SGOTM 21 - Xteam

Thanks for the clarifications! :goodjob:


You may buy several clues in one trade (like 166+200=366 gold in one go) or you may pay for each in a separate payment within the same turn. Provide before and after pics for each transaction. If you have payed for several clues you may ask them all at once, or after each other if you prefer that, no matter how you payed.
I like the idea listed here where, if we paid for multiple hints at once, we only ask for the answer to one hint at a time.


Not allowed
No Begging (at all) from Willem; nor from another AI after buying courtship information from them
No Tech Trading (either direction) with Willem on a turn that you purchase information
So, just to be clear, we can perform other trades or espionage with Willem on a turn where we buy a hint from him, correct? Here are some examples:
1. Sell him a Resource for Gold per Turn
2. Give him a City
3. Receive a tech from Willem via a Steal Tech Espionage Mission (not a tech trade)
4. Pay him a lump sum of Gold to do something, such as switching his State Religion, with the knowledge that this lump sum of Gold will not count torward the purchase of a hint
5. Sell him our World Map for a lump sum of his Gold


@Folket: Do you still plan to continue playing turnsets as the active player?
 
I could go either way. This or when we have currency and buy our first hint would be good times to hand over to the next player.

We should probably play up to currency pretty soon either way.
 
Well, if you're available for playing, then I suggest that you keep playing for now.

I stopped writing my suggestions for the PPP because it started to become harder to predict how events in the real game might alter some of the decisions.

For example, if Confucianism auto-spreads to one of City 3 or City 4, we would be able to have Gems City steal back the Gems Mine on T74, as City 4 would have extra Hammers from Organized Religion in order to complete the Granary without working the Gems Mine.

Plus, after about 5 turns, the tech-trading situation might change.

If you can play out a few more turns, then it will be easier to plan the testing for later turns without writing a bunch of "if Thing 1 happens, do X, but if Thing 2 happens, do Y, but otherwise, do Z" types of suggestions in a PPP.

I think that we're agreed on switching into Confucianism. Waiting a turn after Bureaucracy + Organized Religion, so that we can 3-pop-whip and complete Settler 5 first, seems to be a good way to ensure that our City 5 isn't delayed due to switching into Confucianism.


With any luck, Willem will research Paper next, due to having Civil Service before he picks the tech after Monarchy, and then we can do things like gift him Gold and buy it back from him for our World Map, and steal Paper from him.
 
Jag kan spela ett par rundor om tolv timmar om folk vill.
 
Jag kan spela ett par rundor om tolv timmar om folk vill.
Sure, you playing in about 12 hours from now sounds fine to me. I have no further updates to make to the suggested PPP, unless someone raises a concern.
 
Jag försov mig men är på väg hem nu.
 
T69
Not much happens. _Unless you count the oracle.

T70
Elizabeth is willing to trade meditation. She has not met Isabella, so it means that she has met some other AI. Shall we buy meditation? We have no real use for it in the coming turns. But we can use it to get Monarchy from William using meditation and CoL. We can't by meditation using only monotheism.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG021_BC1200_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Spoiler :
Turn 69, 1240 BC: X-opolis will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: Surfin' Turf can hurry Worker for 2⇴ with 10ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: City 4 has grown to size 2.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for City 4.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: X-opolis will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: X-opolis will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: X-opolis will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: Shaka is the worst enemy of Elizabeth.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: Elizabeth will trade Fish
Turn 69, 1240 BC: Shaka will trade Sheep
Turn 69, 1240 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Isabella
Turn 69, 1240 BC: X-opolis will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: You have trained a Worker in Surfin' Turf. Work has now begun on a Archer.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: Pericles has completed The Oracle!
Turn 69, 1240 BC: You have constructed The Oracle in City 4. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: Isabella adopts Slavery!

Turn 70, 1200 BC: X-opolis has grown to size 6.
Turn 70, 1200 BC: X-opolis has become unhappy.
Turn 70, 1200 BC: X-opolis can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 6ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 14 turns.
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Surfin' Turf can hurry Archer for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 19 turns.
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Elizabeth will trade Meditation
Turn 70, 1200 BC: You have discovered Civil Service!
 
I could trade CoL for meditation turn before William gets Monarchy and then trade meditation and CoL for monarchy. Will that work or is CoL less valuable when two players has it?
 
Elizabeth must have learned that technology on her own. What is really weird is that she does not seem to have learned any other technologies for a very long time.

However, it is good for Elizabeth to have learned Meditation.

Since Elizabeth has Meditation, if she gets a Great Scientist as her Great Person #2, we can sell her Code of Laws at that point in time so that she can Lightbulb Philosophy. We just need to carefully watch the Event Log for the birth of Great People.

If we take Meditation, we will mess up the chance to Lightbulb Education. Optics after we learn Education. Liberalism after we learn Education.

By taking Meditation, our Great Scientist #3 will Lightbulb the undesired Philosophy instead of the desired Education.

