SGOTM 22 - Anti-TSR

LowtherCastle said:

ZPV, my calculator with us threatening a Brennus city and having captured Durno with 2 losses shows:

we pay 280
Brennus pays 5790

Is that enough for Tolosa?

That's based on these unofficial stats:
OurWarSuccess: 437
HisWarSuccess: 99
Our Cities: 11
His Cities: 5
Our Pop: 135
His Pop: 80
OurPower: 1526 (T209 stats)
HisPower: 876 (T209 stats and assuming he's still the top AI, which might be wrong)
OurLand: 210 (T209 stats)
HisLand: 118 (T209 stats)

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It's based mainly on population.
The formula (at 100% tile culture) is:
700 + 4 * turns elapsed + 250 * population + 200 * culture level + a bit for resources.

For Caumulodunum, that's 5800 + resources. In other words, close but no cigar.

ZPV said:

It's based mainly on population.
The formula (at 100% tile culture) is:
700 + 4 * turns elapsed + 250 * population + 200 * culture level + a bit for resources.

For Caumulodunum, that's 5800 + resources. In other words, close but no cigar.

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I get 5840 next turn, assuming culture level = 4.

I checked the graphs. Hannibal appears to have 5/4ths Brennus' power, putting Brennus at about 700K instead of 876. Big difference. Right now I get WeOwe/HeOwes 230/5830. Not enough.

Next turn, if we capture Durno, 5 wins, 2 losses, kill his mace near Nibru, build 2 Mil Acads (or 1 MilAcad + 1 chariot to Cuir), complete Steel, upgrade 5 trebs to cannons, complete 5 more cannons (Rome, FC (work mine instead of wine), Bovino, Damascus, Lali), and assuming Brennus' losses+rifle upgrades are a wash, we get (unofficial): 230/6410. Enough, even if Brennus power gains 100K and maybe even if Camulo grows to pop15.

Hm...still not sure how much I like a 10t DoP.

Does Camulo come to us fully operating? What buildings do we keep? But with only 7 tiles in our BFC = 16fpt. What happens to Brennus' units in Camulo?

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ZPV said:

War analysis

After removing Hannibal's best cities, we'll have several fronts we need to fight simultaneously.
Brennus + Gil (mainland)
This is the hardest fight. We probably need 8-10 Cannons + 20 kill units for the initial battle. Then we can split stacks - Grens can lead the cannonless half of the stack through Verlamion and Tolosa, while the Cannons hit Vienne and then Bibracte. Our galleys can then transport some of the slow-movers around to Eridu to catch the Cuirs.

If we don't get a city from Brennus, I don't think we can afford to DoP - just CF.

Nibru is the easiest of our cities to raze of we need to.

Gil islands
We need maybe 6 units per island to be safe. We can build these at the very end of the game - we just need to keep some galleys alive.

Hannibal's iceballs
One Cuir mini-stack is enough for these.

Northern Darius
Southern Darius + Sal
These two areas are an interesting challenge. The slow movers in Lali could be useful for the very northern reaches, if we add a cannon or two and/or upgrade a couple praets. Then our Cuirs can sweep south from Addis and west from Hannibal.
I'm not sure what needs to start from Mecca/Damascus. Mecca would probably build its own mini-stack for Sal's capital.

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I think it's important to dovetail our campaigns with War Weariness. Also, Gondar and Addis Ababa can't draft until Zara is DEAD.

LowtherCastle said:

Info -- T209 WW
Brennus 435
Gil 343
Zara 280
Sal 124
Darius 0
Hannibal 0

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Here is my current recommendation, based on DoP with Brennus. If no DoP(Camulo) with Brennus, then I would recommend quite a different plan, re-DoWing and attacking Brennus asap.

T209-210 War 1: Brennus

T211-??? War 2: Sal+Zara
1. Load all BrEast units onto galleys, land at Baghdad-E for takedown.
2. Mobilize Damascus as needed to defend against Khurasan.
3. Complete fort at Lali-SE to protect galley transport, as needed.
4. Capture/raze Medina with units from Mecca on DoW+0 (must be before Sal is DEAD).

T212-??? War 3: Hannibal Cuirs + cannons. (Save grens for Brennus.)

T(asap) War 4: Darius

T(asap) War 5: Gil Capture all cities by DoW+1. Probably right when Hanni is DEAD.

