 3 (2E of the G Cow) and pFarm and STOP
W2: pChop the G For that is 2W of Cap and STOP!!!
W3: Finish the G Riv Road that is 2SE of the G Corn
Settler 4: Moves northward, ending up 1E of City 3
Work Boat 2: Pick a direction to explore. Going in a south-westerly direction along our landmass may give us Foreign Trade Routes with Shaka. Elizabeth is on another landmass (+100% for Overseas Trade), while we've seen Shaka's Scout on our landmass.
Warriors and Scouts: They seem to be in decent positions right now:
T57, 1720 BC
90% Science Rate
Trade:
Animal Husbandry + Polytheism from Willem (unless he is building The Temple of Artemis, in which case stop play to ask what to do) <-> Math
Trade:
First, check the F4 RELATIONS screen to ensure that Willem isn't anyone's Worst Enemy
If he isn't anyone's Worst Enemy, gift Alphabet to Willem (obviously, take a tech in trade for Alphabet he has it, such as Monotheism)
Trade:
First, check the F4 RELATIONS screen to ensure that Elizabeth isn't anyone's Worst Enemy
If she isn't anyone's Worst Enemy, gift Math to Elizabeth
Let us know which tech Willem has chosen
C1: G Riv Farm -> Wheat
C1: Crab -> GH Mine
C2: 2-pop-whip the Galley in Gems City
C2: Should be working 2 Gems Mines
C3: Crab -> GH Mine
C1: Deer, Wheat GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H, can still grow to Size 5 this turn)
C2: 2 Gems at Size 2
C3: Gems, GH Mine
W1: Move northward to the GH Riv For that is NW of the G Riv Gems Mine (SE + S of the G Corn)
W2: Move 1S G For (SW + W of Cap)
W3: Move 1SW GH Riv For (2NW of City 2), pChop, and STOP
Settler 4: Move northward (can settle Corn City next turn)
T58, 1680 BC
Masonry self-teched
Research: Priesthood
Science Rate: 100%
C1: Size 5, Work the Crab
C2: Galley -> Granary (complete the Granary in 1 turn)
C3: GH Mine -> Crab (2 turns to complete the Granary, at the perfect time to get a full Granary when growing to Size 3)
Settle City 4 on the G Riv that is 2N of the G Riv Gems Mine (SE + E of the G Corn)
C4: Steal the G Riv Gems Mine (happens automatically)
C4: Build a Granary
C2: G Riv Gems Mine -> G Riv Farm (happens automatically)
C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H)
C2: 1 Gems, G Riv Farm
C3: Crab, Gems
C4: Gems
W1: Chop the GH For Riv that is 1NW of the G Riv Gems Mine (1SW of City 4)
W2: Chop the G For that is SW + W of Cap
W3: Move into City 2 via the Roads then load into the Galley
Galley 1, with Worker 3 aboard, moves SE + SE (2E of the Wheat)
Scout: Move 1SW G, 1W G Corn (NW + W of City 4)
T59, 1640 BC
Priesthood self-teched
Research: Currency
Science Rate: 0%
C1: 2-pop-whip the Lighthouse!!!
C1: Wheat -> GH Riv Mine
C1: Crab -> GH Mine
C2: Granary -> Work Boat
C2: G Riv Farm -> Wheat
C4: Build The Oracle
C1: Deer, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H)
C2: 1 Gems, Wheat (growth in 2 turns with a full Granary)
C3: Crab, Gems (Granary in 1 turn, arriving at the perfect time)
C4: Gems
Galley 1: Move SE + S (to be 1NE of the Fur) and unload Warrior 3 on the G For that is 1E of the Fur
W1: Continue Chopping the GH Riv For that is 1NW of the G Riv Gems Mine (SE + S of the G Corn)
W2: Continue Chopping the G For that is SW + W of Cap
Scout: Move 1W GH For (1W of the G Corn)
Warrior 1: Move 1S G For (SW + SW of the G Corn) on his way to Gems City (unless it is not safe for him to move... next turn is the last turn that he can move and still arrive at Gems City in time to avoid us delaying our Great Scientist #2)
T60, 1600 BC
C1: Lighthouse -> The Great Lighthouse
C3: Granary -> Archer would be my suggestion (maybe Lighthouse?)
