Clash of War(Peace)mongers on Deity - BTS

Really good (and versatile) starting position. Could cottage here too if you're into it. High on food, maybe I'll learn how to use the whip properly this game.^^
My deity record isn't very impressive, but hopefully I can put up a fight or maybe squeeze a win out of this one. Either way I'm looking forward to playing it and possibly learn something from the more experienced deity players. I lose more often than I win at this level (the traits for this game help though).

/settling in place
 
ABigCivFan said:
Human:
Fred (Org/Phi)


This should be a good one.




Let me know what you guys think.
Click to expand...

Downside on pang/balanced maps, some bad luck geographic/diplo wise can lose you the game.

I love org/phil combo as well. Seems like a good start position. Good food, some hammers and some early commerce from flood and river side plain hill. Settle in place and I hope for another hill on the east side.

Agriculture-bw-ah seems like an obvious opening.

Looks like an interesting game, consider me a reader.
 
4000BC Berlin Settled.




Res: Agri-AH-BW

Build: worker-worror-barracks(partial to grow)

depending on the surrounding map, I am thinking given high food, grow capital to max get 2 workers out, build some escouting solders and spam settlers.

moving sount 1 south, reveal a hut.

Pup hut for BW!!! not back for 1 turn of work.




Conitnue as planned, scout moving clockwise around capital, poped a 2nd scout and up North in the tundra lands, it poped IW at 3400BC!



Spoiler :

This really helps as our capital is not high in Research as a Unit/worker/settler factory. And we found Iron in capital BFC. very Lucky so far.


I build some CR axeman and had so much trainning on Barbs 1 turned CR3!! open up HE. They will be great to use on Barb cities if any.

Map at 2160BC, where to settle?

Spoiler :

2 scout work wonders, here is the well-explored map at 2160BC, I see 3 gold bars all around, they should be our priorities.



Since we are up north, our neighbors should be either south or East, so I like the spot to our south-East to claim Gold/Copper/Cow/Wheat

I am sending an Axe direct East to exlore the 2nd Gold/Copper/Flood spot, my scout was killed there with heavy barb feast.

Here is the settle order I see to claim 2 golds and serve as good blocking cities.



 
I played on for a bit just see what would happen, settling 8 cities and running a strong Econ. I switched to the only religion on my conti, gifted 2+ resources to each AI, score is high, still, got dogpiled by Boudica and Hannibal, look:



These guys can really fight, with their tech advantage, it was impossible.

I will try again from 2200BC save, i am thinking what I could possilbly do to improve our chances:

1. Rush Hannibal at all cost to slow him down since he is our blocking neighbor

2. Rush to Fedalism for early Longbow

With these guys they will not let you sit and build peacefully, so we have to do everything perfectly in order to stand a chance.
 
Seems my start was a little luckier than yours. I haven't gotten further than 675 BC, but in my shadow game the khmer guy has his own religion and Hannibal/Boudica a different one. Hopefully they'll leave me be a couple of more turns. Very satisfied with my cities and overall expansion so far. Got a lot of gold capturing barbarian cities (geez, they had like 4 of them next to my border before i had my 2nd city planted. Barbarians sure also pick up their game on deity). I didn't get iron Working from the northern hut though, popped gold instead. ;\

Edit: Seems my instincts were spot on, Boudica decided to bully the Khmer instead of me.
fred,%20deity,%20boudica.JPG
 
i found deity impossible without AI's fighting each other, if your continent has only one religion then it's usually game over.

ABigCivFan said:
I played on for a bit just see what would happen, settling 8 cities and running a strong Econ. I switched to the only religion on my conti, gifted 2+
resources to each AI, score is high, still, got dogpiled by
Boudica and Hannibal, look:



These guys can really fight, with their tech advantage, it was impossible.

I will try again from 2200BC save, i am thinking what I could possilbly do to improve our chances:

1. Rush Hannibal at all cost to slow him down since he is our blocking neighbor

2. Rush to Fedalism for early Longbow

With these guys they will not let you sit and build peacefully, so we have to do everything perfectly in order to stand a chance.
Click to expand...
 
Rusten said:
Seems my start was a little luckier than yours. I haven't gotten further than 675 BC, but in my shadow game the khmer guy has his own religion and Hannibal/Boudica a different one. Hopefully they'll leave me be a couple of more turns. Very satisfied with my cities and overall expansion so far. Got a lot of gold capturing barbarian cities (geez, they had like 4 of them next to my border before i had my 2nd city planted. Barbarians sure also pick up their game on deity). I didn't get iron Working from the northern hut though, popped gold instead. ;\

Edit: Seems my instincts were spot on, Boudica decided to bully the Khmer instead of me.
fred,%20deity,%20boudica.JPG
Click to expand...

I re-played the game since 4000BC, this time i did not "Block", instead, settled tightly around capital, claming the Gold/Fish/Copper city first, then captured Barb Horse/sheep city, I had much much better research rates this time and keeping relatively close to guys on my conti.