T220 War 5: Brennus

~T225 Gameover

Some Details
1. Ferry Brennus spy to Shuruppak asap to revolt Gil out of Emanicipation when the time comes. T212 boards empty galley at Shuruppak-4S2W, T213 lands at Shuru-2W. This does not delay T214 landing at Carthage-1W.
2. Hanni spy moves immediately to Carthage-2S2W and fortifies there to tell us what's in Carthage.
3. HC builds research, in case we gift it to Hanni next turn. Do we whip HC down to pop1 first and keep Camulo for a while?
4. My hunch is the a Military Academy at Damascus and 1 more super medic chariot to Cuir would be optimal. Doesn't matter that it's only 3/2XP.
5. Prepare for 22 units in Rome and gift HC as discussed. Looks like Camulo will be a Go!
6. Dye to Darius for 10gpt.
7. Complete farm at Rome-NE?
8. Pigs to Hannibal for 11gpt?
9. MM FC for 100h? (I wonder if there's a truncation between the completion of the treb and the alteration to a cannon.)
10. Revolt Hanni to Castes.
11. Revolt us to Slavery+Nationhood
12. First build a bunch of cannons in the Aksum area for Darius' castle cities. Kill units will be Cuirs+muskets+prats.

Green light!

Good luck!





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I can't believe the free city might actually work. I was only joking when I suggested we think about getting one from him.
HC can be given to Darius, Zara, or Hannibal. If Hannibal, then Darius might just capture it anyway.
If Darius, then we have open borders if that matters.

Can barbs still spawn if we clear out of the neutral zone? Cus then barbs might own HC.

To win, we need to capture HC again (unless barbs own it.) What's the plan there? Whip/chop Camulo to death. Gift Camulo to Zara and raze it? then take HC with 22 units in Rome?

Note: we lose corn.

How would we whip HC down to 1? We can't do scouts any more. We might be able to get it down to size 2 if we don't build research. Or am I missing something?

unrelated thought: If we get Camulo, that might block Brennus from resettling. especially if we get 100 culture.

You're right, we can't whip to pop1. Can't even whip to pop2 unless we put hammers into something or other for a 1whip. We could just give it to Hannibal, who will be in Castes anyway. Then if Darius captures it, it will be in resistance for 4t. Meanwhile, we whip a mess of cannons in Camulo, then get rid of it when we want to DoW Brennus, and take back HC for the corn or to whomever. Howzat?

Means we need 2 new farms in Rome.

A Brennus attack (no DoP) could look like this:

DoW t216

BrEast units: Tolosa attack DoW+1, then Verlamion ->Bibracte (t225?)
- 7 galleys
- 2-3 grens (2 CR3, maybe 1 upgraded C1CR2 praet?)
- 5 cannons (all accuracy)
- 6-7 Cuirs (2-3 more join after Tolosa attack)

main stack: Camu DoW+3 -> Verlamion/Vienne
- 7 cannons (1 FC, 2 Rome, 3 Bovino, 1 HC)
- 15-20 Cuirs
- 0-7 grens from Nibru (How many do we need for Carthage?)
- some praets, muskets for cleanup

mini stack from Nibru: keeps Brennus from settling cities, joins for Vienne or Bibracte attack as needed

Carthage stack: lands near Vienne t221??? (Galley movement back to Gilga's islands could be a bottleneck, especially if some galleys die)

DoW Gilga t225 or t226

Seems a bit slower than LC's DoP plan. Micro this turn should be mostly compatible, exept for the BrEast units. They would have to heal 1 turn before they jump back on the galleys. Sal+Zara attack date in the DoP plan would be t212 assuming we want to attack Baghdad on DoW+1.

More Brennus DoP(Camulo) Analysis

My testing shows that we keep all buildings in Camulo, including:
barracks
forge
walls
castle 1
courthouse
theatre 3
Globe Theatre 6
Christian monastery 2
Christian temple 1
granary
library 2
grocer
bank
aqueduct

Brennus units simply teleport out by normal rules.

Camulo has 2-3 BFC chops and 2 more in the next ring.

So it will produce at least 15 per turn and could expand its borders in 7t. It will have 50% production bonus and 5XP on units. Camulo can't feed itself on T+0 and can feed pop8 on T+1. Best solution I see is to starve 1t and 2whip a cannon, 3 drywhip a CRII mace(upgrade), putting us at pop8. Then use the chops and 2whips to squeeze 5 more cannons out.

If we DoW Brennus on T+0, we should be able to capture Vienne and Tolosa on T+1, and Bibrachte and Verlamion on T+4 if we have enough kill units, right? Plus we have to keep an eye out for new settlements, as always.