C1: Deer, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H)
C2: 1 Gems, Wheat (growth in 1 turn with a full Granary)
C3: Crab, Gems (growth in 4 turns)
C4: Gems
W1: Complete the GH Riv For's Chop
W2: Finish Chopping the G For that is SW + W of Cap into The Great Lighthouse
W3: Chop the G For that is 1E of the Fur
Warrior 1: Move toward Gems City this turn if he hasn't started already
Scout: Move 1SW GH Riv For (SW + W of the G Corn) (unless its not safe to do so due to a nearby Barb)
The timing pushes our hands in terms of the second round of tech-trading, so we might as well force it to happen next turn, rather than waiting for Willem to research Writing after roughly 4 turns (3 turns + 1 turn of Anarchy), which would be too late for us to get Polytheism in order to get Priesthood in time for the first Forest Chop.
Also, I highly suggest that you play out the PPP in the test game first; there are a lot of subtle details, such as having to move Worker 3 and manually load him into Galley 1 before Galley 1 moves on T58, then unloading him when our Galley has no movement points remaining on T59.
I did have to fudge things in the test game in terms of techs (getting Sailing from Willem and Mysticism + Archery from Isabella, taking Masonry away from Sury, and giving Polytheism to Willem). I also had to do some playing around to get the right Foreign Trade Routes (two of Isablla's Cities got made to be part of a separate continent and I Opened Borders with her, since we determined from the DEMOGRAPHICS screen that Elizabeth is on another continent... if Elizabeth settles another City at any time, the total number of Foreign Trade Routes could go up, but since that may not happen, I had to destroy one of Isabella's Cities on the main continent when settling City 4).
Suggested PPP (for Folket to play)
T56, 1760 BC
Trade:
Sailing + Archery from Elizabeth <-> Writing + Bronze Working
Trade:
Mysticism from Willem <-> Writing + Bronze Working
Science Rate to 100%
Research: Masonry
C1: Switch Barracks -> Lighthouse (3 overflow H + 6 base H = 9 H)
C2: Switch Granary -> Galley (6 H)
C1: Deer, Crab, G Riv Farm, GH Riv Mine (growth in 2 turns barely)
C2: 2 Gems, Wheat, GH Mine
C3: Crab, Gems
W1: Move to the G Road that is 1E of City 3 (2E of the G Cow) and pFarm and STOP
W2: pChop the G For that is 2W of Cap and STOP!!!
W3: Finish the G Riv Road that is 2SE of the G Corn
Settler 4: Moves northward, ending up 1E of City 3
Work Boat 2: Pick a direction to explore. Going in a south-westerly direction along our landmass may give us Foreign Trade Routes with Shaka. Elizabeth is on another landmass (+100% for Overseas Trade), while we've seen Shaka's Scout on our landmass.