The problem with "blocking" on this map is if I spread out too thin too early, I will never have enough military to protect multiple fronts against multiple AI threats. Instead build a tight pocket of cities with good protection and low city Maint, and we will see with this new strat. As long as I am not fighting AIs with 1 higher era military units, I should be ok.

Rushing to Feudal for Longbow is prob a good choice as "Defensive Killing" is key to neutralize AI bonues, the AIs still do not do what human do well at walking around stronghold cities and mass pillage.

Not enough good hill city spots for us also.
 
ABigCivFan said:
I re-played the game since 4000BC, this time i did not "Block", instead, settled tightly around capital, claming the Gold/Fish/Copper city first, then captured Barb Horse/sheep city, I had much much better research rates this time and keeping relatively close to guys on my conti.

The problem with "blocking" on this map is if I spread out too thin too early, I will never have enough military to protect multiple fronts against multiple AI threats. Instead build a tight pocket of cities with good protection and low city Maint, and we will see with this new strat. As long as I am not fighting AIs with 1 higher era military units, I should be ok.

Rushing to Feudal for Longbow is prob a good choice as "Defensive Killing" is key to neutralize AI bonues, the AIs still do not do what human do well at walking around stronghold cities and mass pillage.

Not enough good hill city spots for us also.
Click to expand...

I'm still doing ok in my game. Getting about ~500 science per turn without representation as of 1170 (some cities producing research though) and on par in tech/land/overall with most civs (met everyone except huayna which I have mapped out so I know he's not too big). The problem however is that Hannibal has gone crazy. I didn't block him off to the east of the continent which let him build some extra cities. He also has incredible land (grassland rivers with plenty of banana and sugar) which he has cottaged and is getting a ton of commerce for. I just don't have the confidence to attack him, maybe I have too much respect for the difficulty level, but he just seems so big and has so many units. I regret not going for him in the BCs, everyone is afraid of his "military might" by now. Boudica is friendly with him cuz of religion and the Khmer are vassals by now. Maybe Catherine can be a potential military ally, but cross-continental military warfare isn't exactly the AIs best side. The map type could be my doom at this point. That's my own fault though, I didn't concentrate enough and ended turns too fast. Besides I'm more used to maps where everyone's on the same land so I didn't see it coming. Most likely going to have to restart unless a "defensive warfare" with Riflemen (which I'm about to get) vs Hannibal could lessen his economic advantage.

Keep an eye on Hannibal during your regame, cuz he will have a lot of available land if you're being more defensive in your settling. He boomed out of nowhere and grew at a faster rate than I've ever seen before in the ADs. Maybe a chariot+axeman rush is doable? His land is quite far away though and I'm not sure how well that strat works on deity, rarely tried it.

I started with the copper/fish/gold city in my game too. Mainly because I didn't pop Iron Working from the hut, so I was desperate for a "safe", fogbusted source of metal not knowing the capital had iron, but I think it's a good starting city regardless. Coastal fish+riverside bronze and gold is very helpful for research early on.
 
Rusten said:
I'm still doing ok in my game. Getting about ~500 science per turn without representation as of 1170 (some cities producing research though) and on par in tech/land/overall with most civs (met everyone except huayna which I have mapped out so I know he's not too big). The problem however is that Hannibal has gone crazy. I didn't block him off to the east of the continent which let him build some extra cities. He also has incredible land (grassland rivers with plenty of banana and sugar) which he has cottaged and is getting a ton of commerce for. I just don't have the confidence to attack him, maybe I have too much respect for the difficulty level, but he just seems so big and has so many units. I regret not going for him in the BCs, everyone is afraid of his "military might" by now. Boudica is friendly with him cuz of religion and the Khmer are vassals by now. Maybe Catherine can be a potential military ally, but cross-continental military warfare isn't exactly the AIs best side. The map type could be my doom at this point. That's my own fault though, I didn't concentrate enough and ended turns too fast. Besides I'm more used to maps where everyone's on the same land so I didn't see it coming. Most likely going to have to restart unless a "defensive warfare" with Riflemen (which I'm about to get) vs Hannibal could lessen his economic advantage.

Keep an eye on Hannibal during your regame, cuz he will have a lot of available land if you're being more defensive in your settling. He boomed out of nowhere and grew at a faster rate than I've ever seen before in the ADs. Maybe a chariot+axeman rush is doable? His land is quite far away though and I'm not sure how well that strat works on deity, rarely tried it.

I started with the copper/fish/gold city in my game too. Mainly because I didn't pop Iron Working from the hut, so I was desperate for a "safe", fogbusted source of metal not knowing the capital had iron, but I think it's a good starting city regardless. Coastal fish+riverside bronze and gold is very helpful for research early on.
Click to expand...

Exactly the same problem, it is just a matter of time when he unleash on you.

