Cultural Deity before 1000AD is possible

I don't think an earlier happiness cap-lessness will be enough to offset having to get 4 GS. I think that the real benefit would come if you were to stop research after researching Music (not bombing it, you're close enough that the free GA is worth more than the time it takes to research) for the GA and bulbing philo with a GS. Trade for CoL, Lite and hopefully CS, switch to Caste System and pacifism and crank artists. The idea behind this strategy would be to get to the maximum GPP output as soon as possible. Perhaps you would even want the capitol to be the GP farm (so that you could mapfinder and very high food start).

jesusin said:

I am not that kind of guy:
- I finish every game I start, so I waste the little time I have in hopeless games.
- I don’t have the patience to run MP all night and choose a perfect map.
- I hate strategies that depend on a resource or a WW.
- I am not a good enough player.

So I am trying to talk someone else into doing it. Are you the one, LC?

Click to expand...

Lol. Let's compare...:

- I quit almost every game I start, because I hate playing on after the first idoitic blunder I make. You know, like forgetting to switch a citizen after cultural expansion...
- I don't have a computer to run MP all night, but I wish I did.
- I love strategizing.
- I am not as good a player as you.

Oh yeah, one more:
- I don't have the time.

and:
-I never play cultural

and:
-I was hoping the next SG would be cultural so we could benefit from your encyclopaedic wisdom!

Shoot the Moon said:

Perhaps you would even want the capitol to be the GP farm (so that you could mapfinder and very high food start).

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The good thing about a GPFarm capital is you can hire an incredible number of artists, thanks to MP. The problem is your research output is severely damaged, so getting first to Liberalism is next to impossible.

LowtherCastle said:

-I never play cultural
and:
-I was hoping the next SG would be cultural

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Be careful! I had never played cultural in previous versions of Civ. I played just one game in a Gauntlet and I got hooked up forever.

I have been working on a new idea this days. It is based on Xin Yu's concern for happiness. It is true that there is a time midgame when your growth and the number of cottages you can work and the number of artists you can hire are limited by happiness.

The idea is the "backwards Parthenon": stone start, Worker-Warrior-Settler-Pyramids, Masonry-Wheel-Pottery-Writing-Alpha. Let the capital pop a single GE and use him for Parthenon. Addopt Representation.

I have tried 10 starts following this idea, with Vanilla Elizabeth:
- 4 of them AI built Pyramids.
- 1 of them I built Pyramids and Parthenon.
- 5 of them I built Pyramids but the GE was too late for the Parthenon.

Out of the 6 games with Pyramids I was:
- hopelessly behind in tech by the time I got Alpha in 1 of them.
- dowed around 1000BC in 5 of them.

I had never been dowed so often before. I think the problem is that you put your hammers into a WW, so you don't churn settlers as fast as usual, so you are even weaker in the powergraph. When I have pursued other WW, like Parthenon, I normally got two settlers before the WW.

So, Pyramids->GE->Parthenon doesn't look feasible. I have had a 1365AD finish, though, so Pyramids aren't so bad.

My conclusion is that you can get Pyramids and play a nornal cultural game afterwards (oh, Godotnut, how hard was I against your Pyramids two years ago!). The disadvantage is that your 3rd and 4th cities are delayed, you get a GE instead of a GA and you run the risk of being dowed. The advantage is that you get to grow bigger cities midgame, a few additional beakers and a dozen cpt in the capital.
All in all, too risky a strategy for me. If someone is patient enough to try once and again till he's not dowed and gets both Pyramids and Parthenon, a HOF top game can be gotten.

Now, the details about the 1365AD game:

Vanilla, Elizabeth, Small. Pigs+Stone+Ivory+3FP start.
4 cities, 6 workers, 2 religions, 4 cathedrals, 18 cottages, 15GP (1GE, 2GS, 12GA).
2nd city: 8 artists GPFarm, only 1 hill.
3rd city: cottages and later 3 artists too; only 2 hills.
Auxiliary city: 4 artists.

Worker-Warrior-Settler-Pyramids, Masonry-Wheel-Pottery-Writing-Alpha-Col-CS-bulb Philo+Educ-Liber+free PP-trade for Natio quite late-representation beakers get me Economy and too late to matter Corporation.
Tao failed by 7 turns, Parthenon lost before I finished Pramids. GE used to build NE in the hammerless GPFarm.
1AD stats: 175bpt, researching Liber, 8 cottages, 64GPPpt.
200AD: Liber-PP, 100% culture for 330cpt.
1000AD stats: 600-150-250cpt, 18cottages, 200GPPpt.
Earlier cottages, earlier Hermitage, a third religion and a couple of additional hills could have gotten me to the HOF, but not to a 1100AD finish.

jesusin said:

I have been working on a new idea this days. It is based on Xin Yu's concern for happiness. It is true that there is a time midgame when your growth and the number of cottages you can work and the number of artists you can hire are limited by happiness.

