Minimum Wage: What's the Other Argument?

Borachio · Apr 24, 2015

Doesn't the employer buy the person's time from the person himself?

And if they've got my time, haven't they got the best of me?

If you work for an agency, then they literally sell your time onto a third party.

To me, this looks more and more like a commodity.

Mise · Apr 24, 2015

Again, this all sounds very figurative. It's a nice metaphor, nothing more. If the concept of "labour" is a legal fiction, then "buying someone's time" is a rhetorical one.

I really just thought I was buying a newspaper.

Timsup2nothin · Apr 24, 2015

Mise said:
Again, this all sounds very figurative. It's a nice metaphor, nothing more. If the concept of "labour" is a legal fiction, then "buying someone's time" is a rhetorical one.

I really just thought I was buying a newspaper.

You are just buying a newspaper. Whoever produced that newspaper made it out of time, almost all of which was time purchased from other people.

Borachio · Apr 24, 2015

Well, you were. But how did you come by the money to buy it?

Mise · Apr 24, 2015

Again, "made it out of time" is purely figurative, like how my mum's curries are made with love.

They made it out of paper and ink.

Mise · Apr 24, 2015

Borachio said:
Well, you were. But how did you come by the money to buy it?

I made spreadsheets for my boss. I got my pickaxe out, went to the time mine, started hacking away at a rich time vein, put the time in my wagon, then used it to make a spreadsheet.

Alternatively, I typed some stuff into a spreadsheet and emailed it to him.

Timsup2nothin · Apr 24, 2015

Mise said:
Again, "made it out of time" is purely figurative, like how my mum's curries are made with love.

They made it out of paper and ink.

It isn't figurative at all, because the 'they' that made it aren't figurative. The paper and ink didn't order themselves into a newspaper. Some large group of people put in the time to make it happen. A newspaper contains very little paper and ink as compared to the time it contains. There are many products that contain no physical substance at all, and consist purely of time.

Timsup2nothin · Apr 24, 2015

Mise said:
I made spreadsheets for my boss. I got my pickaxe out, went to the time mine, started hacking away at a rich time vein, put the time in my wagon, then used it to make a spreadsheet.

Alternatively, I typed some stuff into a spreadsheet and emailed it to him.

Dude, you are the time mine.

Mise · Apr 24, 2015

Timsup2nothin said:
It isn't figurative at all, because the 'they' that made it aren't figurative. The paper and ink didn't order themselves into a newspaper. Some large group of people put in the time to make it happen. A newspaper contains very little paper and ink as compared to the time it contains. There are many products that contain no physical substance at all, and consist purely of time.

Everything you've said here is figurative. You don't "put in the time". That is literally a figure of speech. A newspaper literally contains no time. That is figurative. There are literally no products that consist purely or even partially of time, because time isn't an actual real substance you can put into something. What the hell.

Timsup2nothin said:
Dude, you are the time mine.

...

You're seriously telling me this isn't figurative.

Borachio · Apr 24, 2015

I don't understand, Mr Mise. Would you say that human labour is merely figurative too, then?

I don't know; it could be that time is the only thing that really does exist.

Mise · Apr 24, 2015

Borachio said:
I don't understand, Mr Mise. Would you say that human labour is merely figurative too, then?

I don't know; it could be that time is the only thing that really does exist.

I already said it was a legal fiction!

Borachio · Apr 24, 2015

Oh, right (I'm losing track tbh). A bit like money then? So one legal fiction is used to purchase another?

I'd agree that just about everything can be thought of as fiction. I'm not so sure it really gets us anywhere.

El_Machinae · Apr 24, 2015

Well, the labour is real.

I'm not sure what the value of this argument is. We all have human capital that was created by prior investment. We then rent out this capital for other people's use, so that they can create consumer surplus for themselves.

Mise · Apr 24, 2015

@Borachio: Sure. "Purchasing" is a legal fiction, too. It's the thing we use to describe what happens when one person exchanges something with another person for something else.

Borachio · Apr 24, 2015

El_Machinae said:
I'm not sure what the value of this argument is. We all have human capital that was created by prior investment. We then rent out this capital for other people's use, so that they can create consumer surplus for themselves.

Isn't that the whole point of capitalism? And isn't that exactly why it can be described as exploitative?

Mise · Apr 24, 2015

Borachio said:
Isn't that the whole point of capitalism? And isn't that exactly why it can be described as exploitative?

Only if you take a figurative thing and think that it's a real thing. I.e. if you talk figuratively about employers "buying" employees, and then compare it to the slave traders literally actually buying and selling real life human beings for money.

El_Machinae · Apr 24, 2015

That's not the exploitative part. That's synergy. The exploitation happens because the ownership of the means of production migrates up the wealth ladder, and then the owners of those means of production rent them to the workers.

Borachio · Apr 24, 2015

I don't get it. How can an employer figuratively buy labour?

Mise · Apr 24, 2015

Borachio said:
I don't get it. How can an employer figuratively buy labour?

Sorry, I meant "employers buying employees" (or their time or whatever).

Timsup2nothin · Apr 24, 2015

Mise said:
Everything you've said here is figurative. You don't "put in the time". That is literally a figure of speech. A newspaper literally contains no time. That is figurative. There are literally no products that consist purely or even partially of time, because time isn't an actual real substance you can put into something. What the hell.

If the newspaper contains no time, why are you not just buying a small stack of newsprint and a container of ink for your fifty cents instead?

I just helped my girlfriend hire a tree service. What are they selling? The trees are already here. The equipment they bring with them they will take away at the end of the day. Their product contains no material at all, so what is it?

Minimum Wage: What's the Other Argument?

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