Warriors and Scouts: They seem to be in decent positions right now:
Spoiler :
T57, 1720 BC
90% Science Rate
Spoiler :
Trade:
Animal Husbandry + Polytheism from Willem (unless he is building The Temple of Artemis, in which case stop play to ask what to do) <-> Math
Trade:
First, check the F4 RELATIONS screen to ensure that Willem isn't anyone's Worst Enemy
If he isn't anyone's Worst Enemy, gift Alphabet to Willem (obviously, take a tech in trade for Alphabet he has it, such as Monotheism)
Trade:
First, check the F4 RELATIONS screen to ensure that Elizabeth isn't anyone's Worst Enemy
If she isn't anyone's Worst Enemy, gift Math to Elizabeth
Spoiler :
Let us know which tech Willem has chosen
C1: G Riv Farm -> Wheat
C1: Crab -> GH Mine
C2: 2-pop-whip the Galley in Gems City
C2: Should be working 2 Gems Mines
C3: Crab -> GH Mine
C1: Deer, Wheat GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H, can still grow to Size 5 this turn)
C2: 2 Gems at Size 2
C3: Gems, GH Mine
W1: Move northward to the GH Riv For that is NW of the G Riv Gems Mine (SE + S of the G Corn)
W2: Move 1S G For (SW + W of Cap)
W3: Move 1SW GH Riv For (2NW of City 2), pChop, and STOP
Settler 4: Move northward (can settle Corn City next turn)
T58, 1680 BC
Masonry self-teched
Research: Priesthood
Science Rate: 100%
C1: Size 5, Work the Crab
C2: Galley -> Granary (complete the Granary in 1 turn)
C3: GH Mine -> Crab (2 turns to complete the Granary, at the perfect time to get a full Granary when growing to Size 3)
Settle City 4 on the G Riv that is 2N of the G Riv Gems Mine (SE + E of the G Corn)
C4: Steal the G Riv Gems Mine (happens automatically)
C4: Build a Granary
C2: G Riv Gems Mine -> G Riv Farm (happens automatically)
C1: Deer, Crab, Wheat, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H)
C2: 1 Gems, G Riv Farm
C3: Crab, Gems
C4: Gems
W1: Chop the GH For Riv that is 1NW of the G Riv Gems Mine (1SW of City 4)
W2: Chop the G For that is SW + W of Cap
W3: Move into City 2 via the Roads then load into the Galley
Galley 1, with Worker 3 aboard, moves SE + SE (2E of the Wheat)
Spoiler :
Scout: Move 1SW G, 1W G Corn (NW + W of City 4)
T59, 1640 BC
Priesthood self-teched
Research: Currency
Science Rate: 0%
C1: 2-pop-whip the Lighthouse!!!
C1: Wheat -> GH Riv Mine
C1: Crab -> GH Mine
C2: Granary -> Work Boat
C2: G Riv Farm -> Wheat
C4: Build The Oracle
Spoiler :
C1: Deer, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H)
C2: 1 Gems, Wheat (growth in 2 turns with a full Granary)
C3: Crab, Gems (Granary in 1 turn, arriving at the perfect time)
C4: Gems
Galley 1: Move SE + S (to be 1NE of the Fur) and unload Warrior 3 on the G For that is 1E of the Fur
W1: Continue Chopping the GH Riv For that is 1NW of the G Riv Gems Mine (SE + S of the G Corn)
W2: Continue Chopping the G For that is SW + W of Cap
Scout: Move 1W GH For (1W of the G Corn)
Warrior 1: Move 1S G For (SW + SW of the G Corn) on his way to Gems City (unless it is not safe for him to move... next turn is the last turn that he can move and still arrive at Gems City in time to avoid us delaying our Great Scientist #2)
T60, 1600 BC
C1: Lighthouse -> The Great Lighthouse
C3: Granary -> Archer would be my suggestion (maybe Lighthouse?)
C1: Deer, GH Riv Mine, GH Mine (total of +9 H)
C2: 1 Gems, Wheat (growth in 1 turn with a full Granary)
C3: Crab, Gems (growth in 4 turns)
C4: Gems
W1: Complete the GH Riv For's Chop
W2: Finish Chopping the G For that is SW + W of Cap into The Great Lighthouse
W3: Chop the G For that is 1E of the Fur
Warrior 1: Move toward Gems City this turn if he hasn't started already
Scout: Move 1SW GH Riv For (SW + W of the G Corn) (unless its not safe to do so due to a nearby Barb)
Spoiler :
I'm trying the PPP now and it seems to me that we are loosing 0.87 flasks at 90%.
Seems like the test game as bot positioned our opponent such that we get trade routes.
Shall I do the tech trades in the real game and we can see what our real commerce rate will be?
Not convinced that not working crabs in city 3 is a good idea. We seem to gain 1 food while loosing 2 commerce.
Warrior 1 could start moving east on turn 57 since workers will be spawnbusting.
Me testing this was 6 beakers from finishing Priesthood. But it might just be that I did not setup the foreign trade routes.
I think we should unload the worker on the tile that is north of the fur. It will give us more hammers and we can chop the tile east of fur into a granary in the fur city.
