Many Leaders Game 2 - Sword Training

Ozbenno said:
As I harked upon in the analysis post, FeedBack and TriviAl have really used their Philosophical trait to the max, FeedBack by bulbing many important techs (Philosophy and Education) and TriviAl by having countless Golden Ages. I would highly recommend uploading TriviAl's save if you're unsure on how to run a Specialist Economy. :goodjob:
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You forgot about my Engineering bulb with the GE. Actually, I was kinda wondering if this was huge :smoke: or something... What do you guys think?

Ozbenno said:
TriviAl has become the wonder hog with 8, followed by azaris on 7. The Oracle is the most favoured wonder with 11, with Great Library and Colossus :)confused:) on 7.
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As someone said, the Colossus gives GM points. A GM is always a good Great Person to get... Along with the Great Lighthouse, it's the GM combo for the starting eras... I wanted the GM and got the GE from my copper city at about 2% odds...

Ozbenno said:
Espionage hasn't really played too much a part yet. Only one tech has been stolen so far (by FeedBack) but ChrTh has had some bad luck. Hopefully, we see some action on this front soon. I'm thinking it may be more useful at higher levels.
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I'm thinking about this too. Now that we're able to make more spy points, the AI goes behind too much... These cheap techs are good to steal, as they only take slots on the WFYABTA limit. But the good ones... Well.. Those should be more easily traded than stolen...

Ozbenno said:
Also interesting is the quests. Both Conroe and myself diverted themselves from their prefered research/development paths to chase a quest. Hopefully it is worth it. Also can't believe I got two of them :lol:
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That stable quest is one good quest. Well, for a not so useful building, the reward should be great!

Ozbenno said:
@FB, I think you may have had an event (cyclone, etc) that wiped away your infrastructure. Poor Alex probably had nothing to do with it.
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r_rolo1 said:
@ FeedBack

Yeah, spies can do that. In my first BTS game happened exactly the same :cry: ... I think that happens when a rival civ send a lot of spies to a city and spends almost all of their EP on us...Another reason for garrisonning spies....
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See? I'm not getting crazy (yet)! :lol:
He almost destroyed my city. I caught his spy and he takes a -2 with me for it???? He should be sorry for that!!!! :p


TheLastOne36 said:
Also did anyone notice in my save alex had no phalanx?
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I noticed this too. It was weird, but was easy.. I didn't even needed maces. The catapult support was barely needed too. One thing I noticed about the new siege is that you can promote your siege by giving enough collateral damage to all those archers. The catapult can only take down an archer to 0.8 str. If you throw another one, it'll withdraw and gain another XP. With LB's is not that easy (they will be 1.5 str), but still doable.

This round I'll download and take a better look at the saves... I'm so happy my wife gave me this Saturday to play civ! :lol:
 
Lastone, do you have currency? If you do you could just build gold in all your captured cities. Same in India, just take them all and build gold. waiting for maces and then upgrading will be a long exercise.

With all that land you could build to space when you econ recovers, or go domination at rifles/cannons.


FeedBack said:
One thing I noticed about the new siege is that you can promote your siege by giving enough collateral damage to all those archers. The catapult can only take down an archer to 0.8 str. If you throw another one, it'll withdraw and gain another XP. With LB's is not that easy (they will be 1.5 str), but still doable.
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The catapult still rocks in BTS eh? I see it as meaning that your attack melee can survive so much better because the defenders should always be at 25% strength. I think the stack still should be 75% seige, if possible.
 
Yes there are 3 techs i'd like to get, Currency, Banking and Printing Press. That'll help me alot.

i think i'll hold the conquesting for awhile to ease the econ.
 
TLO36: The age of the praetorian won't last for ever. If you've got CoL then whip courthouses, build FPalace, trade for currency if poss and build gold. If you're running positive at 0% research you're ok. Then stop and rebuild economy, with a massive empire you'll dominate the game.
 
A few people have hinted that it was a rush to get the 50 turns done by the deadline. Some feedback would be appreciated as to whether the deadline is too tight or the turns too many to fit in the deadline.

@FB, as for the Engineering bulb, I'm not sure. Was the extra movement (or pikes) crucial in the Greek re-unification wars? If not, I'd say the GE might have been better spent on another wonder. Again, at higher levels, a GE bulb can be of great benefit (as the Engineering/Chemistry/Steel path is often neglected by the AI).
 
The pace is definitely not too fast for me personally.
 
I don't think it's too fast, but then again, I'm not fighting any wars either.