Pollina said:

- 0-7 grens from Nibru (How many do we need for Carthage?)

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I would say no grens for Carthage. Waste of their 50% bonus against rifles. The galley stack going from Nibru to Carthage can add Cuirs from the Nemet area along the way.

on the 5 accuracy cannons. Great solution.

Caumulo doesn't have Hinduism, so there's no +2XP from Theocracy.
Neither does Nibru.
We could consider revolting back to Christianity.

@Pollina: I like having the extra cannons and grens for Brennus. Good ideas.
Green light from me.

ZPV said:

Caumulo doesn't have Hinduism, so there's no +2XP from Theocracy.
Neither does Nibru.
We could consider revolting back to Christianity.

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Good point. I'd stay in Hindu. Too many cities don't have Christ, in particular Damascus. The cannons from Camulo, if we get it, could be suiciders.

PPP t209-? (updated)

Civics:
- adopt Slavery and Nationhood

Tech & Espionage:
- slider as needed to finish Steel in 1t, set Aksum, Lali, Mecca to build units again. HC builds research
- ~30% EP slider on Hannibal for city visibility
- make sure we have enough gold for cannon upgrades in Nibru (400g)
- steal Optics next turn (30%)? Flip Hanni to Caste.
- move spies towards HaGift and DaGift this turn, keep scouting enemy territory if we don't pop a GSpy.
- Hanni spy peeks into Carthage, Brennus spy sails to Gilga's closest island city.

Brennus War:
- move injured units into our culture to heal
- t210: attack and raze Durnovaria
- see if Brennus will give us a city for DoP while we threaten one of his cities (Tolosa)
- if he will: move 22 defenders into Rome, give HC to Hannibal Darius, DoP for city
- else: DoP for 400+ gold or CF? (What's our price for DoP?)
- injured units east of Bibracte heal, healthy units pillage. Promote 1 cuir with Medic I? Leave units there until we DoW Brennus again (no DoP) or sail them over to Baghdad (DoP)

Hanni War:
- galleys hide in Nibru t209
- upgrade 5 trebs to cannons for 400g
- whip caravel, reaches galley stack on t213
- attach Rome GG to 13 XP cuir and xp bomb 3-4 other units? attach GG to chariot and upgrade
- DoW t213?: land near Carthage with 5 cannons, 7 grenadiers, 4 or 6 11 cuirs
- capture Carthage, stack sails back towards Brennusland (maybe)
- Healed units near Rome/Bovino: Focus on Sardis (DoW+0) (+maybe Sicca) - Kerkouane (DoW+1) - Hadr - Utica. (Mostly) ignore western cities that won't give much capture gold anyway.

Other wars
follow this plan (DoP with Brennus) or this plan (no DoP)

Cities:
Rome: builds 2-3 cannons, then cuirs
Bovino: 3 cannons
FC: cannon, cuirs
Nibru: max culture, rax, whip caravel, units
Damascus: gets military academy, builds 2 cannons, then cuirs
Mecca: cannon, spy (to look for Sal's stack), then units
Lali: 2 cannons, cuirs
Aksum: galley, units
Other: build research as needed this turn, then units

(build more spies if we pop a GSpy?)

I can start playing in about an hour.

spy can't get to an island city without a caravel which can go in w/o OB.

Right. Should I send him to Eridu then? Or keep him around Bibracte?

Camulo could probably get about 40 the first turn when we build culture+something (still in golden age) on 210.
Then maybe 2t of ~15
Then on the 4th turn, probably build culture again if it breaks 100.

So that would block Brennus from resettling and probably more importantly allow 3rd ring chops earlier. So plan workers for that.

Consider a quick workshop south of Camulo if food permits.

Oh snap! we get 2nd gems!!! That is the only reason I see for keeping Zara alive (so Sal won't re-settle and instantly take gems. We should get Zara out of there so we can draft.

OMG, Zara revolted, so all his LBs are at 3.0/6 and the city is 0%, no hill.

We can take that city with our pike and LB.

Try and pillage the road on the Medina tile to maybe delay resettling 1t.

Oops, Zara has a defensive pact, so we have to be ready for Sal too. I suppose Zara can wait a couple turns. Revolt lasts for a while.

How much of a priority are Zara/Sal in a no DoP scenario? (BrEast units attack Tolosa instead of Baghdad) I don't think we'd have the units in place to take Sal out quickly.