If Shakas scout manages to escape isolation we will lack fogbusting in the northeast. Shall we just hope for the best in that case? I think we should keep the scout in the east if that happens.
Seems like the test game as bot positioned our opponent such that we get trade routes.
Shall I do the tech trades in the real game and we can see what our real commerce rate will be?
Not convinced that not working crabs in city 3 is a good idea. We seem to gain 1 food while loosing 2 commerce.
Warrior 1 could start moving east on turn 57 since workers will be spawnbusting.
Me testing this was 6 beakers from finishing Priesthood. But it might just be that I did not setup the foreign trade routes.
I think we should unload the worker on the tile that is north of the fur. It will give us more hammers and we can chop the tile east of fur into a granary in the fur city.
If Shakas scout manages to escape isolation we will lack fogbusting in the northeast. Shall we just hope for the best in that case? I think we should keep the scout in the east if that happens.
It seems like the archer in the southeast might be dangerous to us. If it approaches the city I guess I will have to whip an archer. But I can stop playing in that case.
And how should we handle demands? accept all but a demand for alphabet?
Let us discuss my suggestions to Dhooms PPP and I can play until turn 60 tonight.
And how should we handle demands? accept all but a demand for alphabet?
Let us discuss my suggestions to Dhooms PPP and I can play until turn 60 tonight.
Dhoomstriker
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Yes, and we lose 0.75 Flasks at 100%.
0.87 - 0.75 = 0.12 relative Flasks
That's why I faked it by editing Isabella's land, but I didn't upload an updated version of the test game reflecting that fact, as I saved over my changes. I'll have to put out an updated version of the test game when I get some more time, even if it only gets used to give us a more accurate Turn 60 test game.
It's as good of an idea as any.
I worked out the math earlier. The net result is +4 Food and -4 Commerce, due to the extra Food gained in the Granary itself kick-starting our growth from Size 3 to Size 4. Food seems more important at this stage, as it would be great to get City 3 to Size 4 and then 2-pop-whip another Worker.
He's our insurance if a Barb Archer wanders near to us... everyone can hide behind him in his fortified position with a 125% Defensive bonus (Forest + Hills + River + Fortification) or at least 100% if a Barb Archer wanders across of the River without attacking and then attacks.
Ideally, we won't have to whip our first Archer and thus he's the best thing that we have going for defence in the short-term, which is why I suggested waiting to move him.
With 3, 2, and 3 for Foreign Trade Routes (I don't know why the test game put the weaker Trade Route in City 2, which has a Library), we seemed to be able to get Masonry -> Priesthood in 3 turns... but, even if it takes 4 turns, that's just 2 less Hammers going into The Oracle.
That square is where Fur City can actually work 1 Cottage on behalf of the capital. Although the game allows us to settle within 2 squares of another City if that City is on another landmass, there are no Cottages that we could work for the capital by being closer, we take away 1 potential Cottage square that the capital can work, and then we end up just overlapping a ton of squares with the capital.
I'd much rather have Fur City improve a Cottage for the capital, since our settling pattern allows for at most 1 other square to be worked as a shared Cottage from either of Cities 2 and 3.
He only has a couple of turns to escape, assuming that we don't Close Borders with Shaka, as City 4's Cultural Borders should lock him in as soon as the City gets settled, but yes, I agree with you that if Shaka's Scout breaks free, we should keep our Scout in the north-east instead.
I hope that you mean the south-west. Once the Barbs rush us, which I'm hoping won't be for a while yet, we'll hopefully have replaced Warrior 3 with the Scout, then will have replaced Warrior 1 with Warrior 3, and will have a lure for northern Archers, and I'm hoping that we'll have self-built an Archer for City 3 by that time, but yeah, definitely stop play if the Barbs seem to be rushing us.
For a nearby AI (one of the 3 that we've met, assuming that the Map Maker didn't pull an evil trick on us and put Shaka's Scout on our continent and Shaka himself on the other side of the world), I'd probably even give in to a Demand for Alphabet.
For any other AIs that we meet, I'd probably refuse an Alphabet Demand and give in to any other Demand.