So, we do not want to get Meditation. So, we need to decide if we want to Lightbulb Optics Liberalism after Education.


EDIT: Hmmm, I remembered wrong... the Lightbulbing order is:
...
Education
Printing Press (cannot Lightbulb until we learn both Paper and Machinery)
...
Philosophy (cannot Lightbulb if we do not learn Meditation; if we learn Meditation, we must also learn Philosophy, Iron Working, Compass, Metal Casting, and Machinery in order to be able to Lightbulb Optics. If we do not learn Meditation, we can remove Philosophy from that list.)
...
Optics (cannot Lightbulb until we learn Compass and Machinery)
Paper
Astronomy (cannot Lightbulb until we learn both Optics and Calendar)
...
Compass (cannot Lightbulb until we learn Iron Working)
...
Aesthetics
...
Calendar
...
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering (cannot Lightbulb until we learn Machinery)
...
Liberalism
...
Machinery

So, taking Meditation prevents us from Lightbulbing Optics after we learn Education, until after we have learned Philosophy, which may or may not delay Caravels if we can get Philosophy from Elizabeth.

So, do we think that we might want to Lightbulb Optics later? Or, should we unlock Confucian Monasteries?

EDIT: If we learn each of:
Paper, Education, Aesthetics, Calendar (hopefully from a trade), Iron Working (from a trade), Metal Casting (hopefully from a trade), and Compass (hopefully from a trade)
AND we learn BOTH of Meditation + Philosophy
AND we do not learn Machinery, we can Lightbulb (at least part of) Liberalism

After that, if we do learn Machinery, our next Lightbulbs will go toward Printing Press, then Optics.
 
That makes sense to me.
 
T70
Horses looks isolated in a mountain valley. Not 100% certain yet. Our archer also finds a barb warrior.

T71
Declined trade with Victoria. Met Mansa Musa. He also came with a wb from the south. He is also worst enemy of Shaka. It is now even more obvious that there is a route to an other continent in the south.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG021_BC1160_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Spoiler :
Turn 70, 1200 BC: X-opolis has grown to size 6.
Turn 70, 1200 BC: X-opolis has become unhappy.
Turn 70, 1200 BC: X-opolis can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 6ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 14 turns.
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Surfin' Turf can hurry Archer for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 19 turns.
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Elizabeth will trade Meditation
Turn 70, 1200 BC: You have discovered Civil Service!
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Shaka is the worst enemy of Elizabeth.
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Elizabeth will trade Meditation
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Elizabeth will trade Fish
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Shaka will trade Sheep
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Isabella
Turn 70, 1200 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Pericles adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Pericles adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 70, 1200 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 71, 1160 BC: X-opolis can hurry Spy for 1⇴ with 13ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 13 turns.
Turn 71, 1160 BC: Gems can hurry Barracks for 2⇴ with 15ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 71, 1160 BC: Mansa Musa is the worst enemy of Shaka.
Turn 71, 1160 BC: Mansa Musa will trade Iron Working, Meditation
Turn 71, 1160 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Mansa Musa
 

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I suggest the archer fortifies were it stands and kills the barb in self defence.

I suggest warrior moves one step NW.

As for Mansa. He is a good trading partner but will trade away everything we give him. We can leave him behind or we can get iron working for hopefully some metal. But what would be want to give him?
 
Trading with Mansa will make Shaka angry with us but do we even care any more?
 
Here are a few points that could let you continue playing for now... or, do you plan to wait and continue playing at a later time?
1. I edited my message above about Lightbulbing preferences. For now, since we are not yet ready to build Monasteries anywhere, let's continue to not trade for Meditation. On a future turn, we can decide if we want to take Meditation.

Remember that:
1 Library = 2 Culture and +25% Science for 45 Hammers
1 Monastery = 2 Culture and +10% Science for 60 Hammers

+10% Science might be good in our capital, but since we are not yet ready to build such a Monastery, let's wait until a future date to decide.

If, for example, Elizabeth gets a Great Scientist and Lightbulbs Philosophy, then we will want to take Meditation at that time.

Meditation does not unlock any Wonders, so Elizabeth will not refuse to trade us the tech later, so we can simply wait for now and thus do not take the tech in trade now.

Isabella also knows Meditation, so she might trade it to us later if another AI learns Meditation.


2. I hate Mansa Musa. He is my arch-nemesis because he likes to give away all of my techs.

Let's see what he can possibly research next:
Horseback Riding
Metal Casting (which unlocks his Unique Building, and he likes going for this tech)
Compass
Polytheism
Priesthood
Writing

If we were to give him techs like Polytheism or Priesthood, he would get to Feudalism faster, which would be bad.

If we were to give him Writing, he might Demand/Request Alphabet from us and then we would no longer have control over the world's tech-trading situation, as Mansa trades as much as a human player trades, and sometimes even more than a human player trades.

