Is it my imagination, or are pests MUCH more of a problem in V31? Early Ancient and I have 10 unhappy due to pests per city over size 6! This makes it almost impossibly to keep the people happy, and pests have no means to address them at all (so far as I can tell). Is the intention that they are totally unaddressible yet have a LARGE (the single largest I think) negative effect on a city (unhappiness mostly, disease effects to a lesser extent)?
Pests
- Thread starter Koshling
- Start date
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
v31 or SVN? Because I recently added 5 new pests to the SVN, so thy could be unbalanced.
SVN, and I only noticed recently, so very likely it is just a not-yet-balanced issue with the new SVN content.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Is there any more info you can tell? I did have them no appear until you city reaches size 6 so initial stating of cities should not be effected.
Yeh, it's the size 6 ones that get hit really hard - double digit in addressable unhappiness in late ancient is a little too much I think.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
Actually, I've been wondering - is it possible to add a new bar, a healthcare bar, like the science bar? Where you can assign money so that the effectiveness of the "healthcare" buildings (i.e Healer's Hut, Apotecary's Shop and so on) and some anti-pollution buildings is increased?
Anything is POSSIBLE. This would be a fair bit of work, and if we did it, we'd want it to be a generic thing that applied to properties (well, COULD apply - probably gated by a Boolean in the property definition so the modders could choose which properties can be invested in). **IF** we ever did that, the impact would be sliders for each enabled property (for granularity reasons I would suggest it get treated a bit like espionage, where you have one top-level slider ['social investments' ??] which puts some income aside, which is then further split in a separate screen for the properties it can apply to (like espionage is split between opposing civs)). Anything invested in a property would boost the positive sources and reduce the negative (for properties with a positive AIWeight, an visa-versa for those with a negative weight).
This would then allow you to use a portion of your income (social investment) to modify the effectiveness of the buildings and units that boost/fight disease, crime, flammability, pollution, ...
Update - the biggest problem with this is the transition from size 5 to size 6 - it's just too much of a wall. I had a city with surplus happiness at size 5 grow and suddenly be SEVEN under water on happiness, so it could work no tiles at all and more or less instantly went into revolt (REV on). It at lest needs to b more progressive (some pests come in at size 4,5, 7 perhaps, instead of all at once at size 6?)
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
This was Never Addressed nor Fixed and still troubles the Mod today as it did almost 3 years ago.
JosEPh
JosEPh
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Actually all it would take for Pest is to stagger the Pests by city size instead of all at City size 6. Simple xml changes that koshling hinted at in this thread. But Hydro was all concerned of which one comes on 1st and which one would be last. Which in hindsight was rather silly and a straight out evasion of addressing the problem, impo.
JosEPh
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I did get Hydro to spread them out and I feel it is mostly fine as it now is.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
The List of Pests and at what City Pop they occur.
City Pop 5: Bedbugs, Fleas, Lice, Mosquitoes, Ticks (Total 5)
City Pop 6: Ants, Aphids, Cockroaches, Flies, Gophers, Locusts, Rats, Slugs (Total 8)
City Pop 7: Moths, Termites (Total 2)
City Pop 13: Crows, Pigeons, Raccoons, Sea Gulls, Wasps (Total 5)
Total Pests that a city "may" have to deal with is 20. But not every City will get all 20 by prereqs and/or terrain features like swamps, flood plains and a few more.
@DH,
15 pests from city pop 5 thru 7 and 8 just for Pop 6 alone is a bit much to absorb when they could be spread a bit more. Then there is the gap from 7 to 13 for the last 5.
In the 1st group for ex. Bedbugs prereq is Cave Dwelling. Bedbugs did not manifest as a problem till early forms of mattresses occurred, like woven cloth bags filled with grass or straw. Don't think too many Cave Dwellers in Prehistoric Era had any form of mattresses to sleep on. Fleas and Ticks on the other hand probably were as they could be on the fur from animal kills used for clothing and cover.