Worst case, we end up enabling all of our neighbours with all of our techs... if The Oracle works out and we grab, say, Metal Casting, our neighbours could then build Forges for us to capture, and Elizabeth is one AI who loves to build The Colossus.
If we end up giving away Alphabet to a neighbour, then we'll just have to be careful to ensure that they have as few as possible trading opportunities available to them, while still keeping the Religious techs that lead to Feudalism out of their hands as much as possible.
Fortunately, it is not easy for players to trade techs with Shaka, since Shaka must be Pleased toward another player and he has a pretty high iTechTradeKnownPercent at 50. So, even if Shaka Demands Alphabet, it's not the end of the world.
Basically, if Alphabet gets let out of the bag, we just have to keep that neighbour (or neighbours) as the most knowledgeable player (or players) in the world, so that when they meet others (Shaka has apparently already met someone else), the other AIs won't have anything to trade to them.
The annoying part is that I think that you still get Worst Enemy points for giving in to a Demand, but at least you get twice as much credit for trading value as you get in Worst Enemy credits, so over time, Worst Enemy points would wear off twice as quickly as trading value points. Presumably, though, Shaka won't be able to ask for Alphabet or Math anytime soon anyway, as we won't give him Writing until he's no longer Elizabeth's Worst Enemy (which may not happen and thus Shaka may remain forever backward, at least until Hinduism gets spread around)... and a Demand for Writing shouldn't anger Elizabeth too much... what would be more annoying is a Demand for Mysticism, but if Shaka asks for it, we'll just have to give it to him.
Ultimately, our goals are to enable our immediate neighbours with techs so that they can research useful things for us, but then can be killed before they get to Feudalism by the nature of being close, or can build late-Ancient Wonders or Classical Wonders for us due to having the relevant techs much earlier than other AIs in the world, such as by getting Calendar really early and building MoM really early.
While it wouldn't be as great to capture The Hanging Gardens as to self-build it, perhaps we might end up capturing a nice AI capital that has an Aqueduct pre-built in it while that Wonder is still available. But, even if that Wonder gets built by a neighbour, capturing it is still better than it belonging to a far-away AI, as we'd still be able to capture some of the earned population points and we'd still get the +1 Health bonus, all without a far-away AI getting stronger from free City growth empire-wide.
As for The Oracle, I'm thinking that 4 Forest Chops (120 Hammers) plus some raw Hammers should finish it off. The only question will be whether we can complete the Chops on time. We'll be starting pretty early, so we should have at least a decent chance.
It may be that when Worker 2 is done with Chopping for The Great Lighthouse, if The Oracle is still available, he rushes up to City 4 to try to get that Wonder out a bit faster, while a self-whipped Worker out of City 3 is the one to Pasture its own G Cow square. Better to get a 730-Flask tech and delay the Pasture for a while. There's also the outside chance of Oracling Civil Service, which would be a beastly thing to do, if we can pull it off.
The 5th Chop can go into a Granary for City 4, which can be 1-pop-whipped... not quite the original purpose of the City, but 4 GPP per turn from being Philosophical is also a useful bonus from one of the cheaper Wonders in the game.
I'm not certain we should cottage our capital this game. There seems to be many better spots and moving our capital would lower our distance maintenance. Chopping the forest N of fur will give us the GLH one turn earlier.
With our traits and the GLH we might not need a single cottage this game. Except for all those cottages we will capture.
Dhoomstriker
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You're right... I ignored counting several turns of +3 H and - 2 Commerce while at Size 2, treating those values as being relatively equal to each other, since the difference in Food was already factored in above.
In that case, assuming that you value Hammers to be roughly equal to Commerce, working the GH Mine to get the Granary faster is even stronger than I originally roughly calculated.
We have an insanely fast tech pace, we have Math, and we will have Priesthood in 3 turns' time. We also have a Great Scientist #2 planned. What does that scream? It screams "get Bureaucracy + an Academy in your capital!"
Whether we're able to Oracle Civil Service or whether we self-tech it reasonably early, our setup screams Bureaucracy + Academy.
