Red Storm Rising - World War II on the Eastern Front

Paasky - I am at work right now but will PM it asap when I get home. I will inlcude the terrain pics and XML files as I use marshes in the game and dont want you wasting time breaking the links on the map. Thanks hugely for taking the time to look at it.

If worse comes to worse, the other idea I have is changing half of the terrain (subject to terrain type) to tundra and making it represent the rasputitsa seasons before and after the snow....this way it is less processing time. I am also considering adding two snow types so I can change the whole map to snow and keep a track of the grass and plains terrain seperately when the map is white. If only the code could run fast, the possibilities would be endless

Duke176 - Right now vehciles stop moving if the oil runs out, but I fully agree with your suggestion....an empty vehicle is a useless vehicle....but then again some may argue that when the German tanks ran out of fuel, they kept fighting as static defenses until they ran out of ammo and finally would destroy the vehicle when abandoning it. Maybe a negative defense modifier would be good to represent that fact that other units could outmanouver the vehicle and destroy it more easily

If come up with anything iteresting let me know.

Here is a list of improvements/buildings that I want to include in the scenario if in anyone is interested making them

Sevastopol battery guns (this can also be used in other Soviet cities game wise.)
http://alainlecomte.free.fr/2603.jpg

Dragon's Teeth
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Westwall01.jpg/275px-Westwall01.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Westwall03.jpg/180px-Westwall03.jpg

Brest Fortress
http://www.brest.by/ct/page5e.html

Trenches (I know there is some already in ww2 mods but variation in design to look like below link)
http://www.saunalahti.fi/veijju/maa/mf00.html

Hedgehog/Sandbag positions
I cant find a good photo but a round sandbag emplacement is good as well


Also I am in need of infantry for the following countries if anyone has them on their to-do list:

Swedish Infantry (right now I will be recycling the Finnish Infantry for Sweden as well)

Finnish/Soviet ski troops
http://catallarchy.net/blog/wp-content/images/Finn_ski_troops.jpg
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/geronimo/geronimo_red_army_paratroopers.jpg

Soviet winter uniform (1st troop on left in link)
http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/Pic50-Soviet.gif)

As for running completely out of oil, I think this is hard to do in practice without being isolated. Units on the attack consume far more than those defending, so if supplies run low the offensive would be stopped and the army would go back into stockpile mode. There would always be petrol reserves around.

So I think not moving is a good representation already, and nothing more needs to be done, unless you want to consider the isolated case, but I don't see how isolation could even be determined in civIV

I think Dukes mod suggestion was giving the unit a defence penalty if it runs out of fuel. The only way I can think of that this could be done is via his SDK modifications because of the reason you pointed out that the game does not represent isolation or defenceless positions.

It does via python

I had a system of checking if a unit was flanked in the civ4 version of sf&b, which worked. *Searches* Dammit, I've deleted the picture for it.
Anyway, here's my orig post:
Oh, here is a new combat model addition that might be possible:

Each square represents a square in civ. The amount of units per square doesn't matter, as each stack causes the same 15% bonus.

This means that if you (attacker) have 1 stack of 10 units, and the has 3 stacks of 2 units, in a line, you have a disadvantage (+15% or +30% for the defender) because they are more scatterd (ie: can surround you). And before you say: "A larger force can't be surrounded!", go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae

Simple, yet very effective.

My only concern with flanking is that the scale of the map is very hard to actual represent it. In the modern world formation combat is hard to pat down compared to the rank and file of Napoleanic Era....however ....you got me thinking, is there a way to write an event that simulates the 6th Army being surrounded in Stalingrad.

Technically, if you could get an area completely cut off...including the ocean tiles (see my map I PM you) then it would be excellent. Maybe we give the German army -20% defense bonus and +10% collateral damage each turn they are completely surrounded.

Check your PM

Btw, your map is truly Huge! I mean damn! I hope you could do a smaller, 1/2 or even 1/4 map some day, as I am sure the turn times are going to be terrible. Also, with a map that big, I suggest you turn the time to weeks. Actually, Days would be more appropriate. Otherwise you'll need the Germans to have atleast 20 movement points, to actually get to Moscow in the 3-4 months (?) it took them

I found a python command:
CyCity(): BOOL isTradeRoute(PlayerType eIndex). I think it checks the city if it has a trade route to that player's capital, or something like that. Which could make the supply-line code very easy to do

EDIT: Also, found this:
CyUnit(): VOID changeDamage(INT iChange, PlayerType ePlayer). I don't know what the player is doing there, but I assume it changes the damage the unit has (each unit has 100 hp). So, every turn, if any unit is out of supply, lower HP's by 10, or 5. Then again, it only works in cities...