Apologies for not being a part of the discussion this weekend, the PGA Tour is in town and I've been over there a lot. I do want to state that my last place position in points is solely because I refuse to trade for techs/research the cheap ones and therefore have an artifically low score. I'll make it up next round ;)
 
Ozbenno said:
A few people have hinted that it was a rush to get the 50 turns done by the deadline. Some feedback would be appreciated as to whether the deadline is too tight or the turns too many to fit in the deadline.
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No, in my case it was just one of those weeks. In fact I think a 7 day turnaround is a bit too long because I find it hard to remember what's going on in the game. Any longer would not work at all IMO, but 7 days is practical.

50 turns seems about right. I dont know that reducing it to 40 would make much difference as to playablility in the week.

Possibly with another version of this format where the victory condition is agreed on and it's really a competition, then 40 or even 30 might be better. For this learning/comparison approach, 50 is good IMO.


BTW r_rolo You will have a lot of commerce from the sea with your strat, but why did you avoid the gold on the land?
 
@ Ozbenno

The 7 day 50 turns pace is fine by me.

@ mice

I haven't avoided gold... I simply kept barb cities ( if you notice the city names I only built 1 city in the last turnset, the other ones were captured ). Barbs do know where the all the game resources are and normally place decent to optimum cities ( I'm a horrible dotmapper and barbs normally do a better work than me :cry: ).
Another thing: gold makes a lot of diference in the beggining of the game, but the imporance of 1 tile fades away during the game ( if it doesn't hold a strategic resource, of course ) and gold is one of those resources that I always think twice about it ( it always give a food deficit and normally borders or is in a desert zone... )
 
I found it hard to keep in pace, life really took over this last week, and the turns seem alot longer when your doing warmongering.

50 turns seems about right. I dont know that reducing it to 40 would make much difference as to playablility in the week.
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Actually to me, 40 instead of 50 would've made a huge difference for the better.

But i'm fine with the 7 days 50 turns thing. There is no need to change it.
 
Finally found a net connection, although not got time to read everything in enough detail.

Glad you like my SE, like to pass it off as my own, but it's blatantly stolen/learned from other peoples SGs and strategy articles. :)

On the colossus, it's one wonder I'm really shy of building normally. Most wonders offer a nice bonus, that kinda scales down as time goes by - Great Library for example - awesome when you get it, but by the time Sci Method rolls around, you probably have specialists all over the place? I find the colossus bonus amplifies ove time - as the cities get bigger and add libraries and markets/etc, when it expires my whole economy can sometimes really feel it?

With the slightly lower count of coastal cities here, it was just a nice bonus. With copper and the all important GM points it got really attractive.

Hope you're all having fun!

Will try that paint.net when I get home - thanks for that!
 
Ozbenno said:
A few people have hinted that it was a rush to get the 50 turns done by the deadline. Some feedback would be appreciated as to whether the deadline is too tight or the turns too many to fit in the deadline.
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I'm one of the people who had to rush to meet the deadline. However, I think the problem is with my schedule rather than the game's schedule. I'd vote to leave the deadline unchanged and at 50 turns.
 
50 Turns per week is ok so far.

Maybe discuss it again when we get closer to modern times and bigger empires.
 
Charles de Gaulle, 800 AD - 1400 AD:

Spoiler :
Well, I finished early, and it damn near finished early:

Goals for this turnset:

- Improve the economy.
- Fill up space on our continent.
- Prepare to spread Confu.
- Clear situation re: Alex/Gandhi/Buddhist block.

Turn 0: Monasteries and a market queued in Paris.

IBT: France is most powerful in the world. Looks like I can stop building military until macemen at least.

Turn 1: Gold miners near Orleans strike a motherload. Sell Literature to Gandhi for 230 gold.

Turn 2: Confu spread in Sparta. Two down, four to go.

Turn 3: Ancient techs sold to KK for pittens to try and gain diplomatic modifiers. Still at Annoyed because of -4 "You refused to stop trading with our worst enemies".

Turn 5: Machinery -> Optics. KK finally requests OB. Gandhi trades Philo for Feudalism + 60 gold. A galley carrying a missionary sets off to Mongolia to convert the heathens. Funnily enough I am Buddhist but can still vote myself head of the Confucian AP. First batch of macemen upgrades done.

IBT: Alex has voted for me in the AP vote! Promising...

Turn 6: Trade Const for COL with Washington.

Turn 8: Optics -> Paper.

Turn 9: Alex :ar15: :run: Gandhi. Send out maceman stack to join the fun.