So, for now, I would suggest that we do not trade any techs to Mansa.

But, we can use the same policy for Mansa for Demands/Requests as we have for any other AI: If he Demands/Requests a tech that is not Monarchy, give it to him. If he Demands/Requests Monarchy, say "no"


3. That Barb Warrior is annoying... it might be the last part of the Barb Rush. Or, it might just be a wandering Warrior. It is hard to tell.

So, I would suggest:
T71, 1160 BC
Archer 1: Move 1NE GH (SW + W of the G Cow)
Warrior 2 and Warrior 3: stay in place

T72
If the Barb Warrior has come closer to our Archer by moving 1NE:
Archer 1: stay in place on that GH (SW + W of the G Cow)
Warrior 2: move 1SE GH (1W of the G Cow)
Warrior 3: stay in place

If the Barb Warrior has come closer to our Archer by moving 1E or 1SE:
Archer 1: stay in place on that GH (SW + W of the G Cow)
Warrior 2: stay in place
Warrior 3: stay in place


If the Barb warrior has moved 1N, 1NW, 1W, 1SW, or 1S:
Archer 1: move 1NW Tundra HFor (3W of the G Cow)
Warrior 2: move 1NW GH For
Warrior 3: move 1E G Riv For

Preferably, we will not fight the Barb Warrior with Warrior 2.


4. Shaka has learned Iron Working, but not enough other AIs have learned Iron Working, so Shaka will not trade it to us yet. Mansa has Iron Working, too, but it would be better to get a tech like Iron Working from an AI other than Mansa, since it is a tech that is "easy" to get from the AIs and it is better to use Mansa to get the "tougher" techs, such as Metal Casting

Thus, I would wait to get Iron Working until later, after an AI like Elizabeth learns it.

If Willem starts to tech Iron Working, we will have to decide if we want to let him learn it or if we want to take Iron Working from Mansa and then gift Iron Working to Willem. So, let's wait to see what Willem researches next before we consider taking Iron Working in trade.


5. Willem is one turn away from learning Monarchy, so we can gift Code of Laws to Willem this turn


6. We are connected to a Trade Network with Isabella (3 triangles icon... F4 RESOURCES screen). But, we are not connected to a Trade Network with Mansa. I am not yet sure what this information means.


EDIT: 7. Mansa knows everyone except for Willem. All of the other AIs have met each other, out of the 5 AIs whom we have met.
 
I suggest the archer fortifies were it stands and kills the barb in self defence.
Let's check the odds in a test game.

Warrior vs Archer who is on a Grassland square:
7.3% chance of the Barb Warrior winning

Warrior vs Archer who is on a Grassland Hills square:
0.3% chance of the Barb Warrior winning

Warrior vs Archer who is on a Tundra Hills Forest square:
0.0% chance of the Barb Warrior winning


It would be really unfortunate to lose our only Archer. At a later point in the game, we will lose many Military Units, but losing our only Archer would set back the development of City 3 and thereby could delay our expansion.

Ultimately, it would be nice to get an almost guaranteed win against that Barb Warrior and then promote to the Guerilla I Promotion.

If we are able to earn the Guerilla II Promotion later, we will have a nice Worker-stealing unit.


Trading with Mansa will make Shaka angry with us but do we even care any more?
Well, it is better for Mansa to be Shaka's Worst Enemy than for Elizabeth to be Shaka's Worst Enemy, as we want to keep Open Borders with both Shaka and Elizabeth for now.

I don't think that Mansa would really research anything useful for us if we gave him some of our techs, anyway.

I am hopeful that Elizabeth with go for Calendar due to her Spices.

We will already be learning Currency, Construction, and Music ourselves, so Mansa can't really help with the techs that come after Math or Alphabet. And, we don't want him getting Monarchy.

While there is a chance that he could go for Aesthetics, that chance is pretty small compared to him going for Alphabet, so I would prefer not to give him Writing unless he Demands/Requests Writing.
 
I think that exploring the SW could be an advantage since it looks like we could expand there safely from Shakas advancing army.
 
I think that exploring the SW could be an advantage since it looks like we could expand there safely from Shakas advancing army.
We could do so at the cost of 1 Gold per Turn if we use the two Warriors for spawn-busting while our Archer explores.

We'd have to build another Military Police Warrior later, but doing so shouldn't be a big problem, assuming that we agree that the plan is to try to grow Cities 3 and 4 to Size 6 and then 3-pop-whip a Settler out of each of them.

City 3 will already have an Archer to finish after either the Lighthouse or a Lighthouse + Library (depending upon how soon we will need the Military Police Happiness relative to the timing of being able to complete the Archer), so City 4 would just have to build its own Warrior sometime after Granary -> Research to get Currency, which should be able to work out fine. Or, if the City can't earn enough Hammers, City 3 can also build a Warrior for City 4. We'll see in future testing.


Let me work out a new suggested list of movements for our units.
 
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