Believe me...thats the third version of the map and I consider that cut down. Technically its a 'large' size map. I am planning on making the turns weeks and giving the units appropriate movement points to get to their objectives on time.

I envision this scenario as an epic game where it will take you atleast a good week or two to finish it from start to end. Obviously I am aiming for lots of depth.

Also, yes the turn times do concern me...but lets get to the finish line and then see if a new map should be created....anything smaller does not do justice to a campaign this size

With relation to the encirclement code, what happens if the unit is not in the city and further more it may not work given that the map could be a mess in relation to capture cities having no roads leading to capitals for both Germans and Soviets, so the code may not work as expected.

Hopefully there is a way

Ok...just to update everyone on where I am up to.

I have developed a 'very very' rough tech tree thus far. This tree has been developed by cross referencing events, weaponry availability, dates and so forth for each tech level. I wont go into too much detail on the techs but some are obvious whilst others relate specifally to certain weapons.

The Germans and Soviets also have 'private' tech trees which make available only their weapons and don't force other civs to waste time researching enemy technologies not relevent to their historic paths. I have yet to start the Finnish, Swedish or Allied private tech trees.

The techs in red are disabled 'restrictive' techs that unlock the remaining tech-tree over time. This prevents civs finding techs to better weaponry too soon and forces the the civ to use whats available historically.

There will also be a completely disabled private tech tree that has actual events. These events will unlock on the right dates and provide what every is necessary to simulate the event on the map (i.e Operation Blue will start the battle for the Caucasus and Stalingrad). The loose techs floating at the top are some of the events half completed.

Please keep in mind that the this tech-tree is no where near complete yet

1) I'm already considering - after closing this - the chance of expading the project to WWII total World. - What do oyu think about it?

I'm also studying some further future dev projects like:

- Rebellions/Terrorism: in spite of having, like in that great mod that is revolution mod, new civs dividing from your - basing system not on python but on SDK - I would create a sort of 3rd party like a new civ without personal "state" but with units. Taking idea from terrorist cells formation, and it's social roots, I would create some units that reached an high level of unhappyness in cityes appear there and become unit of a new random leader (Bin Landen - if it happens in a Muslim state for ex.). Those would be like spyes: invisible and able to make more missions like sabotations, explosives attacks.... with a big implementation of this New Player - the Leader - as new part of International Picture.

- U.N. peacekeeping missions (still to be defined in my mind... )

- Some international happenings like ColdWar (so in the 1946-1950 a progressive decrease of relations between US and URSS).....

Anyway these parts for FUUUUUTURE.

Duke, hopefully only better things arise from this and many other projects pushing the boundry of game mechanics

I would bet my money that quite a few people would jump at the chance to include the features you mention into a post-ww2 era scenario. I know that someone is doing one right now but I dont know off the top of my head who it is

At the rate that the ideas are coming with you, Paasky and primardial stew, this scenario may turn out to be as close to representing the eastern front as possibly can using civ 4.

If your willing to be the SDK brains for this project then it would be an honour as I will need to do quite a lot of things that the current game does not allow.

Examples:
- Special partisan operations (similar to those you mentioned).
- The movement of industries to the Ural region...currently had planned to do this via using refugees and special workers that move to the region and then add to a city. Once the city hits a certain size, it gets a free factory representing the movement to that city via the refugees and workers.
- Modifying the unit values for winter versus summer combat.

EDIT: Some of these things probably can be done with python but I dont know much in that area yet

I thank you for the offer, but I don't feel myself at the lvl to assume brain position for SDK develope. I'm not a programmer and I never take a look to SDK since 11/2006, so everything I succed in it's just a metter of trying, retrying, retrying, studying, checking other threads and similar. So I can guess I have a lot of chance to reach for sure a good amatorial lvl but nothing more (like AI I think it's quite harder to let the game work best with new devs)... anyway I keep on???!!?? TRYING

Anyway I want to make my part for this project.
About your ideas DEV.

Examples:
- Special partisan operations (similar to those you mentioned).
- The movement of industries to the Ural region...currently had planned to do this via using refugees and special workers that move to the region and then add to a city. Once the city hits a certain size, it gets a free factory representing the movement to that city via the refugees and workers.
- Modifying the unit values for winter versus summer combat.

Click to expand...

- Special Partisan Operations: all right, here I would make it really really easier than my idea of Terrorism; the reason is this: terrorists are more indipendent formations than the partisans that most of the times were fighting to free their homeland. More than this Terrorism is more a global metter, partisan were strictly related to local prbs and situations. So 2 ways: or we make partisan appearing inside an enemy state where there are .... (various chances for ex. unhappyness) and they fight like spyes for one of the States that are enemies of your; or we make them fight as your units but in the moment they get a city (so no spy missions), the game transfert it to the old player conquered.