Click to expand...

Can't you just run HR and build warriors in 1-2 turns? If the problems in the GP farm you can move them from the cap so you don't have to stop building NE or whatever. Then you delete them when you don't need the so you don't pay the pacifism penalty. Seems a lot cheaper than the Pyramids.

FiveAces said:

Can't you just run HR and build warriors in 1-2 turns? If the problems in the GP farm you can move them from the cap so you don't have to stop building NE or whatever. Then you delete them when you don't need the so you don't pay the pacifism penalty. Seems a lot cheaper than the Pyramids.

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I am always reluctant to build "useless" things, specially if I have to delete them later. But your suggestion is very good. "Wasting" a few hammers in exchange for working another cottage or hiring another artist sounds like a good exchange.

I used world builder to build a perfect starting spot (hills/plain city spot; 2 golds on hills/grass, and one wheat on grass). Played Saladin. After several trys, now by turn 26 I get alphabet. Tech sequence mining-agri-pottery-writing-alpha. Building sequence worker-warrior-(wait till size 3) settler. Worker improvement sequence gold-wheat-gold. With a wheat the city can work on two golds with no food problem. 2-3 turns can be saved if mining or agri is a starting tech. 1 turn may be saved if leader is financial. That takes to turn 23 for alphabet.

Xin Yu said:

I used world builder to build a perfect starting spot (hills/plain city spot; 2 golds on hills/grass, and one wheat on grass). Played Saladin. After several trys, now by turn 26 I get alphabet. Tech sequence mining-agri-pottery-writing-alpha. Building sequence worker-warrior-(wait till size 3) settler. Worker improvement sequence gold-wheat-gold. With a wheat the city can work on two golds with no food problem. 2-3 turns can be saved if mining or agri is a starting tech. 1 turn may be saved if leader is financial. That takes to turn 23 for alphabet.

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That's not the "perfect spot". Try a gold/hills/plains/river, or stone or marble.

And why wheat? Corn/flood plains!

And don't forget to put a Deer/Forest,

Shouldn't you use Gandhi for a cultural victory? I always assumed the extra worker speed would more than offset the starting techs (I don't even remember what Saladin's techs are).

Wastin Time: You are absolutely right! A stone or marble, or course! However the gold/hills/plain/river is a bit too much since I already put two golds next to the city.

Shyuhe: Gandhi's worker only moves faster, not works faster Therefore it's not a huge advantage.

Xin Yu said:

Wastin Time: You are absolutely right! A stone or marble, or course! However the gold/hills/plain/river is a bit too much since I already put two golds next to the city.

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Wouldn't grassland gems be better than gold, since it is only 1 less commerce and is self-supporting with regard to food? Thus, _more_ excess food can grow the city and/or support artists rather than those food sinking gold mines.

Two gold is not too many! You are being too conservative. Why not just use the best that map finder can provide? Not sure what to tell map finder to save? Tell it to save every map and you can sort the maps by resource later.

Xin Yu said:

Shyuhe: Gandhi's worker only moves faster, not works faster Therefore it's not a huge advantage.

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This is not true. The fast worker both moves 50% faster and works 50% faster.

<Begin EDIT>

Sorry, my statement above is wrong. I could have saved everyone a bit of time and misinformation by doing a simple search for "Fast Worker" in the forums:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=167546

<End EDIT>

Unrelated (to fast worker) comment:

Gandhi is an especially good choice for Civ4 Warlords with his Philosophical attribute, but in Civ4 Vanilla he has Industrious which isn't very effective in getting World Wonders at Deity level. BTW, C4WL Saladin's Protective attribute is Culturally useless (though it may help with preventing attacks).

In terms of attributes alone, C4WL Gandhi == C4 Saladin. Both are Philosophical and Spiritual. So, in the context of a Cultural Win, reference to playing Saladin usually implies Civ4 Vanilla and reference to playing Gandhi usually implies Civ4 Warlords.

Sun Tsu Wu

I understood Fast Workers to only move 50% faster, not work faster.

Shoot the Moon said:

I understood Fast Workers to only move 50% faster, not work faster.

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Fast Worker movement is 3, whereas Worker movement is 2.

It has been my understanding that both Fast Workers and Workers consume movement when working, so a Fast Worker should do 50% more work than a Worker.

<Begin EDIT>

Sorry, my statement above is wrong. I could have saved everyone a bit of time and misinformation by doing a simple search for "Fast Worker" in the forums:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=167546

<End EDIT>

The best way to resolve this question is a carefully measured contest between a Fast Worker and a Worker. They should start in the tile they will work on. The assigned task should take the Worker 6 turns. If the Fast Worker takes 4 turns, then the Fast Worker does work 50% faster. Otherwise, if the Fast Worker takes 6 turns, the fast Worker only moves 50% faster and works just as fast as a Worker.