If Fur City can improve 1 Town, that Town will, pre-Printing-Press, pre-Education, be worth 4 * 1.5 * 1.75 = 10.5 Flasks per turn. Toss in Education for a University and Oxford and pre-Printing Press 1 Town will be worth 4 * 1.5 * 3 = 18 Flasks per turn. Toss in Printing Press and that goes up to 5 * 1.5 * 3 = 22.5 Flasks per turn.
That's a pretty huge bonus for Fur City to provide when Fur City is otherwise not going to be doing a whole lot, earning 2* 1.25 = 2.25 Flasks (with a Library) to 2* 1.5 = 3 Flasks (with a University) per turn from working a Coast square.
That's a relative difference of 22.5 - 3 = 19.5 Flasks per turn from one square, just because we decided to settle a City like Fur that really has nothing better to work after its Crab... Gems City is a bit busy working other squares and hiring Scientists, although we can later convert the shared G Riv Farm into a Cottage, too.
The sucky part is having the capital need to grow its own Cottages, but if we can get 1 City to do it for us, I'd gladly give up the 3 Cities * 2 Trade Routes * 1 Commerce each = 6 total Commerce and 4 Merchant GPP at this stage of the game when we don't have a lot of mapped-out Foreign Trade Routes, for a chance to make the above numbers of Flasks literally for free relative to working a Coast square (and, we'd earn back more +1 Food per turn in working the Cottage while Fur City still doesn't have its Lighthouse).
If there's one spot that we can make great use of helper Cottages, it's the capital. We wanted more production for City 3 in order to probably make it our Heroic Epic City (an early-game Hammer City... the Heroic Epic doesn't need to go in your Ironworks City as then it would come too late in the game, it just needs to come in a City with a decent amount of production), so we had a valid reason to not share +1 Grassland square between City 3 and the capital.
But for Fur City, I can't see 6 Commerce and 4 GPP being worth throwing away the huge gains of Fur City working a Cottage for the capital literally for free, since it doesn't have Hills to work or anything else to work besides 1 Crab and possibly stealing another Crab or the Fur from the capital from time-to-time when the capital is at the smallest part of its whipping cycles, and therefore Fur City would only work a Coast square in place of that awesome Cottage that will be a Town before we know it due to working it nearly every turn after we hit Size 2 for the second time (after the first time to Size 2, we'll whip the Granary).
EDIT: Did you move forward with the first-turn trades yet to see what our Trade Routes look like?
You are just confusing me. The question is to work the mine for 1 turn instead of the crabs. We get the granary 1 turn earlier but grows 1 turn later. Since every turn you work the mine instead of the crab you delay growth so there will be no difference in hammers since those hammers will come back when being at size 3 working the mine. Optionally working unimproved cow.
If we work mine the difference is 1 food for 2 commerce.
If we work cow the difference is 3 hammers for 1 food and 2 commerce.
Working cow at size 3 seems to be the best option.
Dhoomstriker
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Please consider both scenarios to Size 4. That's where we see the payoff from the Granary, by getting to Size 4 faster from getting a sooner Granary. In other words, the extra Food earned from getting the Granary sooner can mean an extra turn of working a square at Size 4. If we're not comparing at Size 4, then we're not factoring in the Granary's value at all.
Whether we work 4 squares at Size 4 for a while or whether we whip sooner, getting to Size 4 faster is the primary benefit from an earlier Granary, so whatever math we perform needs to account for growth to Size 4.
I fully understand that working a Cow Pasture is better than working a GH Mine at Size 3. But, in order to improve a Cow Pasture now, that takes an additional 5 Worker turns away from Chopping at City 4 (4 turns of Pasturing and 1 turn of movement). Those 5 turns could mean the difference between scoring The Oracle or not.
Whether we go for Metal Casting for 730 Flasks in exchange for 150 Hammers (plus 4 GPP per turn and some extra Culture to help with fog-busting) or we go for Oracling Civil Service, the extra gain from scoring The Oracle far outweighs the difference from working a Cow Pasture in place of a GH Mine for several turns.