- Industrial moves: I would reppresent it in this way. When you wish you can create a Worker called Technician Refugee that at creation make the factory disappearing from old city and when it fuse with the new city creates automatically and freely a new factory in the new one. (we simply add a MISSION to a certain Unit)

- Season fighting / Movement modds: I thought in pythin winter season mod there were these changes; anyway I think it would be quite easy to make it. Onfight/OnMove (functions called like these for movements and fights) we say: if seasoncheck() = isSummer() -> do something or nothing
if seasoncheck() = isWinter() -> iNewMaxMoves=getMaxMoves()/3
-> iNewFightAttributs=getMaxPower()/3

Names are similar to these and functions really a lot more complex, so when I say "it's easy" just hit my head with baseball mace ; anyway we can TRY!

Just woke up so my train of thought is a bit dusty still

I tell you....the one thing I love about this forum is the fact that you can get 40 view over night on a thread and yet not a single new person post anything. I guess we have a lot of shy posters around this place

Duke, I like what you have suggested....also I can understand at this stage if your uncomfortable with being the SDK guru....my door is always open so no rush

- Special Partisan Operations: all right, here I would make it really really easier than my idea of Terrorism; the reason is this: terrorists are more indipendent formations than the partisans that most of the times were fighting to free their homeland. More than this Terrorism is more a global metter, partisan were strictly related to local prbs and situations. So 2 ways: or we make partisan appearing inside an enemy state where there are .... (various chances for ex. unhappyness) and they fight like spyes for one of the States that are enemies of your; or we make them fight as your units but in the moment they get a city (so no spy missions), the game transfert it to the old player conquered.

Click to expand...

The partisan operations will be divided into several methods:
1. Automatically generated when a Soviet city is captured the first time only. No respawning if cities swap hands several times.
2. When population size and unhappiness hits a certain threshold. Obviously the axis civs can counter this by stationing more units in the cities.
3. Historical spawning in Yugoslavia and pripet marshes.
4. Additional bonus from the 'Central Partisan Front' wonder.

The missions would have to be sabotage production (loss of city hammers), sabotage supplies (loss of city food), pillage routes only (road & railroad), destroy aircraft (new mission aimed at aircraft in cities), sabotage infrastructure (buildings).

Their movement would be flat across all terrain to represent their use of terrain and they would be invisible to all units except foot units.

- Industrial moves: I would reppresent it in this way. When you wish you can create a Worker called Technician Refugee that at creation make the factory disappearing from old city and when it fuse with the new city creates automatically and freely a new factory in the new one. (we simply add a MISSION to a certain Unit)

Click to expand...

Exactly what I thought when I went to bed. Have a unique number of refugees created when a factory is sold from old city and then have them add to new city and when enough have accumilated....lets say each refugess had a value of 20 and at 100 (5 of them) the new city gets the free factory. Can some special counter be made in SDK to give them a factory build value that can be set in XML and is tracked globally for cities?

The building of the factory (using the values) would have to be done via a new mission as you mention.

- Season fighting / Movement modds: I thought in pythin winter season mod there were these changes; anyway I think it would be quite easy to make it. Onfight/OnMove (functions called like these for movements and fights) we say: if seasoncheck() = isSummer() -> do something or nothing
if seasoncheck() = isWinter() -> iNewMaxMoves=getMaxMoves()/3
-> iNewFightAttributs=getMaxPower()/3

Click to expand...

The seasons code is getting there slowly (thanks for looking at it Paasky ) and when it is complete then I gather we would be able to simply check a global flag to see what season it is and if winter we simply apply a modifier to movement and attack/defense.

Would it be a good idea to add a second oil counter XML tag that indicated how much oil units use in winter as this would be good in representing the Germans wasting petrol in running motors so they dont freeze and also infantry using fuel for fires and so on

I will continue to work on the tech tree today and hopefully have something finished by end of weekend so I can start assigning the actual units and buildings to the techs.

Duke176 said:

I thank you for the offer, but I don't feel myself at the lvl to assume brain position for SDK develope.

Click to expand...

Duke176 <--- local expert

Duke176 said:

- Industrial moves: I would reppresent it in this way. When you wish you can create a Worker called Technician Refugee that at creation make the factory disappearing from old city and when it fuse with the new city creates automatically and freely a new factory in the new one. (we simply add a MISSION to a certain Unit)

Click to expand...