Anyway with out a great deal of effort these could be spaced a bit better and not bunched as bad as they are now.
Tomorrow I'll go thru them in SpecialBuildings_CIV4BuildingsInfos make some revisions and submit them here.
JosEPh
City Pop 5: Bedbugs, Fleas, Lice, Mosquitoes, Ticks (Total 5)
City Pop 6: Ants, Aphids, Cockroaches, Flies, Gophers, Locusts, Rats, Slugs (Total 8)
City Pop 7: Moths, Termites (Total 2)
City Pop 13: Crows, Pigeons, Raccoons, Sea Gulls, Wasps (Total 5)
Total Pests that a city "may" have to deal with is 20. But not every City will get all 20 by prereqs and/or terrain features like swamps, flood plains and a few more.
@DH,
15 pests from city pop 5 thru 7 and 8 just for Pop 6 alone is a bit much to absorb when they could be spread a bit more. Then there is the gap from 7 to 13 for the last 5.
In the 1st group for ex. Bedbugs prereq is Cave Dwelling. Bedbugs did not manifest as a problem till early forms of mattresses occurred, like woven cloth bags filled with grass or straw. Don't think too many Cave Dwellers in Prehistoric Era had any form of mattresses to sleep on. Fleas and Ticks on the other hand probably were as they could be on the fur from animal kills used for clothing and cover.
Anyway with out a great deal of effort these could be spaced a bit better and not bunched as bad as they are now.
Tomorrow I'll go thru them in SpecialBuildings_CIV4BuildingsInfos make some revisions and submit them here.
JosEPh
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
For what its worth Joe, I completely agree with you. One or two pests per pop seems appropriate perhaps but so many at 6 IS far too jarring. However, at least at pop 6 a lot of good buildings open up to help immediately begin addressing the penalties. That I think is the only saving grace of what is otherwise a poor design for pests imo.
I would start introducing pests to a city size 3. Fleas or Lice.
Mosquitoes if near a swamp.
Ticks if near animals.
No more than 2 or 3 per pop increase.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Mosquitoes do have swamp and floodplains as a prereq terrain feature. Most have a tech prereq but some of those are impo too early.
Basically all I'm concerned with is not having 15 pests to deal with thru city sizes 5 thru 7. And many introduce +5 disease too. All deal with giving -1 happiness. So that is why at size 5 and especially size 6 the Whole city goes
with unhappiness and Disease shoots thru the roof too for a double whammy.
I too was think that certain ones could be introduced at size 3 and then maybe skip size 4, in that order so the 20 pests would be split between City sizes 3,5,7,9,11,13 so only 2 city sizes would have to deal with 4 pests and the other 4 only 3. It would still be a pain but not a system shock as it is now.
JosEPh
Basically all I'm concerned with is not having 15 pests to deal with thru city sizes 5 thru 7. And many introduce +5 disease too. All deal with giving -1 happiness. So that is why at size 5 and especially size 6 the Whole city goes
with unhappiness and Disease shoots thru the roof too for a double whammy.I too was think that certain ones could be introduced at size 3 and then maybe skip size 4, in that order so the 20 pests would be split between City sizes 3,5,7,9,11,13 so only 2 city sizes would have to deal with 4 pests and the other 4 only 3. It would still be a pain but not a system shock as it is now.
JosEPh
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
After looking harder at the files for each pest and what Size City pop they appear I have also had to look at which ones give Disease and how much.
As it stands currently:
City Pop 5 Pests (5 total) give +21 Disease (All pests give a -1 happiness malus.)
City Pop 6 Pests (8 total) give + 20 Disease
City Pop 7 Pests (2 total) no disease (a break!)
City Pop13 Pests (5 total) give +20 Disease (and one of these pests Gopher is Not a known major disease carrier, but does structural damage and has maulus for that.)
So you can see that over a short span of city sizes (5,6,7) that you deal with a total of -15 hapiness and an additional malus of +41 disease.