Either way, it is cool the way a Fast Worker can enter a Forest and immediately start building a road. For the special case of building a road in forest tiles, the Fast Worker is actually twice as fast as a Worker when both movement and work are taken into account.

Sun Tzu Wu

Different maps:

Has anyone tried a map other than Inland Sea?

I just tried Ice Age, but the only good city sites seem to be the capitals, so this map may be more suitable for an early Axeman/Quechua rush followed by an Artist rush.

Military option:

We do want to consider using an early war to catch up with and surpass the Deity AIs, right? Sometimes, it costs less to capture a city than to build a city. Sometimes, it even costs less to capture a Worker than to build a Worker.

When planning a military route toward Legendary Culture, using the maximum number of Opponents may be wise. That way two Opponents can give up their capitals (and maybe a secondary city each) and there's still plenty of Opponents to trade with.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Fast Worker movement is 3, whereas Worker movement is 2.

It has been my understanding that both Fast Workers and Workers consume movement when working, so a Fast Worker should do 50% more work than a Worker.

Click to expand...

this is incorrect - they use worker turns, not movement. On quick though this can still be pretty huge since it can enter forest or a hill and start working at the same time, with build times of 5 or less turns this makes a noticeable difference...

ori said:

this is incorrect - they use worker turns, not movement. On quick though this can still be pretty huge since it can enter forest or a hill and start working at the same time, with build times of 5 or less turns this makes a noticeable difference...

Click to expand...

Sorry, my original statement regarding the Fast Worker is wrong. I could have saved everyone a bit of time and misinformation by doing a simple search for "Fast Worker" in the forums:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=167546

Sun Tzu Wu

There are some questions regarding the 'perfect city spot' issue.

1) Of course plains/hills/marble or plains/hills/stone is the best, however I remember that marble and stone cannot be next to a river. This means I need to put extra effort in order to link the city to a river (not that much of an effort though).

2) Regarding using gem on grass to replace gold on hills: Aren't gems always on jungle square? If that's true then it's not a viable option. However if it's not, then actually I prefer to work on a grass instead of a hill (except when playing India) -- will get the square mined one turn earlier. On the other hand, a gold on grass/hills has one food.

3&#65289;If I really don't care about 'natually generated map', then using the world builder I can put floodland on grass and get 5 food without doing anything. (Randomly generate map always puts floodland on desert).

Gems will appear on grass if it's in the bfc of your capital. Otherwise it will most likely be covered with jungle.

Xin Yu said:

There are some questions regarding the 'perfect city spot' issue.

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The perfect capital location would depend greatly on the proposed plan for achieving a Cultural Win. We need a huge food surplus to quickly grow the capital to its happiness limit and work both high hammer tiles to build Culture buildings (except World Wonders - see explanation below) and high commerce tiles to research faster than the AIs. (After Code of Laws/Caste System we switch as many citizens as possible to Artists.)

So, we need high food, high hammer and high commerce tiles.

It would be difficult to beat the AIs to most World Wonders at Deity level, so the "building World Wonders approach" to gaining Culture should be shunned at Deity level.

Xin Yu said:

1) Of course plains/hills/marble or plains/hills/stone is the best, however I remember that marble and stone cannot be next to a river. This means I need to put extra effort in order to link the city to a river (not that much of an effort though).

Click to expand...

Plains/hills/marble or plains/hills/stone is best with plains/hill/forest for a Quechua rush at Marathon speed. I don't see how these tiles help much with a Cultural goal, except that in addition to copper, these resources would together all double the speed of constructing Cathedrals of all Religions.

Plains/hills/marble or plains/hills/stone is usually used as the site of the capital (or other city) for the 3 hammers it provides. That's two more hammers than any non-resource flatland tile and one more hammer than plains/hill.

Xin Yu said:

2) Regarding using gem on grass to replace gold on hills: Aren't gems always on jungle square? If that's true then it's not a viable option. However if it's not, then actually I prefer to work on a grass instead of a hill (except when playing India) -- will get the square mined one turn earlier. On the other hand, a gold on grass/hills has one food.

Click to expand...

No. In fact, map finder found one starting map with 3 grassland gems tiles using Small Ice_Age in just 4 hours of searching on a 1.4 Ghz Athlon system.
MF also found a few 2 grassland gems starting maps as well.

Xin Yu said:

3&#65289;If I really don't care about 'natually generated map', then using the world builder I can put floodland on grass and get 5 food without doing anything. (Randomly generate map always puts floodland on desert).

Click to expand...

Using a starting map that doesn't meet HOF guidelines is at best an academic exercise. I can understand building a starting map that is HOF valid with the exception of using Map Builder, but I see no possible point to using MB to add grassland floodplains (or other impossible tiles or tile combinations), since it is neither HOF compliant and Civ4 would never generate it in a starting map.

Sun Tsu Wu