This is what i think we need to do:

1. After Alphebat, trade as many techs with him

2. Have at least 3 cities build non-stop military, Axe/Swords/Spears later Longbows.

3. Set up a forward base city close to him, ideally on a hill.

4. Declare war on him as soon as you can and let him come to you, then systematically reduce his SODs just like my first Clash game where My hill city held off 5 warmongers simultaniously.


The advantage of this strat is you are much closer to your home base where you can readily reinforce; also your forward base city will have walls and CG+Drill longbows to take full advantage of the powerful cumulative defensive bonus. Have couple of spies stationed near border to monitor his stacks movement. Timing is very important and the 1st GG instructor is very important as you need him for Shock Melee and CGII longbows to vastly improve your kill/loss ratio.

how is the power curve like in your game?
 
***Spoilers***



My game started with BW as everyone's, however I got Masonry from a hut a bit later.

I jumped on the opportunity and built the GW.

Then I concentrated on developing my capital as a cottage/academy combo, its land can sustain some 15ish cottages.

First GP popped was a spy (big surprise), settled. The second however was a scientist for the academy. Bureaucracy followed, at the expense of the literature beelining.

Relations were good but S-dude had "too much on his hands". The AI is in the habit of deciding on a war and preparing for dozens of turns regardless of future improved relations.

To beat this deadlock I preemtively declared on the Khmer. I barely had any units, but by the time he'd managed to get his SoDs to me negotiations were to be enabled again. Once enabled, beg for peace and live happily ever after.


Empire a couple of turns after declaration

warstarts.jpg




Pay for peace

tricked.jpg




SoD of 45 tricked units

warends.jpg
 
Feel free to play from save. Chances are this game ends with AI culture vic on the other continent. The clock is ticking.

IMO a replay strat worth checking is moving starting settler close to Hannibal and rushing him early. Then block the other two AIs in chokish mid-continent, backfill north, and hope for the best.
 
Unconquered Sun said:
***Spoilers***

My game started with BW as everyone's, however I got Masonry from a hut a bit later.

I jumped on the opportunity and built the GW.

Then I concentrated on developing my capital as a cottage/academy combo, its land can sustain some 15ish cottages.

First GP popped was a spy (big surprise), settled. The second however was a scientist for the academy. Bureaucracy followed, at the expense of the literature beelining.

Relations were good but S-dude had "too much on his hands". The AI is in the habit of deciding on a war and preparing for dozens of turns regardless of future improved relations.

To beat this deadlock I preemtively declared on the Khmer. I barely had any units, but by the time he'd managed to get his SoDs to me negotiations were to be enabled again. Once enabled, beg for peace and live happily ever after.


Pay for peace

tricked.jpg
Click to expand...


Interesting Gambit. His SOD looks quite strong and you can not survive that if he attacks with that. I am surprised that he did not even ask for a city for peace. When the AIs have lots power advantage on you they typically ask for redicoulous prices for peace. You have nice science rate at 75AD point.
 
ABigCivFan said:
how is the power curve like in your game?
Click to expand...

A disaster!
Power graph:
Spoiler :
power%20graph%20clash0000.JPG


Gold graph:
Spoiler :
gold%20graph%20clash0000.JPG


Prod graph:
Spoiler :
prod%20graph%20clash0000.JPG


12 turns left until Rifling, maybe less assuming I can trade replaceable parts around. My production is high, so maybe, just maybe I can do something with those riflemen.:cringe:

Edit:
ABigCivFan said:
4. Declare war on him as soon as you can and let him come to you, then systematically reduce his SODs just like my first Clash game where My hill city held off 5 warmongers simultaniously.
Click to expand...

Maybe that could work, but IIRC that first clash was in Warlords where the AIs use less siege and collateral damage. Or maybe not? I never played much Warlords, only got into civ 4 hardcore at the release of BTS.
 
ABigCivFan said:
Interesting Gambit. His SOD looks quite strong and you can not survive that if he attacks with that. I am surprised that he did not even ask for a city for peace. When the AIs have lots power advantage on you they typically ask for redicoulous prices for peace. You have nice science rate at 75AD point.
Click to expand...

He didn't because we have no borders. Had it been Hannibal, he would've. Still, better a border city than the whole game.
 
Seems you guys did a good job staying alive until the ADs :) Hannibal seems more peaceful in your games so far.

I did everything I can to please him, the only negative mod is "closed border sparks attention". Did you do anything special with him to having him not back-stabbing you?

Also Rustan, dealing with large stacks of AI siege, how about having some suicide Horse archers for flanking attacks. 3-4 flanking HAs can deal siganificant damange to a stack of siege. Also have some Drill2 Longbows with CG2 longbows for defense.
 
Han refuses to backstab AIs when pleased. In my experience, he's unlikely to attack a human too when pleased. But there's always the issue of when exactly he decided on the war.
 
Oh, and one other thing: what's with 3.13 resource negotiations? The AIs act insane, refusing 2 to 1 deals only to propose a 1-1 at their turn.
 
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