Sure, if we miss The Oracle, that will suck, but at least we'd get some Gold to gift to Willem.
As I have suggested, if we're willing to delay the Cow Pasture and focus on The Oracle, we can have City 3 2-pop-whip a Worker one turn after it reaches Size 4 and then that Worker will immediately be in position to have the Cow Pastured without extra turns of movement, getting it Pastured around the time of regrowing to Size 3, thanks to the Granary.
It IS a bit of a sacrifice to delay the Cow Pasture, but not THAT much, since it's only going to be for the turns growing from Size 3 to Size 4. Assuming that we start off at about 14 Food at Size 3 (12 from the Granary and 2 overflow Food), we would need 26 - 14 = 12 Food to get to Size 4, and we'd be making 4 (Crab) + 2 (City Centre) + 1 (Gems) + 1 (GH Mine) - 3 * 2 (3 citizens eating Food) = 8 - 6 = 2 Food per turn, so that's 6 turns of working 1F + 3H instead of 4F + 2H... assuming F = H for simplicity's sake, and assuming +1 turn at Size 4 while building the Worker before 2-pop-whipping it that's 7 turns * 2 F/H = 14 lost F/H in exchange for a real shot at scoring The Oracle.
After whipping Worker 4, Worker 4 will complete the Cow Pasture in time for City 3 to regrow to Size 3, so there won't be further turns lost of not working the Cow Pasture.
Is roughly 14 F/H a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to grab The Oracle? If we can score Civil Service, I think that we're likely to be the only team with early Bureaucracy + an Academy, which will catapult our Science rate ahead (as well as our capital's Hammers being increased by 50%, which can help to make up for the lost 14 F/H quite quickly).
Now, if we can show that by getting the Cow Pasture now, we can make up the Worker turns by getting Worker 4 out fast enough to earn back the Worker turns Chopping in The Oracle, that's great. But, I suspect that we'll still be behind on Worker turns for Oracle Chops.
So, I'm willing to delay the Pasture in favour of an Oracle attempt. Are you?
EDIT: If, after showing growth to Size 4, working the Crab instead of the GH Mine seems better, then great. We definitely want to go with the strongest option. Food earned after building the Granary gets doubled, but only up to a maximum of 12 Food, so if we're earning considerably more than 12 Food after getting the Granary, we may have the opportunity to delay the Granary. I don't have the game in front of me, so I can't work out the numbers without more info...
what's our current total Food and total Hammers in City 3?
EDIT 2: Were you referring to working the unimproved Cow at Size 3? If so, I misunderstood your point, as I thought that you were advocating for trying to work the Pastured Cow at Size 3. The extra Food from working a 3-Food unimproved Cow after getting the Granary very likely does beat out working the GH Mine, if that's your point, as doing so would mean growing at a rate of 4 Food per turn instead of 2 Food per turn, allowing us to 2-pop-whip City 3 that much sooner. Good thinking!
I made the trades now and Shaka is annoyed with us. Did not like to have William pass him in score.
I'm not agreeing with your idea about academy and CS. If our capital was good and the good tech rate was because of a lot of commerce in the capital it makes sense to try to leverage that. But here our commerce is spread out so CS and academy won't make as much of a difference. I think we are better off to plan for moving our capital to an AI city.
Yes, I'm refering to working the unimproved cow.
As for city 3. It has 47 hammers and 5 food.
We could let city 3 not work gems for 1 turn. It would cost us 7 commerce to gain 3 food and 1 hammer. We can do that on turn 59 after priesthood.
I'm not agreeing with your idea about academy and CS. If our capital was good and the good tech rate was because of a lot of commerce in the capital it makes sense to try to leverage that. But here our commerce is spread out so CS and academy won't make as much of a difference. I think we are better off to plan for moving our capital to an AI city.
Yes, I'm refering to working the unimproved cow.
As for city 3. It has 47 hammers and 5 food.
We could let city 3 not work gems for 1 turn. It would cost us 7 commerce to gain 3 food and 1 hammer. We can do that on turn 59 after priesthood.