Turn 12: Paper -> Edumacation. I'm waiting for Alex to ask me to join him for those diplo modifiers.

Turn 14: There it comes, and we're at war with India. I'm probably the only one who fraternizes with Alex instead of killing him. :lol: I can't see where Alex's main army is, all he has in India are lone phalanges. My spy disappeared somewhere, I did not get a message saying he'd been caught. Moai Statues built in Paris.

Turn 19: Confu has spread to KK by itself. Two to go.

Turn 20: Lyons completes The Parthenon(!). Gandhi has made peace with Alex? KK and Alex both vote for me in the AP.

Turn 21: Another Great Prophet is born. A Golden Age is activated. I suicide one catapult on Bombay and take it, losing two maces and an axe in the progress.

Turn 23: Education is in. Paris completes Hagia Sophia.

Turn 24: I get one combat away from capturing Bombay but then Gandhi enforces it and I run out of troops. Peace made, I can't take the city with the current force with Alex being so gunshy.

Turn 26: Confu spread to Hastings. Two left to go.

Turn 28: Great Scientists born, two turns away from Liberalism.

Turn 29: Alex wants MC and becomes Friendly when given it. Academy started in Paris. Confu spread in Chicago. One left, Mehmed the pagan.

Turn 30: Liberalism -> Optics. Nationalism picked as free tech. Iceball fishing village Chartres founded. Revolt to Caste System.

Turn 32: Optics -> PP.

Turn 34: Everyone except Gandhi is voting for me in the AP. A caravel is on its way to Mehmed. This game could end really quickly.

Turn 36: Forbidden Palace done in Orleans.

Turn 41: Taj Mahal complete in Paris and a GA starts again.

Turn 44: Confu spread in Samsun. Now we play the waiting game. Churchill and Alex bribed to friendly. It won't be enough so I need to spam cities to win.

Turn 45: PP -> Democracy. The first AP victory vote comes in.



Turn 46: Two votes from victory. [pissed]

Turn 47: Sankore done in Paris

Turn 48: Alex declares on Churchill. Play nice, boys.

The war between England and Greece will cost me one of their votes. I made a mistake spreading Confu to Gandhi too early, and my relations with Mehmed aren't more than Cautious either because he is the sole real Confucian. Still, I've got some land still to fill and cities to grow, maybe a quick victory is still possible.





 
Zara_mice 800 AD - 1400 AD

Ethiopia in turmoil.

Spoiler :
Lots of war this set.

Some wonders arrive throughout the turnset;









Missionary to Churchill



Only Khan and Washy to go, and the other civ.

Khan declares on Gandhi.



Hmm If Alex joins in I could backstab Alex, then join in on Khans fun. Khan could become a beast in this game if not checked though.

I suddenly notice that Washy is already christian (my apostolic religion). How did that happen? I founded Chrisianity and I'm far away from him.

Khan asks me to wage war on Gandhi. It's a good idea. Alex's land is still all jungle, but Gandhi's seems like ripe plucking. Holy city and all.
With Apostolic in I switch to non-state to keep neutral. I love that I still get the 2 hammers for each building even in non state. I will spam these buildings.

Now really unfocused, wonders in the capital, war with a small stack of cats and elephants, trying to settle another city, working some cottages and some farms. A real mess, but a fun game so far.





Bombay falls with an elephant and a crossbow doing the honours. I see a crossbow in Greece. He has iron.

New BTS thing and a first for me, declare on the infadels! Khan somehow got Christianity. how did Khan get Christianity? Trade routes with Churchill? It seems bizzare. Because Gandhi is the only known infidel we get to DoW him.
Of course I chose this resolution and voted yes. It succeeds.



The thing is to grab Delhi before anyone else does and the GLighthouse which is there. My elephant crossbow/cat stack will march on the capital quickly.

Back home , looking to settle gems and fish to the west, but a barb galley sinks my galley with a chariot on it. The city needs a defender because the Gwall doesnt work over there. Without a galley the settlers are stranded and have to hope that no barb comes to kill them.




Another artist appears :( I go for golden age, extended, to get Angkor built and knock out a few forges and crossbows.

Finally a trireme and and an archer arrive to sort out the barbs.
Found the city on the gems to the west.




The war against Gandhi is not going well, as my stack was too small and they are getting collateral. Change civics during the GA with no anarchy Bureaucracy/Caste/OReligion

Alex attacks Delhi too and reduces it from 8 defenders down to 1 archer. Thanks dude, I walk in with my crossbows. Hopefully that won't annoy him too much. He's on pleased but has a big army of cats and elephants by now.

