Text of the proposed Iraqi constitution.

Little Raven said:
This doesn't seem to have the Bill of Rights in it...but they may still be working on that. Anyway, looking over what's available...
Keep in mind, the American consitution didn't have a Bill of Rights in it when it was passed either. Those were all amendments, and I beleive they were purposely left out of the original constitution so that it would get passed more easily, and be debated later...much as the Iraqis are doing now.
But here's the real kicker.(emphasis mine)
But did you see the one after:
The Iraqi Constitution said:
The central government administers oil and gas extracted from current wells, along with governments of the producing regions and provinces, on the condition that revenues are distributed in a way that suits population distribution around the country.
Now I'm not sure what exactly this means, since they mention "from current wells". Does that mean that the profits from all current wells will be distributed equally, for the moment? Or indefinitely? And if definitely, that means that only new oil wells will profit the region and not the state?

And, you ask how Islamic law and democratic law co-exist? Well, they can in a state like Iraq, where Islamic law is (apparently) democratically supported. (Could Islamic law and egalitarian law co-exist? Perhaps not.)

The thing we all have to remember is that the Iraqis are writing this. Democracy in action. It works best with smart people with sane ideals.
 
cgannon64 said:
Now I'm not sure what exactly this means, since they mention "from current wells". Does that mean that the profits from all current wells will be distributed equally, for the moment? Or indefinitely? And if definitely, that means that only new oil wells will profit the region and not the state?

The way I heard it on NPR, that was the idea: existing wells' profits will be distributed nationally. New wells' profits will belong to the region where it is drilled.
 
Bozo Erectus said:
A flawed constitution for an imaginary country that anyway will vanish in a puff of smoke a few months after the last American leaves:sleep:

Oh like the Japanese written Constitution? I think alot of Iraqis would disagree with that term of it being an imaginary country, Iraq is an artificial state, but then so is the US, the UK, Russia, Australia and many others, does that have to equate with it splitting up?

All of this won't be nothing but words. Instability there is already cronical. FIRST, I doubt that the Iraqi state would barely survive without the Americans. Now that Saddam Hussein's Iron Will has vanquished, then the various religious and ethnical factions there will probably start a civil war and then there will be separated countries or a new dictator ruling by martial law. If the parliament survives, then I doubt that any of the articles of this Constitution would be strictly obeyed. It's not the same thing as with the US in 1787. Most of the Iraqis are ignorant and don't know what the word "democracy" means. There won't be any "democracy" at all, in the end.

Multi confessional states can succeed, you know, like India, Germany, Russia they just need a democratic framework which secures their rights. Lebanon is a good example, even after a devastating civil war, and syrian occupation, you didn't see parts of Lebanon splitting up and declaring themselves independent because of religious and sectarian lines. Frankly I get the perception here that you all want Iraq to become the next Yugoslavia all in order to prove Bush and the Americans wrong. Get a grip.

I hate to break it to you, but in 1787 not many people in the states either knew what the meaning of democracy was either. That's why you have electoral colleges, who was that person again who compared democracy to mob rule? You get the idea.
 
Ayatollah So said:
The way I heard it on NPR, that was the idea: existing wells' profits will be distributed nationally. New wells' profits will belong to the region where it is drilled.
Hooray for compromise! I assume the new wells will be paid for by the individual regions?

Sounds like the Iraqis figured out how to solve that issue. Onto the next! :D
 
cgannon64 said:
Keep in mind, the American consitution didn't have a Bill of Rights in it when it was passed either. Those were all amendments, and I beleive they were purposely left out of the original constitution so that it would get passed more easily, and be debated later...much as the Iraqis are doing now.
But we don't want Iraq to follow in our footsteps, now do we? If you recall, certain tough issues about how our Constitution was to be interpreted ultimately required a rather nasty Civil War to resolve, didn't they? Isn't this what we are trying to avoid in Iraq?
And, you ask how Islamic law and democratic law co-exist? Well, they can in a state like Iraq, where Islamic law is (apparently) democratically supported. (Could Islamic law and egalitarian law co-exist? Perhaps not.)
No, I asked what a phrase like 'Democratic standards' means, particularly in a nation that has no history of democracy? For instance, should Iraqi courts consider American laws as being demonstrative of 'democratic standards' when determining if a law is constitutional? Though actually, we aren't a democracy, so do we count? Is there any functioning nation that is really a democracy? Or does 'democracy' encompass any form of representative government? Does Turkmenistan qualify under that standard?