Maybe simpler (non-SDK) would be to split the production of the factory into 4 parts. So instead of 1 building there are 4 smaller ones which give production = a normal factory. The buildings could be:

metal fabrication
assembly plant
chemical plant
armament shop

Those technical workers could build any of them as their special building (just like a prophet can build any of the holy buildings). Building the technical worker would destroy an existing normal factory, which is easily done in python. The rest is just xml.

It's 4 (or whatever) parts to slow the transfer progress.

Ok, maybe that's not simpler Just make the technical worker a national unit and only allow 1 of them.


> weather effects

Don't forget about the terrible mud! The winter of 41 was very hard on the Germans since few units had the appropriate equipment. But in the other winters it wasn't so desperate of a problem. Indeed it was a relief when the ground froze since unit's could move again. Operation Typhoon began after the ground froze IIRC.

For mud maybe divide movement such that 1-2 plots can be traversed, and winter (except the 1st for the Germans) should be double that. Something like that.

It would be a cool option for the player to either choose (via an .ini file setting) either historical, or random weather. For random weather each month has defined probabilities of certain weather types.


> partisans

1 historical note on partisans is that although they were officially supported, IIRC they were all killed either during or shortly after the war. So if they manage to get back into friendly territory they should be destroyed.


Another minor detail to add historical flavor is the handling of the Ukranians. There were plenty of anti-Russians among them, so they should give a small benefit to the Axis. They did raise some combat units for the Axis during the war.

Maybe simpler (non-SDK) would be to split the production of the factory into 4 parts. So instead of 1 building there are 4 smaller ones which give production = a normal factory. The buildings could be:

metal fabrication
assembly plant
chemical plant
armament shop

Those technical workers could build any of them as their special building (just like a prophet can build any of the holy buildings). Building the technical worker would destroy an existing normal factory, which is easily done in python. The rest is just xml.

It's 4 (or whatever) parts to slow the transfer progress.

Click to expand...

Something along these lines is actually not a bad idea but it would be too long winded for some people just to get military production going.

Ok, maybe that's not simpler Just make the technical worker a national unit and only allow 1 of them.

Click to expand...

This or the refugee way are probably the fastest game wise...but I am really interested in getting that extra production factor into the scenario if it is possible

> weather effects

Don't forget about the terrible mud! The winter of 41 was very hard on the Germans since few units had the appropriate equipment. But in the other winters it wasn't so desperate of a problem. Indeed it was a relief when the ground froze since unit's could move again. Operation Typhoon began after the ground froze IIRC.

For mud maybe divide movement such that 1-2 plots can be traversed, and winter (except the 1st for the Germans) should be double that. Something like that.

It would be a cool option for the player to either choose (via an .ini file setting) either historical, or random weather. For random weather each month has defined probabilities of certain weather types.

Click to expand...

I am a purist when it comes to historic scenarios so I would have to rule out the random factor as there is enough to keep one busy with the AI and when your plans dont work. However, one of the things I am interested in trying (assuming the season code works correctly) is to have a muddy season before and after the winter weather.

> partisans

1 historical note on partisans is that although they were officially supported, IIRC they were all killed either during or shortly after the war. So if they manage to get back into friendly territory they should be destroyed.

Click to expand...

I dont want to sound like a wikipedia narc but.....what is your source for this information? I have never read anything to this extent.

Another minor detail to add historical flavor is the handling of the Ukranians. There were plenty of anti-Russians among them, so they should give a small benefit to the Axis. They did raise some combat units for the Axis during the war.

Click to expand...

Thats actually a good idea....maybe we should add some Ukrainian partisans on the German side through events.

If you come up with an ingenious way of getting partisans (else than spawning barb units), please tell me

The Soviet partisans would be controlled by the Soviets and Ukrainians by the Germans from how I envision it.

As for the events, I made mention a few posts above to Duke about them.

Is there a problem doing htis that I am not aware of with doing partisans or is your question more about have players who get free partisans but use them as front line infantry.

If it is the later then I would say some major balance issues would need to be addressed to ensure they are used for these purposes. Also I have the pripet marshes on my map which is well forested and a nice breading ground for resistance

Also general update for anyone who is interested, I am currently creating buttons for all the buildings so I am busy at getting the graphic side finished.

Another quick update.

Im still working on buttons and have almost finished all the current buildings.

Here is a quick preview of some of the buttons I have created for the scenario.

Feedback appreciated

Wow, those look great. The black-and-white ones you had with the su-tanks were really messy, but those look very nice.

Thanks Paasky

The promo ones I posted where converted and saved via MS Paint so they came up a bit crappy....but they look betterin their original DDS format. I stuck with B&W for the promos as it is impossible to find color pictures of eastern front fighting where as buildings can be scavaged from rare color photos and artwork.

Next I will start the units and I am still working out what to do with the consistancy factor.