Gandhi agrees to vassalisation



and Alex agrees to DoW me.



Well I forced him to war when he didn't want to, and then stole a capital from under his nose ,so...

I hold Dehli ,just. Tech to guilds to go gunpowder for the Oromo.


Khan declares on me. Dogpiled!. Backstabbed !!

Numbers are streaming from my cities to the choke point, and neither Khan nor Alex will talk. What I dont know is why there is no "Stop the war with Zara" option. I want to inflict "the world hates you" -5 happiness on the aggressors.

I wonder how they like attacking a civ with statue of Zeus, on my land against forts? If I can get them to defy a peace resolution it should hurt their econ nicely. I plan to let them feel the pain till they want to call it quits. My only fear is that they really can mount a naval invasion. Time will tell.
 

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I hit the limit of 16 images in this report so no smiley faces contained within :grrr

Spoiler :
Again the value of a week's break from the game means I come into this 50 turns with some new insights.

Health is the major late game problem, so I'm going to make a play for Hanging Gardens. I also want to try for Apostolic Palace, to stop the AI getting it.

Otherwise, complete the two quests and head towards Liberalism. Another 3-4 cities would be nice too.

After Banking, I go for Education (8 turns), therefore with a couple of turns left, I whip 1 forge and 1 stable.

Meet Mehmed, the last of the AI.

Forge quest, I take the free Engineer.



Gandhi builds Apostolic :grrr.

Stable quest, I take the extra food from stable.



The barbs save me from having to build a settler for here.



Get Hanging Gardens, which is somewhat of a relief after losing Apostolic.



I'm thinking about National Wonders as well and as I'm going space I need the capital to be a production powerhouse, so Moai Statues are built there.

Alex and Kublai decide to gang up on Gandhi. Gandhi builds the Statue of Zeus two turns later :lol.



Name says it all really.



I get the free Merchant from Economics, I've already got one and an artist lying about. Second Golden Age started.

Here's the capital with Colossus, Moai statues and Golden Age going on.



This is a pretty decent site actually.



This one good as well, notice I circumnavigate as well.



Another indifferent city.



I finish my GP golden age and build Taj Mahal with a GE for another.



Another Prophet appears and I use him for Taoist Shrine.

Delay Liberalism for ages (could keep going if I wanted to no-one has Paper yet) but decide on Assembly Line as getting factories up and countering the unhealthiness as early as possible is good.



I'm going to have to destroy my beloved Colossus and Great Library in the next 10 turns as after Railroad and Combustion I have no other techs to research, will probably get rid of Great Library first as I think I'm getting more benefit from Colossus.

I'm one turn from building Statue of Liberty (unaided by GE) in the capital. Here's what's happening in the rest of the empire.



Also, Alex's annoying city here started to steal tiles from Tarsus (had the rice and tile next to it flip, with 65% Greek ownership and it started to starve). So I built Hermatige, Confused Academy and Taj Mahal here. This city will flip to me and then it will burn :lol.



Alex/Kublai and Gandhi are having it out again, which is good as Alex has caught up to me in power and is annoyed. Some cannons and infantry will fix that.

Could easily just churn out the infantry for domination here but Corporations and Space will be investigated.

Major problem I see: Currently I have 4 happy faces in my major cities from elephants and fur (because of market). These will disappear as I tech into the SS techs. I need to find replacement happiness resources for these and the resources I am currently tading for using these. Broadway and Rock and Roll are the probable replacements (but only 2 happies).

Research: Banking, Theology (Prophet bulb), Printing Press, Education, Liberalism (all but last turn), Nationalism, Constitution, Democracy, Corporation, Construction (trade), Replaceable parts, Gunpowder, Engineering, Chemistry, Steam power, Steel, Liberalism, Assembly Line (from Liberalism), Railroad (not completed)


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/88650/MLG2_AD-1400.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
A quick word about the choice of opponents in the game. I had to hand pick the opponents so as to avoid doubling up leaders in the game. I held of until now as Mehmed was only discovered last round.

Gandhi was chosen as the tech hungry AI (runner up Mansu), Alex as the backstabbing crazy person (runner up Montezuma), Kublai as a cross between the two leaders above (runner up Qin), Mehmed for the exp/org traits as the AI tends to expand faster and harder in BtS. Washington and Churchill were fairly random picks.

I had no role to play in where the AI started on the map but was quite hoping that Alex would be closest.
 
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