There was a suggestion of starting Pests at city size 3. At 1st I concurred until I looked at each one and compiled a list. Even if only 3 pests came at city size 3 at that stage of the game when you can hit city size 3 the mod does not have the capabilities of dealing with +10 or +15 disease being added. Now most, but not all, Pests have a prereq tech for showing up. Impo some show up at the wrong tech, but overall these Tech Prereqs have minimal effects. A couple have terrain features that trigger them, mosquitoes in particular that have swamps and flood plains are prereqs. (One thing I have yet to figure out is, since mosquitoes are triggered by these 2 terrains, does each tile that contains either of these terrains in a city's Fat X generate the Pest Mosquitoes for an additive or cumulative effect? I hope not.)
It is also my observation (and rather obvious when you look at it) that because 15 of the 20 pests happen when cities reach Pop 5 thru 7 that this is also a reason that you Must have Multiple healers in your cities beyond just what a city of that size would generate in Disease Control from pop without any pests included. Because you can quite simply run out of disease Control buildings.
My proposed changes would group the Pests into 6 groups starting at City Pop 4. The groups would be placed at Pop 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, and 13. The 1st 4 groups would contain 3 pests each with the last 2 with 4 each.
Group 2 and 6 would carry the worst disease burden (3 each, +15 disease hit).
Group 1 and 3 (2 each, +10 disease)
Groups 4 and 5 with 1 each(1 @ +5 and 1 @ +1 disease).
Group 6 as is now actually carries 4 Disease burden (+20) but I plan to remove disease from Gophers to reduce it to 3(+15).
Once I get a copy of the SpecialBuildings_CIV4BuildingsInfos adjusted I'll post a copy here in this thread.
If the Modding team does not like these changes then I will post a copy as a Modmod in that forum section.
I have made it a Modmod.
JosEPh
As it stands currently:
City Pop 5 Pests (5 total) give +21 Disease (All pests give a -1 happiness malus.)
City Pop 6 Pests (8 total) give + 20 Disease
City Pop 7 Pests (2 total) no disease (a break!)
City Pop13 Pests (5 total) give +20 Disease (and one of these pests Gopher is Not a known major disease carrier, but does structural damage and has maulus for that.)
So you can see that over a short span of city sizes (5,6,7) that you deal with a total of -15 hapiness and an additional malus of +41 disease.
There was a suggestion of starting Pests at city size 3. At 1st I concurred until I looked at each one and compiled a list. Even if only 3 pests came at city size 3 at that stage of the game when you can hit city size 3 the mod does not have the capabilities of dealing with +10 or +15 disease being added. Now most, but not all, Pests have a prereq tech for showing up. Impo some show up at the wrong tech, but overall these Tech Prereqs have minimal effects. A couple have terrain features that trigger them, mosquitoes in particular that have swamps and flood plains are prereqs. (One thing I have yet to figure out is, since mosquitoes are triggered by these 2 terrains, does each tile that contains either of these terrains in a city's Fat X generate the Pest Mosquitoes for an additive or cumulative effect? I hope not.)
It is also my observation (and rather obvious when you look at it) that because 15 of the 20 pests happen when cities reach Pop 5 thru 7 that this is also a reason that you Must have Multiple healers in your cities beyond just what a city of that size would generate in Disease Control from pop without any pests included. Because you can quite simply run out of disease Control buildings.
My proposed changes would group the Pests into 6 groups starting at City Pop 4. The groups would be placed at Pop 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, and 13. The 1st 4 groups would contain 3 pests each with the last 2 with 4 each.
Group 2 and 6 would carry the worst disease burden (3 each, +15 disease hit).
Group 1 and 3 (2 each, +10 disease)
Groups 4 and 5 with 1 each(1 @ +5 and 1 @ +1 disease).
Group 6 as is now actually carries 4 Disease burden (+20) but I plan to remove disease from Gophers to reduce it to 3(+15).
I have made it a Modmod.
JosEPh
Similar threads