Obviously, language is an imperfect medium, and everything ultimately requires a certain degree of interpretation. But a phrase like 'democratic standards' is so utterly vague as to meaningless. How is a judge supposed to interpret something like that?
The thing we all have to remember is that the Iraqis are writing this. Democracy in action. It works best with smart people with sane ideals.
Um…yay? Look, I like democracy as much as the next guy, but it's not a magic word that makes problems go away. Democracies fail all the time. And I think we all agree that this particular democracy is going to have a harder time of it than most, at least for a while.
Sounds like the Iraqis figured out how to solve that issue. Onto the next!
This is obviously some new definition of the word 'solve' that I was previously unaware of.

How much do you want to bet that if such a compromise goes through, regions will begin dismantling existing wells as quickly as they can afford to and replacing them with new ones? What incentive would they have to refrain from doing so?

Meanwhile, according to Dr. Raja Kuzai, Iraq's future is set.
"This is the future of the new Iraqi government - it will be in the hands of the clerics," said Dr. Raja Kuzai, a secular Shiite member of the Assembly. "I wanted Iraqi women to be free, to be able to talk freely and to able to move around."

"I am not going to stay here," said Dr. Kuzai, an obstetrician and women's leader who met President Bush in the White House in November 2003.
You may remember Dr. Kuzai from her past appearances with President Bush. She used to be a big Bush cheerleader.
PRESIDENT BUSH: I want to thank my friend, Dr. Raja Khuzai, who's with us today. This is the third time we have met. The first time we met, she walked into the Oval Office -- let's see, was it the first time? It was the first time. The door opened up. She said, "My liberator," and burst out in tears -- (laughter) -- and so did I. (Applause.)

Dr. Khuzai also was there to have Thanksgiving dinner with our troops. And it turned out to be me, as well. Of course, I didn't tell her I was coming. (Laughter.) But I appreciate that, and now she's here again. I want to thank you, Doctor, for your hard work on the writing of the basic law for your people. You have stood fast, you have stood strong. Like me, you've got liberty etched in your heart, and you're not going to yield. And you are doing a great job and we're proud to have you back. Thanks for coming. (Applause.)
Truth hurts, I guess.
 
Little Raven said:
But we don't want Iraq to follow in our footsteps, now do we? If you recall, certain tough issues about how our Constitution was to be interpreted ultimately required a rather nasty Civil War to resolve, didn't they? Isn't this what we are trying to avoid in Iraq?
Avoiding tough issues for the moment won't necessarily lead to civil war, and confronting tough issues immediately won't necessarily lead to solutions.
No, I asked what a phrase like 'Democratic standards' means, particularly in a nation that has no history of democracy? For instance, should Iraqi courts consider American laws as being demonstrative of 'democratic standards' when determining if a law is constitutional? Though actually, we aren't a democracy, so do we count? Is there any functioning nation that is really a democracy? Or does 'democracy' encompass any form of representative government? Does Turkmenistan qualify under that standard?
Yes, it is vague, but it doesn't seem life-threateningly so. It would take a particularly far-out kind of weirdo to interpret "democratic law" in an anti-democratic way. Are there far-out weirdos in Iraq? Surely. Do we have any reason to assume they exist and will run rampant and unchecked on the court? No...
Um…yay? Look, I like democracy as much as the next guy, but it's not a magic word that makes problems go away. Democracies fail all the time. And I think we all agree that this particular democracy is going to have a harder time of it than most, at least for a while.
And I agree that democracy does not always work. But is there any other idea l that is better? I suppose democracy combined with secularlism and our own ideals - but if we brought those to Iraq it would be an imposition.
How much do you want to bet that if such a compromise goes through, regions will begin dismantling existing wells as quickly as they can afford to and replacing them with new ones? What incentive would they have to refrain from doing so?
What incentive would they have to do so, and what evidence do you have to think they would? Is Iraq filled with a limitless supply of oil, that they can abandon wells at a whim? (Oh - and can you suggest a better compromise?)
 
The idea to have powerful clerics sounds a bit like the system Iran has and is worrying. However, what's important is that the clerics can't stop candidates to run for election and that the clerics isn't appointed by themselves, but by elections or the Parliament. If so, they will function as a second house just like in many democracies.
 
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